ATP Science

Episode 105 – KETO; fact, Fat Loss, and Fraud




In today’s podcast Matt, Steve, and I discuss in depth the truth about Ketogenic Diets and supplements.  We cover the good and the bad in today’s marketplace, and how some companies are stooping to extremely low and dangerous levels with their fraudulent and deceptive claims, and are peddling all sorts of information to sell you the magic bullet.


Steve and Matt breakdown the research and expose the dangers associated with many of the ingredients being marketed today.





Ketogenic Diets – [00:54:45]

Steroid Use – [01:00:19]

Lyme Disease – [01:08:08]




**This information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition and is for information purposes only.  Please discuss any information in this podcast with your health care professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle**


Welcome to Episode 105.

Matt: Struth!

Jeff: Keto; Facts, Fat Loss and Fraud.

Steve: Mm.

Matt: Ooh.

Jeff: Matt, we’re getting a bit onto the conspiracy theories at the moment, but this not so much about the establishment, this is more about what is being marketed out there.  Now, a few years back, and I know we’re relatively cynical of some of the TV shows that are on mainstream TV like Doctor Oz, what’s he Mehmet?

Matt: Yeah, some guy called Mehmet.

Jeff: And look, not everything that he did was bad.  There were some segments that were good and shed a lot of light on some important things.  But, I think it’s when those conflicts came out and there was the Mexican jumping bean and all sorts of real science got thrown out the window for the love of money and making a buck.  There are some great companies out there who make some great products and they deserve your money.

Matt: They deserve to have a go, they deserve to have a chance to be used and be heard through the noise.

Jeff: Yeah.  Matt, today we’re cycling around a little bit, and we’ve spoken about Ketogenesis and Ketos before, and we’ve talked a little bit about Keto supplements such as the Raspberry Ketones, and we’ll probably highlight that a little bit again today, and some of the negative associations with Keto supplements when you’re taking in direct Ketones, especially from the Raspberries.  I know Steve you’ve brushed up, so for people listening to us for the first time we can get into that.

Matt: Don’t worry too much about Raspberries, they’re gone now.

Jeff: Yeah, but we’re just going to cycle back and talk about that, but we’re going to delve a bit further into it.


But, let me get right back to the start, Matt, for people who don’t know what Ketosis is or don’t know what a Keto Diet is, let’s get into it.  Matt, what is Ketosis?

Matt: Ketosis is when you have Ketone bodies showing up in your Urine or on your Breath or in your Sweat and you measure them on some sort of a device, and it tells you that you are excreting Ketones, and that process is known as Ketosis.

Jeff: So, what is a Ketogenic Diet?

Matt: A Ketogenic Diet is when you manipulate your Protein, Carbs, and Fats to get your body to make Ketones out of either your stored Body Fat or the Fats you’ve just eaten.

Jeff: So, what is Ketosis from Ketone supplements?  I know we’ve spoken a bit about Raspberry Ketones before, but there are some other ones as well.  So, what is that?

Matt: Have a look at Ketosis.  If you are excreting Ketones those Ketones could have been made from the Fat in your body and you’ll wee them out and they show up on the Keto sticks as Ketones.  Or, they could be made from the Fats you’ve eaten, so if you’ve got a High Fat Diet you convert that Fat into Ketones and you wee them out, or you can drink Ketones and then you wee them out and they show up on a Keto stick.

Ketosis from Ketone supplements has nothing to do with Ketogenic Diets.  So, a Ketone supplement has nothing to do with a Ketogenic process within your body, because a Ketogenic process in your body is making Ketones out of your Body Fat for Fat Loss or making Ketones out of the Fat you’ve eaten for the purpose of having blood levels of Ketones because Ketones are a good fuel for your Brain.

Jeff: Now, we hear a lot of crazy things here all the time, and typically they’re fads and they spring up and all of sudden they die.  This is one that’s been building for a while now, and there seems to be quite a few companies out there saying that Ketone supplements as a fantastic way to lose weight, and we want to set the record straight with a lot of that.

Now, I wanted to clear our conflict of interest here, because a lot of people have come back to us and said, “AMP, what’s it good for?” “Well, people take it for Fat Loss, they take it for Fasted Cardio, it’s got all the Omegas and it’s got some other really cool things re Oxygenation and Grip strength and that sort of stuff.  But, a lot of people take it when they’re on a Ketogenic Diet because it helps the body to produce –

Matt: It makes Ketones, because it’s a Ketogenic supplement, not a Ketone supplement.

Jeff: So, there are no Ketones, there’s no Raspberry Ketones, there are no other forms of Ketones in there?

Matt: No, and the reason is because a Ketogenic Diet, or a Ketogenic supplement will block Starvation Mode, it will increase the release of Free Fatty Acids and it will increase Fat Burning, and that makes Ketones, and then you wee out those Ketones.


So, you can either do a Ketogenic Diet to strip your body of Fat, or you can do a Ketogenic Diet to load your body with Fat, depending on what your goal is.  Do you want to be Burning Fat to get rid of that Fat and in the process of that you’re making Ketones?  Or, do you want lots of Ketones in your body to be used as a fuel for your Brain and for your Muscle?  But that has nothing to do with Fat Loss.

What the difference is, is a Ketogenic supplement, or a Ketogenic Diet will make sure you don’t go into Starvation Mode for starters.  It will stimulate the release of Free Fatty Acids from your storage sites, so it will remove the Fat off your Hips and your Bum and that sort of stuff, as a source of fuel.  As it Burns that Fat it makes Ketones and those Ketones are also used as a source of fuel, but they’re also an indication that your body is starving.  So, if you build up too many Ketones a message goes back to your body saying, “Go into Starvation Mode, you are starving.  You’ve been Burning too much Fat for too long, you obviously do not have enough food available.”

So, the Ketones come through and trigger Starvation Mode, and Starvation Mode shuts down the release of further Fatty Acids and holds onto the Fat and it slows down Fat Burning because it doesn’t want you to many Ketones, because if you get too many Ketones they destroy your Kidneys.

Jeff: That’s right, that’s Ketoacidosis, correct?

Matt: Yeah.  So, a Ketogenic Diet or a Ketogenic supplement will work on stimulating Fat Burning processes with the goal of making – well, not even the goal, the goal is to strip Fat from the body.  So, a Ketogenic Diet for Fat Loss will drive all these processes to Burn Fat, and the end result of that is Ketones.  Whereas, a Ketone supplement will put in Ketones, send a message back to your body saying, “Don’t make anymore, we’ve got too many,” and as soon as you put the Ketones in through negative feedback it goes back and tells the body, “The Ketones that you were making from Burning Fat plus the Ketones you’ve just drunk has tricked the body into thinking you’re in trouble.  Your Renal Acid load is picking up, you’re obviously in Starvation Mode, you’re possibly Burning too much Fat which we can’t have you doing because we’re an adaptive organism.”  It sends a message back saying, “Starvation Mode; shut down your Metabolism, slow down your Basal Metabolic Rate, slow down the release of Fatty Acids and slow down Fat Burning to stop making Ketones, because I can’t stop you from drinking them.”

Jeff: One of the things you’re passionate about, Matt, and when we first started we were talking about causes that we were interested in, and you were talking about the sea and the plastic bags.  I don’t know if people know this, but in the middle of the Pacific there’s land masses the size of Tasmania, the size of Texas, that are clogging up the Pacific, and the way the water flows and all the rest of it it’s all just accumulates in this area, which is horrific.


Steve: Wow!

Jeff: You always said that was something you were passionate about, Matt, about recycling and ecology, looking after the marine life, and two thirds of our Oxygen comes out of the ocean from coral and things like that.  It’s a great cause.  When you were explaining to me this process you used that analogy, so do you want to explain that?

Matt: So, my goal is to remove the plastic from the ocean.  To achieve that goal, I’ve got to do something with the plastic, so my silly idea, and there’s probably better ones, was to make it into plastic bricks that we can use to build homes for the homeless.  In order to clear the plastic from the ocean I would have to stimulate some sort of sales of these plastic bricks, or work out a goal for these plastic bricks.  So, I build up some hype about these plastic bricks.  The problem that I can see with these, and the analogy here is, if I build up enough hype over these plastic bricks people are going to be wanting these plastic bricks.

My goal is to clear the ocean, so next thing you know, there’s all this hype, all the excitement over these plastic bricks and everyone starts manufacturing plastic bricks out of factories in China cheaper than we can make them out of the ocean and providing this amazing tool.  But, my goal is to clear that.

Jeff: So, the plastic bags are the Fat in your body, and the plastic bricks are the result of that?

Matt: Exactly.  If everyone is focused on the plastic bricks it’s going to backlog the plastic in the ocean, it’s going to compete with the plastic in the ocean as a source of fuel, or a substrate or a material used to make bricks.

Now, when people have been coming to me lately trying to sell me on to Ketones I’m sitting there going, “Don’t come to me with your plastic bricks because my goal is to clear the plastic out of the bloody ocean.”

Jeff: Yeah, me too. (laughs)

Steve: Yeah.

Matt: So, that’s the whole point; if your goal is to take Fat out of your body the process of taking Fat out of your body makes Ketones, so taking in Ketones is the wrong end of the picture, you’re actually shutting things down.  So, with a Ketogenic Diet or a Ketogenic supplement will stimulate the Burning of Fat and the generation of Ketones, which you’ll then excrete.  Some people are drinking Ketones which they’re then excreting, but on the way through those Ketones are used as a source of fuel.  That fuel is competing with the Fat from your Body and competing with the Ketones you’ve made from the Fat within your body.

So, it’s coming in like a fourth Macro sending a message back to your body saying, “Shut down, stop this silly process, you can’t be making all these Ketones within your body.”  On the way through though they make you feel good, the Ketones come through and they’re still fuel, like I said, they’re like a fourth Macro.  It’s like alcohol, it provides a Calorific value but it’s not necessarily a Fat or a Protein or a Carb.

Jeff: Which, often isn’t counted in the Nutritional panels because it doesn’t show up.  And, I’ve been approached a couple of times as well, which is kind of cute.  And, I’ve got nothing against network marketing or MLN companies, in fact I think they’re a fantastic way for business if it’s done right.


Matt: It’s an excellent way to educate people.

Jeff: But, that’s the problem, it’s a double-edged sword because sometimes you’ve got people who are wrapped up in the hype, they don’t have a lot of knowledge, they’ve invested money into these sorts of things as well, and potentially they’ve got some friends and family on board, and like anything, Chinese Whispers start.  So, the company might be educating people rightly or wrongly, I don’t know, but as soon as people start perpetuating that with a financial goal with no real education, no real understanding of how things really work in the body, then you start getting these warped stories.  Winston Churchill said, back in the 1940s, “A lie gets half way around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”

Well, now in 2017 we’ve got social media and Twitter, and a lie gets seven times around the world in five minutes.

Matt: And, I’m just thinking about putting my pants down and it’s gone around the world. (laughing)

Jeff: That’s the problem.  So, there’s a lot of this information, and this Podcast is really to talk about the supplementation of Exogenous Ketones.  I want to go back where we first started because it’s not just this company, it’s everywhere.  And, Steve, we were looking some popular Raspberry Ketone supplements that are sold, we were just looking at them this morning, and you can buy 10 bottles for next to nicks, and we were looking at the reviews and they were positive.  And, we were talking about why they would be positive, and it’s quite easy to understand, and this is a lot of people involved in other companies too where there is a financial reward, or they’re heavily invested, “But, I’ve got a result,” but it’s anecdotal.  And, Steve, you and Matt are going to breakdown a lot of the science for us, and what happens in the body when you bring in Exogenous Ketones as opposed to letting the body produce it’s own.

But, what I can see is, 1) Ketones are an excellent source of fuel for the Brain so they make you feel good.  But guess what, so does Cocaine.

Matt: Same price too. (laughing)

Jeff: The second thing is, some Ketones, especially the Raspberry ones, for example, are Estrogenic.

Steve: Yeah, very much so, they’re very Estrogenic, and they’re Antiandrogenic.

Matt: Meaning?

Steve: Meaning they reduce Testosterone levels, so you waste your Muscles away.

Jeff: So, weight loss then could also come from a lack of Muscle?

Steve: Yeah.  And, about 15 minutes ago I lost about a fifth of a kilo going to toilet.

Jeff: Because, they’re also a Diuretic.

Steve: A Diuretic, in other words you can lose Fluids.

Jeff: So, so far people are thinking –

Matt: Did you weigh it?  You took the scales?

Steve: Of course I did, don’t you? (laughing)

Jeff: No, he’s joking.  Then, the next thing we’ve got to take into consideration is that people, generally, if they’re going to buy supplements, but not always, they’re going to start improving their Diet and they’re going to start exercising more as well.


So, all of a sudden, you’ve got a Diuretic that’s losing Muscle Tissue, people are eating better, potentially less Sugars if they are trying to get into a Ketogenic Diet, which is always beneficial for Fat Loss and well as exercising more, they’re turning around and going, “Hey presto, on the scale I’ve lost 10 pounds or 4 kilos or whatever it is,” and they go, “A + B = C, this stuff is the greatest thing in the world.

Now, probably there are some people listening to our Podcast now are either using them, buying them from a store or using them through a company that they’re involved with, bear with us, because what I want to do now Steve and Matt is break down the science of what’s actually happening in the body when you are taking Exogenous Ketones, and Steve you might want to start off just quickly, because we mentioned it before, the Raspberry Ketones, and  then Matt, we can talk about some of the other forms of Ketones and some of the negative side effects in the body.

Matt: And, good stuff.  People need to understand, there are so many different ways to Keto.  So, Ketogenic Diets, and I’ll get Stevo to tell us a bit about the history of Ketogenic Diets, but they’ve been around for a long time, and where the confusion is coming in is, there is so much awesome research on Ketogenic Diets, for different reasons.  But, like I said, you can design a Ketogenic Diet for Fat Loss by encouraging your body to make Ketones from your body fat, or you can design a Ketogenic Diet to flood the body with Ketones for Brain and Muscle performance and those sorts of functions.

The problem out there is there is confusion and we want to clarify that, because the Ketogenic Diet references and information, that have nothing to do with Ketone supplements are being used to promote the Fat Loss aspects of Ketones.

Jeff: Highjacked, Matt.

Steve: Yes.

Matt: And, the research on Ketone supplementation for Brain, Nootropic effects, Anti-Seizure control, Anticatabolic actions, are being used to promote the sale of Ketone supplements, and people are getting confused because they’re confusing Ketosis from drinking a Ketone supplement with Ketosis from being on a Low Carb Calorie controlled Diet that forces your body to use Fat as a primary source of fuel because you’ve taken away all other potential sources of fuel.

So, we need people to understand, when we’re taking through this stuff it can be confusing because it depends on what your goal is and what type of Ketogenic Diet you’re on, and the Ketogenic Diet we give to an Epileptic child will be extremely different to a Ketogenic Diet that we give to someone trying to lose Fat.  And, the Ketone supplementation for a Ketogenic Diet for an Epileptic child is why they made the bloody thing so the kids can go to birthday parties.

Steve: Exactly right.

They’re not interested in the kid getting ripped and threaded, are they?

Matt: I bloody hope not!

Jeff: These are the things we need to discuss.


The problem is when the research is highjacked, and I think that’s what makes us most upset.  Matt, you’re pretty upset because you see – and I said this to Lyndall as well, because some of her friends have been mixed up in this too – people are doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.


Matt: Yes.

Jeff: That’s what we want to stop.  We want to give people the information and the education, and we’re not anti any company unless they are deliberately, or allowing, or because they’re too ignorant to educate people on the real science that’s out there, and that’s what we want to get into.  Some of these companies can seem extremely convincing because they’ve got all the charts, they’ve got all the information, 1+1=2 and it all seems to add up, but when you delve into it, it really doesn’t.

Steve: It’s very scary, because when you supplement with Ketones it’s also Toxic for your heart as well, it’s Cardio Toxic as well, this is what this published Paper demonstrates.  There is a bit of a danger, and it’s also Teratogenic

Jeff: What does that mean?

Steve: That means if you’re going to have a child the child could die.

Jeff: Wow!

Matt: Or, birth deformities.

Steve: Yeah.  So, let’s say you’re a young woman of 25 to 30 or something like that, and you’re on this stuff for toning up wedding or whatever it is, and you fall pregnant, that’s very dangerous.

Jeff: Is there a level of Toxicity Steve?

Steve: No, because it hasn’t been tested.

Matt: Because, they can’t test on a pregnant woman.

Steve: No.  They’ve done it on rats, of course, and they’ve found it causes defects and deaths in rats, but you can’t test it humans because of the unethicalness of it, so we don’t know the Toxicity level.  I asked the question, “Well, how many Raspberry punnets can you eat a day?” and you guys said two –

Jeff: Yeah, this was off air.  If I was hungry I could probably eat two.

Steve: Well, let’s say you could eat four, let’s say you could eat a kilo of Raspberries a day, just hypothetically.

Matt: You’re crazy Steve, that’s what I would say.

Jeff: I step back from the edge, Steve, this is getting –

Matt: You and your Raspberries, wrap them up.

Steve: Well, to get the level of a single capsule of one of the highest potent ones I found on the internet you’d have to eat 236 kilograms of Raspberries to match one capsule of Raspberry Ketones.

Jeff: And, even that’s probably not a fair comparison, Steve, because what you’re suggesting is that these Ketones are not derived from Nature, but they’re synthetic.

Steve: Made in a lab.  They’re not made from Raspberries.  You don’t just take 236 kilograms of Raspberries and make it into one capsule, the capsule would be worth $10 million, you make it in a lab.  And, I’ve seen it advertised, and I’m not mentioned names, 100% Natural, and that’s absolute C-R-A-P, I won’t swear.

Jeff: Well, we’re trying not to swear because apparently that’s why we’re not getting into another part of the Podcast section because apparently, we’re foul mouthed Australians.

Matt: Well, edit out the scale comment.

Jeff: What scale?  I didn’t even hear it.

Matt: Well, Brooko eh?  (wink, wink)

Jeff: So, no swearing anymore, fellas.  Fiddle de de de. (laughing)


Matt: There will be a lot of struths and fair dinkums coming out of me then.

There is an FDA report on the internet here about Ketones causing – and, Matt, you wanted to describe that side effect of Ketones.

Jeff: This is where we started from.

Matt: Because, when we were making our T432 product, the guys with the Raspberry Ketones were popular at the time so I thought I better look into it, and I read the bit about how they cause Testicular Atrophy, and I want to be raising children not have ‘Raison Nuts’. (laughing) But, they make your nuts shrink and they don’t recover, it’s irreversible Testicular Atrophy.

Jeff: So, while we’re bashing Raspberry Ketones, what else do Raspberry Ketones do to us?

Steve: Raspberry Ketones are unnatural, they’re Toxic, they’re bad for your Heart, they’re Teratogenic, they’re bad for Reproduction, they’re Estrogenic so they increase Estrogen whether you like it or not, most people are Estrogen Dominant of course, and they also reduce Androgens, which is Testosterone.  So, your Muscle will Atrophy.

Matt: But, when you drink them within 30 minutes they turn up in your Urine and show up on Keto sticks and say you’re in Ketosis, and we’ve all been taught that a Ketogenic Diet that puts you into Ketosis Burns Fat.  So, therefore, if we drink Raspberry Ketones and wee them out we must also be in Ketosis Burning Body Fat.

Steve: I’ll read this Paper about that, and quote; “The majority ingested Raspberry Ketone was excreted within the Urine within the first 24 hours.”

So, of course you’re going to measure it in Urine, and you’re going to think, “Oh, I’m in Ketosis,” but those Ketones, as Matt said, also suppress your Metabolism.  Now, let’s just talk Fat Loss, and most people want to lose Fat, well you won’t if you drink this stuff, it will suppress Fat Loss because your body will have a negative feedback, as Matt said before, it will pump out Insulin, stop Fat Burning, so you don’t go into a condition called Keto Acidosis.  Now, if you’re a Type 1 Diabetic you can’t pump out Insulin because their Beta Cells and their Pancreas are stuffed so you can go into a condition called Ketoacidosis, and that’s dangerous.

When Ketones get to a certain level your body stops making them.

Matt: And, this is all Ketones, not just Raspberry, because Raspberry Ketones have been and gone.

Jeff: No, Matt, actually they’re not.  Steve and I were just looking before and there are products all over the place.

Matt: Struth.

Steve: So, let’s say you’ve reached a level of Ketones, let’s say you’re Burning Fat, your body is regulating at a level like that, and you take a whole whack orally.  Guess what?  You’re going to go into Ketoacidosis, it’s going to be too high because you can’t regulate what’s going into your Stomach.

Matt: And, people are trained into thinking that the darker the colour on the Keto sticks the more Fat they’re Burning.  In my Naturopath Clinic, I stopped using the Keto sticks because people were becoming too dehydrated because they were thinking, “I’ve worked out another way of making these Ketones high in my Urine, which means I’m Burning more Fat than my partner, or whatever, by drinking less water,” which makes the Renal Load problem worse.


Jeff: We were talking about that, Steve; if you are on a Ketogenic Diet one of the best things you can possibly do to stop the level of Acid getting too high where it stops the Fat Burning and the Ketogenic process from happening is to consume more water.

Matt: Exactly.

Jeff: So, don’t worry about trying to get into that deep purple on the stick, where you think, “Hoorah, I’m at the maximum level,” no, try and drink more water so it’s on the lower end and you will be far healthier and also, from your goals perspective, and the health is the most important thing, but from the goals perspective you’re going to stay in Ketosis longer before the body shuts that down.

Matt: Yeah, that’s right.

Steve: As I said to all my students, the only Deep Purple you want to get into is the band. (laughing)

Matt: Ha ha, Steve.

Jeff: You know what?  Half of our listeners will be going, “Yes, I know exactly what you mean,” but some of them will be saying, “I have no clue what that man is saying.”

Matt: Unless you go, “De De De, De De De.”  Everyone will know it.

Jeff: Smoke on the Water.  I don’t know about that.

Matt: What?

Jeff: We’ve got a lot of 18 and 19 year olds that –

I should have brought my guitar in.

Matt: No, we should not bring guitars in because he will sing.  You’ll play guitar, I’ll feel like an idiot, tap my foot, have a beer.

Steve: No, I used to play it in the band.

Jeff: Some of our listeners don’t even know that we landed on the moon, and actually, that’s questionable. (laughs)

Matt: Come on.  Anyway, back to Ketones.  We’ve talked about the Raspberry, but we’ve got to look at Beta Hydroxy Butyrate and Acetoacetate are the ones that we make within our body from the Burning of Fat, they break down to Acetone, and you can tell when someone is in Ketosis because their breath stinks, it smells like nail polish removers, they’ve got that funny chemical smell.  That’s the breakdown products from Ketones.  Some people wee it out and some people breathe it out, and you can get some cool breath tests now that will confirm it.

Jeff: What tests?

Matt: A breath – not breast.  Is that what you were hinting at?

Jeff: (laughs) I wasn’t sure what you said.

Matt: You started looking at my nipples and I was thinking, “I’m either smuggling peas or I said breast.”

Jeff: I think you’re smuggling peas, it’s a bit cold in here.

Matt: Yeah, I could cut glass with these today.

Jeff: Hang on, let’s stop us getting onto that on the Podcast.

I didn’t swear.

Jeff: Well, no it wasn’t swearing.

Matt: So yeah, with those ones that we make from our body – and, another one we make in our body is HMB, you’ve probably seen like Calcium HMB supplements and things like that, well HMB is made in our body from Leucine, so that’s also a Ketone that our body uses when we’ve got no fuel and has an Anticatabolic affect, it preserves our Muscles.

Steve: Hydroxymethylbutyrate.

Jeff: Nice Steve.

Matt: So, all these things come through and join in with this Keto Acid load, they go on to our Kidneys.  If you’re goal is to Burn Fat we want to be making as many of those Ketones out of the Fat in your body, because that’s going to be your limiting factor as to how much Fat you can Burn before your body kicks in and says, “Enough is enough, you’re Burning too much Fat, you’re going to strip it down.”

Steve, do you want to tell us a little bit about the history of the Keto Diet as well?  Because people need to understand where these things start from and how they end up here.

With the Keto Diet, can I take you back to 1925?

Matt: Do, do, do, do.  Do, do, do, do. (Twilight Zone music)


Steve: Back in 1925 there were a lot of infants having Seizures, and what they noticed with these Seizures was if they starved them – kids have a lot of Brown Fat which means they can go into Ketosis easier and Burn the Brown Fat, – they stopped having all these Epileptic Seizures.  And, in 1925 one of the researchers found out and said, “Well, we can reproduce Ketosis by going on a Diet that was one gram per kilogram of Protein, so a Low Protein, very High Fat Diet, very Low Carbohydrate Diet –

Matt: As opposed to long term starvation? (laughs)

Steve: Yeah, exactly.  Because long term starving of kids killed them.  So, you could go on this Diet for weeks, and potentially months on end and the Seizures would reduce.  The Ketogenic Diet was used extensively, particularly for Epilepsy, until we go to 1938, when they came up with a drug called Dilantin which is an Antiepileptic drug.  So, which is easier, putting a kid on a very strict Diet or giving them a tablet?

Jeff: And, Steve, what’s going to make you more money?

Steve: Ah yes!

Matt: You’re a sceptical bugger.

Jeff: I am.

Matt: But, the Keto Diet that they used was 90% Fat, 4% Carbs, 6% Protein.

Jeff: Wow!

Matt: Imagine trying to keep a kid on that.

Jeff: It’s almost impossible.

Matt: And, then if there’s a birthday party coming up and you say, “If you have any of these things you’re going to start having Seizures.”

Jeff: Happy Birthday.

Matt: Yeah, pretty much.  Put a candle in that. (laughs)

Steve: It was pretty severe, but that was the history of that Ketogenic Diet.  Now, if I can take you back to 1929 there was a dude called Warburg, and not Mark Warburg, which is how I used to teach –

Jeff: Marky Mark.

Steve: Not Marky Mark.  Oh God, that show, mate.  He is still around isn’t he?  Yeah, he’s still a popular actor.

Matt: Of course, he’s buff again.

Jeff: He listens to this Podcast.  No, he doesn’t.

Steve: This doctor/researcher Warburg found out that Cancer Cells can survive on Glucose; they need Glucose to survive to produce Lactic Acid.  So, he postulated that if you give someone a very Low Carbohydrate Diet it can be used to treat Cancer sufferers.  So, there’s lots of research, even to this very day.

Jeff: Is that a view you subscribe to?

Steve: Absolutely.  I’m a huge fan of the Ketogenic Diet for many, many reasons, for Cancer, for Epilepsy, for all sorts of things, Fat Loss, I’m a huge fan, and Cardiovascular Disorders as well, all sorts of things.

Anyway, Warburg discovered this, and it’s called the Warburg Effect if you want to look it up, and basically you can go on a Ketogenic Diet and treat Cancers because Cancer Cells need Glucose.  When I was taught Naturopathy many years ago we were taught, “Cancers are Acid,” and all this sort of stuff, and the reason why Cancer is Acid is because it produces a lot of Lactic Acid from the breakdown of Glucose.  So, that’s why it’s Acid, it’s not because Acid causes Cancer, it’s just associated with it, so it’s not causative.  It’s like saying, Ketones in your Urine are associated with Fat Loss, but if you take them orally you’re not going to go into Ketosis.


Then, of course, we had Robert Atkins in 1972, he brought out the Atkins Revolution, and his Diet was a Ketogenic Diet; High Fat and Moderate Protein, so a bit more Protein and a tiny bit more Carbohydrates.  Even versions of the Paleo Diet are Ketogenic, which means you’ll produce Ketones.  Even running for 90 minutes is Ketogenic.

Matt: If running for 90 minutes is Ketogenic, then without exercise how long would you be on a Ketogenic Diet before you started getting into Ketosis?

Steve: It depends how much Glycogen, or stored Glucose, you’ve got in your Muscles and Liver, but they say about two to four days.

Matt: That’s an important point, and I want people to listen to this, because if someone is advertising to you saying, “You can make no changes to your Diet, no changes to you exercise, drink this product, and within 30 minutes you’re in Ketosis,” what is that telling you Stevo?  Obviously, that product has not depleted the Glycogen and forced the body into Burning Fat as a source of fuel, especially considering the product you drank is fuel –

Jeff: And, it doesn’t upregulate the Burning of Fat, if anything it down regulates it.

Matt: It down regulates the Burning of Fat, and then within 30 minutes you’re peeing on a stick that’s changing colour that you’ve been tricked into thinking it means you’re Burning Fat, it doesn’t, it means you’re urinating out Ketones.  So, the only way Ketones are coming through your Urine within 30 minutes, if you haven’t spent four days depleting Glycogen, or the last 90 minutes running, it’s the stuff you just drank.

Steve: Yeah.  It’s an absolute scam.

Matt: The scam is that they’re high jacking the research.

Steve: Yes.

Matt: I need people to understand this.  I love the use of Ketones for Seizure control, and I always try to do a Ketogenic style Diet because I’m not going to do 90 minutes of running, so I’ll do two to four days of Keto Diet to get into Ketosis to make myself smarter, so I will be sharper.  I always go Low Carb leading into exams, I always go Low Carb whenever I’m travelling to do seminars.

Jeff: Yeah, you do.

Matt: Whenever I used to do my Naturopath Clinic I spent all day trying to be in Ketosis to stay sharp and all that stuff.

Steve: During my Masters I was in Ketosis for a week.

Matt: And, the use of Ketone supplements for Brain fuel, to make you smarter, to protect your Brain from Alzheimer’s and Dementia and all that stuff is fine.  The use of Ketone supplements as an Anticatabolic agent for someone that wants to get bigger is also fine.

Steve: Hydroxymethylbutyrate is particularly good for Leucine, that’s a good one for that.

Matt: Exactly.  So, these things are good, but what I’m cranky about, in particular, is when people are using the information and the knowledge we’ve learnt from Ketogenic Diets specifically designed for Fat Loss.  And, just quickly before we move on, I just need to explain what the difference is there.  Just say you’ve got a certain amount of Calories coming from Protein, Carbohydrates and Fat, they’re your fuels predominantly, and you’ll also have Alcohols and Sugar waxes and other stuff, modified weird stuff that’s not included into those, including Ketones as a fourth Macro Nutrient.


If we want to force your body to Burn Fat from your Body we remove the alternative fuel sources, because it will Burn Fat last.  So, the whole concept behind a Ketogenic Diet for Fat Loss is, if we take away the Carbohydrates you can’t Burn Sugar, we make sure you’re not consuming excessive amounts of Protein because 50% of the excess Protein you’re going to eat is going to convert to Sugar and you’ll Burn that before you Burn Body Fat.  If we also make sure you’re not overconsuming Dietary Fats because you’ll Burn them before you Burn Body Fat.

So, what we’ve done is we’ve reduced your Calorie intake, to a certain degree, by reducing your Carbohydrate intake, but we make sure your Protein is adequate, not too much, but just right, and your Fat is adequate, not too much.  That’s how you force your body to Burn Fat off your body to make Ketones.

The research they’ve discovered from that, from the effects of Ketones in your body from that, is what they’re using to sell Ketone supplements which have the exact opposite effect; they’re not Ketogenic, they are Ketones.  So, a Ketogenic system, or a Ketogenic Diet, makes Ketones from your Body Fat.  The other ones are Ketones, they come in and compete and shut down the whole process.  They come in as a source of fuel, so they’re screwing around with your Calories anyway, they’re coming in as a fourth Macro sending a message to your body saying, “Hey, we’ve got this stuff covered, whatever you do don’t make anymore.”

I keep saying it over and over again, because I’ve been saying it over and over again for weeks, and people don’t get it.  Have you seen how many diagrams I’ve had to draw just for the staff?

Jeff: I know.  Yeah, you were pissed off yesterday.  It was funny, because a mate of mine came in to see us –

Jeff: He came in to sell some, sign you up.

Jeff: Well, I’m not sure, but that’s the way it was heading, and it was like, “Funny you should mention this,” and I was talking about it and I introduced him to Steve and Steve was going through the science, and you could see his jaw, he was just going, “Oh my gosh, this is completely not what I’ve been told,” and then you walked past and I said, “Hey Matt, what do you think about Exogenous Ketones from this product?” and you just looked at it and go, “Rahh,” he just goes off the handle, his hands start flying, “Don’t you show me that crap.”  Matt’s so passionate.

Steve: But, it’s easy to scam and to con someone into this because, as Matt said, they piggy back on the good research twist it, and it’s very much twisting the truth, it’s completely out of context.

Matt: It is.

Jeff: It’s fake news. (laughing)

Steve: It is absolutely fake news, it’s crazy stuff.

Matt: It is madness.

Jeff: I tell you what, if anything happens to me fellas – no.

Steve: Just get Ketones from your butt, not from your wallet.  It just makes sense, just get it off your gut, you don’t have to pay to buy them, you can make your own.  Why not?

Jeff: Yeah.  You mentioned before the Atkins Diet, which is funny because I think a lot of people understood that, and there was a lot of controversy because he was talking about a lot of Saturated Animal Fats as being the way to go.


I like that, ‘Make it Fit Your Macros’ which is where you choose healthier options like Avocados and good Fish and all the rest of it.  Atkins, didn’t he end up dying of a Heart Attack?

Steve: He actually fell on ice and cracked his head open and had a Stroke from the accident on the ice.

Jeff: Oh, sorry.

Steve: He was 78 and he was in a coma for two weeks and then passed away after that.

Jeff: So, it had nothing to do with –

Steve: But, he had a Stroke due to a trauma, so a lot of people say, “Oh, he had a Stroke and he died,” and he did, but it was because he slipped on ice and cracked his head open.

Matt: But, he developed the Atkins Diet to fix his Obesity and Cardiovascular issues.

Steve: Yeah, well he was a Cardiologist.

Jeff: Right, and he did it.

Steve: Absolutely it did.  It’s a pretty –

Matt: As opposed to Pritikin, Pritikin was the guy who talked about ‘Fit for Life’, ‘Less than 10% Fat Diet’, ‘Only Fruit till lunch time’.  Everyone man – they were using it as a text book in my uni in the 1st Year, but by the 4th Year they’d flicked the whole thing and said it was wrong because Pritikin has suicidal Depression and is a Nutso job, he had all Brain issues.

Steve: He had very High Carbohydrates which induce Cancers, so he got Leukemia and then committed suicide, he had mental issues.

Jeff: Well, no wonder the government wants us on that Diet!

Steve: Yeah, which was terrible.

Jeff: Yeah, and we could take some Prozac on the way. (laughs)

Steve: The one you mentioned, the ‘Fit for Life’ was even worse, that was a Harvey Diamond, and he was the dude who said to use your watch to set your Diet.  He said, “You only eat Fruit up until midday,” and I remember sitting there going, “Going, imagine being a hunter and gatherer, you’re starving in the bush and you come across an Apple tree and you go to grab the Apple and you look at your watch and you go, “I can’t eat that, it’s 1:30 now.”

Jeff: Or, your sundial. (laughing)

Steve: Yeah.  I mean where does this come from?

Jeff: It’s a good opportunity to sell products.

Matt: You just reminded me of something funny.  You know how they said another word for Vegan was ‘Bad Hunter.’  I heard a funny one, I was watching a show on TV the other night and some guy was talking about Intermittent Fasting, and someone asked him and goes, “Is that equivalent to a failed hunting trip?” (laughing). So, we got the Vegans are ‘Bad Hunters’ and Intermittent Fasters are just ‘Bad Hunters’ as well.

We’ve still got a few of those guys around like, Ornish, he’s a super Low-Fat dude, although he’s changed recently.  He first said Fish oils are good, now he said, “Nuts are good,” so he’s back peddling at a million miles an hour.

Jeff: Is this the guy I said to you yesterday?

Steve: Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah, as you said, he’s starting to come around.  I mean it’s just popular, I see it coming up in quite a bit in people’s news feeds and things like that.

Steve: He still promotes a high Flour based Diet, which is very dangerous, of course.  And, I don’t care what colour Flour it is, either, it’s white or brown, I’m not colour blind.

Jeff: You were talking before about the Vegan Diet as well, and I’ve got no problem with that, if that’s their conscious choice because they don’t want to create harm to animals, I love it, but I’m coining that phrase, ‘Make it Fit Your Macros’, so therefore find ways to be able to –


Matt: It’s funny you say it, because I was talking to Stevo the other day, because I was watching an interview with a lady that specialises in Vegan Keto systems.

Jeff: Wow!  That would be difficult.

Matt: Yeah, well the funny thing is, the interviewer kept trying to talk about Obesity, and this lady is going, “No, you need to understand that this is Ketosis for Brain power, for children’s learning and behaviour, and it’s for Epilepsy and that sort of stuff.  Because you’re eating Carbs, you’re eating Protein, and you’re just eating crazy amounts of Oil to put you into Ketosis on a high Carb Diet.  The only way you can go into Ketosis on a High Carb Diet is total saturation with Oils, so their body needs to process these Oils with the by-product of that being Ketones.  So, they’re eating stupid amounts of Coconut Oil and that, all for the purpose of saturating their body with Fat to get extra Ketones as Anticonvulsants and Brain fuel.”  She kept trying to straighten the interviewer out, saying, “No, we’re not talking about Obesity and Fat Loss.”  The interviewer was so confused because they were so confused about what a Ketogenic Diet is, because they thought, “Atkins, Ketogenic Diets, all these companies now promoting this sort of stuff for Fat Loss and this lady is trying to say, “No, no.  This is Ketosis and it’s for a totally different purpose, and you have to understand your reason for going into it.”

I’ve made a cool summary which we’ll put into out Blogs as well, but it’s quite a simple message.

Have I interrupted your history lesson, Steve?  I get so excited.

Steve: Yeah, it’s real exciting history.

Matt: No, I get excited about this bloody – I get actually quite cranky, don’t I?

Jeff: You do, you were upset yesterday.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt: But, this is what I’ve been trying to say to everyone, if you’re measuring Ketones in your Urine you need to go back and look at how they got there to work out what results you should expect.  Because, if your Ketones are in your Urine because you’re on some sort of strategy for Fat Loss then that’s cool, but if you’re just on a really High Fat Diet, or if you’re drinking Ketones, then they’re in the Urine, but it’s got nothing to do with cleaning the Fat out of your body.

Jeff: It’s like taking the dip stick out of your car and putting it straight into a bottle of Oil that’s right beside you and going, “Oh yes, I’ve got Oil on my dip stick,” “No, you dip stick, you’ve got no Oil in your car, you need it in the engine.”

Matt: Yeah, it’s like you’re measuring something totally different.  That’s the best analogy I’ve heard.

Steve: That’s exactly right.  That’s a good analogy.  And, it’s scary because the cost of this stuff – and, it’s a reflection of the desperation of people, typically in this case, to lose Body Fat, and they get it out of a bottle, and I’m so against that.  I mean you use supplements to supplement a healthy Diet.  This actually inhibits Fat Burning.

Matt: The other thing that annoys me, is this isn’t even needed because we have the tools available.  If people could just be educated that they can do this with their Diet alone, they don’t need anything.  But also, there are Ketogenic supplements available.


We make AMP V, which is a combination of Oils, no Carbs, no Sweeteners, none of that sort of stuff, no Protein in it.  It’s a little tiny dose of Oil, not enough for you to fuel your exercise but enough to trick your body into thinking, “The only thing you’re consuming is Oil, the only thing available is Fat, you better Burn Fat.”  It makes sure you don’t go into Starvation Mode, it stimulates the release of Fatty Acids, it stimulates the Burning of Fatty Acids and the ultimate production of Ketones.

Alternatively, we’ve got our product, T432 that stimulates Metabolic Rate, that works on Insulin Sensitivity, it works on Thyroid, it makes sure you’re releasing Fatty Acids, Burning Fatty Acids, and the end result is, you’re making Ketones.

So, the Ketogenic Diet is already there, the Ketogenic supplements are already there, but people have got confused with the end result of Ketosis on the dip stick with the consumption of Ketones and it backlogs the whole process.

Jeff: Yeah.  And, we declared that conflict straight up off the bat, because we have a product that we feel is superior to everything else.

Matt: Yeah, but I could have made Ketone, we could have made a Ketone product, but we made those because we wanted a Ketogenic Fat Loss system, we didn’t want to sell and just make a quick buck on the back of this bloody hype.

Jeff: And, the difference though, those people taking those Ketones immediately feel it in the Brain and they feel good, so I understand how they work.

Steve: I won’t mention a brand again, but I saw a Ketone product yesterday that was loaded with Caffeine as well.

Matt: Yeah.  But I saw another one where these people were trying to promote one, saying, “Have your favourite juice or your favourite smoothie and add these Ketones to it and you’ll be in Ketosis within 30 minutes.”

Jeff: Oh, well you know that they’re full of crap.

Matt: So, you’re drinking a whole heap of Sugar; it’s Sugar, it’s Sweeteners.  They’ve even got Sweeteners in it, and it makes no difference if they’re Natural or Synthetic Sweeteners, they’re non-Nutritive Sweeteners tricking your body into thinking you’ve got Sugar, and when your body thinks Sugar is coming it tells your body to not Burn Fat.

Jeff: Powdered MCTs are another one as well.  You’ve got to be careful that you don’t take a product with powdered MCTs which is half –

Matt: Well, powdered Oils in general.  The way they powder Oil is they have to make it into a dry powder, and there are two real ways of doing that, or three, but there’s only two where it actually happens:  Maltodextrin is the most, which is usually 50% Maltodextrin, which is a Sugar.  So, when you get a powdered MCT or powdered any Oil, then they’re often 50% Maltodextrin, otherwise they mix them with a Whey Protein concentrate, which is predominantly the by-product of the Whey Industry.  A lot of it is Lactose, it’s the permeate stuff.  But, that way you can turn an Oil into a powder if you dissolve it into enough powder, which is a Carb.

Jeff: Again, which shows at the heart of their research either they don’t understand, which is highly unlikely, or they know that people are going to determine their result by the way they feel and by measuring this on a Ketogenic stick, “We’re going to get them there, they’re going to believe us.  It’s going to taste good if it’s a powder –

Matt: People made millions from Raspberry Ketones.

Steve: Ugh, yeah.


Matt: People made millions from Raspberry Ketones, and now there are other Ketones and they will go the same way.  I didn’t realise Raspberry Ketones still existed.

Jeff: Oh big.

Steve: Oh yeah.

Matt: I though surely with all this Toxic stuff coming out that they’d be banned.

Steve: This Toxic stuff was around in 2010, 1015.

Matt: Do you know why they’re in there, because they’ve been used for years before as Raspberry flavouring, because that’s what Raspberry Ketones were originally, were Raspberry flavouring.

Steve: There you go.  This Paper about Cardio Toxicity was published in 2010.

Matt: That was probably even before.

Steve: No, we should have known.  And, then it was updated in 2015.  So, it’s quite dangerous that this stuff has been around and yet they’re still promoting it.  Now, let’s err on the side of caution, and let’s say these people don’t know about this stuff.  But, if you’re making a product you should research it, and this took me 10 minutes to research, and these are Medical Journals –

Jeff: But, where you went wrong, Steve, is you weren’t using a Google keyword search.

Steve: Oh Google?  No, this is PubMed literature search, and this is a paper published about New Dietary Supplements for Obesity; What we currently know in Obesity Treatment.  It’s the current Obesity Repertoire so it’s a good journal and you can find all this stuff out in there.

Matt: We’ll share this reading list anyway, and we’ve got a cool Blog. I’ll just quickly summarise the different types of Ketogenic Diets and what they’re for.

So, you’ve got the Fat Loss style Ketogenic Diet, which most people are interested in.  What that is, is it’s Protein adequate, Fat adequate, but it’s Low Carb.  The whole concept of that is to Burn Body Fat as your primary source of fuel, and the by-product of that is Ketones, but that’s the least thing we worry about.  So, we’ve got to force the body to Burn Fat and to do that you take away alternative fuels, which are Ketones, Carbohydrates, Protein, excessive amounts of Fat.

Jeff: Alcohol.

Matt: Yeah, other Calories, Alcohol in itself.  And, for those sorts of Fat Loss style Ketogenic Diets you use products like AMP V, you can use the NOWAY Protein, you can use T432.  But, you want to avoid Exogenous Ketones, you want to avoid Sweeteners between meals and pre-workouts.  You can have Sweeteners with meals, like with foods it’s no big deal in this sort of situation.

Jeff: And, Matt, you’ll still get the result but it may put a handbrake on it.  So, you’ll still get a result but it may slow down the effects.

Matt: Well, you often get a result with just changing lifestyle, and if you throw a supplement in it will often have a positive or negative effect, but the lifestyle change is the most important.

Jeff: Yeah, absolutely.

Matt: The Ketogenic Diet for Epilepsy is where they’re Carb adequate, Protein adequate, but really high Fat, and that is to saturate – that is for long term steady blood levels of Ketones, because we want the Ketones available as a source of fuel.  They’re not worried about Calories In and Calories Out for body composition changes, they’re worried about keeping Ketones in their Brain.


The worst thing they can have in that situation are Sweeteners and Carbs, but in that situation, you supplement with Exogenous Ketones, that’s when you use them, that’s what it’s for, and lots of Dietary Fats and Oils.

You can also do it Nootropic, where you go really Low Carb, normal Protein and really high Fat, for short term to force your body into Ketosis, so you get into this awesome zone where you’ve got great Brain fuel.  In that situation, you can use Exogenous Ketones, and having Ketones floating through your body within half an hour your Brain will use them as fuel and it’s excellent, in that situation.  You can stack the Ketones with AMP and all that sort of stuff in that situation.

Then, there’s another Ketogenic Diet which we call Mitochondrial biogenesis style Diet, and what that is it’s a Carb cycling system, where they go really Low Carb, really High Fat for a period of time while training for an event with the goal of making you feel horrible and forcing your Mitochondria to grow more and more, then you switch out the Fat and put in Carbs just before the race and you’ll fun like the clappers.  So, they’re the different styles.

But, three out of four of those are a High Fat Diet designed to saturate your body with Fat and all of that Fat competes with your Body Fat as a source of Ketones.  It’s only the Fat Loss Diet where you’ve got to watch the Calories, strip it down and take away all alternative Biofuels to force your body to Burn Fat, because it wants to Burn that last.

So, hopefully that’s summarised it, but I’ll put the chart up as well.

Jeff: And, some other things highly recommended as well, if you are looking at using a Ketogenic Diet for Fat Loss drink heaps of Water.  And, the other supplement I’ve always found beneficial, because I do use Ketogenic Diets when I’m looking for Fat Loss from time to time, is Acetyl L-Carnitine, which I also highly rate as well.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt: And, Fibre.  The biggest thing for me, if I go Keto I’ve got to make sure I take a heap of Fibre.

Jeff: Blocked up otherwise?

Matt: Oh mate, yeah.  You want to talk more about that?

Jeff: No, I’m good.

Steve: No.  Really no.

Matt: Because we can’t – you sure?

Jeff: No, the photos you showed me before are enough.

Matt: They’re fine?

Steve: Yeah.  You shouldn’t have made me go into the toilet and have a look.

Matt: Otherwise it’s like a small baby’s arm holding an apple.

Jeff: I thought that was the tail goes at the back.

Matt: Huh?  What?

Jeff: Next subject!

Steve: Yeah, we’ll move on.  Another thing is, it’s great for Cancer too.

Matt: What?

Jeff: A Ketogenic Diet.

Steve: Yeah, fixing it.

Matt: Oh good.

Steve: It’s great for that too, and it’s Anti-Inflammatory as well, Ketones.

Matt: If all the claims these people are making are true, except for the Obesity claims if you’re doing it as part of an Obesity Diet.  So, they do give you Mental Clarity, they give you Energy, they fuel your Muscles because they are fuel, the fuel things and give you feelings of being fuelled.

Jeff: With the exception of the Raspberry Ketones, which we know have the Estrogenic effects and the Antiandrogen effects.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt: And, make your nuts blow up.  Pow.

Jeff: Well, they’ll shrink.

Steve: And, make your Muscles shrink.

Matt: Yeah, make your Muscles and Nuts shrink.


Steve: That’s from the High Estrogens, and the Cardiotoxicity, the baby – the inhibitory production, it’s very dangerous.

Matt: Did you have a look for Teratogenic effects of natural Ketones made within our body?

Steve: Remember, you’re never going to get to the levels that supplementing them will.

Matt: Well, that’s what I’m referring to.  With your body, it’s making these Ketones and if you go into Starvation Mode during pregnancy surely that’s not creating a compound that’s Teratogenic compared to something that’s made in a lab.  But, if you are taking unnatural or supraphysiological doses that you get from a supplement that you won’t be getting from your body we don’t really know, because they would never have been tested.

Steve: No.

Matt: So, Ketogenic Diets have probably been studied through pregnancy and shown to have a certain level of safety with those Ketones?

Steve: Well, I’ll talk about the Inuit Indians, and these people and Eskimos are in a constant state of Ketogenic Diet.  You would think if you lived in Antarctica with no Vegetables, Fruits, or anything except for animal blubber and that, it’s winter, and you’re in Ketosis.

Jeff: It fascinates me how they get enough Micronutrients, how they get enough Vitamin C and –

Steve: Well, probably the animals they eat have Vitamin C from their eating of other things.

Matt: We don’t need a huge amount of Vitamin C, you only need to top up 100 milligrams a day, 50 milligrams a day.  It’s not the 1000s of milligrams that we think.

Jeff: Yeah, we did that on the Vitamin C Hoax Podcast.

Steve: Absolutely.  You don’t need a lot of it.  But, if you were Captain Cook in 1770 and you were on a ship for months and months and you were eating dry biscuits all day and lard then you could get Scurvy, but Scurvy is not recorded in Eskimos or they would have died out, we wouldn’t have Eskimos.  So, they’ve certainly evolved.

Matt: They spend a lot of time in Ketosis and they have a lot of babies, so natural Ketosis and that is probably fine.  But, with the supplements – the reason I’m talking about it is because I’ve heard reports of these people now saying – they’re using the research from the Ketogenic Diet to say this stuff is safe, it’s been done forever.

Jeff: Oh.

Steve: Ugh.

Matt: And, they’re giving it to pregnant women, they’re giving it to women who are breastfeeding, they’re giving it to babies, and based on the research of the Ketogenic Diets and the fact that these things are naturally made within our body they’re saying they’re fine.  But, they’re supplementing with it orally in doses that we don’t see in one serve.

Jeff: That’s what upset me, when I heard people saying, “This cures everything from Cancer to Alzheimer’s, to this, that and the next thing, by taking an Exogenous Ketogenic supplement, and it was like, “You’ve crossed the line now.”

Steve: Big time.

Matt: That’s going from Ignorance is Bliss to Lying is Fantastic, it feels amazing. (laughing)

Jeff: Well, I went up to the CEO of this company and I said, “How do you sleep at night, mate?” and he said, “On large piles of money with beautiful ladies.”  I’m joking of course, but that’s what he would say if I was to ask.

Steve: Of course.

Matt: Is that why you wanted to be CEO?

Jeff: Absolutely, but I’ve got no money, but I do have a beautiful lady.


Matt: Oh, well done.  Well played, sir.

Steve: Well played!

Jeff: Alright guys, is there anything else we want to cover off on before we get into some FAQs?

Matt: That’ll do for me.  We’ll do up this Blog and we’ll do some diagrams, because diagrams are cool.

Jeff: They are.  A picture paints a thousand words, I like pictures.

Matt: I end up putting 1000 words on my pictures.

Jeff: Yeah.  Well, that’s it.  If you’ve got any questions please flick them through, or if you’d like to debate some science flick it through.

Steve: Please.

Jeff: Steve loves that sort of stuff.

Matt: If you disagree and you’re selling it then you can –

Jeff: You can bugger off because we’re not going to promote your company, but we will smack you down. (laughing)


Jeff: Alright, this one is from Anonymous-


“Hi team.  Thanks for keeping up the great Podcasts, I love getting notification each week and listening to you shoot the ****, so to speak, on the way to work.”

I can’t even say the word anymore.

Matt: What is it?

Jeff: We’re under strict instructions not to mention any swear words.

Matt: Oh nice.

“I was wondering if you could talk more about the Ketogenic and Low Carbohydrate eating approaches –

Elsa must have put this one in because she knew we were talking about it today.

Matt: Say no.

Steve: Never.  No.

“ – and, all the hoopla still surrounding the negative effects of why eating goitrogens are supposedly meant to have on the Thyroid.

I’m 31, have PCOS subtype with normal Androgen levels but Insulin Resistant, and have Cysts on my Ovaries.  I’ve just started the Ketogenic Diet, 65/70% Fat, 10/15% Carbs, 15% Protein, and I’m worried about the stuff I’ve read about the Thyroid function depletion for females on High Fat and Low Carb Diets.  I have normal TSH of 2.2 and don’t suffer from cold extremities or hair loss, but need to lose the 8 kilos I’ve put on in the last six months inadvertently.

I’m also tried and sluggish a lot during the day, particularly on waking.  I’m relying on coffee in the morning yet struggling to fall asleep at night.  I’ve used CORT RX in the past with a small amount of noticeable benefit, but right now I’m taking T432, using the BLOCK E and the SUBCUT daily, two weeks in.  But, I’m still unsure of how I can improve my general wellbeing, energy levels, and also support organ function and hormones, as I continue along the Keto journey.

Any advice, particularly coming from you, would be much appreciated.  There is only so much internet forum and website scouring a girl can do before I’m feeling overwhelmed with what’s out there.

Thanks so much, from Anonymous.”

Well, obviously Elsa’s thrown this one in because she knew we were going to be talking about the Ketogenic Diet, so hopefully that’s helped with the foundations.  Steve, Matt?

Matt: It’s interesting.  One thing that happens with not only the Thyroid, but a lot of the other Metabolic organs and systems through the body, if your Ketone levels get too high then you will get negative feedback that will slow down your Basal Metabolic rate in general.


What often happens, like we were saying before, it’s mainly associated with Ketone supplementation because you get unrealistic levels of Ketones that go back and switch off the whole Basal Metabolic Rate by inhibiting such things as Thyroid Hormone activity and slow it all down.  What have you got there for the Thyroid?

Steve: In 1976 there was a Paper released that tested this, and they did different levels of Carbohydrates.  The lowest Carbohydrate level they went was 50 grams, which is pretty low, in fact you’re 10/15% Carbs so you’d be over that, but it didn’t affect the Thyroid at that level, 50 grams, and I’m talking T4, T3, Reverse T3.  By the way, TSH is not a Thyroid measurement, it’s a Pituitary Hormone often mistaken as a Thyroid measurement.  It’s a surrogate Thyroid measurement, it’s not actually a Thyroid Hormone.  So, if you wanted to test your Thyroid, measure Free T3 and Free T4.

Now, remember, being Insulin Resistant you’re on the right Diet absolutely.  Insulin upregulates the Theca Cells in your Ovaries to produce Androgens, so that can be problematic, but it looks like you’ve got normal Androgen levels.  But, a lot of doctors only measure Testosterone, they don’t measure Free Testosterone and DHEA, and they’re the Androgens, so just be aware of that.  I’m really glad you’re on the Ketogenic Diet, this is the right Diet you’ve been on, and I’m assuming your exercising Fasted, so Fasting exercise is an excellent idea as well.

Matt: What you want to do before your Fasted Cardio is you want to be using a product like AMP V, because what AMP V does is, because it’s a liquid Oil it’s interacting with receptors on the tongue straight away to tell your body, “You have available Fat for fuel, and Fat has plenty of Calories, so don’t hold back, don’t go into Starvation Mode,” and it works on the PPAR receptors through your Gut and your Liver to start processing some of this Fatty Acid to give you energy in the morning.

But, what you might need to do is get back on that CORT RX at night as well.  What I want you to do, to make sure your CORT RX is working properly, take 2 with your evening meal and then another 2 just before you go to bed to get that double dose at night to force you down.  Then, as soon as you’re sleeping properly and waking up feeling better, because you’re going to wake up, have the AMP and go for a walk, then drop your CORT RX back down to 2 just before bed.  So, do 2 with your evening meal, 2 before bed, so you get a certain amount in your bloodstream and you double dose and it will force the Cortisol down.  And, keep taking T432 through the day.

Jeff: Excellent.  So, AMP, CORT RX, and MULTI FOOD as well, Matt?

Steve: Yeah.

Jeff: And, I’ll throw in an extra T432 as well, even though she’s already got one.

Matt: I’m not joking, everyone needs to be on MULTI FOOD just to cover the stuff we don’t even know about.

Jeff: Look, going back to a Ketogenic Diet, and we’re not Inuits or Eskimos, but I always am concerned when I’m lowering my Carbohydrate intake especially from Fruits and other things like that, Steve.  Obviously, if you’re eating a varied source of Vegetables you should be okay, but just as a safeguard throwing in the MULTI on a Ketogenic Diet, well everyone should, but especially, I think.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff: This one is from Michael-


“Hi, love the Podcasts, love your attitude towards giving us something real, and how happy you are to explain it to us simple folk.  I get a good laugh out of your humour and odd looks from people at work when I’m listening to you on my headphones.

After listening for some time, I think I’m overloaded on information and may have some interesting case studies to present.  It’s pretty stupid but more common than is often acknowledged.

I’m a male, 33-year-old painter for 13 years.  After quitting active combat competition in my early 20s I decided to concentrate on bodybuilding, and Steroids came along with the journey and I found coming off a cycle to be complete mental and physical torture.  After a year or so of cycling I chose to stay on instead of coming off.  Now I find myself stuck in rut.

I’ve acquired PTSD according to the professionals.  I run a medium size business and have a son who I have full time.  My mental state is quite up and down.  I’m not taking any meds but can speak with a professional at any time.

When, or if, I come off the Steroids I’m going to crumble and lose a lot, and adversely affect my young son who I have fought long and hard to keep out of a less desirable situation he was born into.  I did come off for a year about three years back under advice of an ‘Androgist’ and after the year my Test levels were at the absolute bottom of the range, equivalent to a 90-year-old man.

I got back on because I really wasn’t coping.  I didn’t lose sexual function when I was off but I did lose all will to have a shag, and these days have very low sperm count and a Missus who wants a fresh (inaudible)The last cut I did was 16 weeks on a very strict Keto Diet with a one hour cheat Carb up per week (inaudible) but I retained a bit of Fat on the hips and I’m guessing it was because I wasn’t handling the Estrogen from the elevated Testosterone levels.

I’m running the same again right now, and would love to do better.  Would BLOCK E help?  I would love to come off and not struggle to survive or adversely affect my business or those who depend on me.  Is CORT RX or MARS the answer?

If I can’t come off Testosterone do you guys have any suggestions of some way to manage the TRT or continued usage?  My Cholesterol, at one stage, doing a dirty bulk was 8.2 and the doctor nearly had a Heart Attack.”

It sounds like you might have nearly had a Heart Attack.

“I had this under control with a proper Diet Fish Oil tabs will help.  I pretty well want to order everything you’ve made for my family and myself, but I would love some advice on my own issues.

I appreciate your time and opportunity to bring a bit of light to this predicament I’ve put myself in.  Thanks, Michael.”

Matt: Cool.


This is a very – I don’t want to say common, but it’s something you hear a lot, or something I hear a lot because I used to do a lot of work in Bioidentical Hormones and Testosterone replacement therapy and that sort of stuff, where people, not from the sporting community, were just put on Hormones and told, “That’s what you’ve got to be on forever.”

Jeff: HRT.  Sure.

Matt: So, firstly, as a painter there would be a lot of heavy metal exposure and those heavy metals and that sort of stuff and things like Cadmium and that can really screw around with your Cytochrome P450s.  Cytochrome P450s are our first line of defence against Toxins and they help to clear away Poisons and that sort of stuff.  But, other Cytochrome P450s get sped up at the same time and some of those are, 5-Alphareductase that makes DHT that causes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, exaggerated, amplified emotions, and the other one is Aromatase which converts Testosterone to Estrogen.  So, having a high level of Toxic exposure – and it also depends on where you’ve been buying your gear as to how clean it is as well, and what it is, and that can also have a lot of effect, especially a lot of heavy metal waste products that are found in these things can screw around with these systems and can contribute directly to screwed up conversion, so your stuff doesn’t work the way it should.  And, when you come off it your body can’t reboot quickly enough.

So, when people are on TRT long term, what we used to do in the Naturopath Clinic when I used to work in with these doctors is, we used to create a product like ALPHA MARS to control the Conversion Pathways, and we also used to give them a product called Chrysin Cream, which we had to get compounded up at the chemist and it used to cost about 150 bucks every couple of weeks to get this Chrysin Cream.  And, that’s what we made BLOCK E3 as.  BLOCK E3 is a Chrysin Cream, it works out to be about 5% Chrysin Cream, the same as we used to get compounded up from the doctors.  What you do with the BLOCK E3 is you massage it into your chest, get some on your wrists and massage it into your love handles and those areas where you’ve got a lot of Aromatase activity and it can help prevent a lot of the side effects.

When people are on long term TRT then we stack it with ALPHA MARS and BLOCK E3 and we keep the Conversion Pathways right and then they can get away with a lower dose and have the same effect but get less side effects.

So, now for you, what Protocol you should probably follow is, I would do CORT RX 1 capsule three times daily, I would do ALPHA MARS 2 in the morning and 2 at night, and I would do 3 MULTI FOOD per day, and that will help to get some balance back into your system.  See, what’s happened at the moment is, because you’re struggling to make Hormones your Cholesterol is backlogged, and the whole time you’re putting Hormones – this is an interesting analogy, man.

We were talking about Ketones and Fat Loss, and that’s still in my bloody head.  What happens is, when you’re putting in – Testosterone is made from Cholesterol.


When people put in Testosterone it backlogs the Cholesterol.  So, as you can see, this guy’s Cholesterol levels have gone high because his body isn’t using that Cholesterol to make Hormones anymore because he’s putting Hormones in.  It’s the same as when these people drink Ketones, it backlogs the Fat in their body, because they’re not turning Fat into Ketones anymore, because the Ketones are already there so it backlogs the Fat.  The same as when someone’s putting in Testosterone it backlogs the Cholesterol because they don’t need to convert Cholesterol into Testosterone anymore.

Jeff: That makes sense.

Matt: So, that’s why your Cholesterol is high, and as soon as we ask your body to make more Hormones, or use that Cholesterol for something else. by fixing up this Hormonal Profile your Cholesterol will start to drop.

Steve: Yeah, very much so.  Your doctor shouldn’t have had a Heart Attack, that’s very predictable.  If you’ve got Low Testosterone you’ve always got High Cholesterol because it’s the precursor.  Another test you can ask your doctor to test for is a Hormone called Luteinising Hormone.  Now, it can either be really low or really high in your case, we don’t know, and that will help you determine why your body, your Leydig Cells in your Testes are not making Testosterone, so that’s another test you can do.

The treatment, I totally agree with Matt.  If you want there are creams, even Bioidentical Testosterone creams to help you get off Testosterone, and therefore you can then dose down in a slower manner, that’s one other way to do it.  Because you’re so low in Testosterone it might help you get off it if you get your doctor to write you a script for that.

Matt: But, take ALPHA MARS the whole way through.  When you’re on it, coming off it, or off it, and use it the whole way through.

Steve: Absolutely.

Jeff: Because, obviously it can help when you’re off it to restart your own production, but if you’re on it, it makes the Testosterone that you are bringing in, the Exogenous Testosterone, go down the right Pathways so you’ll get less of your negative side effects.

Steve: Absolutely.

Matt: And, less negative feedback.

Steve: Mm.  That’s pretty much it.

Jeff: So, we’ll throw out the ALPHA MARS, CORT RX, MULTI FOOD and BLOCK E3.

Matt: Yeah, do it.  Butter up.

Jeff: Cool.  Let us know how you get on Michael.

Last one.  This one is from Kim-


“Hi guys, thanks for the wealth of information provided to us.  You have been central in my decision to leave my corporate stressful job and pursue a career in Functional Medicine.”

Matt: Awesome.

Jeff: Wow, that’s awesome.  We need more people who care.

“I’m writing if you have any advice for a friend whose sister has been diagnosed with late stage Lyme Disease.”


Steve: You get it from Ticks.

“After 17 years and multiple diagnoses including Chronic Fatigue, she’s just been told this is what it is.  She has seen a huge number of doctors and told that her only options are long term Antibiotics.  She has started Hypothermia, extreme heat treatment.  She is out of options and doctors, and this is taking a great toll on the family, not to mention herself, for so long to have missed so much of her life.

Is there anything that you can recommend for her, supplements or otherwise to assist through this process?  I want to do anything I can to help her.

Thanks, and hope to hear from you soon.”


Matt: I’ve treated that a few times, and what I used to use, or what I recommend people use, is a Herb called Artemisia annua, which is a Chinese Wormwood, that you take megadoses of, and that’s the same sort of Protocol you’d use to knock off Malaria, so Artemisia annua and we’d use about 15 grams a day of the dry Herb as Teas and that sort of stuff.

Jeff: Get that from the health food or go to Chinese traditional?

Matt: Yeah, something like that.

Steve: It tastes great too.  No, it doesn’t, it tastes like plastic.

Jeff: I was going to say, Wormwood doesn’t sound –

Matt: It tastes almost like Menthol, it’s a strange thing.  And, there is another Herb, which tastes worse, is Bloodroot, Sanguinaria canadensis.  Find the liquid one and do 1 ml twice a day.

Jeff: That’s powerful stuff.

Matt: Yeah, well this is a powerful little thing, it’s hard to get rid of, and it really smashes the system and tricks the body into thinking that – well, the body knows something is not right but it can’t do anything about it, so there is just constant inflammation and Stress on the system.  And, always do MULTI FOOD because it leads to significant depletion of Nutrients and makes it harder for the Immune System to fight.

Jeff: Wow!

Steve: Very much so.

Jeff: I used that Bloodroot, I had little skin cancers all over my skin, last year.  I looked like I’d been punched in the face because I used it with some other Herbs and that and it just killed off all the skin cancers I had.  Man, I tell you what, I pissed like a race horse though.

Matt: What?  On all fours? (laughing) I did that once, it went all up my nose, “Oh, what’s going on?”

Jeff: Oh man, you shouldn’t do that.

Matt: In the middle of the paddock on all fours?  It was like that time when I slept like a baby, I woke up with poo in my pants and a boob in my mouth.  (laughs) I was drunk though.

Steve: Yeah.

Jeff: What?

Matt: What?

Jeff: So anyway, MULTI FOOD, and yeah, the Bloodroot is awesome stuff, and obviously the Chinese Wormwood, the Artemisia, is that how you pronounce it?

Steve: Artemisia, yeah.

Matt: Chinese Wormwood is easy.  Sweet Annie is the trick name.

Jeff: So, with the Bloodroot, any amount you’d recommend?

Matt: One ml twice a day, but like I said, I can’t remember the details of the fluid extract I used to buy, what concentration ratio it was.  So, pretty much find the Bloodroot product and then find what the dose is.  It has a very thin therapeutic window, so whatever dose they say on the side of the packet just use that.  Because, too much and it makes you feel terrible.

Jeff: Right.

Matt: Well, it’s poison, and we just want those guys to suck it in.  We’ll suck certain amounts in but we want those guys to have most of it.

Jeff: And, I’ll flick out a MULTI FOOD just in terms of her general health support.

Steve: Very much.

Matt: You can always do CORT RX because everything – any time you have something weird and you don’t know what it is or what to do, do CORT RX for the NRF2 activation.  Because NRF2 is our first line of defence, it’s Anti-Inflammatory, it’s Antioxidant, it stimulates Detoxification, it helps the healing of the Gut, every aspect that we need to improve our Resilience it does it through NRF2, and CORT RX is a very powerful NRF2 Activator.

Jeff: Gentlemen, thank you.

Steve: Cool.

Matt: No, thank you.

Steve: It was a good day.

Jeff: I think we’ll be back next week with –

Matt: Why?  Do you think we might be assassinated between next week –  (laughing)

Jeff: I think we’ll be back next week with the Cholesterol Part 2.

Steve: Yeah, that will be good.

Jeff: Alright, excellent.  Thanks gentlemen.  See you next week.

Steve: Thank you.

Matt: Hooroo.