Welcome to the ATP Project, Episode 46, Food Timing for Fat Burning.
In today’s podcast Matt and I discuss understanding the hierarchy of fuel used when training for fat loss.
• AMPK and how does it help burn fat?
• Fasted Cardio and is it really better than non-Fasted Cardio?
• Meal Timing to stop Catabolism and Aid Muscle Growth.
• Supplements to use to Maximise Fat Burning and when to use them.
• FAQs and a whole lot more.
Stay tuned the ATP Project is about to start.
Welcome to the ATP Project, you’re with your hosts Matt and Jeff.
Jeff: Matt, we’ve been talking about Fat Burning a bit lately.
Jeff: Last week we spoke about Hepatothermic. Did I get it right?
Matt: Yes, nice work.
Jeff: Excellent. So, this week we’re going to be talking about Maximising Fat Burning through AMPK, AMP-K, that’s what the cool kids call it.
Jeff: And, it’s basically a version of the first one, because that’s just one strategy for burning fat, and there are lots of strategies for burning fat. This title though will probably catch a few people’s attention. So, you’re going to summarise and also expand upon some of the understanding we have around Fat Burning according to the research that you’ve been looking at.
Jeff: And, there are some key things, that you think, Matt, where we can shed light and help people with, “When is the best time to train,” “What type of training should I be doing?” “What about Macro Nutrients?” “When should I be eating?” all that sort of crap. And, the stuff that not only the average person wants to know to maximise their Fat Burning, but maybe some tips and tricks, and the reason why people who are getting good results are probably getting them, from a theoretical point of view.
Matt: Well, interestingly the more research I do the more I realise that we’ve got to go back to the basics and get a good understanding of the basics before we try to get too clever. People like Michael Galli, I chat to him all the time about what the Pros do, and the Pros do the old school stuff, they don’t do a lot of the new strategies of extreme bits and pieces, they kind of trust a process and know when to chop and change.
So, when I’m going through the research there’s some basic stuff that is well known and well proven that we can utilise. But, understanding why these things work in some people and why they don’t work in other people, and knowing when to chop and change, that’s the challenge.
Jeff: Because, the body is an Adaptive Mechanism.
Matt: Well, that’s the big thing.
Jeff: So, you’ve got to keep mixing up.
Matt: Exactly. And also, because we’re an Adaptive organism, because we’re all so different that’s why there is so much research out there, there are so many different strategies that all work for a particular person for a particular period of time.
Jeff: More than one way to skin a cat?
Matt: Yeah. Well, as part of the research process you’re trying to see what people are doing and what works, and you notice a few different types of testimony, or something. For example, a lot of people out there are doing Diet Strategies without exercise, you see a lot of these companies don’t want the legal or the insurance issues about trying to encourage people to exercise so they’re providing Diet Strategies and saying, “Don’t exercise.”
Jeff: Yeah, VLC diets, Very Low Carb diets, and I mean that’s one way. But, then again, the body adapts and yoyo dieting, that’s where that term came from, right?
Matt: Exactly. And, then you’ve got the other guys, and people, through Google or word of mouth they’re seeing all these testimonials about these HCG diets and these low calorie diets and everything like that.
Jeff: What’s HCG diet?
Matt: It’s the Pregnancy Hormone, where they tell them to go 500 calories and inject or inhale the Pregnancy Hormone to trick the body into thinking you’re starving and pregnant, so you better liberate your stored fat.
Jeff: Bloody hell.
Matt: The problem is, they burn Muscle first, and it does all sorts of weird stuff. Those sort of things are usually just found through Google searching or word of mouth. Then, you get the group that do the exercise without the diet, which is, basically, “I just joined a gym.” So, they’ve joined a gym and they’re hooking in and they’re telling everyone how great they are and, “If you exercise hard enough you don’t have to worry about food,” and that works for certain people for a certain period of time.
Jeff: I had a girl that used to work for me, and she was a Cardio Instructor, she used to take all the classes, and seriously, her breakfast was Ferrero Roche.
Jeff: And, she was lean, but again…
Matt: Yeah, there’s that school of thought that thinks exercise without—it doesn’t matter what you eat if you exercise hard enough. And, there are certain people that works for, and of course, there are certain people that it doesn’t. Then there is the diet and the exercise strategy which is usually when they’ve done those first three options, and then they met a PT that came in and said, “No, seriously, you need to combine a bit of diet and exercise.”
Jeff: Well, that’s synergistic, it only makes sense.
Matt: Some people are doing the supplementation alone without the diet and exercise, which is basically I met mine while shopping.
Jeff: I’m looking for the magic bullet and some sales person said, “This all you need to do.”
Matt: Then, there’s this weird group that listen to the ATP Project that combine diet, exercise and supplementation with a strategy and work with a professional to know when to chop and change between the different diet and supplemental strategy. That’s what it actually takes to get the consistent results.
Jeff: I think that’s optimum. And again, it depends on your goals, if you’re trying to shed 10 kilos and you’re not looking at competing then getting some good advice, eating well, going for your walks and training and utilising good supplements to make sure your Hormonal Profile is there, that your body is actually able to access the fat, that’s all that person needs. We’re not saying that you need to go and get a PT for that, it all comes down to your goals and what it is that you’re trying to achieve.
Matt: Yeah, exactly. It’s quite interesting, too, a lot of the research—when I’m reading through the research it’s quite weird. If you want to create a drug or a treatment or a medication or something like that, that corrects obesity, in a lot of the trials you’re not actually allowed to do on obese people.
Jeff: That’s nuts.
Matt: So, they have to do it on healthy trained athletes with a certain body fat percentage and show that it will cause them to lose weight, thereby allowing them to make a claim that it actually has anti-obesity effects. It’s weird, you can’t make an anti-obesity claim based on research on obese people.
Jeff: I mean coming to mind, obviously there’s Hormonal Profiles, Insulin Resistance, there’s all sorts of things that would be different.
Matt: Exactly. So, we’ve got to look at all these sorts of things when we’re creating a strategy. But, anyway, there are some really, really cool things in regards to Fat Burning that I want to go through, but the basics I want to cover first. Some people might find this as a bit of a refresher.
Jeff: But, there is some cool stuff here as too, Matt, that we’ve never spoken about before.
Jeff: So, just if you think, “Okay, we’ve heard this before,” no.
Matt: Oh, no, no, this is cool, man, seriously. A lot of these things we just kind of forget because we get too complicated, we get too deep into these things. So, basically, I want to talk about how we use different types of fuel through exercise.
Jeff: Okay. I mean you’ve spoken a little bit about why people go to the gym or what people’s thought processes are, diet only, or exercise only, or diet and exercise, or then supplementation, then a PT, and blah, blah.
So, when I was working at my retail supplements store I used to see all those people coming through, a lot coming through for the magic bullet, which again, just doesn’t exist, there’s no such thing.
Jeff: But Matt, the biggest debates that I see that people talk about are, Fasted Cardio, High Intensity Cardio versus Steady State Cardio, and I know we’ve said before both are good, and again, because we’re an Adaptive Mechanism, but can you break down the science of that? And, you’re also looking at Food Timing, and again, Fasted Cardio first thing in the morning is that really beneficial rather than training at night? What about doing small and regular meals, all that sort of stuff, Matt? Again, we’ve touched on it, we’ve broken it down, so if you can collaborate all that together and talk about some of the research that you’ve got then.
Matt: Alright. So, let’s talk about meal timing first then, regarding Fasted Cardio. The definition of Fasted, for starters, Fasted, in the scientific community means that you haven’t consumed a meal containing Carbohydrates and that within about four hours prior to the exercise.
Jeff: Does it also include Proteins and Fats? Surely. Would it be a Macro Nutrient?
Matt: It does. It does.
Jeff: But, you’re thinking for this that there is a bit of a…
Matt: No, in the research they’re basically showing a lot of it is the Carbohydrate and that sort of stuff, because when we’re talking about it in regards to being in a Fasted State we’re talking about being in a Carbohydrate Deficit with the Glycogen Depletion, the Lower Blood Sugars and that sort of stuff, and Low Insulin. Okay? So, they’re the signals that Insulin hasn’t been secreted, and that’s the way they define whether you’re in a Fasted State prior to exercise.
The reason why I’m telling you that, we all say Fasted Cardio is, basically, before breakfast and that sort of stuff, get up in the morning and do your Fasted Cardio. Just for some people that doesn’t fit into their routine, but having a four hour break from meals and then doing the Cardio actually, in the studies, can induce the same response.
Jeff: Really? Do you know if it’s as good, or was there any comparable studies for people who had actually woken up and done Fasted Cardio, so after 12 hours of not eating anything?
Matt: Yeah. There’s one cool study that they did, and it’s only a small study with 10 people in it, but what they did in that, they made them exercise at different stages of the day and calculated their 24-hour Energy Expenditure, so basically calculated their Basal Metabolic Rate for the 24 hours based on different times of the day of exercising. And, what they found was, the only time of the day your exercising induced an increase of Metabolic Rate for the whole 24 hours was before Breakfast.
Matt: So, they found in that small group that training before Breakfast caused a Glycogen—it caused the Carbohydrate Deficit first thing in the morning where it depleted all of the Glycogen in the Muscle and the Liver, well not all of it, but enough of it to improve Insulin Sensitivity and improve the Basal Metabolic Rate. Because, the body wants to replenish that Depleted Glycogen. So, while it’s wanting to replenish that Depleted Glycogen you become Insulin Sensitive, and in fact GLUT4 Transporters actually work independently of Insulin in that situation where they’re craving sugars.
Jeff: Alright, so break down GLUT4 and also Insulin Sensitivity just puts more into…
Matt: Insulin’s job is to take sugar out of your blood, that’s all it cares about. The way it does that is by binding into a Receptor, that causes this vehicle called GLUT4 to translocate to the membrane, and basically it works like a little train. So, the Insulin binds into the Receptor says, “Sugar’s coming,” and GLUT4 are activated to open the door, basically, to allow sugar in.
Matt: During exercise or during a Glycogen Depleted State or during a Fasted State or during a Low Calorie Diet or a Ketogenic Diet, the GLUT4 is constantly activated ready to accept sugar because you’re in a Glycogen Depleted State.
Jeff: Less chance of that sugar being converted to fat?
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. And also, less chance of that thing you’re consuming causing an Insulin Spike. So, it’s quite interesting because they find, for example—and, I’ll probably jump around a little bit here.
Jeff: That’s okay.
Matt: But, the studies where they did post-Training meals where they said, “What do we eat after training?”
Jeff: Are you talking Muscle training, or weight bearing training, or high intensity Cardio?
Matt: It doesn’t matter, after exercise. So, basically, what they found is, you could induce Protein Synthesis equally by supplying Protein with or without Carbs. Because, Insulin is a very Anabolic compound, so Insulin stimulates Muscle growth.
Jeff: More than Testosterone.
Matt: Yeah. So Insulin is a very powerful Anabolic. What happens is, after exercise, when you’re in a Glycogen Depleted State, you don’t need to have that same Insulin Spike, you don’t secrete anywhere near as much Insulin in response to Carbohydrates or non-Nutritive Sweeteners post-exercise as you do before exercise. So, what that basically means is, as studies show, having Protein alone does just the same Protein Synthesis as combing Protein with Carbohydrate post-exercise, because you don’t get the Insulin Spike.
Interestingly, if you have a meal before exercise, and the meal could be anywhere within four hours prior to exercise, it significantly inhibits Fat Loss during that exercise. Because, what happens is, you’re having a meal prior to exercise that stimulate Insulin Secretion, that basically switches off Fat Burning until you’ve burnt through that Carbohydrate. Insulin blocks Carnitine, Palmitoyltransferase. So, imagine this, imagine if that thing you had before exercise was loaded up with Carnitine to be a Fat Burner, or what do they say with Carnitine, “Make fat your primary source of fuel,” or something like that?
Matt: But, if it’s got something that induces Insulin with it, the Insulin is going to block the Enzyme that Carnitine is fuelling to Burn Fat. So, basically, what I’m saying is, anything you consume before training, will lessen the effect on Fat Burning. What’s interesting is, there’s a certain group of people that dispute that, they say, “No, I’ve been doing this forever. I’ve been smashing my Proteins and my Essential Aminos and my Branch Chain Aminos, I’ve been smashing all that sort of stuff forever, before and during training, and look how shredded I am compared to these fat people.” Interestingly, in trained people with low body fat percentage they are Insulin Sensitive, they don’t have the same problem of switching off Fat Burning that someone with a larger body fat percentage and Insulin Resistance will have.
Matt: Interestingly, Insulin Resistance; man I was just talking about Insulin causing an exaggerated Insulin Spike that stops Fat Burning, but I did just say that Insulin is also Anabolic. So, not many people really understand that link there, also, with Insulin Resistance in regards to Protein Synthesis. Just as easily as you can become Insulin Resistant leading to obesity, you also can be Insulin Resistant for its Anabolic effects and Muscle. So, Insulin Resistance isn’t just Fat.
So, what I’m saying is, if you’ve got Insulin Resistance and you’ve got a certain amount of body fat this Insulin Resistance gets worse and worse. And, your Muscles are also Insulin Resistant, and Insulin doesn’t work like an Anabolic agent in fat people like it does in lean trained people. So, what that causes is the gap gets worse and worse and worse. So, with Insulin Resistance you’re preserving fat all the time because you’re blocking Fat Burning, but you’re also not getting that Muscle Building benefit in some cases, that’s when they get what they call Sarcopenic Obesity where you’ve got inadequate Muscle Mass, regardless whether you’ve got too much fat or not; you could have normal Fat Mass but not enough Muscle, you’re still obese.
Jeff: Tearing of the flesh, isn’t it?
Matt: Yeah, Sarcasm means to tear flesh, so it’s stripping off flesh, the Sarco-ness. So, basically, Insulin Resistance, in those sort of people—if you’re the sort of person that struggles to build Muscle and you’re constantly holding fat no matter how hard you train, consuming something that triggers an Insulin Release before training will not stimulate Muscle Growth like it will in a fit healthy person but will Preserve Fat.
But, someone that’s lean and shredded and fit and trained, and has consistently trained where they’ve actually had the Mitochondrial changes that come with fitness…
Jeff: That density, yeah.
Matt: Yeah, they don’t have these same results as someone with a slower Metabolism, a different body composition. That’s why there are a lot of trainers out there, or people out there, saying, “This is what works for me, you should do it, it will work for you too if you just have willpower,” but it’s not always the case.
Jeff: Right. I think there would be a lot of people happy to hear that. There are probably a lot of trainers that listen to this as well too that might be picking up some tips on how to modify for different people.
Matt: You’ve got to shake it up, it’s all about changing these things. So, what we said so far is, Fasted Cardio Burns more Fat because you’re in a Glycogen Depleted State, you’ve got less Insulin floating around switching off Fat Burning temporarily, which means during your Fasted Cardio you’re actually Burning a lot more Fat if you haven’t eaten before—well, otherwise it wouldn’t have been ‘Fasted Cardio’ would it?
Jeff: Yeah. And, we spoke a little bit about that in the Hepatothermic episode last week, as well, too.
Matt: Hey, I’ll tell you something else that’s interesting, before I forget.
Jeff: What’s that?
Matt: The research also shows that you don’t have to be fully Glycogen Depleted to Burn good amounts of Fat during Fasted Cardio because, basically, they’ve done studies that have showed full Glycogen Depletion, even up to fully Glycogen Loaded, and you get pretty similar amounts of Fatty Acid Oxidation during exercise as long as you haven’t eaten directly before that. So, you can eat at night.
Matt: That’s what I’m saying, you can replenish your Glycogen at night, have the Glycogen reserves in morning, and as long as you don’t have that Insulin Spike before training you’re still capable of Burning the same amount of Fat as if you were fully Glycogen Depleted.
Jeff: And, that comes back also to preferentially choosing Low GI Carbohydrates and trickling them in. Chris Thomas, I know, is a huge fan of actually having Carbohydrates later in the day than what he would earlier in the morning. I hope you don’t mind me saying that, Chris, he’s still got lots of little tips and tricks in terms of the ways that he will consume food.
Matt: Yeah. So, what we said so far is, you don’t necessarily even need Carbs immediately after that training for Protein Synthesis. So, imagine this, you’ve eaten your Carbohydrate at night, like a nice healthy dinner including Low GI Complex Carbs full of fibre that will get all the way down to the large intestine and fuel your good organisms and bacteria and stuff…
Jeff: Pearl Barley, loving that at the moment, that sort of stuff.
Matt: Yeah, I love it.
Jeff: Yeah, and Basmati Rice.
Matt: And then, basically, Fasted Cardio in the morning. Immediately after that you don’t even need to replenish those Carbs and replenish that Glycogen straight away to maintain or build Muscle, which is great news because that means you can stay Glycogen Depleted for a longer period of time which keeps you in a faster Metabolic Rate and improves Insulin Sensitivity.
Now, there are some cool tricks I’m going to show you to do before Fasted Cardio sooner or later.
Jeff: And, I’ve got two questions I have to ask you on that.
Matt: Yeah, hit it, go.
Jeff: A lot of the guys that are training are all Maximising Muscle and wanting to Burn Fat, so this is probably the higher end guys and girls that are potentially going on stage, who are just wanting to maximise their results, like in terms of really getting fit, really getting Muscles and lean. Post workout high GI Carbohydrates to Induce an Insulin Response, which as we say, is Anabolic. Because, the theory of thought is this; taking Carbohydrates, especially high GI Carbohydrates post weight training to Induce Insulin and to help protect the Protein from Gluconeogenesis. So, what I’m saying, Matt, is they will train with weights and they will deliberately use Dextrose or other high GI Carbohydrates to Induce Insulin and to replace Glycogen, and that way the Protein won’t be used for energy. Does that make sense?
Matt: Yeah, it does.
Jeff: And, we talk about Gluconeogenesis as well, too. So, what’s happening? Tell me.
Matt: Well, basically, what’s happening in that situation—we talk about the Glycogen window which is a period of time where your body is craving Carbohydrates to put in to replenish the Glycogen and they say it extends for about 20 minutes. It actually extends out until you’ve replenished the Glycogen. So, until you’ve replenished the Glycogen you remain Insulin Sensitive because your Muscles are craving it. So, you don’t really need to force it in within that 20 or 30 minutes.
Jeff: What about Catabolism though, surely there’s a point where the body goes, “You know what…
Matt: Oh yeah. So, basically, what you’re looking at is when you’re throwing in the Carbohydrates it’s going to go through and replenish the Glycogen. Okay? If you weren’t to put the Carbohydrates in, you were just to use Protein, when you find a combination—so, if you lose all the Essential Amino Acids with branch chains and that sort of stuff, you’ll find each Amino Acid has a different role; some go into Protein Synthesis, others go into Glycogen Replenishment. So, you don’t eat that Protein food and then all of it converts to sugar and then it goes through, each Amino Acid has a different role, like Lucienne will go straight in for Protein Synthesis and other Amino Acids will contribute to the conversion to sugars and then storage form of Glycogen. They all do help the delivery of Creatine and that sort of stuff in, so that’s a good strategy, and that’s the best way to supplement with Creatine is post exercise after you’ve Depleted your ATP.
But, this is what you’re actually doing, you’re actually reloading your Muscle cells with Glycogen and ATP.
Jeff: Right. Even if you’re just eating Protein?
Matt: No, what I’m saying is, when you’re having your Protein, Carbs, Creatine, what you’re actually doing is, you’re providing some Protein for Protein Synthesis, you’re providing the rest of the Carbohydrates and the Creatine to Replenish Glycogen and ATP.
Matt: All those things are water soluble inside the Muscles, they help to puff it up, they fill it up, it maintains that Muscle Mass by maintaining Muscle volume, maintain Muscle Hydration. And, again, like you’re saying, it stops Muscle Catabolism in the form of breakdown of Muscle Glycogen, so it stops you from having to breakdown as much Glycogen next time you train. Okay?
Matt: So, what you find in that sort of strategy that’s what you’re doing. That’s fine for Muscle Growth and probably a good strategy if your priority is to Grow.
Matt: But, if your priority is for Fat Burning, and you want to maintain a fast Metabolic Rate for the 24 hours after that training, then you can do the same thing without the Carbohydrate and you’re going to get equal amounts of Protein Synthesis. Creatine will be absorbed effectively into Muscles without Carbohydrate if you use it post workout because it’s craving it. See, you’ve got to understand that Creatine is just making ATP, so the Depletion of the Creatine Phosphate Reserves that they use to re-Synthesise ATP when that’s low, the Creatine is going to be sucked in.
The bigger problem is loading. A lot of that stuff comes from the Loading of Creatine. You know, when people say, “We load up on these big doses of Creatine for a period of time”?
Jeff: Yeah, yeah.
Matt: Well, it’s got to go somewhere. The best way to absorb Creatine is to Deplete your Creatine stores and then it’s craving it and it sucks it straight through. So, just while we’re talking about Creatine and Glycogen and that sort of stuff, when we’re doing our exercise what we want this ATP and Glycogen and everything for is—well, what we want Creatine for is for the ATP generation. That’s our first 10 seconds of exercise. So, when we do our initial launch or initial burst of energy that you find with high intensity cardio and all that sort of stuff, so our first 10 seconds is when we’re basically using ATP. And, then what is happening is the Creatine Phosphate in reserve is used to re-Synthesise that ATP when we slow down the intensity or when we have a break between bouts. You know, when you’re walking back you’re regenerating that ATP and then when you sprint you go again, that’s how it’s working. As soon as you go past those 10 seconds and that that’s when you’re going into your Aerobic Metabolism, when you’re starting to Burn stored Glycogen and then going into Fatty Acid Burning and that sort of stuff as well.
So, the whole concept is that Creatine ATP stuff it’s only for the explosive thing, but with the basic Aerobic Metabolism—we want to spend as much time as possible in the Aerobic Metabolism because that’s Oxidation. So, Aerobic involves Oxygen, and that Fatty Acid Oxidation is what we’re talking about with Fat Burning; you can’t Burn anything without Oxygen. So, that’s the point that we want, so that’s…
Jeff: That’s where we’ve got to get. And again, this comes down to Steady State Cardio versus High Intensity. So, a lot of people—and if you look at a sprinter’s physique, for example, they don’t do a heck of a lot of Steady State Cardio, they’re built for power, they are built for performance, high intensity, short duration. They might do 20 100metre sprints, I don’t know, 10 200metre sprints, sorry if you’re a sprinter, I don’t know how you train, but I can’t see a sprinter going out and running a half marathon, that’s going to counterintuitive to what they’re trying to achieve, but yet they’re lean and ripped.
Jeff: You look at a long distance runner and they’re not as ripped, and they’ve got a hell of a lot less Muscle Mass, as well too. So, there is, obviously, a point where you break into Catabolism.
Matt: Absolutely. Well, let’s talk about how to Burn Fat during exercise then, and this will link in with this.
Matt: Because, once you get those first 10 seconds and that sort of stuff out of the way we’re starting to go into Aerobic Metabolism.
Matt: So, you know when we’re just sitting around doing nothing, our body is constantly releasing Fat into our bloodstream. We’ve got enough Fat liberated into our bloodstream to fuel our Resting Metabolic Rate. When we start exercising we start Burning some of that Fat and we start dragging some of that stuff in to compensate for our increased energy requirements.
What happens is, when we get to about half exertion, when we’re about 50%, up to 65% of our exertion, we’ve actually got to the point where we’ve actually taken all of the Free Fatty Acids out of our bloodstream in to Burn for fuel. If we go beyond that we’re not Burning any more Fat.
Jeff: Right. We get that 65% heartrate, train at that for 40 minutes, an hour.
Matt: Yeah, they talk about heartrates, exertion, all that, yeah.
Matt: So, that’s what they’re saying, if you can get to that point of exertion and you maintain that for as long as possible you’re going to be Burning Fat through that time period, because there is only so much Fat that’s available in your bloodstream that it’s capable of sucking in at any one time. Okay?
High Intensity Cardio, which goes up to that 85% exertion and short little sprinting things doesn’t Burn as much Fat during the exercise, but what it does is it causes massive Depletions of the Glycogen, it causes a lot of Adaptation changes in our Mitochondria where they actually improve their ability to suck Fat through for fuel and that sort of stuff.
Matt: And it also improves the ability for the After Burn. So, you actually deplete everything so much you trigger all these changes within the Mitochondria to spend the rest of the day sucking Fat through to replenish everything that you’ve exhausted during your High Intensity, so they both work.
Matt: What’s interesting though, there are ways—and, this is what I’m really excited about, because what I’ve been trying to work on. There are ways of increasing our Fatty Acid Oxidation right up to about 85% exertion by actually increasing the ability for the body to liberate more Free Fatty Acids. So, like I was saying, we hit a wall with Fat Burning because we run out of available fat in the bloodstream, we run out of available Oxygen in the bloodstream, that’s when they talk about VO2Max and Lactic Thresholds and all that sort of stuff. So, we get to a point where we’ve depleted the fat out of our bloodstream, we can’t get any more Oxygen in so therefore we can’t Oxidise that fat to make Energy. If we overcome those hurdles, so if we use Lipolytic Agents before and during exercise to increase the amount of Lipolysis, which is the liberation of Stored Fat into Free Fatty Acids into the bloodstream. You know how they talk about Lipolysis…
Jeff: I’ve heard of Lipolysis, yeah which is the release of Fats from Stored.
Matt: Yeah, and that’s how your Fat Burning Stimulants and that sort of stuff work, you know, they always talk about Increased Free Fatty Acid release and Mobilised Stored Fat, that’s how things like SUBCUT and that work. SUBCUT will actually just mobilise Stored Fat out of storage sites into the bloodstream so you’re capable of burning it.
Jeff: Doesn’t mean that you will, though, does it?
Matt: No, unless you do it this way. You’ve got to do it as part of diet and exercise.
Jeff: That’s right.
Matt: So, basically, if we increase the amount of Fatty Acids that are available, and if we hit a switch that increases the amount of Oxygen that’s delivered into the Mitochondria at the same time then your Fatty Acid Oxidation can move from half and two thirds exertion all the way up to three quarters or up to 85% exertion, which means, during High Intensity Cardio in a Fasted State you can Burn a hell of a lot more Fat.
Jeff: Because, the body is pulling for more Fat from reserves more quickly?
Jeff: And, then the body can then go, “Great, there’s heaps of Fat here, so we can tap into that.” So, theoretically then, it should cause less Glycogen Depletion, and also less Catabolic activity for Muscle Tissue as well. Is that correct or not?
Matt: No, the opposite. No, we’re Burning, we Burn everything.
Matt: See, this is the point, man. Your Muscles are constantly either using ATP or creating ATP.
Matt: So, basically, what happens is when you switch over to Aerobic Metabolism what we’re trying to do is—for example, if you look at AMP-K, AMP-K activation, when you activate this particular messenger what happens is, a cascade of events that says to the body, “Whatever fuel is available get it and Burn it, to make ATP,” so it will Burn Muscle Glycogen, and it will Burn Fatty Acids at the same rate.
Jeff: Will it Burn Muscle Tissue, like Muscles?
Matt: No, no. No, we’re not going to liberate Protein out of Muscles.
Jeff: That’s what I meant.
Matt: No, sorry. No, we Deplete the Glycogen. No, that’s all Catabolism, Fatty Acid Oxidation is Catabolism, Glycogen Depletion is Catabolism, but no we shouldn’t go into that stage, we’ve got to maintain—and, the way to compensate for that is maintaining a good Amino Acid pool through your post workout supplementation.
Jeff: And, again Matt, I know that you’re on a track here, but this is where a lot of people go, “Well, I know, I’ll make sure I’m not going to lose Muscle Tissue so I’m going to throw in Amino Acids while I’m training.”
Matt: Yeah. The problem is, they can compete with the Fat in your body that we’re trying to Burn.
Jeff: Yeah. So, the body…
Matt: We want the Glycogen to be Depleted because we want to force the body to have to Burn Fat, and we want to then tell the body to liberate as much Fat as possible. So, if you look at that AMP-K, you look at that one switch, that’s the master switch that at that point where your ATP is Depleted to a state, it’s AMP-K Activation that tells your body, “You have to switch over to Aerobic Metabolism, you have to start shuttling all this Oxygen through, you have to start sucking all this Fat through because there’s nothing else available.” AMP-K Activation then even sends a message to the Fat cells, “Liberate as much Fat as you can,” it sends messages through to the Respiratory Tract and Heart and makes sure there’s adequate Oxygen.
So, basically, all these things happen at once with an AMP-K Activation. So, what happens, you do your 10 seconds of your Creatine and ATP, the rest of it we’re forcing the body to Burn Fat through AMP-K Activation. And, what it does, it’s like the ignition switch, it makes sure we’ve got the flame and the tinder, you know what I mean.
Jeff: So, it’s like the primer, isn’t it?
Matt: Yeah. It makes sure it blasts that Oxygen in at the same time as it blasts the Fat in. So, it’s just blasting fuel into the Mitochondria for the purpose of generating ATP to fuel that exercise. Anything that involves the utilisation of ATP, such as building Fat cells, or eating, all that sort of stuff, is all switched off and basically says, “Anything that’s going to waste this ATP don’t do it. We’re not going to do anything now but Burn, Burn, Burn.” And, the cool thing is, that Depletes all of the Glycogen, it strips all that Fat out, you Burn everything, and then it maintains a very fast Metabolic Rate for the rest of the 24-hour period. That’s why the Glycogen Depletion, the Low Insulin, the Fasted State, combined with the AMP-K Activation just creates an environment within your Muscle cells for the rest of the day that you’re going to be continually trying to suck Fat through and Burn through and keep that Metabolic Rate cranking.
Jeff: And Matt, we’ve got the Oxygen and O2, and Fat Burning, and last week we did the Hepatothermic Fat Burning. This is kind of a combination of all these things. We’ve spoken about Insulin and Glucogen and all these sorts of things.
Jeff: So again, in summary, can you also describe when we should, potentially, look at Steady State Cardio versus High Intensity. And, again…
Matt: Mix them up, that’s the thing, it’s variety. They’re both right.
Jeff: That’s right, and it also comes down to you as an individual, and I know we’ve mentioned this before, Ann Marie does not like High Intensity because it makes her Muscles stringy. She’s got a particular look, and she knows her body so well. So, High Intensity Cardio is not going to be high on her list, but for nine out of 10 people, for 99 out of 100 people, their interested in Burning Fat, which most people are, mixing up. High Intensity is definitely a tool to use.
Jeff: So Matt, a 24-hour period. Someone, the average person, maybe not at the higher end like some of these finely tuned athletes that jump on stage, but they want to maximise Fat Burning and minimise Muscle Tissue loss. Give me a run down. How would you approach it?
Matt: I’d do Faster Cardio, so I’d get up in the morning, you can butter up with the SUBCUT or something to liberate those Fatty Acids, it’s going to take a good 20 odd minutes to liberate the Subcutaneous Fat into the bloodstream, so you can do that before you go.
There are a couple of other supplements that I might tell you about in future episode, once I’m allowed to, that we’re releasing, that you might want to do prior to exercise. I’m going to do a podcast on just how that works and you’re going to freak out because I am still freaking out..
Jeff: This is product that we’ve just received the patent on, correct?
Matt: Yeah. We’ll be allowed to talk about it soon. So, you want to exercise in a Glycogen Depleted State first thing in the morning, which basically means, Fasted Cardio, and you want to mix it up between the High Intensity and then the slow and steady, so chop and change. And, you can even do what I do, you predominantly do slow and steady except for that one dog that comes out and I do a quick little bit of High Intensity just to get down the road a bit, and then back to the steady. So, that’s what you want to do, exercise first thing in the morning. Immediately after that you can consume some protein. Okay? Now, make sure the Protein contains all the Essential Amino Acids and a measureable dose of Branch Chain Amino Acids, in particular good doses of Lucienne. And, you only really need—what is it for a 40 kilo body weight? I don’t have many 40 kilos, but that works out to be about 10 grams, so you only really need about 20 grams of Essential Amino Acids and Branch Chain combinations in a Hydrolysed Whey base or something like that, a Hydrolysed Protein base, you only need about 20 grams of that if you’re 80 kilos, and that contributes to Protein Synthesis.
Matt: The rest then can contribute through to conversion Sugars and Replenishing Glycogen.
Jeff: Man, that is going to be really hard, especially for the guys and girls who have a little bit of physique because they’re always told, “Two grams of Protein per kilo of body weight,” and most now consider that not enough and they’ll go to three grams of Protein.
Matt: That’s fine. If you have too much then what happens is, a certain amount of it will contribute to Glycogen Replenishment, the rest of it will contribute to the Amino Acid pools that you use for Liver Detoxification, Brain. It’s not that big of a deal, man, I’m just telling you when they did the studies post-training this is how much of those Amino Acids actually get incorporated into Muscle Tissue for the purpose of Protein Synthesis, the others go other places and do other jobs, so it’s not that bad.
Jeff: Yeah. And, we know, obviously, Lipotropic Amino Acids to help with the Liver as well too, Hepatothermic, and we’re also making sure—Oxygen, Matt. I mean CoEnzyme Q10, we spoke about that, we’ve spoken about the Shilajit.
Matt: Well, they’re all things you can load up on.
Jeff: Yeah. And, what about timing of Nutrients though?
Matt: Hang on, let me finish this first question you just asked me.
Jeff: I get excited.
Matt: Yeah, so Fasted Cardio, deplete that Glycogen, load up on some Amino Acids to support Protein Synthesis, and then you don’t have to rush in and have that next meal, so you can then…
Jeff: That’s post-training, right?
Matt: Yeah, yeah, post-training. So then, basically, have your post-training meal, give it half an hour or so for those Amino Acids to go in and work and be absorbed. Maybe have your post-training meal an hour later, but what you want that post-training meal to be is Low GI. So, whatever Carbohydrates you put in you want high fibre, you want a high Protein meal, you want good fats, and you want your Carbohydrates in there to be Low GI. Because, we don’t really want to rush that Glycogen Replenishment back in, we want to trickle the Carbohydrates in throughout the day, and not necessarily go through…
Jeff: Not block off the fat burning.
Matt: Yeah, we don’t want to switch off the Fat Burning, we want to kind of stay Glycogen Depleted as much as possible throughout the day, so you want to keep those Carbs low and slow all day, and then make sure you can actually replenish those Carbs at night to actually rebuild that Glycogen level so they’re available for the next morning’s training.
Jeff: Yeah, perfect.
Matt: You can still do Resistance exercise, as well, by the way. So, you can choose to do that immediately after your Fasted Cardio, or you could do that at another time of the day.
Jeff: What about doing weights first when you’re up and you’re fresh? Which, is obviously Depleting…
Matt: Yeah, that’s fine, you’re just Depleting Glycogen.
Jeff: Yeah, and then maybe throw in a bit of…
Matt: High Intensity.
Jeff: High Intensity either directly after your weight training or between sets.
Matt: Yeah, so it doesn’t really matter too much. And, that’s why I love people working with coaches because that’s the stuff people chop and change. Sam Heron said to me one day, too, and I said, “Which do you reckon is better?”
Jeff: Steady State compared to High Intensity?
Matt: Yeah, and she said the one that you do.
Jeff: Yeah, great answer.
Matt: And, I even asked the same question and I said, “Morning or afternoon?” and she said, “The one that you do.” Because, the stuff that you do, typically, works better than the stuff that you don’t.
Jeff: Well, we’re really talking about finding those little tips and tricks that can add up to 10% here, 5% here, 15% there, and all of a sudden you’re Burning twice as much Fat by making some changes to the way you work out and the way that you eat.
Matt: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to say, after we’ve done that Glycogen Depletion through that Fasted Cardio, we’ve Activated that AMP-K that stimulated our Metabolic Rate and everything, we want to keep stoking that Metabolic Fire. And, that’s where we use things like the T432 PLUS, which is just a product that works via the Basal Metabolic Rate, you know, via the Thyroid and Insulins and Estrogens and everything to keep a fast Metabolic Rate going.
That’s the sort of thing you want to be doing for the other 23 hours of the day that you’re not exercising, because like I said, previously, typically we have enough Free Fatty Acids liberated into our bloodstream throughout the day to actually supply our resting Metabolic Rate. So, if we have a faster Metabolic Rate we’re going to be Burning through more of those Fatty Acids throughout the day, and then in a Glycogen Depleted state you’re going to be doing that.
Jeff: Now, we’ve spoken before, Matt, about supplement timing. Now, I know a lot of people now with the pre-workout becoming extremely popular, there’s pre-workout Fat Burners out there as well, too. Let’s not talk about artificial sweeteners and potential Insulin releases from those products, but let’s look at Free Form Amino Acids to help with liberating Fat, things like Inositol Choline. We touched on that with Hepatothermic last time, and we also talked about L-Carnitine too, and we’ve spoken about that before. It does not matter when you take L-Carnitine so long as it’s present and you’ve got reserves of that. What about utilising things like Inositol and Choline before training, or it doesn’t matter? That’s the same as the L-Carnitine? So, long as you have it, it works?
Matt: Yes, and no. I mean there are some other little trickly things. There is some supplementation stuff like Biotin, high doses of Biotin and that, that will block the ability of the Liver to pump sugar out. That will force the body to go into Fat to a certain degree. You’re Inositol and Choline is more for making sure you’re not deficient in it so they’re capable of working as a Hepatothermic when they need to.
Jeff: But, if you took that could that blunt Fat Burning? I mean would the body Oxidise it?
Matt: If you take those things pre-workout it’s more to do with the base that you take them with. Like if you were to take those particular Vitamins and Amino Acids in a capsulated form without any sweeteners or other fillers and things like that, because it’s also a lot of the other fillers, this other little stuff they put in the powders to actually change mouth feel and all that, that actually screw with our Metabolic Rate by changing Hormonal Secretions and that sort of stuff.
A lot of the problem with those sorts of supplements is just getting them into the spot without creating other effects along the way. But yeah, absolutely, Inositol Choline, and even like Acetyl Carnitine without the sweeteners that stuff is effective to actually load up on that extra Carnitine, because supplementing with extra Carnitine, even pre-workout, will up-regulate Carnitine Palmitoyltransferase which is the Fat Burner to a certain degree as long as we don’t have the Insulin blunting it.
Jeff: Yes. So, no sweet—if you’re going to do that Free Form Amino Acid make sure there’s not something hidden in the base, and Inositol Choline, Acetyl L-Carnitine.
Matt: Just take them pure, which is hard—it’s not only hard to find it’s hard to measure. They often have these things, for example, like…
Matt: …one fifth of a teaspoon or something stupid. So, they thin it out with something so you can actually measure it in teaspoon sizes so you’re not killing yourself.
Jeff: Yeah, and they don’t always have that on the label, either, and these are the things that we’re finding out, obviously, [0:42:36] a lot of Amino Acids, it says 100% pure but it’s actually not.
Matt: Well there is a percentage of it that is 100% pure. For 80% of the time I’m right every time, you know, it’s like that. They’ll say it’s 100% pure but it’s only 80% of the blend, and the rest of it is a drying agent like a sugar or a Maltodextrin or a starch. So, all those sort of things have to be taken into consideration. A lot of the other things that we see in pre-workout Nutrition are better post-workout anyway, it’s just that marketing wise there was no target demographic for post-workout, for a period time everyone wanted pre-workout. So, all the companies that were trying to make post-workouts just put them in pre-workout formula so people would buy them.
But, all the research for Creatine, Glutamine, and all that sort of stuff, should be post-workout. You’re better off replenishing what’s depleted than trying to load up something that’s full. So, that’s the main thing there with that supplementation. The weird one is the pre-workout stuff. It takes a real strategy to get a proper pre-workout Fat Burner, that’s why we’ve been working on this for so long, because it’s not just looking at the pharmacology and that sort of stuff, it’s actually looking at the mouth feel, the brain.
So, much of all this stuff our brain is just so smart, we’ve got these systems in our body that work instantly.
Matt: You know when we talked about Ken Ware the other week, with that Neurophysics stuff, and one of the things that he mentioned that sticks out, that the brain has reflexes of .6 of a second where our body has a .1 second reflex. So, basically what happens is, we do all this thinking in our brain but our body’s already made the changes, so when you put something into your mouth that the body assumes is going to be providing Carbohydrates and that sort of stuff, changes within our body have occurred instantly. They can easily be turned back, but there’s a handbrake that’s been pulled on just before you start.
Jeff: And, this is where, Matt, we can use that to our advantage. I know we’ve spoken about before, when you wake up or after a period of Fasting the first thing that you put into your mouth can also enhance or put a handbrake eon how you’re going to Burn Fat.
Matt: Yeah, exactly.
Jeff: So, put foods in that are going to help to enhance Fat Burning, like good fats and Essential Oils and things like that are going to be more beneficial. I know a lot of people use MCT when they get up just to prime the pump, which is not a bad idea.
Matt: Yeah, MCT is a beautiful fuel to go straight in for Ketogenic stuff.
Jeff: Cracker. Matt, anything else you want to say on that? Have we covered enough?
Matt: No, I’m bored with that. What we’ll do is we’ll do another really cool one when I’m allowed to talk about the really cool stuff, too, if that makes sense.
Jeff: Okay. Yeah, absolutely it does. Alright. So, what we’re going to talk about is FAQs.
Matt: Oh, that’s cool.
Jeff: Let’s get into it. Okay.
Mattie, Anonymous is back. “Hi ATP, a completely random question, and sorry if it’s yuk.” Well, Matt’s a Naturopath, so seriously all you did was you were up to your elbows in poop, and period for two decades.
Matt: And, spent half the time dry reaching at skin conditions. People come in, “I’ve got this,” and I’m like, “Ugh, ugh.”
Jeff: They’ve got this weird fungus. At the Christmas Party, Matt, “What’s this?”
Matt: Oh mate, at parties I’m a carpenter, so if anyone meets me at a party, “Yeah, I’m a chippy.”
Jeff: “Hi, a completely random question, sorry if it’s yuk. I’ve been using T432 and ALPHA VENUS for a little while, I’ve just added CORT RX to the mix. And, about a week ago, since starting it, my pee stinks. Diet has not changed and I drink about three to five litres of water a day. Is this a normal thing to happen? As it began to happen a day or two after starting the CORT RX I’m just curious. Thanks.”
That’s an unusual one, Matt.
Matt: If you were in my clinic I would have to smell it and find out which chemical it was. I probably wouldn’t do that anyway; I’d probably ask a series of questions to try to work out which chemical was causing the problem. But, basically, the sort of things that are common to make your Urine stink are Ammonia Toxicity—but, none of these really link directly in with CORT RX and that sort of stuff, except for the fact that one thing these NRF2 Activators do, is they increase Detoxification, increase things like Sulphation, and you can actually get a sulphurous odour as you’re eliminating a lot of the Sulphated Toxins through Urine and that. So, if it’s a Sulphurous smell it could be that. Ammonia is that more of a bleachy weird sort of smell. If it smells bizarre and that, a common thing is actually E.coli can sneak across and actually cause the Urine to smell, and it’s a very strong smell too. Also, if the body is becoming Acidic from other training and that sort of stuff, it can favour the growth of organisms and that sort of stuff. So, hopefully you can work out from there, and also just look for things like Asparagus in your diet that you might have started around the same time. Make sure there’s nothing like that that’s going straight through with an odour.
Jeff: Any advice, Matt? Go off for a period of time, knock it back a little bit, just see what happens?
Matt: Do a sample, send it to Jeff. Jeff has got the best nose, he can smell anything and tell you whether it’s Ammonia, Sulphur, Acid, E. coli.
Matt: I’ll give you a test sample for reference for E. coli.
Jeff: I can smell off milk, that’s what I’m good at. And, Toni’s about to drink the stuff, and seriously I’m like, “Stop.”
Matt: What? What’s she drinking?
Jeff: Well she cannot smell whether milk is off or not.
Matt: Oh sorry, I was still thinking about old Anonymous.
Jeff: Anyway, so give that a try and let us know. Maybe take a period of time off and then go back on it, Matt?
Matt: Yeah, have a crack and see if it’s linked in with the product. That’s the only way to know if it’s associated with the product. If the stink goes off and then goes back on.
Jeff: And, if it is the Detoxification, Matt, it should slowly get better over time, shouldn’t it, as the body gets rid of it?
Matt: Yeah. Or, sometimes you might need cofactors. Like, for example, if the Detoxification is not a complete reaction you can use some of the cofactors which are typically B Vitamins and that sort of stuff, that work like the B6s and are highly important for the Sulphation process.
Jeff: Okay. So, maybe go off it for a period, try it back on, and see if it smells.
Matt: In saying that, if you have a heap of B Vitamins your pee can stink too.
Jeff: Is that right?
Matt: Yeah, it goes colourful too.
Jeff: Well, you’re not much help at all.
Matt: No, I’d need to sniff it but I don’t have a really good nose, so send it, Jeff will sniff it.
Matt: Taste it, whatever has to happen.
Jeff: No, he’s joking.
Okay, this one is from Amanda: “Hi guys. Very cliché I know, but I love listening to you both, you are by far my favourite podcast.” That’s not cliché at all, Matt. Hazar……we’ve got a little thing going—thanks for leaving me hanging. I say clichés more than anybody else and I love them.
Matt: He does. And, when we were in Vegas if he does a cliché we all go, “Hazar,” and he has to buy us all a drink.
Jeff: Now for the question: “I’m a 34 year old woman who has been on birth control for a total of around 15 years. I would dearly love to get off it, I have tried multiple times but break out in terrible acne every time. I did suffer from acne when I was a teenage and like many women went on to the BCP to help with that problem, and it did work wonders. I’ve recently had Abnormal Pap Smears showing Low Grade Squamous Cells.” I don’t know if I said that correctly. “Tested positive for HPV. I have been working out now for a number of years and struggle to lose weight. I am roughly 8 kilos over weight from what I think is ideal. I have also taken ALPHA VENUS, T432 on and off for a few times but was unsure whether they would do anything while being on BCP.” Birth Control Pill.
“Do you think some of your products could help my situation? I am also now more worried about taking things that may progress the Low Grade Cervical Cells into High Grade and eventually into Cancer. I eat a healthy diet but I am aware this could also improve. I am open to anything that could help but really appreciate it because I feel like I’m losing the battle here. Thanks heaps.”
Matt: Cool. Often what happens is, with Hormonal Dysfunction and Dysregulation and that sort of stuff, people can often use Contraceptive Pills to mask those symptoms without actually fixing the Insulin Resistance and the Ovulation issues. Interestingly, one of the side effects of Contraceptive Pills and that, is that it increases the production of a particular Estrogen Metabolite, which is 16Alphahydroxyestrone, that stuff contributes to Abnormal Cells, and if you get the HPV virus in your system that can start a bit of an event and the 16Alphahydroxyestrone fuels the growth of those Abnormal Cells. While you’re on the Oral Contraceptive Pill you make more of this stuff, it up-regulates that pathway to make more of this very strong and active Estrogen. But, because it does put in a certain amount of Hormone through negative feedback you don’t make too much. Then, when you come off the pill you still make that really bad Hormone but there’s nothing stopping you putting a cap on it, so your body makes heaps and heaps and heaps of it, and then these cells go weird, these cells thrive and hyper proliferate, which is what happens when we look at these cancer type cells.
So, basically, what you need to do is, we need to go back and find the cause of the skin problems and the Hormonal problems, to start with, which is typically associated with Insulin issues and Ovulation issues. So, the new ALPHA VENUS with the Vitex and that sort of stuff really does help with that, and the same with the T432 PLUS with the Zinc and everything.
But, the most important thing, though, is that you get this 16Alphahydroxyestrone out of your system and converted to 2Alphahydroxyestrone and then down to 2Methoxyestrone, and I’m mentioning those words because they can be measured. You can do Urine testing to see and that sort of stuff, and take some other markers rather than just doing Pap Smears for cancerous cells, you can see when we’re heading onto the right track.
So, what you do is, you use the Broccoli Sprouts and the Rosemary and that sort of stuff, the NRF2 Activators that’s in our products to swing it to one pathway, and that makes 2Alphahydroxyestrone. To make 2Methoxyestrone, which actually reverses those dodgy cells and blocks the effects of the 16Alphahydroxyestrone from the pill, you need B6, B12, Folate, high doses of those sorts of things, and that will actually encourage your conversion.
So, basically, what you need to do to prevent these cells and the side effects, is start moving that 16Alphahydroxyestrone away and increasing your amount of 2Methoxyestrone that you’re making.
Jeff: So, B Vitamins with Folate, and ALPHA VENUS and T432?
Jeff: Good way to go. Alright, great.
Matt, this one is from Kimberly: “Hey, I have SIBO, Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth.
Jeff: What products do you suggest for this? That’s a nice quick question.
Matt: Yeah, that was cool, man. Basically, you need to do two things, you need to starve them and poison them to take a chunk off the load. You’re never going to fully get rid of them and you don’t want to. There’s actually a lot more of them than us. We just want to be able to take a chunk off them and replenish them with good friendly bacteria. Predominantly they feed on sugars, and the sugars have to get into that part of the Digestive Tract. So, for a short period of time you go onto very simple sugars only, sugars that get absorbed quickly out of the stomach and very few of them make it to the lower part of the intestine. At the same time, you put in some poisons that kill these things off.
The sort of poisons that kill them off is, Coconut, and there is a whole heap of foods, Dorrigo Pepper, Vietnamese Mint, Radishes, Raspberries, there’s whole heap of weird combinations of foods that do that. We made a list recently, didn’t we?
Jeff: We did.
Matt: So, our Anti Candida—we made a Candida protocol, it’s the same sort of thing, they all feed on the same stuff. So, an Anti-Candida protocol that we made available, I think, is what you basically do, which is starve them, poison them, and you only do that for a period of time, like typically 10 days to three weeks. You only need to do it for a short period of time. You can make significant changes by starving them for about 10 days, and then basically the point is, you’ve got to reload with good friendly bugs to make sure they don’t come back.
Jeff: Yeah. That’s the cool thing. Matt, this is what we’re calling a Toni Podcast, which is short, sweet and to the point. So, that’s where we’re going to leave it today.
Matt: Cool. Nice one.
Jeff: Last word?
Matt: Uhm. Toni’s not sweet.
Jeff: Oh. That’s more than one word.
Matt: She’s short and pointy.
Jeff: Oh. That will definitely be cut. Bullshit.
Matt: Okay, leave it in, she won’t get to the end.
Thanks everyone for listening and we’ll be back next week.
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