ATP Science – Episode 84 – All about Joints


In today’s podcast Matt and I talk about Injury, Disease and Pain associated with Joints.

We cover off on Inflammation, Gout, Nerve Pain, Calcification, Frozen Shoulders, Bursitis, and the side effects of Statins on Joints, just to mention a few topics.



  • Liposomal Vitamins [00:50:20]
  • Fat Loss [00:54:27]
  • Depression, Cortisol [01:00:06]


**This information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition and is for information purposes only.  Please discuss any information in this podcast with your health care professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle**

You’re with your hosts Matt and Jeff.



Matt: G’day.

Jeff: Joints.

Matt: Yes, I’d love one.

Jeff: Well, you’ve got several.

Matt: I do, they make things bend.

Jeff: Joint Pain.

Matt: I’ve got that too.

Jeff: All about Joints.  Why, because you don’t have one?


Matt, we’re talking about –

Matt: Injuries, Joints.

Jeff: Yeah, like Gout and Nerve Pain, Calcifications, high grade Inflammation, low grade Inflammation, Frozen Shoulders, Bursitis and Lipitors.

Matt: Side effects from the drugs is another common cause people forget about.

Oh.  Alright.

Matt: Hopefully, if we cover through this we can give people enough information to be able to work out what makes their Joints sore.  If they have sore Joints they can work out what might be causing it and then we can help design a bit of a Protocol so they can treat it.

There are some other cool tips for bodybuilders and that sort of stuff.

Jeff: The power lifters as well.  Athletes and what have you?

Matt: Yeah, but also Inflammation around the Joints is a major trick of the trade that we target to improve Muscle Definition in our Athletes.  So, if we actually make the Joints look smaller you make the Muscles look bigger, especially for the lean physique bikini mob and that where these slight variations between attachments and origins of the Muscles and around the Joints, it can make a massive difference in the way they present on stage.

Jeff: I’ve got some controversy for you straight up, Matt?

Matt: Cool.

Jeff: Can you rebuild Cartlidge, yes or no?  Is it possible?  Because some people say no and some people say yes, some people say maybe.

Matt: It depends if you’ve got Chondrocytes.

Jeff: What are Chondrocytes?

Matt: On the ends of the Bones are Cells called Chondrocytes that make Cartlidge.  If they’ve been worn off, if you’ve been Bone on Bone and they’ve been worn down and they’re gone then there’s nothing there to make Cartlidge.

Jeff: Could you have surgery and have them reattached and put on to rebuild them?

Matt: I don’t know.  It’s kind of like that spongy end on the end of the Bone, you know, it’s really nice and alive.  So, at the end of the Bone it’s real spongy, these Cells just make this weird honeycomb structure that makes that cushioning Cartlidge on the edge of it.  The problem is, when that Cartlidge gets worn down, and we’ll talk about different causes for that, but once that Cartlidge gets worn away and you start scraping Bone what happens is you get these things called Osteophytes and they’re like little Calcium spikes and spurs that come off the end of the Bone where you’ve removed the Chondrocytes.


It’s changed, but it still thinks it’s Bone, so this Bone comes up through that gap, and if that’s happening then you know that you’ve got Bone replacing that tissue that would normally sit on the end of the Bone which helps to make the Cartlidge.  So, yes and no.  So, if there are Chondrocytes available you can fuel those Chondrocytes and they will make Cartlidge.  If you’ve got enough Chondrocytes, enough section to puff up your Cartlidge and make it fat enough it can take away your Pain, and you don’t feel the Bone on Bone anymore.  But, if you’ve got a Calcium spike sticking up they bloody hurt.  Some X-Rays they look like the inside of a bat cave with the stalactites and stalactites and whatever.  So, yeah, those things are banging into each other and they’re not nice and you can’t rebuild Cartlidge in where that Bone spike is growing.

Jeff: So, this Podcast is for sporting people?

Matt: For everyone really.

Jeff: Well, everyone’s got Joints, yeah.

Matt: And, with most people they hurt sooner or later.  What we’re talking about today is the difference between high grade Inflammation from Injuries, Autoimmune, Acute Gout attacks, that sort of stuff, compared to low grade Inflammation which creates wear and tear as we age and get such things as Osteoarthritis and Disc Degeneration and that sort of thing, and there are different treatments for them.

Jeff: Well, Matt, we may as well start off with low grade Inflammation.

Matt: That’s the easiest one.

Jeff: There are a couple of things on the list that you’ve written down here, Matt, which are a bit unusual, I haven’t seen before.  So, Menopause and Andropause can have an effect, and Adrenal Exhaustion?

Matt: Yeah.  What you’ve got to realise is, and think about this for most Age-related disorders.  They’ve identified that the majority of all Age-related Disorders have an Inflammatory Trigger.  So, our Hormones are Anti-Inflammatory, and what happens is, we’re plodding along, we’ve got a nice Hormonal Load most of our life, but as our Hormonal Load drops our ability to control that Inflammation is gone.  And then, normal Inflammation that we’ve had all our life just from daily activities, maybe a bit from your Gut, maybe some Allergies, Intolerances, maybe your Back isn’t 100%, structurally you could be a little bit out of whack.  So, these little Triggers of low grade Inflammation that you’ve dealt with your whole life all of a sudden you don’t have the Hormones to control that Inflammation, and things start to break down, then you age much faster.

That’s why you’ll find, when you talk to people around that Andropause, Menopause – Andropause is just the male Menopause – and, sometimes this can happen as young as 35, so we’re looking typically from the ages of 45 to 60 and the Hormone Load has significantly dropped from the Gonadal Hormones.  The Ovaries and the Nuts stop making Testosterone and Estrogen, basically.


Then, what is supposed to happen around that time is, the Adrenal Gland is supposed to pick up the slack.  So, the Adrenal Gland is going, “Well, I can make Estrogen and Testosterone as well.  So, because your Nuts and Ovaries have given up I’ll make a little bit extra to help you deal with the Inflammation.”

But, you can imagine, by the time you’re 40, 50, 60 your Adrenals have been dealing with Stress their whole life, and if you’ve got any sort of Adrenal Exhaustion and your Adrenal Gland is struggling to keep up with its requirements just handling the Cortisol production for daily Stress, then it’s not going to make any extra.  And, if it’s struggling to make enough Cortisol, Cortisol is the ultimate Anti-Inflammatory in our body.

So, typically what happens with Osteoarthritis, and other arthritic wear and tear conditions like Degeneration of the Lower Back, the Disc spaces there, Gradual Seizing up of the Shoulder.  Then, the key feature with Osteoarthritis is it’s white not red.  If you have a look at the knuckles on the old people and they bend them and they go white then you know there is Calcifications, and there’s not a huge amount of Inflammation otherwise it would be red.  So, it’s a Low-Grade Wear and Tear Inflammation, and over time that Inflammation degrades the Cartlidge and then they start getting Bone on Bone like we talked about.

The other thing that’s interesting about the Hormones is they are also necessary for the Regeneration and Repair of such things as Cartlidge and Bone.  So again, Hormonal Deficiency can often precede the Osteoarthritis and other Low-Grade Wear and Tear things.

Jeff: I’ve got a question for you on producing Testosterone, specifically, from your Gonads, obviously if you’re saying that can significantly slow down after 35, what about utilising supplements to actually help, or training?  Can that help to continue to producing Testosterone through the Gonads?

Matt: Well, training will encourage it as a priority, but you’ve still got to fuel it, so you’ve still got to make sure you’ve got the Nutritional status to be able to do it.

Jeff: So, if you do it with Herbs and all the rest of it can it prolong that, so that all the Stress doesn’t rest on the Adrenals?

Matt: Oh yeah, like Shilajit.  If you have a look at a Herb like Shilajit, one of the amazing things about Shilajit, on a Cellular level across the whole body, and it doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about Ovaries, Testes, Liver Cells, Brain Cells, whatever, Shilajit has this ability to improve Mitochondrial Biogenesis and actually improve the Energy production capacity of every Cell of our body.  Therefore, it helps the Cell produce more Energy and function better.  It’s also a very powerful Antioxidant and it makes the Cells more resistant to damage and that sort of stuff.

So, using such things as Shilajit can definitely have an Antiaging effect, and when I’m talking about Antiaging I’m trying to prolong quality of life as long as possible until you stop.  I’m not saying you’re going to start becoming younger.  So, with our Antiaging we’re delaying the aging process, we’re postponing the aging process, or if it’s happening prematurely we halt it and let it occur at a reasonable time.


That’s where things like Shilajit, Zinc, Selenium, those sorts of things that are going to fuel those Cells to actually perform their function, they’re really handy as well.

Jeff: Cool.  So, we’ve gone through Adrenal Exhaustion, Menopause.  Is there anything else, Matt, in that Low-Grade Inflammation you want to talk about?

Matt: The main thing is, and we’ll talk about this later with the Protocols a little bit more, but, always look for your individual sources of Inflammation, because all that happens with this Wear and Tear sort of Arthritis is, there has been some degree of Inflammation there their whole life that they’ve been dealing with, and then when the Hormones drop the Inflammation gets worse.

Jeff: Makes sense.

Matt: These are the people, if they’ve got any Gut problems, if they’ve got Allergies or Intolerances, if they’ve got Gut Dysbiosis, you know overgrowth of the wrong types of Bugs and everything, they’ve got these sources of Inflammation throughout their body, or if they’ve got Scoliosis or Sciatica.  Those sorts of things, all of a sudden, they just can’t handle them, all of a sudden all of these things together can have a massive effect on their Arthritis.

It’s really quite interesting because that’s why you’ll see also so many treatments for Osteoarthritis.  You’ll see people say, “For me, taking this Acidophilus product got rid of my Arthritis,” because in them that took away enough of the Inflammation from your Gut which allowed your Hormones to control the rest.  So, with all Arthritis you’ve got to look for the source of the Inflammation, but for the Wear and Tear it’s probably the stuff you’ve been dealing with your whole life and all of a sudden, it’s really hurting you.

The way to fix it is to eliminate them where possible, or load up your Hormones because they’re the most potent Anti-Inflammatories.  So, looking at the Adrenals, looking at Gonadal Hormones, and then just controlling normal Essential Fatty Acid Pathways and that to get your Anti-Inflammatory stuff.  I’ll talk more about Protocols at the end because they’re pretty similar the Protocols across the board for these things.

Jeff: Alright.  Let’s go into High Grade Inflammation, Matt, like Acute Injury and that sort of stuff.

Matt: With the High-Grade Inflammation, this is where you get the redness, the swelling, the heat and the pain, and you usually can feel the heat and you’ll see the redness.  Like Rheumatoid Arthritis or Autoimmune types of Arthritis they are definitely a High-Grade Inflammation, you can see the aggressiveness of it.  The word Rheumatism means Migrating Pain, and it’s interesting because it just moves around, which is another feature that’s different between Autoimmune Arthritis and Osteoarthritis.  Osteoarthritis, the knuckles on your right hand just stop working because you’ve been using your right hand all your life and now it’s wrecked.  With Rheumatoid Arthritis is will be in your Elbow one day, your Knee the next day, then it will settle in your Foot and make your Foot blow up, and then it will disappear and migrate around again.  With the Autoimmune types of Arthritis, it’s highly Inflammatory, it’s very aggressive, there’s a lot of heat, there’s a lot of pain, there’s a lot of redness.


Reactive Arthritis is an interesting one that’s linked in with the Autoimmunity where people can get what looks like Rheumatoid Arthritis or something, like in reaction to a spider bite or in reaction to other sorts of weird things.  A lot of Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis comes from children who get thorns and then they get a parasite, like Blastocystis hominis is a common Trigger for Juvenile Aggressive Arthritis, and it’s a parasite that their Immune System is attacking, but it has a similar shell to Cartlidge in our body, and then it attacks the Foot.  There is a lot of weird Arthritis situations like that, and they manifest with weird blood tests that look like they’ve got Autoimmune Disease, but then it disappears, and they go, “Oh, we must have misdiagnosed it,” but then it comes back again, it’s like a strange annoying thing.

Ankylosing Spondylitisis another Arthritic condition that’s common, it starts in the Lower Back and Ankles and they shut down, but again, it’s quite aggressive and it hits really hard and it makes major damage.

So, with the High-Grade Inflammation it’s so important to treat it so aggressively because it’s such an aggressive condition and it can do so much damage.  It’s really important to control the Inflammation, try to get to the bottom of the Triggers and start targeting them, because you have to get in quickly and make changes.

And, seriously, with the Low-Grade Inflammation things like the Cartlidge support work, things that help to rebuild Cartlidge work.  In High Grade Inflammation, you’re trying to fill up a bucket with a hole in it, you’ve got to take the attack off first.

Jeff: But, how do you actually treat something like that?  I guess it depends on the Trigger.

Matt: Again, interestingly, before Autoimmunity they believe Adrenal Exhaustion is a major preceding factor.  So, using Herbs that support Adrenal Function, Turmeric, Liquorice Root, that sort of stuff.  With Autoimmunity and High-Grade Inflammation there are a lot of other things that help, like high doses of Vitamin D, even high doses of Vitamin E, Immune Suppressant sort of things, very high doses of Omega 3 Oils will also suppress the Immune System.  There are a lot of those sorts of things that will suppress it.  Trying to find the cause of the Autoimmunity, whether it’s Gut or whatever, is the challenge, so you can annihilate it.

Alternatively, the pharmaceutical treatments are things like Prednisone which is a drug version of the Cortisol from the Adrenals, because you don’t have it.

Jeff: That’s massively prescribed, isn’t it?

Matt: Yeah.  Well, that’s the main one because it’s the most well understood, and because it’s compensating for a Hormone that is Deficient in your body.  That’s why I keep going back to it, if we can rebuild that Hormone in our body we’ll be able to control it, you don’t need the Prednisone.

Jeff: Makes sense.

Matt: But, otherwise they use more intense drugs that actually poison the Immune System in an attempt to destroy the Immune System to protect the body from it.

Jeff: Geez.

Matt: Sulfasalazine and Methotrexate, that sort of stuff.

Those sorts of drugs are very aggressive, but sometimes you’ve got to do it because if you don’t control that High-Grade Inflammation the amount of damage that can be done in such a short period of time can almost be irreversible.  So, sometimes you’ve got to get in and do it aggressively, and there’s no harm treating the cause while you’re managing the conditions.  Just keep focusing on looking for the cause.


Jeff: Right.  Can we move on to Gout?

Matt: Hell yeah.  Because, Gout can also Trigger a High-Grade Inflammation.  So, Gout is a good one because it’s a bit of each.  What Gout is, is it’s a build-up of Uric Acid.  Now, Uric Acid – you would have seen Uric Acid on blood tests and that when they measure your Kidney Function and everything.  Uric Acid is a waste product that builds up, it’s very Acidic and it is water soluble.  What happens is, it can form Kidney Stones, and this might be a bit of my theory too, and I should put in a disclaimer, but because Uric Acid has the ability to form Kidney Stones, and if you get Kidney Stones and you wreck your Kidneys that can kill you, so the body shoves the Uric Acid as far away as it possibly can, which is in the extremities.

So, what happens is, if you get a build-up of Uric Acid in your Feet, for example, and you become Dehydrated then this water soluble Uric Acid that was dissolved in the water part of your body all of a sudden crystallises, and it does that often in a Joint, and typically the big Toe is the biggest area.  In that area what happens is, this water-soluble salt was floating around within the Synovial Fluid, but you got Dehydrated and then it crystallised, and it forms like shards of glass, and it does that inside an actual Joint, and it can even do it enough to deform the Joint, it can actually dislocate a Toe.  And, we usually get the Dehydration and the build-up when we’re not moving, so often people will be asleep and then wake up and their Toe is just totally deformed.

Otherwise, if it’s on the outside of the Joint you can see it in some people, it looks like little grains of rice, you can actually see it build up on the outside of the Joint, it looks like rice the skin and inside the Synovial Fluid, and it is actually Uric Acid crystals, and that forms Gout.

Jeff: Wow.

Matt: Then, to get rid of the crystals it sends the Immune Cells in, so it Triggers a type of Autoimmune Reaction in order to remover the Crystals.  So, the Immune System has to break down the crystals, and that High-Grade Inflammation that comes from the Immune System attacking the crystals is what causes the aggressive pain in Gout.

Interestingly, if you treat it aggressively, if you go really aggressively and try to strip the Uric Acid out, it makes it worse because your Immune System is primed up, everything is getting liberated, it’s having to work too hard, and it’s actually the Inflammation from the Immune System trying to remove the crystals that causes the High-Grade Inflammation, otherwise the crystals are causing a Low Grade Inflammation, pain and dysfunction.

But, what’s really interesting about Uric Acid, in particular, is it goes to the Joints and it is water soluble.  So, what happens it causes Swelling and Fluid Retention, you know, Swollen Fingers and Hands, but also Elbows, Knees, Ankles, and especially Lower Back.


Now, with bodybuilders when they want to get really good definition in through their Muscles, especially in the Lower Back it’s one of the biggest challenges to get that Christmas Tree popping out –

Jeff: Dehydrate.

Matt: Yeah, and also around the Elbows, in particular, because they can see all the origins and insertions of all the Muscles.  And, in the Armpits, weird things like that, if you can take the Fluid out of those little hidy-hole areas it makes all the Muscles look bigger and better and more defined, and it gives you that dry hardness that everyone is chasing.

But, Uric Acid is an interesting one, because most people when they see that Fluid doesn’t want to move they jack up Diuretics and they use higher doses of Diuretics.  Diuretics are designed to strip Sodium out, and when the Sodium goes out it takes water with it.  And, this is the catch, this is an important thing for bodybuilders and that, or anyone that’s using Diuretics to make themselves look good for comp and that, the Diuretics will strip out the Sodium.  One mechanism your body can use if you’re Deficient in Sodium is it preserves Uric Acid, because Uric Acid can act like a Salt, it irritates Nerves to induce Muscle contractions, but it also holds Fluid like Salt does.  So, what happens, if you’re using a Salt, a moduretic type thing, to strip the Fluid out you’re stripping the Salt out and it’s actually making the Uric Acid stay.  Then people go, “The Fluid’s not changing, I’m going to take more,” and then they cut back on water and what happens when you cut back on water it’s more likely to crystallise, they get Kidney Stones or Joint pain and Knee pain, and all of a sudden, they’ve got all these weird migrating pains and they can’t train.

It’s very important to strip out that Uric Acid when you are getting ready for comp.  Now, the things that make Uric Acid are interesting too, because Uric Acid is made from breaking down Meat or Protein, so if you’re eating a lot of Protein you’re going to have extra Uric Acid.  But, it’s also your Meat.  When you’re training you’re breaking down your own Meat within your body and it’s liberating Uric Acid.  So, eating Protein and training – then the other things they talk about, which aren’t as related to our bodybuilding listeners, but the other causes of Uric Acid are things like Alcohol, binging on Shellfish, and that sort of stuff.  They talk about it as the Disease of Gluttony, because it’s everything nice, like Alcohol, Red Meat, Chocolate – oh, not Chocolate, I just threw that in because I like it.  But yeah, Red Wine, Alcohol, Seafood, Red Meat, they all make Uric Acid, but in the real world so does Protein Powder, so does Exercising, so does Dehydration and all those sorts of things, it strips it out.

Jeff: Wow.

Matt: It’s on your blood test.  Anyone that has a blood test where they do the Kidney Function test they’ll measure the Uric Acid, and they have a range, if it’s outside the range they’ll probably say, “You’re at high risk for Gout,” but, it’s so common for it to be out of range.  They don’t comment unless you say, “I’ve got pain,” but you could be just inside the range and they don’t treat it.


The way we treat it, I may as well tell you, you’ve got to strip the Uric Acid out but with specific Diuretics that target Uric Acid.  Celery Seeds.

Jeff: And, Sodium sparing, correct?

Matt: Yeah, and you need a lot of water and you still need some Slat otherwise you can’t strip out the Uric Acid if you’re Deficient in Sodium.

So, Celery Seed, Hibiscus –

Jeff: Juniper?

Matt: Juniper Berries, yeah.  Celery is a bit mare flavoured but Hibiscus is nice, Juniper is nice, Rose Hip granules are very good for the Inflammation associated with it, and Devil’s Claw.  It’s bloody horrible, it’s horrid, but if you make a tea out of those and put enough of the Hibiscus and Rose Hip and Juniper you don’t taste the others.  And, the good thing is, you’re also drinking it, and you can sip on it all day, you have that cold, so you can fill up your water bottles.  Even that Hibiscus, man, if you go and buy Hibiscus flowers, if you did nothing else but get Hibiscus flowers and some Celery Seed and just throw them in your water bottle, even if it’s not hot water it will infuse through and you can be sipping on that all day instead of sipping on water.

Jeff: Nice.

Matt: Or, flavoured Aminos.  You’d be better off sipping on a Herbal Tea that’s stripping this stuff out because the flavoured Aminos, if you’re coming into comp and you’re sipping on flavoured Aminos you’re more likely to build up Uric Acid.  But, if you sip on something like Hibiscus and Celery Seed Tea you pee a lot but it gets out.

Jeff: Cool.  Matt, Nerve Pain, Neuralgia?

Matt: Well, this is another thing, people will often go, “I’ve got these major Joint Pains,” but it can be just a pinched Nerve.  Just be aware that a lot of Frozen Shoulder issues and that sort of stuff can be Nerve Pain from the Neck.  A lot of Hip and Knee Pain can actually be referred from the Lower Back, so don’t always assume that you’ve got a degenerating Joint, go back and do a holistic thing and see if there is another cause for that Joint to shut down.

Jeff: That’s obviously where getting second, third, fourth opinions is important, especially if you’re going to have surgery because the worst thing you could do is to have surgery when it’s actually something to do with your Neck, when you’re having Shoulder surgery when you don’t need to.

Matt: Man, there are some really interesting – I don’t know if these are theories, I did read something about it once, but it’s quite fascinating to see how many people who have Neck pain and they get X-ray and they’ve got degeneration of the Discs and that sort of stuff.  It’s the same with the Lower Back, they say, “You’ve got pain so we’ll do an X-ray.  Degeneration of the Discs, that’s what’s causing your pain.”

They did a thing where they went and X-rayed people without pain, and found they also had all this degeneration in the discs in the Lower Back and in the Neck.  The difference is, the statistics and all that stuff, the people who go in with pain are the ones who typically get X-rayed, and then they go through and say, “Well, we found pain in this, and they’re causing each other.”  When they did some scientific studies, like a double-blind sort of thing, and said, “Hang on, these people have got exactly the same X-ray and no pain,” you know what I mean.

The reason why I’m saying that is because, like what you said with surgery, so for example if someone has surgery on their Frozen Shoulder they’re going to do all these scans on your Frozen Shoulder.


But, if you’ve had any sort of chronic Inflammation and pain your body is going to Calcify the area as a compensation mechanism or just as a biproduct of Inflammation which is Calcification.  But, also your body will seize it up to stop you from using it.  They’ll go and X-ray it and they say, “Man, look on this X-ray or the MRI, we can see all these different things here that we can treat with surgery that are causing your Frozen Shoulder,” but what doesn’t show up is any Nerve impingement.

Jeff: Mm.

Matt: The reason I’m saying this is, so they can justify surgery because there are things in there to operate on, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what’s causing your pain.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s a big one.  Anyway.  So, what else, Matt?

Matt: We’ve covered Calcifications there as well, but the other thing I wanted to mention that is becoming more common is Skeletal Fluorosis.

Jeff: What’s that?

Matt: Well, it’s Fluoride build up on the end of the Bones.  So, what’s happening is, we’ve got a lot of Fluoridated water going around.

Jeff: Is that the white specks that happen on your teeth?

Matt: Yeah, the same and a very similar thing can happen on your Bones, it makes your Bones get really brittle, even your Teeth.  It makes your Bones go really brittle but it also causes this weird hard Calcification, like a Calcium Fluoride build up on the ends of your Bones that causes a lot of Spurs and that.  They call it Skeletal Fluorosis.  The people who at highest risk for it are especially the teetotallers,  because you get a lot of Fluoride out of Tea.

Jeff: Do you?

Matt: Especially Ceylon Tea.

Jeff: Really?  I was drinking a bit, my sister dropped some off the other day and I was drinking a whole heap of it.

Matt: Yeah, and that’s why I’m bringing it up.


No.  What happens is, the Fluoridation of the water is specifically designed for babies and children to get Fluoride for the purpose of strengthening Teeth.

Jeff: We did have a debate about the type of Water to drink

Matt: You will anyway, so we’re not going to talk.  Let’s have a Podcast on Fluoridated water.

Jeff: (Sighs)

Matt: No, let’s not.  But, anyway.

Jeff: How the Nazis used to control the population?

Matt: La la la.  Anyway.  So, basically what happens here in Australia, in particular, is all the oldies love to sit around with a cup of Tea, they don’t have any problems with – well, half of them don’t have teeth so they don’t need to worry about bloody Fluoride getting into their Teeth, do they?  But, they’re not the target market for the Fluoridated water, they’re the highest risk group for Fluoridated water.  And, they’re the group that can’t afford the bloody filters, they’re the ones who don’t read up all the quackery conspiracy theories because, “The government wouldn’t do anything that’s not perfect.”  But also, they’re the ones that sit around with a pot of Tea all day made out of tap water, so they’re sitting there sipping on tap water and cups of Tea all day, overdosing on Fluoride, their Nutrient level and everything else is so low that, that percentage of Fluoride intake is so significant in that particular group that it can deposit on Bones and cause a form of Arthritis called Skeletal Fluorosis.

Jeff: It makes them brittle, they fall over, the break their Hip, the next thing –

Matt: You probably won’t see the white specks on the Teeth because they don’t own them.

Jeff: No.  But, that’s interesting, Matt, so the brittleness in Bones can come too that could be part of it.

Matt: Yeah.  Have you seen this big surge in Osteopenia?


Jeff: Well, I haven’t personally.

Matt: Haven’t you?  Well you need to read some of my books.

Jeff: Medical journals.

Matt: So, Osteopenia is not quite Osteoporosis, it’s just that at your age your Bones aren’t as good as what they’d hoped, but you’re not diagnosed with Osteoporosis.  There is a massive problem with it in the world at the moment, so many people getting fractures from brittle Bones.  They were blaming a lot of the Osteoporosis medications and those sorts of things.

Jeff: Not enough Calcium.  You know, “You need more.”

Matt: No, it’s the opposite now, they’re saying it’s too much Calcium and not enough of the Cofactors, everything is getting brittle, and too many of these weird drugs, Vitamin D analogues that stop the shaping and the modelling of the Bone and just focuses on deposition of Calcium is causing brittle Bones and causing them to break.  It would be interesting to see if the Skeletal Fluorosis is also linked in with all these brittle Bones and fractures.

Jeff: So, maybe we’ve got some people out there, at the moment, Matt, who are maybe a little bit older and they’re having their cups of Ceylon Tea with their tap water.  What should they do, stop drinking Tea?

Matt: Oh, probably filter the water, take the Fluoride out of the water and make a cup of Tea with that.

Jeff: Yeah.  Maybe go with an English Tea, would that be better?

Matt: Yeah, Ceylon Tea is the worst, but you could go for one of the Herbal Teas or something.  I don’t know, man, because they do these things –

Jeff: You don’t want to get beaten up by a bunch of old grannies with their walking sticks, do you?

Matt: No.  Last time that happened it was embarrassing.


But no, I don’t know.  Yeah, just avoid the bloody Fluoride.

Jeff: There you go.

Matt: Another Joint problem that’s no so much a Joint problem is imbalance in Muscle Tone.  Very common problems are Frozen Shoulders and Knees and that.  We’ll talk about Knees for a second, it’s easier; a lot of people have extra tone and tension on the lateral part, on the outside of their legs, the ITB Band, Tensor Fasciae Latae, Sciatica –

Jeff: If you want to know if it’s tight just rub a roller down the outside of it.

Matt: The trigger point, and everyone is different, everyone has a different Trigger point for that ITB Band.  When you’re standing up straight and you drop your hands down the side and where the tip of your finger sits on the side of your leg that’s your Trigger point.

Jeff: Wow.

Matt: So, everyone’s is different, it can be all the way from – like my wife, her knuckles drag on the ground, her trigger point – no, trouble.  (laughs)

Jeff: Yeah, you’re in trouble.  Say hello to the ape woman for me.

Matt: Yeah. (laughs) “Grrr,” there she goes again.  “No one understands you bear woman.”

Jeff: She Bear.

Matt: She Bear, that’s it.  There she goes again.

What was I talking about?  Oh yeah, so these Muscles on the outsides of the legs they actually anchor into the side of the Kneecap, and they can pull the Kneecap to the side.  Your Kneecap has a little groove in the back of it that’s supposed to line up into the groove on your leg to make sure that your Kneecap doesn’t pop around to the side, and it’s supposed to be anchored onto the other side with your Medial Muscles, so the Medial Quadratus and that.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s the tear shaped drop?


Matt: Exactly.  So, what happens, if people have Lower Back problems, or too much tension on the outside of their legs then it will pull the Kneecap to the side, they start getting crazy Knee pain, “It’s so much worse when I squat, I can’t squat anymore, and I can’t squat beyond a 90-degree angle on my legs because Knees hurt.  That’s all when you’ve got too much tension on the outside it pulls your Kneecap to the side and behind your Kneecap becomes inflamed, and you also then struggle to activate your Medial Quads and everything like that.

Jeff: Wow.

Matt: So, the way to treat that is to change the way you train, work with your personal trainer to watch when Muscles become activated, and try to fire up those different little Muscles, bring the Kneecaps back into line.

Jeff: Stretching.

Matt: Stretch out the outside, do the Trigger Points.

Jeff: An ITP Roller, Deep Tissue Massage.

Matt: Even just lie flat on your back and let your feet just it naturally, you can see where they sit, and if you’ve got really tense outside they’ll just fall to the sides, and you’ll often see that one side will fall out worse than the other and you can see which side has the most tension.

Jeff: Is that, right?  I can tell, people are lying down on the carpet right now, Matt.

Matt: Yeah.  A few are probably doing it on treadmills hitting that Trigger Point on the side of their leg.

Jeff: Don’t fall off the treadmill.

Matt: So, if you do have one of those feet that flop out to the side, and by the way if you’re confused with what I’m talking about I’m doing hand gestures right now to clarify this –

Jeff: That doesn’t really work on Podcasts, Matt.

Matt: (laughs) But, if your foot is falling to the side when you’re lying flat on your back that’s usually the really tight side, and then what you do is your hit that Trigger Point on the stripe of your pants, down the side of your leg where your hand falls, and your foot will just sit back up a bit.  If you see symmetry in your feet then go and squat again and see what happens, things change, and can change really, really quickly with Trigger Points.

Jeff: So, it’s obviously not just for the weight lifters, but for anybody.  If they’re finding that their feet are falling off to the left or the right go and get it treated.

Matt: Yeah.  People who walk around in circles and keep banging into the same wall all the time.  You might have the same problem.

Jeff: Muscle Fascia and CT

Matt: Yeah.  So, that’s the thing, any of those sorts of Muscle Tension they can create Joint Pain but you’ve got nothing wrong with your Joint, so don’t go and focus all your efforts into Joint stuff when it’s actually a structural thing.

So, you see with this, it’s important to get a Holistic Diagnosis.

Jeff: Yeah.  Bloody oath.

Matt: Frozen Shoulder is very similar with all that stuff we’ve talked about.  Frozen Shoulder is typically a combination of a Nerve Pinch, Calcifications and Muscle Fascia damage.  So, you need a Holistic approach to treat the Frozen Shoulder.  If anyone debates you need a Holistic approach to treat a Frozen Shoulder just have a look at an Anatomy Physiology diagram when the skin is removed off the Rotator Cuff and see how complicated that little Joint is.

Jeff: Nerve endings and everything in there.

Matt: Mate, everything goes under and slides.  It’s amazing.

Jeff: The Shoulder is a pretty incredible thing.  And, Bursitis, a lot of people do suffer from Bursitis, so what’s the go with that?

Matt: Oh hell yeah.  It’s so common.  A Bursa is a little sack that holds Fluid around your Joint to lubricate the Joint.  The sack itself has little Pressure Receptors in it and it will determine how much Fluid is inside the Joint based on those Pressure Receptors.

But, this is the problem; Bursa are very easily damaged by Trauma, like you fall on your Knee or you bash it or whack it, you can easily damage the Bursa.


Jeff: It’s also in your Shoulder too, correct?

Matt: Yeah.  Most Joints have it to a certain degree even if it’s not around the whole Joint, but the Knee one is the easiest one, the obvious one to see the changes in.  You know how people talk about Fluid on the Knee and that, that’s just a busted Bursa.  If you get damage to a Bursa the Fluid leaks out.  The Receptors on the inside of the Bursa are then saying, “The Fluid pressure is dropping, we must have no Fluid,” so it makes more.

Jeff: It makes more.  I had a mate of mine and he had a great physique, but he had this massive camel Knee just on one side.

Matt: Yeah, it’s stupid eh?  It just keeps pumping out this Fluid, and the problem is you’ve got to try to heal the Bursa.

Jeff: Can you stitch it up, or what is the deal?

Matt: It’s a bit hard, it’s a little sack made of really weak stuff, it just rips and tears really easily.  It’s made of Connective Tissue, so typically we would rebuild it with the same stuff we build the other stuff with, but you’ve got to get rid of the Inflammation and the Trauma, and you’ve got to get rid of the Swelling to fix the Swelling, because if you can’t get rid of the Fluid you can’t heal any of that.

Jeff: You can’t get in there.

Matt: I’ll tell you the trick to get rid of the Fluid.  You get these things called Washing Soda.  In Australia it’s called Washing Soda, it’s easier to find in regional communities because it was made to put in the hard water to get the stuff to lather up, but it’s a Sodium Carbonate crystal.  Lectric Soda, without the E, like Lectric Soda, so look for that stuff, and if you find them get the biggest crystal you can find, you’ve got to try and find really big crystal rock sorts of things of this Washing Soda.  You get it and you put it inside a pillowcase and tie a knot in the top, and you can just put that pillowcase on top of your Knee that’s full of Fluid, or on top of your swollen Ankle or Foot, or whatever it may be, just let it sit there, you don’t have to strap it up or anything like that, and the Fluid gets sucked into the Washing Soda and you get this crusty stuff, it just takes the Fluid.  Your Knee wills start looking like a scrotum, all this loose skin and wrinkly skin because it’s all be stretched and then the Fluid goes.

Jeff: Sound like something to look forward to.  Anyway, keep going. (laughs)

Matt: (laughs) I started imagining it, that would be really weird.  I’m never going to kneel down and do the gardening ever again.  (laughs)

Jeff: No.

Matt: So anyway, you put the Washing Soda on and it can take the Fluid away, and you can just fall asleep with it, just make sure it’s not wrapped around something that’s going to cut off your circulation; it’s a great trick.  Then, what you do is you just keep recycling the Washing Soda and washing your pillowcases because they go all yuk and crusty from the ‘Fluidy’ stuff.  When your crystals become fine and small they’re no good, they’ve got no pulling power, buy a new lot.

Jeff: So, that’s treating –

Matt: That’s just sucking Fluid out.

Then, how do you heal it?

Matt: Then, basically, you’ve got to in and treat the Inflammation and support the Connective Tissue production.  Typically, with feeding with Connective Tissue.  Now, all of these things to regenerate Cartlidge and Connective Tissue and Ligaments, typically we eat the Nutrients that they need to grow those things.  The easiest way to do that is to eat Connective Tissue Cartlidge, Ligaments and everything.


Jeff: Bone broths and all that sort of stuff?

Matt: Yeah, bone broths and tripe and the Connective Tissue sorts of things, and Vietnamese Pho and all those sorts of things.

Jeff: Toni’s got some bone broth kicking on the kitchen bench, it’s been up to five days; she using a hot pot for that.

Matt: Yeah, doing all that sort of stuff and load up.  Vegans don’t want to eat that.  But, what animals eat to build their Cartlidge, the Vegan animals –

Jeff: Animals.

Matt: No, they eat things called Mucopolysaccharides which are these particular long complex Sugar Chains that are found in Nature that can be used to make Glycosaminoglycans.

Jeff: Easy for you to say.

Matt: GAGS.  So, the best Mucopolysaccharides out there for the purpose of this are things like Oats and Slippery Elm Bark.  Interestingly, they’re the things that we use Naturopathically to heal the Gut Wall and the Mucosa, which is also Connective Tissue, so it’s pretty cool.

Jeff: It is.

Matt: Things like Slippery Elm Bark are really good because they stop a lot of Inflammation coming out of your Gut.

Jeff: And, again going back to earlier, that’s going to obviously help with a lot of those issues so your body can focus on healing itself.

Matt: Yeah, exactly.  So, that’s the way we rebuild the Cartlidge is we fuel the Cartlidge to grow.  Everything else is controlling Inflammation, like looking for your sources of Inflammation and controlling it, and then controlling your Hormonal Profile so that you’re capable of regulating your Inflammatory Cascade and your Immune Profile.

Jeff: So, again, producing good Testosterone from the Ovaries and from the Testes, the Gonads, but also looking after your Adrenals as well.

Matt: Yeah.  But, you need a balance, for these sorts of things, because Hormones have a significant effect in switching the Immune System as well.  So, if your Hormones are out of balance you might have one Hormone, a very high powerful Anti-Inflammatory Hormone like Testosterone that you might be putting into the mix, Exogenously, so you might be doing some HRT with Testosterone.  But, if you’re doing just that you’ll find all of a sudden you might get some relief and that sort of stuff, but then things can go bad again because if you’re not balancing out your Hormonal Profile you can’t control the Immune Profile, so you can get imbalance between different types of Immunity and that can eventually lead to more Inflammation and more problems.

Jeff: It’s funny, I was talking to a friend of mine, Mitch, over in the States about this as well, and he’s a bit older now and he’s started using Sustanon 250s, and taking about 1 ml a week.  I talked to him about that, I said, “You need to make sure the ratios of your Testosterone are actually going down the right Pathways because otherwise you’ll get good results but you’ll be tempted to take more because you think that it might start waning off a bit.”  Whereas, if you’re using something that’s going to shape that Hormonal Cascade like you can with the ALPHA MARS or the PRIME, you’re going to be able to maintain a smaller dose and get the same benefits.

Matt: Yeah, that’s right.  It’s a matter of regulating the Hormonal Ratios.  The amounts of Hormones aren’t as important as the Ratios between them.

Jeff: Yeah, you say that a lot.

Matt: And, you find that with a lot of stuff in the human body, it’s all about balance.  That’s a big part of it.  The Naturopathic way of treating these things is always trying to treat the cause.


Oh, just before I go on, the only other forms of Inflammation Joint Pain that I want people to be aware of, because most people go, “I’ve got a sore Joint, if I didn’t roll it, if I didn’t sprain it, injure it –

Jeff: We’ve got to be careful of saying, “Did you roll your Joint?”

Matt: (laughs) I’m not real good at it.

But, unless it’s an injury – what the hell was I just talking about?  How is that, I just started talking about Joints and my short-term memory went?


That’s right.  I’m even pointing at it.  So, Lipitor –

Jeff: Statins?

Matt: Statin Drugs are one of the most commonly prescribed drugs on earth.  One of the side effects of them is crazy Pain, and typically Muscle Pain but it causes a lot of weird arse Joint Pain as well.  So, just be aware of that because it’s something you can ask people when they’re suffering from this Pain, and they may not have considered that that is a side effect of the treatment.  And, the things that we use Naturopathically to treat the Pain associated with Statins is Shilajit, CoEnzyme Q10 and Branch Chain Amino Acids.

Jeff: The Branch Chain Amino Acids is one that you’ve said because I know that your Dad’s using a Statin at the moment.  That was mind blowing, Matt.  I think a lot of people out there that are on Statins might want to start taking some Branch Chains.

Matt: I know, and it’s good because it doesn’t interact.  CoQ10 is cool and it doesn’t interact directly with the Statin medication, but it does interact with other blood thinners, and so often people get put on a multitude of Heart Medication and you can’t use the CoQ10 even though it’s something they desperately need, and that’s why the Shilajit, Branch Chains they’re a good option.

Also, the other thing that causes Joint Pain can just be generalised Swelling, and it’s important for people to know this, because a lot of the other stuff we were talking about is either people that were injured, they’ve got Autoimmunity or something like that, or they’re old and had wear and tear.  But, this type of Swelling and Fluid Retention is what affects most of the young people, the athletes, and it is a form of Arthritis that comes from just generalised Inflammation whether it’s Allergies, Intolerances, Gut Dysfunction.  A common problem is Salicylate Intolerance, a build-up of Salicylates which cause Fluid Retention in the fingers.

Otherwise, people with a sluggish Thyroid they get crazy amounts of Joint Pain, and in particular they get Carpel Tunnel Pain, a lot of wrist pain, and that is purely because they get terrible circulation and no delivery of Nutrients and no taking away of Waste.  So, also look at Circulatory Disorders, so when people are saying, “I’ve got this constant Joint Pain,” and you might find they’re just constantly freezing cold or in pain.

Jeff: So, Matt, I know we’ve got to go through some strategies for treatment now as well, but don’t forget we’ve still got some FAQs.

Matt: Oh man, I’ll be quick.

Jeff: Okay, but not too quick, because people are probably listening to this going, “Yeah, you’ve mentioned me or you’ve mentioned a family member.  What do I do?”

Matt: To cheat we make a product called CAPZEA, but all it is, it’s a pain relief liniment, Capsaicin and a few other compounds, Hypericum and that sort of stuff.  I tell people all the time to be realistic and expect miracles, but when you use this product it will take your pain away, like put it on and it won’t hurt, but it has not fixed it.


So, just be aware –

Jeff: Don’t go crazy, don’t think your superman.

Matt: No, it’s a management thing.  You just put that on so you’re capable of rehabilitating, but you will think it’s fixed it because the pain is gone, but it hasn’t, just keep doing it for rehab.

Jeff: But, there are some cool things in there, Matt, that over time might actually provide a benefit where it makes it better which is the Kunzea.

Matt: The Kunzea and that.  Yeah, the Kunzea is cool because it does breakdown the Calcifications over time, it improves Elasticity and that sort of stuff.

Jeff: So, short term immediate relief, long term, if you use it, can actually be beneficial?

Matt: Yeah.  But, my big point though, is I’ve had so many people say they used the product and then went and hit crazy PB’s, and then they were sore after it.

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: So, focus on your causes of Inflammation regardless of whether it’s a high grade Inflammatory Arthritis or a low grade, there will be sources of Inflammation in your body that you can remove, whether by fixing up your Gut Function, working on Allergies and Intolerances and that sort of stuff.

Jeff: Stress has got to be a major Trigger here, Matt?

Matt: Well, interestingly, Stress does Trigger Inflammatory Cascade, just in the case of Injury and that sort of stuff as part of the Stress Response, but more importantly Chronic Stress is what causes Adrenal Exhaustion.

Jeff: A double whammy.

Matt: Yeah, a double whammy.  Stress will aggravate the problems and make them hurt more, but it will also make you more predisposed to the Low-Grade Inflammation that takes you out later.

Jeff: So, dealing with that, sleep more, smile, take some time out with your family, go watch a movie, relax.  Go watch a comedy.  Don’t go watching a stupid horror films everyone is going to watch, go and watch something that’s going to make you laugh.

Matt: I can’t watch horror movies.

Jeff: The Endorphins you get from having a good laugh – they talk about laughing therapy, it’s so good for you.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff: I’m sure people understand.

Matt: You should see how long it takes us to do a sound check before our Podcast, we’re going to live forever.


Then, the other thing is, build up your Natural Anti-Inflammatories so you don’t have to take the pharmaceutical Anti-Inflammatories that are full of side effects.

Jeff: So, this is what we were talking about before, Matt, anything that improves Testosterone Function, the Gonads –

Matt: Hormones.

Jeff: Then, obviously, looking after your Adrenals.

Matt: But, it’s also about the Hormonal Balance, not just the Hormonal Load, so don’t just try to get more and more Hormones thinking you’re going to get rid of every pr-pre-problem, you’re going to create more.

Jeff: Every pr-pr-problem?

Matt: Pr-pr-pr-problem. With the Adrenal Hormones, if you’ve got Maladaptation and you’re Adrenals are all over the shop, then using a product like CORT RX which is basically Turmeric, Rhodiola, Withania, that sort of thing.  But, if you’re exhausted and you’ve got Arthritis we need to quickly pick up Adrenal Function fast.  In that situation, you don’t want to be doing a slow and steady take the load off it, it will fix itself, you want to actually go through and fuel it.  In those situations, you can purchase Adrenal Gland extract and that sort of stuff –

Jeff: Yeah, that’s cool.

Matt: Not in Australia, but outside of Australia you can purchase Adrenal Gland extract and you can supplement with that.

Jeff: It’s legal in the US.  I think we’ve got as many listeners in the US now as what we’ve got in Australia.

Matt: Yeah, that’s where I get a lot of it, mine all comes in from America.

Jeff: So, you buy it from the States?

Matt: Yeah, I buy it with a personal importation scheme, I purchase Bovine Adrenal Cortex.


I buy that either as a powder or pre-capsulated and then I dose it up at about 250 milligrams at breakfast and 100 milligrams at lunch.

Jeff: If you’re a Vegan?

Matt: Panax Ginseng, Liquorice Root.

Jeff: Nice.

Matt: Liquorice Root is also very good for Arthritis, it’s a Mucopolysaccharide.  It tastes beautiful too, I brought some in.

Jeff: Yeah, those little sticks?

Matt: Yeah, those little twigs.

Jeff: I couldn’t believe it, you were giving me a twig and I thought you were having a go.  I love liquorice too.

Matt: Yeah, but it’s 60 times sweeter than Sugar but it doesn’t affect your Blood Sugar levels.  It has the same chemical structure as Cortisol, so it floats around pretending to be Cortisol and sends a message back saying, “Chill out.”  Well, having the exact chemical structure, that’s probably a better way of explaining it, but it mimics Cortisol’s actions and sends a message back to the Adrenals saying, “Back off, we’ve got it covered, you don’t need to release any Cortisol.”

Then, if you use things like Panax Ginsengs, again the Shilajit and that sort of stuff, you’re actually building up your Adrenal Gland and making it release Hormones.

Jeff: Man, that’s cool.  So, the other thing, Matt, Liquorice sounds awesome but you can’t take too much because it can down regulate –

Matt: Blood pressure.  No, what happens with Liquorice is you can get too much Fluid Retention because it mimics Cortisol, it’s one of the side effects of Cortisol.

Jeff: What about Testosterone levels?  I remember something that it can have a handbrake on Test levels?

Matt: Yeah, it’s a bit of a weird link though, and you’ll be fine for the Adrenals, because seriously, if you get the Adrenals right everything else is going to fix themselves.

Essential Fatty Acid balance is extremely important, so this are your Oils, when we talk about how, ‘Oils ain’t Oils’ and that sort of stuff.  It’s not just Fish Oil, it’s not just Omega 6, there’s no good or bad, it’s again about balance.  I keep going back there.  I just should do Podcasts that say, “Balance, balance, balance.”

Jeff: And, Unsaturated, because Saturated is not the devil, right?

Matt: No, we need a bit of everything otherwise you’d fall over.  I mean seriously, the difference between Unsaturated and Saturated is whether it’s solid or liquid at room temperature.  If we had all liquid Oils at room temperature we’d be all swishy. (laughs)

Jeff: So, obviously things from animals, you’ve got Eggs, Milk, Dairy and that sort of stuff, but Avocados, Salmon, and Nuts.

Matt: Good Omega 3 Oils are very good Anti-Inflammatories.  All the world’s Omega 3 Oil comes out of grass and plankton, so eat animals that eat those if you’re not going to eat the grass and plankton yourself.  So, the Vegans can have the grass and the plankton – oh, the plankton?  They can eat the grass and the vegetable sources of Omega 3 which is a lot of the other plants but not the seeds.  It’s quite funny, a lot of grasses and plants, the leaves and that you squash them and you get Omega 3 Oil, but with the seeds of those same plants you get Omega 6.  That’s why Wheat Grass gives you Omega 3 Oil, but wheat gives you Omega 6 Oil.

Jeff: So, there you go.  For Vegans get into the Wheat Grass, which I think a lot of people do take it.

Matt: I’m going to tell the Vegans the best trick on earth.

Jeff: What’s that?


Matt: Because, there is a study that’s been done on Turmeric which shows that people who consume Turmeric can get higher levels of EPA and DHA in their Brain than people who consume Fish.  It’s interesting because EPA and DHA is Naturally found in Fish and not in Turmeric.  What it is, is because there are these Conversion Pathways that turns all your plant based Oils into the best form that the body uses, so you don’t need Fish Oil to get EPA and DHA, you just need to use the Cofactors, which is the B5, B6, Magnesium and that sort of stuff, so something like our MULTIFOOD product, or a Multi that’s got all those, with Turmeric to force it through, so you can convert your dietary Fatty Acids all the way through to the EPA and DHAs that you want as Anti-Inflammatories.

Jeff: That’s bloody cool.

Matt: Yeah, it is cool, eh?  But, you want to get a big variety of everything, Omega 3, 5, 6, 7, 9.  You want to look for things like Conjugated Linoleic Acid, Conjugated Linolenic Acid, all these things.  That’s why I’m saying, it’s all balanced, it’s not just, “Hey, I found one oil that was good in a study.  If I take all of it I’m going to be fine.”

Jeff: And, again through your Diet is always going to be best instead of supplements, and of course, we’re ATP so we’re biased, but AMP is great because that’s got Omega 3, 5, 7, 9, CLA and CLNA.

Matt: Exactly.  If you took AMP, CORT RX and MULTIFOOD you’ll be feeling better for it.

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: Alright, we talked about the Bone on Bone bit, and basically rebuilding Cartlidge with Cartlidge, so most of it’s been covered now.  Just the other big thing that people need to be aware of is, that it can be temporary.  So, you can get Joint Pains and most of it is acute Inflammation and we treat it with RICE, Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation.  So, any time you get a swollen Joint do these things, they’re a good idea to do, but for the first 48 hours or 72 hours, you just need to be doing the Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation.  If you’ve got a swollen sore Joint start there, and then see what happens.

They keep changing their minds, I don’t know what the last Ice Heat interval thing is.

Jeff: Yeah, 15 minutes I think it is.

Matt: It used to be 45 and then 15 and then it was five and five, and now it’s 10 and 10, I think.  Who knows, but you just play it by ear.

Jeff: Anything else, Matt?  Because, we’ve got to get through some FAQs.

Matt: Well, let’s do some FAQs.

Jeff: Alright, well thanks guys.  Hopefully, that on the Joints, on the roll your own Joints – anyway, it was good, Matt.  There was a lot there for people to consider.

Matt: I love it. Listen twice.

Jeff: Alright.  Here we go.


This one is from Darren-

“Hi guys.”

Matt: Hi Darren.

“I’d love to know Matt’s no BS opinion on Liposomal technology.”

I don’t even know how to pronounce that, let alone what it is.

Matt: No one does.

“Some common examples on Liposomal B12, CoQ10, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, etcetera.”


Matt: Cool.  So, what we’re talking about is creating a little Oily bubble to carry stuff into the body.  Typically, what we use that for are fat soluble things.  So, typically for things like Vitamin C and that, that are water soluble there’s no real benefit from it.

Jeff: Vitamin D, though?

Matt: Vitamin D is Fat Soluble, that can work.  It’s an interesting thing; it’s designed to enhance Bioavailability, to get a systemic delivery of an ingredient, to bypass the Liver and all that, so bypass the Gut.


It’s very important to know, there was a paper published just this year talking about Curcumin, talking about Turmeric, and what they’re basically saying is that Turmeric isn’t as good as everyone thinks, or possibly isn’t.

Jeff: They’re wrong.

Matt: Well sorry, let me say it again; Curcumin isn’t as good as what everyone thinks.  Now, it’s created a bit of debate and confusion out there because a lot of sensationalist journalists have gone out there saying, “Turmeric doesn’t work,” and it was a hoax.  But, the reality of it is, when you read the actual paper that they’re referring to it is saying, “Turmeric does work, Turmeric is fantastic and has been very well proven to do everything that we say it does.”  But, they don’t know how it works.  What they’ve done is, they’ve been studying all of these things.  So, there are all of these companies out there, and no one can patent Turmeric, you can’t own Turmeric, so they’re trying to find something in Turmeric to own and prove that, that component is doing all the work.

What they’ve managed to prove is that these isolated pharmaceutical extractions from Turmeric aren’t Bioavailable and they don’t go into the body.  Now, they’re saying that because they thought that this active ingredient in Turmeric worked this way and now they’ve discovered it doesn’t, they’re going, “Well, Turmeric, what do we do now?”  So, basically, they don’t know how Turmeric works.

The reason why I’m telling you this with regards to this question, is all of these studies revolving around Liposomal forms of Curcuminoids designed to get fast delivery Curcuminoids past the Liver and everything and all over the body, and they’re realising that doesn’t work.  Turmeric actually works by interacting locally in the Gut with the NRF2 Genes locally in the Liver.  You don’t want systemic Bioavailability of Turmeric and you don’t want Liposomal forms of Curcuminoids because you’ll bypass the part of the body where it actually works.

So, to answer your question, Liposomal technology is absolutely genius and brilliant if it’s applied to the right target to be able to deliver a Fat-Soluble component into a Distal part of your body.  But, it’s not for everything.

Jeff: Right.  So, Matt, and I know this might be outside of your scope of expertise, but would you recommend what good it would be for, like Vitamin D?

Matt: The CoQ10 would be a good one, and possibly Vitamin D as well.  Not B12, that’s water soluble, and Vitamin C is water soluble.  It’s funny, a few years ago they had all the Fat-Soluble Vitamins water solubilised to improve their Bioavailability and then they found they didn’t work and they went back to Fat Soluble Vitamins being Fat Soluble.  Now, they’re trying to bring all the Water-Soluble things and make them in a Fat vehicle.  It just doesn’t make sense.

Jeff: But again, Matt, I think they’re trying to outsmart Nature.  And, don’t get me wrong, I love science, that’s part of our name is about science.  It’s about harnessing things in a more holistic way, if you like.


Matt: Yeah, just the right tools.  If we were a Liposomal company we would try to put it on everything.

Jeff: No, but we probably wouldn’t because we’d go, “No, we’re just going to create the best Vitamin D.”  Best VD we can.

Matt: VD, VD.  Isn’t that Venereal Disease?

Jeff: I don’t know what I’m talking about.


This one is from Martin-

Matt: What are you talking about Martin?  He doesn’t have VD.

Jeff: (laughs)

Sorry, Martin, I apologise for my colleague.

“Hi there.  Love the Podcasts.  Nice to hear some non-American accents talking about supplements.”

Well, thank you.  We like our American friends over there.  G’day.

Matt: (laughs)

            “Since moving to Melbourne from Wellington –

Matt: He’s from New Zealand.

Jeff: It’s Cuzzy Bro.  Hey Cuzzy Bro.

“Since moving to Melbourne from Wellington five months ago I’ve been in the process of losing weight, mainly through eating cleanly and exercising a lot, mainly F45 and some strength training.

So far I’ve been getting reasonable results with a loss of about 25 kilos.”

Matt: Struth.

Jeff: That’s not reasonable, Matt, that’s outstanding.

Matt: Fantastic.

“I’m 32, started off at about 150 kilos at about six foot three, with a big old belly.  However, I would like to lose more and was wondering what supplements you would recommend Belly Fat, sustaining Muscle Mass, minimising Loose Skin and avoiding Injury?

            I’ve pretty much taken a ‘cannot find a magic bullet approach to supplements, which I’m worried is less than effective.  I’ve been using a Fat Burner,” Matt, from one company that I won’t mention, “a Protein Powder and ALPHA MARS as I quite like the packaging.”

Matt: Cool.

Jeff: Well, it’s a good place to start and I’ll tell Toni because she’s the brand manager and she works hard on the packaging.

“Are the likes of SUBCUT a good idea when I still have a good amount of Fat to lose?  I’m probably still about 28% Body Fat at the moment, or should I just be sticking to the basics and worrying supplements when I’m at a lower range.”

That’s a really good question.

Matt: It is.

            “Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

            Cheers, Martin.”

Matt, I love questions like this.

Matt: Yeah, it’s a cracker.

Jeff: I think you’re doing an absolutely great job, and look, when you’ve got that amount of Body Fat to lose as soon as you start eating well and as soon as you start exercising, unless there are some severe major Hormonal handbrakes, Matt, and correct me if I’m wrong, you’re going to lose Body Fat.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: And, I would say the majority of your focus should be on eating clean and exercising well, drinking plenty of water, and the small amount of supplements that you’re taking I think is really good.  Yes, they can have – what’s the word I’m looking for, Matt, a cumulative effect – a Synergistic Effect by taking them, they aren’t necessary.  The biggest thing that’s necessary is for you to stay motivated and to stay on track.

Matt: Yeah, exactly.

Jeff: So, you can take more supplements, which might enhance the rate at which you’re losing weight, but all it’s going to do is get you there a little bit faster.


Matt: Yeah.  We’ve got to look at the hierarchy of things; so, you’re going to have a combination of Visceral Fat, which is in around your internal organs that responds very well to Diet and Exercise, and then you’re going to have Subcutaneous Fat that’s isolated under your Skin and hard to budge.  What you’ll find is, you have to get rid of the Visceral Fat first.  If we start targeting the Subcutaneous Fat while you’ve still got Visceral Fat around your organs you’re just going to add to that burden in your Bloodstream and it’s not good.

What you’ll find is, once your Visceral Fat has gone you’ll hit a bit of a plateau and that’s when you can bring in the transdermals and use SUBCUT then.  The only reason I’d recommend that you could use SUBCUT now is more to do with just working on the Skin to stop a lot of that and to improve the elasticity.  But, interestingly, you could even use something like PROTOTYPE 8 for that to improve circulation to different areas.

The whole point of it is, you’ve got to focus on the Visceral Fat first, and what we might need to do is look at things like the Liver and that sort of stuff, which are going to be a major part of your processing these fats, and that will give you some support there.

Jeff: Because, obviously, as you’re oxidising Fat your Liver is working overtime, you’re probably consuming more Protein which is working overtime, you’ve probably got all sorts of Methylation and Sulphation things as well.

Matt: And, Phase 1.  So, Toxic exposure – as you’re liberating 25 kilos of Fat you’re releasing all the Toxins that were stored in those areas, and your Phase 1 of your Liver is involved in Fat Burning as well as Detoxification of the Toxins.  So, what happens is, Phase 1 of your Liver goes really fast and it can contribute to a build-up of stuff half way.

Jeff: Matt, can you just quickly explain Phase 1, Phase 2?

Matt: Phase 1 Pathways of your Liver make Fat Soluble Toxins Water Soluble so you’re capable of eliminating them through your Breath, Urine and Bowel.  Phase 2 deactivates that Toxin so it can effectively just sit there and wait until it leaves and not come back into your body.  But, the more Toxic Exposure you get and the more Fat you’ve had around your Liver in the past the faster the Phase 1 goes.  What that does is it can get in the way of your results because it can cause Fluid Retention, Frustration, Irritability, it can make you feel sick when you’re cutting Calories and that sort of stuff.  So, again, I’d use the Turmeric, so Turmeric and the AMP V are the things I’d actually be looking at to be controlling the way the Liver is processing your Glycogens and all that.

Jeff: Well, because Martin is obviously new to it and he’s getting good results, Martin we’re going to send you out, so you don’t have to buy anything, but you can use these.  But again, are they essential for you to use?  No, they’re not, and you’re getting good results.  Will this help sustain your weight loss journey before you plateau and give you slightly faster results while looking after your general health?  Absolutely, especially the CORT RX, I believe, I think that’s an absolute must, and as Matt said, the AMP is also very good as well.

So, we’ll send you an Acetyl L-Carnitine out, which is fantastic for helping your body to take the Fat that’s liberated into your Bloodstream and actually burn it in your Mitochondria, and that’s how your body actually utilises Fat for Energy, so that’s really good, as well as the AMP and the CORT RX, Matt?

Matt: Yeah.


Jeff: Cool.  Alright, we’ll send that out to you, Martin.  So, I’ll just write that down otherwise it won’t happen.

Alright Matt, next question.


This one is from Matthew-

“Hi gents.  I recently discovered your products and Podcasts.  Love them and it’s honest and to the point.

            I’m a military veteran of 18 years and going strong.  I’ve suffered with Depression, Anxiety, Panic and largely have it under control by the use of a strong Diet, lean Protein, Leafy Greens, the Paleo principles.  Limited processed food, no Alcohol or Gluten and lots of exercise, yoga and breathing.  This continues to work as I refuse the drug route much to many people’s disdain, but I have been drug free since 2011.

            I have experimented with – Matt, I don’t know that product?

Matt: Aniracetam.

Jeff: There you go.

“Aniracetam recently, but now cannot get it and wanted some feedback on the use of ALPHA MARS.  I am currently using INFRARED, which I love, as well as GABA and CREATINE.  Is there something that I may be missing that you would recommend?

I am always learning and share this info as I learn with my mates who also suffer due to our obvious workplace hazards.

Keep up the great work, Matthew.”

By the way guys, obviously I must say this, I think it’s important; if you are suffering from Depression and it’s not diagnosed or you’re not sure, but you’re feeling blue, go and talk to a healthcare practitioner.  There are people out there who are able to help.  I think it’s always important to mention that, Matt.

Matt: Oh hell, yeah.

Jeff: Obviously, Matthew it sounds like you’ve got a lot of support, you understand your disease well, which is great and I think there are some people out there who would find that inspirational, who are going through those dark places themselves.  But look, go get some help, go see your doctor and get that identified and that way they can help to treat it.

But Matthew, a really close friend of mine, he was on Lithium for Bi Polar, he also suffered from Depression, and one of my other really good mates suffers from Depression as well.  One has gone completely off medication and has been following a similar sort of lifestyle to what you’ve done, Matthew, and has managed it extremely well.  My other friend still continues to use medication, so there is not one path here, it’s what works for you as an individual.  But, well done, mate, it sounds like you’re doing a great job.


Matt: It’s interesting because what happens is, part of a Survival Response, after we get everything we need to punch and run.  About 10 seconds later that Cortisol comes back and Cortisol’s job as part of a survival response here is to actually switch off the Stress Response.  The problem is that then another Trigger comes in because you’re a highly trained and in a stressful environment –

Jeff: Combat state.

Matt: Yeah, but even if you’re not in a combat state you’ve been trained for combat state, and your body can’t afford to wait to see what is a life-threatening stress or not.  And, the problem is, you get Cortisol activating negative feedback saying, “Chill out, you’re safe,” and another Trigger comes in and you become trained – see, your training taught you to override Cortisol which is your off switch, it is your negative feedback, which then means for your Cortisol to even register in your Brain your body has to release so much.


The challenge with treating this is, you’ll go through phases of very high Cortisol, which blocks Serotonin causing Anxiety and Depression and where your body says, “I can’t keep pumping out this Cortisol,” and you either go into an exhaustion or a conservation and your Cortisol crashes, and you go into a Depression borne from Apathy.

The problem is, if you were to use an ALPHA MARS or something like that, which would be good in the Fatigue, Down, Apathetic bit to pick you up, but if you’re in the over the top high Cortisol bit then it’s going to be bad for you.  And, it’s a challenge to treat it because the way the Chinese describe it is as an overflowing cup, where you’re either overflowing or there’s nothing left; there’s no middle ground.  So, the challenge in treating it is to fill your cup but not let it overflow.

The way to do that, under supervision, would be to see someone on a very regular basis and teach them how to change Protocols depending on whether they’re up or down.  And, that’s the challenge because most people when you’re feeling up you actually feel cured as well, so you get back in and you really have a good time –

Jeff: Go hard, yeah.

Matt: But, I would be inclined to use our product, CORT RX, but we need to manage the Adrenals, we have to have a sparing effect on it when it’s over and we’ve got to have a rebuilding effect on it when it’s under.  So, send him the MULTIFOOD as well, and the CORT RX.  They’re the two that you need, because it’s going to get you right back in the middle.

Also, look for other things like Magnesium Deficiency.  Because, when you’ve got a Magnesium Deficiency you seem to release a lot more of this stuff, you lose that ability to control that off switch, everything has a bit of an exaggerated reaction, so you can always just – it’s too hard to test for Magnesium Deficiency, so just take some and if you feel better you know it was probably a bit low.

Jeff: Cool.  Any type of Magnesium, Matt, that you’d recommend?

Matt: Chelated Magnesium.  Or, Magnesium Diglycinate would be good, actually, because the Glycine helps work with the GABA, so he’ll probably find just as much benefit from what the Magnesium is attached to so use Diglycinate.

Jeff: And, the amount roughly?

Matt: It depends on your Gut.  Most people can tolerate up to 300 milligrams, but people like me, man, 100 milligrams and I’ve got the green apple splatters.  And, that’s talking about Magnesium, not the Chelated, so for example, Magnesium Diglycinate is about 20% Magnesium and 80% Glycine.

Jeff: So, you could take 500 milligrams easily?

Matt: Yeah, exactly.

Jeff: So, I guess, Matthew, there is a little bit of stuff for you to probably play around with to work out what’s going to work for you, but yeah, try that, and we’ll send you out the CORT RX and the MULTIFOOD, and please let us know.  And, best wishes and I’m glad that things are working for you as well.

Matt: I think somewhere we did a symptom – I know I’ve got it on my computer, but I don’t know if we put it out for everyone.  But, we did a symptom picture questionnaire for the different stages of Adrenal Dysfunction and if we could provide something like that for Matt he could see when his Cortisol is high what sort of symptoms, and then what symptoms when his Cortisol is low.  It’s too much to talk about now, but we can share that information, and go back to our old Podcast talking about Adrenal Mal – what was it Jeff?  Adrenal?


Jeff: Maladaptation.

Matt: (laughs)

Jeff: Shut up.


So, an Adrenal Dysfunction chart, Matt?  We’ll see what we can do.

Okay Matt, we’ve actually run out of time to answer this one, because we’ve got an absolute cracker from Marg for her and her husband from over the ditch in New Zealand, Aotearoa, but unfortunately, we’re going to run out of time, and there’s quite a lot of info there, Matt, so you might need to study up on this one.  So, we’ll come back next week for Marg and we can answer her question in a little bit more detail then.

But anyway, thanks everyone for writing in.  Please keep your questions coming through.  We do apologise that we don’t get to them quicker but we get such a backlog.  We try to answer everything as quickly as we possibly can, and I appreciate that not every question gets read out on the Podcast, but we do get back to you in email form where we can.

But, Matt, thanks for today’s Podcast, it was a good one.

Matt: It was, I know.  Thank you.  Last word, Jeff?

Jeff: Thank you, Matthew.

Matt: Oh, that’s fine.

Jeff: Alright, guys we’ll be back next week with some more.  Until then stay cared –

Matt: Stay what?  Stay care?  Stay care.

Jeff: You know what?  Yeah.

Matt: Just stay care.


Jeff: You’re terrible Muriel.  Alright, until next week.

Matt: Hooroo.