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Episode 42 – Chaos Theory Interview with Ken Ware


Welcome to the ATP Project, Episode 42 – Chaos Theory.

In today’s podcast Matt and I interview Ken Ware, the founder of the Neurophysics Functional Movement Centre, NFMC.

• Ken was recently featured on the television program 60 Minutes when he confounded the medical establishment by treating paraplegic John McClean, and not only helped him to walk again after 25 years in a wheelchair but enabled John to compete in an able bodied triathlon.

Ken’s fascinating story, doing what many call impossible, started with his journey into body building when he began training to become Mr Queensland and ultimately Mr Universe.

One day, quite by accident, when training on his own Ken discovered what he now calls the Ware K Tremor, which Ken says, is based upon the science of Chaos Theory and makes what many call impossible a reality.

When Matt and I visited his clinics waiting on Ken for the interview we met a mother of a former Multiple Sclerosis sufferer whose severe Scoliosis was cured in just four days, she claims, thanks to working with NFMC and NFK and their educational Protocols.

To say this is a fascinating subject and a remarkable man is an understatement, and I appreciate many people will consider the information in this podcast too hard to accept. However, I hope you can listen with an open mind and that it reinforces that anything is possible and that you have the right to take control of your own health, wellness and happiness.

Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start.

Welcome to the ATP Project, you’re with your hosts Matt and Jeff.

Jeff: Matt, today we have a very special guest star Ken Ware.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Matt, you’ve been rabbiting on about Ken for quite some time.

Matt: I have, actually.

Jeff: Unusual, crazy, unbelievable things that he’s actually helping people to do. Do you want to introduce Ken?

Matt: Yeah. Well, Jeff you’ve only known me for a few years but in that time I’ve probably been filling you
in on a lot of the miracles that Ken’s performing on a daily basis. We get a lot of Goosebumps in our office every day when we have these things, but I can imagine Ken would just walk around bumpy all day.
I first met Ken when I think I was only 12, so I was 12, a chubby kid and I wanted to go to the gym because I wanted to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger and my family didn’t want me to, but I went in anyway. Ken used to be on this glass and aluminium Ad on TV with his bicep on TV and I thought, “That’s the one I want.” So, eventually I went in and Ken showed me how to do the basics and got me excited about everything with the gym, and that’s probably led to where ATP is today. Ken has been helping a lot of people, but through his inspiration and that sort of stuff ATP’s come about as well and we’re also helping a lot of people on a different level.
So, I’m 40 now, and something has happened between when I was 12 and when I’m 40, and now you’re not working in a gym next to an indoor cricket place, but instead you’re actually taking people out of wheelchairs and I’m seeing you on 60 Minutes and all that sort of stuff. So, what the hell are you doing different?

Jeff: Well, with that I better introduce Ken. So, Ken, nice to have you with us today.

Ken: Thank you Jeff.

Jeff: I really appreciate you spending some time with us. I know that a lot of our listeners are going to get a lot out of this. Ken, how did it all start for you? And, maybe we could start with a little bit about your background. I know Matt shared that he met you through the gym and I know that you were a champion body builder.

Ken: Yes, Jeff and thanks for that Matt. Well, it does go right back to when I was young, post boarding school—I went to boarding school as a bit of a nerd and got the crap belted out of me being a nerd. So, from there I decided I was going to start training with weights to build myself up, more or less to protect myself from other males, but the attitude that I had about it was always coming from a position of anger and aggression and the likes, and trying to become Mr Universe overnight. And, even though that wasn’t the plan, I was just planning on maybe entering into a body building competition somewhere along the line and doing that sort of training. I was playing Rugby League at the same time and it got to that point where you can’t just tackle somebody you’re got to try to seriously hurt them, that’s where I was coming from that space.
Anyway, I found myself over in Perth in 1982 for some various reasons, and I was doing all these things in the gym and really busting my butt trying to do what I set out to accomplish. But, I was already injured, I had knees and back and goodness knows what that were going wrong, and just some old guys who I went up to approach one day, because I couldn’t believe how they were lifting these heavy weights and they seemed to be so composed and relaxed yet in the other room were all these world champion power lifters were training and they were yelling and screaming and slapping each other in the face, and that was more what I thought I had to do.

Jeff: Right.

Ken: And, they just patted me on the back, and simply said, “Ken, why don’t you just slow things down and just get your technique sorted out? You’re training hard enough, but you’re going to kill yourself the way you’re going. Stop being so angry, just relax.”
Anyway, I thought, “Well, I’ll take this advice,” and when I did do that and I dropped some weight off the squat bar that I had at the time and lowered, what I believed, was lowering the weight right down. Then I decided to go slowly, and I saw this quite violent Tremor emerge in my system and I thought, “That’s strange,” I’ll take some weight off and it will probably get better.” So, I took more weight off and it got worse, so it seemed the lighter I went the more violent this Tremor became, and I could stop it, I could tense up and stop it, just how I would be lifting a normal weight by tensing up and just trying to drive though. But, in this relaxed state I could see there was quite a lot of violence there, and when I went to go down slowly and come back up it was so violent that I thought I was going to vomit. Now, I could have easily have tripled that weight on there and punched that up for Reps, but under those Micro conditions it was quite another other story.
Now, at that point in time, I just intuitively, and correctly, thought, I’ve just totally thrashed my Nervous System, and if this is the end result of everything I’ve been trying to accomplish then I’m a loser, I might as well just chuck it all in now, because this is it. I’ll just go back to sprinting and playing a bit of footy or whatever. So, I left quite miserable.
As I was walking down the stairs and my legs were still shaking, I was trying to put my foot on the clutch to calm but everything were still shaking. I went home and my wife, at the time, said, “What the hell has happened to you?” and I didn’t want to talk about it, I was pretty demoralised. But, over the next couple of days I was like, “I’m not going to let this beat me,” and as strange as it may sound, my next thought was to just go back, by myself, free squatting at home, doing some push ups off the bench, and once again, I was very strong with the bench press but all of a sudden I was doing some push ups off the bench and shaking like crazy, and all this frustration and anger were coming out of me at the same time, and it was totally bizarre. But, I just had this understanding, intuition, that if I just let that go that it would somehow sort itself out.
Now, as bizarre as it sounds, I, at that point in time became the first human being in the history of the human race to tap onto the fact that the Human Nervous System can self-organise, get rid of this noise and return itself, stable itself back into some healthy state again. So, that had never been done. People had seen Tremor before but they’d always seen it as something that was pathological and nobody had ever thought, “I wonder what would happen if I just let this go and just let it keep it evolve?” and it did, it just went really Chaotic.

Jeff: So, this is the process with your training with the Nervous System Tremoring your Muscles, your body?

Ken: It’s a Tremor, we call it a Tremor because it’s easy to understand and most people will identify with that, but it’s the underlying states of the proper Nervous System, the underlying states of our Nervous System are Chaotic. We perceive it as stable so I can pick up my glass of water and drink it, but if you see the resting state of the Brain its Chaotic, and in fact, when it becomes orderly and synchronised that when people have Seizures, so it’s the dead opposite of what people think.

Jeff: Right.

Ken: There’s just too much water in the system. So, we understand Seizures on that basis, so we know how to help people to escape those states, but there are all these other systems that we have in place that stabilise us beneath the Neck and all our Motor Responses to the environment become stabilised through the Cerebellum, Basal Ganglia and Indirect Cortical Spinal Pathways and the likes, so they have those skills at being able to do that. But, if a person just relaxes and allows their system to open up you’ll start to see these Chaotic Rhythms appear.
Now, let’s just look at a case like Parkinson’s for instance, a person has Parkinsonism symptoms, and I’ve never seen anyone who didn’t have it in the right hand, and that tells a story. So, in the right hand, there’s a Tremor there. That’s the Left Hemisphere.

Jeff: Right. So, you’re saying that people with Parkinson’s it’s their right hand that has the Tremor?

Ken: It’s 90% of the time—well, I’ve never seen anyone without it. So, then we say, “Okay, that means that the Right Hemisphere has got the lion’s share of the Energy, it’s in an overactive state, it’s taking away from the skills of the Left Hemisphere to run this side of the body and that’s why that Tremor is there. What we need to do then is to allow that Tremor to evolve and then get the person to be centered so it can get back over the other side.

Jeff: Right.

Ken: And, once it starts to go into that state where now they’ve got bilateral aspects taking place then the system can then go into Higher chaotic State and stabilise itself very rapidly.

Matt: Hang on. So, the more Chaotic the more stable we can become?

Ken: The more Chaotic, yeah. The crazier it gets is the better, and it’s just the process that you go through initially where exploiting the Chaos and the lens, what we understand bout Complexity Science and Chaos theory.
Now, I didn’t have that information all those years ago…

Jeff: How old were you in 1982 when you discovered…

Ken: That was when I was 25 at the time.
Now, at that point in time I thought, “In four years’ time if I get to compete in a body building competition I’ll be doing okay as long as I didn’t embarrass myself on stage.” In two years’ time I was, actually, competing in world championships.

Jeff: Wow!

Ken: That’s how rapidly it came about.

Jeff: I know there is going to be a lot of people listening to this podcast who are listening for Parkinson’s and Injury and Spina Bifida and people in wheelchairs—but gosh, we’ve got some pretty amazing stuff that Ken’s going to be sharing coming up—I know there’s also a lot of other people that are going to look at this for other practical theories as far as improving Muscle Tone, Strength Athletes, people like that as well.

Ken: It’s always happened, we definitely get Elite Athletes, and Jana Pittman was in a couple of weeks ago and got rid of the noise out of her system and she’s training better than ever, and I got a message from her coach that she’s just going awesome.

Jeff: So, for relatively healthy people trying to improve to become the pinnacle of whatever it is that they’re doing, Competing, Building Muscle, Running Fast, whatever it is, this can be used for them as well too?

Ken: It’s everything, because it’s so fundamental, and I’m guilty at International Science Comps, and no disrespect to his Holiness, but we could say, “We could put the Dalai Lama in these exercises, and it doesn’t matter what he believes or perceives about himself it will show very quickly how his system is, actually, interacting with the environment.” And, that’s where it comes down to things like Motor Neuron Disease, and every week we’re seeing people who have been diagnosed with Motor Neurons, and good science is about first identifying what it isn’t before you go saying what it is, and there’s these Conduction Tests that they do. You can get a healthy person and get that Conduction Test done and it will say, “Yeah, you’re a healthy person.” But, go and Stress the hell out of them and go and do another Conduction Test and see what that looks like, and it’s not going to be—so, imagine the mental state of a person going in to get tested for Motor Neuron Disease doing a Conduction Test, what sort of state do you think they’re in?

Matt: Mm.

Ken: The Sympathetic Nervous System is locked in, it’s 20% of the Peripheral Nervous System, so of course it’s not going to do well under those conditions, and all the people that I’ve seen who’ve been diagnosed they either have a Left or Right Hemisphere Dominance, which you see the result of that where there are Atrophies on the left hand side or the right hand side depending on what it is. If it’s a Left Hemisphere Dominance they’re easier to work with because they can rationalise things better than a person with a Right Hemisphere Dominance, they are very over reactive so we’ve got to detrain a lot of those Responses in people like that, you go to stand them up and there’s all this Hypervigilance taking place, and in that state of Hypervigilance the system is getting sensory deprived.
Now, the whole thing about Motor Neuron is it’s like blaming tennis balls every time there is a poor tennis serve, they’ll blame the Motor Neurons. The Motor Neurons are the slave to the Sensory—first I sense my environment, then I perceive it, I subjectively evaluate that, then I Motor Respond to it. So, noisy inputs are always going to infer noisy outputs, so it’s the Sensory Perceptional Motor Deficit, if anything. So, we’ve got to look at, “Okay, what do we need to do to enhance the perception of the person’s environment and open up the Sensory Pathways?” And, every single person that we see they’ve had this long term activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System, more Dominant on one side than the other side of their bodies.

Matt: Yeah.

Ken: And, once they get told they’ve got Motor Neuron Disease their trajectory dives south very quickly.

Jeff: Is that because they then start to believe and acceptance…

Ken: That’s just “pointing the bone”, with no disrespect to Aboriginal people, but that’s just exactly what it’s like.

Jeff: I’ve seen that with Cancer as well too. A lot of people who have had Cancer for a long time and it gets diagnosed and they give up. I had a friend who battled with Cancer for a long time, and I saw a change in his psyche, and he had battled Cancer for several years, but he gave up, he was dead within three months.

Ken: Yes, that’s exactly right. It all goes back to the value and meaning that people put on those states themselves, and when you show them with simple tests that we do—like Proprioception and the fact that when you understand what they’re saying about Motor Neuron Disease you would see redundancies in the Brain which means that all our Sensory Information, whether it’s Visual Information or Auditory Information, Symmatocentric Information coming into the system that it would be patchy.
Now, those people they would not be able to track—if you were looking at a pendulum swinging, for example, they would do that in sequences rather than just a smooth transition. If we have them in the machines and they’re with a light weight they’re moving that across their body and they’re tracking that very smoothly, and I can, categorically, say that’s not Motor Neurons because there are no signs of redundancy or patchy areas where the Sensory Information is going in and then the Motor Neurons aren’t responding to it, because it’s even all the way through.

Jeff: Right.

Ken: Proprioception; if a person can get up and touch their nose with their eyes closed and touch their fingers together out in space, that’s not Motor Neurons because there would be nothing smooth about that, they would be all jittery and very random.

Jeff: So, are you say there’s a lot of people out there that have been told they’ve got Motor Neuron Disease that don’t but have accepted it, and so therefore they’re manifesting as though they have it?

Ken: Well, definitely. Because, we see that all the time. You know, you’ve just met a person down there who’s had that disorder diagnosed last week, and the return of Function into his body that’s a very overwhelming and a very surreal experience for them, and all those people are doing is stepping out of their own way, stimulating their systems through their Executive Function, so they’re applying the Stimulus to themselves, and then allowing their system to self-organise and enhance its own complexity again. So, you’re literally watching things come back online, you’re watching the legs just slowly starting to come back online, and you never ever get sick of looking at that.

Jeff: No, I bet.

Ken: And, the emotional responses that the patients have to that, that locks you into that and every Monday when we turn up to start our new patients it’s as exciting as if it’s the first Monday that we’ve ever done it.

Jeff: I bet.

Matt: Interestingly, a lot of these Disease State and Disorders and Syndromes and that sort of stuff, the diagnosis is not a solid science anyway, it’s a combination of symptoms. So, they go through and say, here’s a combination of signs, symptoms and objective measurements that we have decided gives you this diagnosis. Interestingly, my history as a Naturopath and doing a lot of weird stuff with Frequency Machines, and I’ve told Ken this story once before, but we had some case studies with Multiple Sclerosis where they had the MRI’s and they showed all the Lesions all over the Nerves and everything, well we were capable of removing the Lesions, but the person didn’t change. So, we’ve managed to change all of the parameters used to diagnose it, and in some cases they went back and said, “Well, your diagnosis for MS may have to change because you don’t have all these features,” but you’re stuck, they have not changed physically.
Where Ken, on the other side, coming from the other direction, is getting people functional, whether the Lesions are there or not. It doesn’t seem to matter.

Ken: Those Attractors are there, and we are designed to maintain our patterns of behavior, so it’s in their best interest, as a survivor, to do that. So, if people have had a stroke, for example, and it’s been let go and they start to adopt these patterns of walking, the Brain just detects all that and says, “Yeah, this is how walk now,” and it just does every single thing it needs to do to try and maintain that skill. So, it’s no different to how I maintain my skill for typing, and I think that I’m not looking but my lower field of vision is picking that up and it’s helping me out there beyond my awareness. So, all my skills for my tennis serve, all that gets embedded into the system, in these networks, and by association, my visual input, my auditory input, it all becomes reference points that stabilise those patterns within it, and we need that to be able to function in so many ways. But, it doesn’t have a bias, it doesn’t do good, bad, or indifferent; if there are patterns of behaviour starting to emerge, whether Pain is involved with that, or Anxiety is involved in that, at a level of subjective evaluation I might not like that, but my system doesn’t care, it’s just like, “This is what we do.”
So, there are Cells in the body that get addicted to the Molecules of Guilt and Anxiety and Fear and Prejudices and Bias, and every time they’re looking for their fix it’s like a reverse engineering process, up to the Hypothalamus, through the Limbic Cell, “What do we need to do to get out fix?” and all of a sudden a behaviour will be elicited from that.

Matt: Mm.

Jeff: It’s amazing, I was working with a guy called Tom Bowen many, many years ago and he would be able to put his hands on people, even look at people they way they would walk, and he would be able to say, “I can determine from looking at your body where you might have areas of Anxiety, or you might be Frustrated,” or what have you, because they would manifest. I mean my very simple Brain would look at things like the bitter person who’s twisted at the end where they’re all hunched over. Is that the sort of thing you’re talking about?

Ken: Yeah, definitely. At the end of the day, Posture rules. We know so much about Posture, we got some very delicate and discreet measurements about the relationship Posture has to our Emotional Integrity and how we perceive the environment. You don’t see Depressed people walking through shopping centres chest out, shoulders back, and the reality of it is that to maintain the state of Depression you need to maintain those Postural states, because everything is Metabolically relative to those states, so your Sensory Perception, all your Feedback Loops, it’s all relative to those states. If you enhance your posture and you get that chest out and shoulders back you’ve changed the rules, you’ve altered the initial conditions of that system, so therefore Depression and that other state—now, we use Depression to describe the fact that all Disease and Disorder can only be sustained under certain Metabolic conditions, so it’s like a mathematical rule of what MS might mean to this person, or Motor Neurons might mean to another person, we can take those measurements in the first 30 seconds they engage with the exercises down there, we can say, “Okay, well this is the mathematical rule that describes this Disease and this Disorder. So, if this person is a 3D manifestation of these initial conditions then what do we need to do? Alter the initial conditions.

Jeff: Right.

Ken: So, as soon as we start changing those rules, changing the Posture, altering their perception of what’s taking place, allowing all those Fears and Anxieties to emerge, and we’re deliberately perturbing the system to expose those states within the system. So, if you’re going to change a Complex Adaptive System, which is what we are, you need to target it’s sensitive vulnerable regions to do it, and that’s a bottom up approach, so we’re making bottom up changes to the system; most therapies are top down, and the system is too robust in those areas so we’ve got to come bottom up where the person is really vulnerable.
Spinal Cord Injury is the classic example of that, where you take people back and you put them on those tipping points where they, all of a sudden, feel like they’re going to fall over, and you’re exploiting that, you’re holding them there, so there’s all this uncertainty occurring, and boy, you should see what legs do.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Well, I really want to talk to you about that, in fact there are a lot of things I want to talk to you about, and certainly I want to talk about 60 Minutes and also with John McClean. And, maybe we’ll come back to that. So Matt, do you want to ask a question?

Matt: While we’re talking about this, because there are a couple of things that have just popped into my mind. We talk with a lot of body builders, a lot of athletes, we work with a lot of personal trainers, and they’re always talking about Muscle Mind Connection, but it’s all in the head. I noticed with a lot of people the more they focus on Muscle Mind Connection they’re all thinking, thinking, thinking, and there’s a lot of long term memory, there’s a lot of Sympathetic Nerve Innovation in the process of actually trying to acquire a Muscle Mind Connection for the purpose of doing the exercise right.
So, what you’re saying there, and correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re almost going the other way, you’re almost going Somatopsychic, you’re almost trying to get them to forget about their head and just shake.

Ken: Well, to let their system sort it out, it knows what it needs to do. Like, if you look at flocks of birds flying in unison it’s a deterministic system because we know what the rules are that allow that to happen, you’re not going to understand that by studying one bird or two birds out of that flock, you need to study the system as a whole.

Jeff: Right, so creating an idea.

Ken: But, it’s Chaotic because we don’t know what it’s going to do next, so in that sense Deterministic Chaos is a contradiction in terms, but our systems are very much like that, and it’s Adaptive. Now, when we start to see the dynamics appear in people’s systems we can look at that, and if it doesn’t look like flocks of birds then there’s work to be done. So, you see this Periodicity where it’s stuck in a certain state where it’s just repeating these patterns over and over and over, so it’s like a record that’s stuck on a groove; that’s Periodic behaviour. Now, if a person’s Heart was doing that, because it would be relevant to every scale of their system, then that’s heading towards Arrhythmia, so instead of having this variability over time.
Obviously, we don’t know quite what the flocks of birds are going to do, but the fact that I can use my hands to describe what flocks of birds flying in unison look like, it means that we recognise certain patterns about that, certain behaviours that they do. And, every single human being has their own way of doing that. You’d be more likely to see a lot of consistency if you were to test one animal, one zebra against another zebra, but human beings are incredibly and wonderfully different from one person to the next under the same circumstances because we’re all subjectively evaluating the environment in a completely different and unique way.
So, we’ve got to allow that system to get rid of that. And, well that shows up as noise, and to get back to your inquiry there, Matt, we did have the head coach of the UFC in here last week, and he had been diagnosed, been told he had Motor Neurons, and that was just devastating news to that gentleman. So, that generated massive amounts of Anxiety which was causing all sorts of complications for him, and he’s done an excellent testimonial which we’ll be definitely putting up on a Vimeo and so forth. But, in that testimonial he admitted that they just seemed to have got it all wrong. Like every repetition that he was doing with those weights, where there was all this Aggression, he was lifting the weights and he was like, “Ugh,” on every single repetition. So, you’re entraining those Responses into your system with something that you have control over, and he’s exhibiting very high levels of Anxiety and Fear.
Now, to walk outside of the gym the Energy Cost to be able to keep your system stable so that you don’t go, “Rah,” at the first person that crosses your path, that costs a lot of Energy to be able to inhibit your system to not do that. Because, when those Neurons are firing and with the weights that they’re lifting they’re very strong signals that you’re drawing associations to.

Jeff: Yeah. I’d imagine you’d be getting Cortisol and other negative things involved too?

Matt: Well, my point of questioning was, I was leading on to the fact that the majority of people out there are requesting or using Stimulants. So, there’s this massive trend of people going, “I can’t go to the gym unless I do want to kill someone.” So, I’ve got to have this legal high, or this Stimulant that puts me into a state of Aggression so I can yell and scream and maintain enough Energy to do that while I’m at the gym.

Ken: That’s right, Matt.

Matt: So, what’s happening in those people there that are training a certain way, where they’re isolating Muscles and they’re focusing on particular—it’s just so organised and structured, there’s no…

Ken: That’s right, there’s just too much order and it is very Sympathetic, and of course, they’re entraining that into the systems, so the Immune System, of course, is getting booted up all the time to deal with it. So, to the system it’s as if it’s under some massive threat. And, symptoms always mean the same thing, so if you went into a bedroom at night and seen one of your loved ones and their heart rate was 180 beats per minute and sweating profusely and gasping for breath and red in the face, what would you do?

Jeff: Call for an ambulance.

Ken: Well, you’d call for help. Now, when you see a person on a treadmill doing exactly the same thing, there’s no difference, that’s saying that this person’s system is very far away from its Allostatic Ideal State. The only difference between the person on the treadmill and the person in the bedroom is that one person believes that they’re doing themselves a favour and the other person is having an Anxiety Attack or whatever. So, the person with the Anxiety Attack, one of the strategies is to breathe into the bad, and the bag doesn’t really do anything, it just gives the person a focal point to be able to start to stabilise around. And, that’s why we’ve got to detrain athletes from that way of thinking and then build them right from the bottom up again, so that, eventually, they learn to be able to deal with very high levels of Stress of Demand but in a very composed orderly fashion.

Jeff: It’s fascinating.

Ken: And, the key principle is, we can only ever be in one of two possible states; you’re either in a state of growth or you’re in a state of protection, you can’t be in the middle. It’s like trying to be happy and sad at the same time. So, when you see those sprinters at the Olympic Games watch them preparing to get into their blocks before that 100 metre final, so if you watch them they’re composed. They’ve got to be so composed and relaxed, they’ve got to respond to that signal within 15 to 16 milliseconds on average. The startle time of the average person is about 60 to 80 milliseconds.

Jeff: Wow!

Matt: Yeah, right.

Ken: So, you know what that would mean to a 100 metre final.

Jeff: They’re lost.

Ken: And, then when you watch them sprinting, and nobody can dispute the fact that that’s absolute maximum human effort. When you watch them sprinting in slow motion their jaws are relaxed and everything just floats.

Matt: Yeah.

Ken: Now, the liberation of Energy from that system is at its highest point because of the composure of the person, as soon as they start tensing up because, “I’ve got Usain Bolt in front of me and now I’ve got to try to beat him,” but as soon as I start tensing up it’s all over.

Jeff: And, obviously that’s just one example, but that could be any sport, that could be gym, that could be tennis that could be anything.

Ken: Of course it is. Like, if a tennis player tensed up their so called Core as they’re serving the ball they’re not going to get the velocity through that, they need everything to float. Like the flocks of birds, it’s that flow of information and they’re very impervious to perturbation, so if a predator came into that flock you’d watch it split apart and then it just comes back together again, so it’s robust.

Matt: It’s interesting. So, with that concept, that whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, and the fact that people are taking the Stimulants, by being angry in the gym, by training with that sort of intensity, it creates exactly the same Biochemical Reaction as a life threatening Stress.
Ken: Absolutely.

Matt: Your body can’t afford to wait to see if it is a life threatening Stress or you’re just torturing yourself in the gym. So, every time these people are doing this, if this becomes an ongoing pattern that’s how people get stuck, is it?

Ken: They definitely get stuck in that, and that becomes transferable out into their real world, and how they interact with their world and how they’re perceiving their world. Because, the dominance of what they’re doing when they’re training in the gym, which is mainly a Right Brain type of action anyway, which is very reactive to things. Now, with a Left Brain, and this is the guy that says, “Come on Ken, it’s okay, don’t worry about it,” and it rationalises things and puts some value and meaning on to what’s taking place. We don’t either of one of those to be active, we need to be centred, so it’s not about Positive Thinking or Negative Thinking it’s about being centred.

Matt: It’s about not thinking.

Ken: Yeah, and just being centred, and we do that exercise with people walking with their eyes closed where they can pick the point that they’re going to walk to, which is like a goal they’re going to accomplish, there’s nothing in front of them, they can see that there’s nothing going to interfere with that, and they close their eyes and off they go. Then, you watch their behaviour, whether they’re over evaluating it, or they’ll veer off to the left or they’ll veer off to the right. Whatever side they veer off it’s actually that Hemisphere that’s been activated, because it’s got the lion’s share of the Energy, the other Hemisphere then can’t run that side of the body so it inhibits the step on that side. So, you can say to the person if they’ve veered off to the left, I say, “Well, you were probably over evaluating that,” and they say, “Yes I was,” or if they veered off to the right, self-doubt or those types of things have come into play.
So, eventually, they learn to be centred and not think, it’s just, “There’s my goal,” and off they go and then they learn, “Okay, what mental state did I have to be in to accomplish that goal?” because it’s all representative and symbolic to life out in the real world.

Jeff: I can almost feel the trainers, and I want to get into some of the serious injuries, the spinal cord injuries and what have you, but I can feel a great majority of our listeners who are going to the gym and training shouting at the podcast at the moment, going, “Okay then, if that’s true, if I’m jacking up the music and I’m listening to my Death Metal rock, I’m taking my Stimulants, I’m amping myself up, I’m attacking that weight like it’s an enemy.” If that’s wrong then, Ken, could you paint a picture of what looks right?

Ken: Well, I said we can only be in one of two possible states, we’re either in a state of growth or a state of protection. And, if you’re going to grow your vegetables at home you don’t go and get the blowtorch and stress the hell out of the thing, “Well that’s going to make them grow,” you’ve got to nurture and it’s got to feel good. You’ve got to be able to place value and meaning on what you’re doing or your system doesn’t even have any desire to store it as a memory in any way, it’s just a transient experience. So, Modulation of Neurons and getting them to cross talk in an organised, synchronised manner with one another that takes things to come in at a certain speed, it’s how we learn to do anything. If I gave you some complicated literature to read, a couple of sentences, and I said, “Jeff, I’m going to be back in two minutes and I need you to recite that off to me by heart,” well, if you try to hurry up or you get anxious about doing it you’re not going to be able to do that very well, but if you take your time and relax and develop a strategy and composure then you’ll form a memory about that. Now, once you’ve got that memory you can read it any speed you like, but you’ve got to form those pathways, you’ve got to get those connections done. So, the way that people train with weights it would be as if you walk down the street and you saw one of your mates coming towards you, and as he got towards you, you went to say, “Hi,” and he slapped you on the face. Well, he might get the first hit in but I’m sure you’d probably put your hand up to block the second one, well that’s what Neurons do, if they get a hit from a neighbouring Neuron then they’ll hyperpolarise very quickly, very rapidly, because they’re trying to protect themselves. So, Neurons they’re like individuals, they’re no difference to us sitting here right now, no two Neurons look the same, they make decisions about who they talk to and who they don’t talk to, so there are societies and they form columns of Neurons and that’s one society, and even in one column of Neurons in the Cortex there’s 100,000 Neurons in one of those columns, and every single Neuron is structurally positioned to talk to every other Neuron, but it only chooses 10 to 15% to do it, and that’s by choice.
Then, that society has to communicate with the society next door, but it’s all under friendly fire and perception, once a threat comes in then it’s got to go into Energy Conservation. Molecules of Growth aren’t the Molecules of Protection.

Jeff: You were saying earlier that when you began training that you thought, “Okay, I might hit this by the time I’m 29 in five years’ time,” but you were able to compete, at a high level, and I don’t know if you won at that stage, within two years. So, that was, obviously, implementing fundamentally, right back them this sort of principle.

Ken: That’s right. I came from Mackay and I wasn’t mixing with the body building community at all, and I went down and won the overall Mr Queensland, so it was like, “Where did this guy come from? He must be taking some drugs that we don’t know about.” I was just in Mackay by myself and I learnt posing from looking at books and pictures and that sort of thing.

Jeff: Wow! For the record, I know that back then Steroids were illegal, I believe. But, were you using Steroids at that point?

Ken: No. That’s the point. Every single thing I’d done was my own natural back, but because of the fact that I could exhibit quite strongly, I’d gotten strong at bench pressing and squatting and all those types of things, as well as having this body that I could train to a really high level because I knew how to maintain composure under extreme circumstances.

Jeff: Fascinating.

Ken: So, that maintain is high levels of Anabolic States where I could go beyond areas where other people couldn’t go, simply because I learnt to control arousal and maintain that composure. Then, when it got to going over to the Universe for the first time, which was in 1984 after I’d come second at the Australia, when I went over to the World Championships and the Universe I beat the guy who won the Australia by two places. I came back and got straight away invited into going to the Pros in Australia at the time, which was pretty good, and I made a successful career out of that back in those days. I had come from Mackay but I had to go to Perth to be part of the professional body building.
So, it was pretty heady days, but I had a young family, I had to be very careful with what that all meant to me, and there’s a high value that I placed on that, and it was only that the Stock Exchange crashed, I’d gone back over to Perth at the time, and when that Stock Exchange crashed I had come back to Mackay.

Jeff: That was in ’87?

Ken: That was in ’87, yeah. And, then we set up the cricket center that Matt was referring to before as the first base. That was when I started practicing these techniques with other people and became very successful at rehabilitating people, that’s when I was invited to go into the Pioneer Valley Hospital as part of the upgrade of that hospital with the very holistic focused rehabilitation program there. Now, that had never been done before, either, to take what would be perceived as a gym into a hospital, so we had to get the accreditation with Australian Hospital Accreditation Committee, and all our things had to be disclosed as to what we were doing. I couldn’t tell them all the stuff that I was doing, and I never really needed to go very far into the Tremor with people, all I was ever doing was teaching them to control arousal and to monitor changes so that they were going through things slowly and if they felt Anxiety appear for no particular reason, we’d rationalise and say, “Now, think about the circumstances. Here we are in a safe environment, all you’re being asked to do is stay relaxed and stay composed, and you’re doing this leg curl and all of a sudden Anxiety appears. That’s not the machine doing that, that’s in your system, that’s in the Schema in your Brain, it’s identifying where these stored Anxieties are. So, just hold it there, and cognitively resolve it, and then move on.”
Now, in that scale of things, every millimetre matters, so there are Neurons that know my fingers are here, and there are other ones that know what’s there, and in the Association Pathways they’re all overlapping. But, that’s what explains why when a person might be doing a Pec Fly, for example, slowly, and all of a sudden some vivid recollection of events might appear, they might get a memory of something or an emotion might emerge, because it’s tapping into those Associative Pathways.

Jeff: I know that happens a lot with people losing weight, there seems to be a lot of emotion with people that have dropped weight. One of the things I really want to talk about is John McClean, and I know you were on 60 Minutes not so long ago, and we’ve got a lot of international listeners as well too, not just guys here in Australia, and I think most people around the world know what 60 Minutes is. Now, obviously that was a phenomenon, and it’s something that really piqued the interest of the mainstream media. So, could you explain what happened there?

Ken: Yeah Jeff, it was in terms of how other people perceived it, but it was on the back of—well, how John got to be there was Pete Jacobs who was at the time the current Hawaiian Iron Man, so Pete had been in lots of trouble for about six to eight weeks where he couldn’t run, he couldn’t train, his sponsors were obviously getting a bit worried about what he was going to be doing that year, and so he found his way to me through another friend. Anyway, that was in Emerald, I was out at Emerald at the time. So, a long story short, in three days Pete was over at the park doing 100 metre sprints off the mark, no warm up, no stretching, and as a consequence of that he went back and he seriously downgraded his stretching program.

Jeff: Right. So, he was over stretching?

Ken: When you understand that at a fundamental level, “What are you doing?” You’re releasing information from the system, no different than if you stretch a rubber band, you’re losing Energy and information from that system. We need to maintain—if you’ve had a great workout that’s information you put into your system, but if you go and start stretching it then now you’re losing the information that you need to form Adaptions.

Jeff: Oh Man, this is so counter intuitive to everything I’ve ever heard. It’s fantastic.

Ken: Well it is, but it’s fundamentally correct because we understand what Entropy is and the measurement of disorder.

Jeff: Oh I’m never going to argue with you, I know what you’re doing with people downstairs. So, what happened with John?

Ken: So, when John came, and the part that got lost in the equation was that when John came it was purely about his Chronic Pain, and he was suffering for many, many years, and medication, and his wife Amanda, they couldn’t sleep together because John was restless all night, up and down, and everybody was losing sleep in the house and they had a little boy. So, that’s why John came to me. Now, of course, I understand a lot about the Nervous System and Central Pattern Generators and all that, and when I started to take John through the therapy, so we were obviously focusing on upper body exercises…

Jeff: Because, John is a paraplegic?

Ken: A paraplegic. So complete T9 to T12, he’s an amazing character. By the time he came he’d already swum the English Channel, he was the first paraplegic to do Kona, he’s in the Hall of Fame at Kona, and I’ll extrapolate on that a little bit later with what his plans are for this year. But, when he started to go through the movements I could see that as he was opening his system up and the Chaotic Rhythms that were appearing in his upper body simultaneously they were appearing in his legs. And, I tell this story fondly and I’ve shared this with John before, but the fact that I knew of John McClean but I didn’t know him. So, when I’m actually watching these dynamics I was like, “Is this guy for real? This can’t happen,” and there were all these lines of communication were there, they’re fixed up, and I was very excited to see that because I thought, “Well, if he’s not aware that they’re there—his system has done this incredible job at fixing itself up, it’s just that nobody knows because nobody’s had the technique or the belief system that it could be done.
So, I mentioned to John about the dynamics and he said, “Oh yeah. Is there anything that we can get to tie my legs down because they’re spasming really bad? and I said, “They’re not spasms Mate, they’re very highly organised movements that are taking place and they’re very much in synchronised action with your upper arms. We’ll talk about that later.” So, we went home from that session, and remembering that John has just met me also, we’ve had this one session together. He videos everything, so we were playing it up on the big screen and I said, “Now, see what’s taking place in your legs?” and he said, “Yeah, crazy isn’t it?” and I said, “Well, it’s not so much crazy, but I can’t really see why you’re not walking.” So, you can imagine the delivery…

Jeff: How did he take that?

Ken: Well, you can only just imagine, he was like, “Is this guy really crazy? I’ve just met this guy and he’s telling me I should be walking.”

Jeff: Because, he’s been a paraplegic for how long?

Ken: For 25 years at that point.

Matt: For 25 years!

Ken: And, despite all his wonderful things, of course he wanted to be able to walk again, but, of course, it was just like a dream that he had. So, I said, “What is it you want to do?” and he said, “Well, I want to walk,” and I said, “Right, let’s go and do it walking.” So, there was no hesitation, we went down to the gym the next day and I said, “Right, we’re just going to do every single thing as if everything is online, because everything is online, and we’re just going to treat it that way.” Within three days he took his first unassisted steps, and 18 months after we met he did an able bodied triathlon.

Jeff: He did it 18 months after you met, a paraplegic of 25 years? He didn’t just walk he competed?

Ken: In an able bodied triathlon. So, he did the swim, which he can swim like a fish anyway, but the bike ride, which was 30 k’s, and then the 10 kilometre—well, he had to walk fast for the thing, and he had to have his braces on his legs because there are these orthopaedic corrections that need to be done to improve that. But, just recently he rode 180 kilometres with Steve Waugh in a charity ride on a bike.

Jeff: That’s just amazing. Out of curiosity, and I don’t like to get too much into negatives, but what was the body that he competed against, the other paraplegics, what they’re saying, they’re calling him out, or they’re saying, “Where can I get this treatment?”

Ken: Well, lots of controversy. I mean there are the people at the top end who run the show, and you could sort of call them the experts in spinal cord injury, and that’s what happened when it got onto 60 Minutes, is that despite the fact that I’d done an extensive interview with 60 Minutes explaining the science, explaining how it all happens, none of that information was used, and they headed straight to the people at North Sydney Spinal Cord Unit asking the so called experts of the day about what they thought happened. It got called a ‘miracle’, they couldn’t explain how it worked, but I could perfectly explain why he was walking.

Matt: Mm.

Ken: Now, that’s John McClean. You can’t say that that’s going to be with every person, but what came out of the whole John McClean situation was—well, firstly, his pain had gone completely.

Jeff: Right. He was suffering with a lot of pain?

Ken: That’s right, and that’s why he was there in the first place. And, that’s the part—there are so many people around the world suffering from pain and this obviously imposes upon that domain very quickly. So, with John, what came out of that was the fact that we could say, “Okay, there’s most likely many, many people in wheelchairs around the world whose systems have done a wonderful job of creating Pathways around the Lesion, but they don’t know because nobody has the technique to get in there. It’s something that—the world’s best people who work in this area they’re right back in the ‘90s when they were putting complete Lesions in cats and mice’s spines. They could see that there was a difference between the mice who’d been trained on the treadmills beforehand and the ones that weren’t, and they were the controls, and they could see that the mice that had been pre trained, when those Lesions were put in, they actually recovered quite fast. But, they couldn’t work out how it was all happening, so they said, “Well, their Central Pattern Generators seem to be communicating Super Spinally,” and rah, rah, rah, and then they said, “Well, why can’t a human being do that? They’re a mammal.”
So, they had all these hypothoses as to why it couldn’t happen, and then they worked out that that wasn’t true, because they were sort of saying, “The Central Pattern Generator has been replaced by the Cortex.” And, right back in the ‘90s they then said, “Well, there is no reason why a human being can’t do it. We’ve just got to work harder at trying to find how we can get around it.” But it’s this belief system, as well, that goes with it. The cats and mice don’t have a belief system, the moment that Lesion isn’t there they just set about their business of trying to get those legs to move from that innate capacity to survive. So, the fact is, with those cats and mice things start to occur Super Spinal where the Lesion is still there. But, it’s no different than if a big log fell across a busy highway, there are people who need to get home, so they’ll find a way around it. And, it’s that length of time that people are sitting in their chairs and they’re doing things, and as long as they’re trying to do things that seems to activate these Pathways.
Now, with Emma, who is sitting downstairs down there, she has a very similar Lesion to John McClean, and within the first week, and Emma’s had three years in the chair and nothing much really happened for her, she could fumblingly stand up on her left leg for a period of time, but now, within the first few days she had voluntary control over her right leg, and by the end of that week she was standing up, completely just holding herself up standing on both legs, and now she’s starting to really take voluntary steps forward. So, she’ll walk. But, here system, again, as soon as we started to stimulate immediately we started to see these patterns where it had actually created these Pathways for itself.

Jeff: So, is that an indication for you, Ken, when you’re working with somebody, with any injury, you look for this Tremor? If that Tremor is not there does that mean that it’s more difficult?

Ken: Well, we’ve had people who are complete—like T8s and T10s, and initially yes, all bets are off. But, just even if we get in there and we just start to move their legs a little bit in sync with what’s taking place…

Jeff: So, you’re working backwards?

Ken: Now, they can’t feel what we’re doing but the system can, and it starts to generate these patterns and the more they open up their system, and as they start that Chaotic Tremor increases, which is all taking place up in the Brain and the Cortex, of course, as that electrical field becomes more enhanced, just like the field with the flocks of birds flying it’s as if more and more birds are joining in and neighbouring Neurons are starting to become stimulated, even though they’re not joined or connected to those other Neurons, that starts to send this velocity of information down the Spinal Cord and it seems to just jump past the Lesion. So, that’s when you start to see the legs becoming activated, and like I said, especially when we perturb their system by putting them in those points where they feel like they’re going to tip backwards, and you’ll see the spasticity occur in their legs, and the legs will go to lock out.
Now, there’s another thing that they try to inhibit. They see the spasticity appear in the person’s legs and they try to block—the Spinal Cord cannot produce that. So, the only way that spasticity or that tension appears is because the Indirect Cortical Spinal Pathway, which provides the background tone for our bodies—that synapses on to the Medulla, and that’s above the Lesion anyway. That receives input from the emotional regions of the Brain and that’s when you get Anxious, that’s why you tense up in your body. They’re doing exactly the same thing. So, that tells you, very clearly, that there are messages getting through there somehow, or they would not have that state at all.

Jeff: Have you been able to get anybody with that level of severity to get back to walking again?

Ken: Not walking but we’ve certainly got them doing leg curls and doing all sort of things, and being able to stand up, so they’re getting to that point. Then, they’ve got to connect—you can watch their legs when they’re in that—the legs will start to generate walking patterns, but they’ve lost that cognitive connection to it, so the connection back into that will never be the same as it used to be, they’ve got to form new cognitive connections into that.

Jeff: What do you think, for those people is the best prognosis, Ken? How far do you think—do you think that’s probably as good—and, that’s great, by the way, I mean obviously that’s fantastic—how far do you think somebody with a severe injury like that could go?

Ken: Well, we see John as the example, and I, with a smile on my face, I believe he will do Kona as an able bodied triathlon.

Jeff: What’s Kona for those that don’t know?

Ken: That’s the Hawaiian Iron Man.

Matt: Remember Cameron Hughes that we were working with a few years ago, preparing for that?

Jeff: Yeah, yeah, the stages.

Ken: It’s a three-kilometre swim, I think, and 180-kilometre bike ride and then the marathon immediately after it. And, John knows, he can do the 180-kilometre bike ride because he did that with Steve Waugh, and in Kona the lava hot fields are a bit different, but still he’s John McClean, he won’t not want to do it.

Matt: That talk of Iron Man just reminded me of a question I wanted to ask you today. What is Pain? What is your interpretation of Pain? I mean I always looked at it as resistance to change and tried to explain it, but what is Pain?

Ken: Well, there’s the direct athways receptors like if i put my finger on a hotplate, well there’s withdrawal and that can actually take place at the Spinal Cord, and then we perceive what took place later on. But, the Pathway, when you’re looking at Chronic Pain, for example, there’s Pathways, like long term Fear where there are projections from the Basolateral Nucleus of the Amygdala going into the Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis long term. Then we’ve got Anxiety, so long term Fear can be converted into Anxiety, so if you’re dealing with people with Anxiety Disorders then you’ve sort to got to discover what the long term Fear has been. A lot of people when they say, “I feel Anxious,” it’s not really what Anxiety is all about, they’ve just got a feeling of Anxiety, but if it gets into a Chronic state well then the reality of it is that in that Amygdala, when people have got these Fear states, the Dendrites in the Amygdala they increase in mass, but in the Hippocampus all the Cortisol that’s related to how they’re feeling, that has a deteriorating effect on the Hippocampi, so eventually they can be Anxious but not know why.
But, long term Anxiety can then be converted into Pain, so Pain does not have to have a biological cause to be there, so it’s a Perceptional error, so they’re Conversion Disorders, primarily. Is that the sort of Pain you’re talking about, Matt?

Matt: A lot of people will explain the reason why they can’t get past a certain point or they can’t achieve the results, they’ll talk about Pain as being a barrier. How do you get through that barrier, being Pain, because I can imagine some guys that have been in wheelchairs for a period of time, it’s going to hurt doing what you’re doing?

Ken: But, it is teaching them bottom up to have new control skills. So, going to the point where you’ve stimulated their Nervous System at a very mild level, and when they’re going slow they’ll start to get those sensations that Pain is emerging. Now, if you look at the whole schematics of that, so okay, we’ve got the Inflammation coming into the system, every bit of information that comes in from the outside will go through the Thalamus, through the Limbic System, through the Amygdala, the Hippocampus, then up to the Cortex for subjective evaluation, then the Motor Response comes back through those Pathways, so it’s being augured by that.
So, if we know all about the information going into the system, because that’s very measurable, we know that those machines have fixed plane trajectories and they’re weight stable, then we see these errors are coming out, and then one of those Perceptional errors might be Pain, it’s painful, then that’s all it is, it’s a Sensory Perceptional Error, so we’ve got to correct it. So, that’s no different to correcting your tennis serve that’s suddenly gone wrong. So, we’ve gone, “Okay Jeff, we’ll get some video footage of your tennis serve and let’s have a look it, we’ll slow it right down. Oh, see what you’re doing with your foot? Somehow that foot has gone rogue on you and now it’s causing you to mislay your tennis serve.” So, what would you have to do then as the athlete who’s got this bung tennis serve? Well, you’d have to start cognitively setting about correcting it, you can’t just throw 300 tennis balls up in the air and hit them and hope that it’s going to change it. You’ve then got to close your eyes, start to go through your tennis serve slowly and you’ll detect where your foot is about to make that error. So, that means that there’s Schema in the Brain that are responsible for that, so you’ve got to destabilise that Schema, and then to generate, not old ones, you can’t redo anything in biology, it’s just upgrading it from where it is and getting the system to modulate that to be able to do what you want it do.
So, when the person first starts to perceive that there’s a Pain experience happening, well a): we’ve got to determine which side of the body it’s on and that tells us which hemisphere is involved, and the simple process of getting centred and not putting awareness on to it, because as soon as you put awareness on that Pain that’s a positive feedback loop, it amplifies it very quickly, and they’re learning to detrain those responses. So, there are Neurons in the Brain, every single experience we have involved Neurons firing in certain sequences to create those experiences for us, but if we’re not happy with that then we’ve got to change how that all looks. Now, you can’t do that through Meditation, you can’t do that through other forms of therapy, they can come in and temporarily distract the system or create some other type of sensory diversion away from that, but it’s only temporary, you haven’t changed the underlying state of the system.
So, the person is the only one who can fix that themselves, and they need three things to line up: the perception’s got to be there, an action has got to be taking place, and they’ve got to be cognitively involved with it. So, perception, action and cognition have all got to be at the same time. So, I perceive my environment, there’s an action taking place that I’m doing, and I’m cognitively organising the outcome how I want it to be. So, that’s the only way to do it, and in that sense it is like Meditation with Resistance Exercise but in a very functional manner. The rules are that we need to have the Posture, so we have a Growth Posture, which is chest out shoulders back, and we have a Protective Posture which is all crunched in. So, if we’re watching a person doing an exercise and they’ve got a very mild weight on there and they’re moving it slowly and you start to see them adopt those Protective Postures that’s their default, that’s how they’re doing it all the time out in the real world, their system just doesn’t suddenly start in inventing responses because they’re sitting on a Pec Fly or a Leg Press, they just refer to some sensory generalisation that they’ve been dealing with all of the time.
So, we can monitor their behaviours and we can learn within one session we can learn a whole heap about that person, what are their defaults, we can get them on the Leg Press, for example, and you say, “Okay, these are the rules Ken, you take that off there, now it’s just a bit of steel that you’ve got up there, no big deal, you’re in control of this. Now, you’ve just got to move this down very slowly, it’s quite invasive so just control your arousal going down, but only take it to a point where you can maintain that control.” So, 90% of the time people go beyond that point, and all of a sudden now they’ve got Anxiety, now they’ve got to react to that Anxiety, now they’ve got to push that up fast,” so that is what they do out in their real world, they bite off more than they can chew, even though they’ve got the control, they’ve been given all those instructions, and yet they still put themselves in a situation that generates a lot of Anxiety to get out of. Now, they’re behaviours that they’ve got to correct, because that is an effect of their default behaviours.
Now, because it is a system and it’s all sensitive to a whole heap of initial conditions, if we see Proprioception, for example, if they’re moving and they’ve got their eyes closed and they’re moving the Pec Fly across, and they might believe that they’ve got their hands in the middle, but they’ll be twisted off to one side or the other, and that shows which Hemisphere was dominant in so doing. Now, when you look at that that’s Proprioception, and when you correct that with their eyes closed that feels really weird for them, all of a sudden they feel like they’re twisting off to one side, but perception is perceptions, so that means that I perceive my world as here but when I actually look it’s over there. Now, that’s happening at every scale of their perception of experience of the outside world, all of the time. Through certain Pathways you change on another exercise, and you see a whole heap of other Pathways of the Associative Schema that their Proprioception might be different but their responses to how they’re behaving under those circumstances is also different, and that’s relative to other experiences that they have out in the real world.
Like, with the Unilateral machines when they’re doing the Lat Pulldown and they’re sitting up straight, when they’re coming down the goal is to keep the trapeze really relaxed because that is the Flight or Fight Pathway, so as soon as the Trapeze engages we can safely say the Sympathetic Nervous System is online. So, they can learn to relax that and bring that down no problem at all, most people can do that quiet easily, but when they go to go back up, when the Stress is leaving their body that’s when they tense their Traps back up, and that’s really counter-intuitive because they’ve taken the Stress on but they harbour it, they can’t let it go, where it shouldn’t matter whether it’s coming in or it’s leaving, it should all look the same.
And, we’re teaching people to be in more of Flow state. I say to them, “If I went into another room monitoring your arousal I shouldn’t know whether you’re at the bottom of the movement going up, anywhere along that trajectory, because you’ve got to learn to control arousal and just give away no clues that the system is altering in any way. So, they’re learning how to control that and not have a bias between, “I like the Leg Press, but I don’t like this other exercise,” so you’ve got to look at those statements. “This exercise makes me feel—now, how can that exercise make you do that? That’s in your system. So, you say, “Okay, well let’s look at this. We’ve got this relatively homogenous environment, nothing much is changing, it’s safe, it’s supportive, and all you’re doing is going around and having a conversation with different agents in this environment which are the machines.” But, it’s exposing your biases and your prejudices, all this sort of things as you’re going around, whereas you need to remove all that so you can move from one exercise to the other seamlessly.
So, we get into this seamless state and it becomes very relevant to what happens when that basketballer jumped up to shoot that hoop that he’s done a thousand times before and all of a sudden his knee let go. You just don’t look at that and go, “Wow, his knee let go,” you’ve got to say, “From a systems point of view, a complexity point of view, how could that event occur? That anomaly, just out of nowhere, this anomaly appears.” And, that’s the wonderful world of the science that I work in, because we explain that, it’s what we call a Black Swan Event.
Now, it’s the result of what’s called a Singularity. So, when people are going back to the weight training where you’re doing these Bicep Curls it’s accepted in the literature that when a person finishes on the concentric phase of that movement and they go to transition into the eccentric stage of that movement, there’s a point where nothing is actually happening. Now, that’s a typical crude response, it’s like this complete switch off and then something else happens again. We teach people seamlessness, so they come down and they make that seamless transition, so there’s always something happening, and we can virtually see that through the EMGs when they’re doing this, and we don’t need that of course. The person that’s at that cognitive level, feels those transitions, so there’s no bias between if they’re coming up from the weight and it’s getting to that point where there’s a relaxation of that load, more or less, we don’t do the sense of relief stuff, “Whew,” you maintain that emotional integrity regardless of where you are on that point.
So, what that’s doing then is, when you’re out in your real world you are like the flock of birds flying in unison, you’re very impervious to perturbation because it doesn’t matter what happens out there you don’t overreact to it, you’ve built this composure into the system, and then as time goes on by increasing the loads and the demands you’re progressively learning to deal with higher levels of Stress and Demand from your environment but in a very composed orderly state. And, that’s a nice healthy robust system.

Jeff: When we were downstairs when we came in we happened to meet, I forget the lady’s name, but her daughter…

Matt: With Scoliosis.

Ken: With Scoliosis, yeah.

Jeff: Ken, can you talk us through what was happening?

Ken: Well, I actually wasn’t working with Rowena, Stew was, but it was typical. From a young age she was diagnosed with the Scoliosis, and she’s a brilliant kid, Stew told me that she actually rides like a unicycle at a circus or something. But, she had this acute Scoliosis and the Orthopaedics—she actually works at the Orthopaedic place now, but they had told her to wait until she was 21 or something and then they’d come and look at it and they’d put a rod in and straighten her back up and it fixed that. And, as you got to speak a little bit to Trish you are aware that she’s aware of Chaos Theory and Complexity, so she understood what that would be doing to her daughter. So, she read up all the science and she’d seen where we were coming from so she brought her daughter, Rowena, to us. So, there’s a Scoliosis, thought in the world, in all the medical wisdom, that that is incurable, there’s nothing you can do with that. And, we can, categorically, that within the first two days there were measurable results, on day four it was completely gone. Now, she’s going to go back to the Orthopaedic…

Jeff: In four days?

Ken: Four days, completely gone. So, where was the Scoliosis? Was it in the Spine? It’s like I said before, you’re not going to understand the Scoliosis, it’s like you’re not going to understand the flock of birds by studying a bird, you’re not going to understand the human being by studying a Neuron…

Matt: Or a bone.

Ken: That’s right, it’s a system of all interacting integrative system, and that’s the way we look at it. So, we remove all that and we start to stimulate—well, Rowena is doing it herself, stimulating the system as a whole. Once she opened her system up it went into that Chaotic state it released all that excess Energy and Noise from itself, and then it just normalises. It didn’t return, it just normalised, and that was it.

Matt: That the problem, like you were saying before, if you focus on—in our podcasts we’re always talking about the Immune System, the Liver, the Brain, you can’t separate any one of these systems, in fact, if you specialise in any one of those systems you start knowing more and more about less and less until you know absolutely everything about nothing, and then you’re just stuck.

Ken: That’s right.

Matt: A few of our listeners might be excited about what you just said then, that it wasn’t you that fixed the girl with the Scoliosis, Rowena, it was another guy Stew.

Ken: Stew, yeah.

Matt: So, it’s not that you’re just magic, this is a system that’s reproducible, it’s trainable…

Ken: Absolutely, yeah Triggered Training.

Matt: What are your qualifications yourself, Ken, have you been institutionalised?

Ken: No, fortunately I wasn’t and that was the whole point. When I was doing all this “magic”, so to speak, and we were in a private hospital and there was a period of time when things were going really good and we were getting all these fantastic results, but then all of a sudden I did start to get criticism with people saying, “Well, there’s no scientific validation for what you’re doing,” and Physios were starting to come in and criticise—not Jenny by the way…

Matt: That’s my sister who is a Physio in Mackay.

Ken: We’re very good friends. And, once again, because Matt and Jenny their dad was very inspirational to those guys in the way that they looked at things. But, there was a lot of criticism coming in, but it was more from people outside of the hospital not so much my peers who were in the hospital themselves. So, eventually, I said, “Well, they’re correct. I’ve got to try to find some scientific validation for all this,” and there was nothing in the literature that even came close to explaining what was taking place. Plasticity had been around for quite a few years, and of course there has to be plasticity otherwise you’d never be able to learn to do anything. So, I had to then start looking in all these places and it was very difficult to try to find anything that tied in. I just so happened to be reading Chaos Theory; the Making of a New Science, James Gleick’s famous book that did inspire a whole heap of people out there to really look at Chaos Theory. And, when I started to read it for the first time it just made no sense but as time went on I started to see words in there like the self-organisation and the bifurcations and things, and I said, “Well, that’s what I’m actually seeing in people, and I started to see that there was a scientific way of describing what was taking place from a dynamics point of view. Then, I looked at what Neuroscience was saying and that didn’t help out at all because we could see transitions that were occurring in people’s systems that were unexplainable using the typical Neuroscience models and what was understood about Disease and Disorder.
So, I had to work really hard, and if anything, if you’re going to have any theory about anything the first thing you’ve got to look at is get the Physics right. Now, with Physics we are talking about dynamics because from Physics there is Chemistry, then there’s Biology, then there’s Psychology, and in terms of Psychology what that actually means is if you’re studying one Neuron it’s Neuroscience, if you’re studying two Neurons it’s Psychology. So, Psychology is actually studying of changes of behaviour in dynamic systems over time. So, not what we refer to as Clinical Psychology, so they’re very huge departments in America and so forth.
However, working really hard along those lines I started to be able to join up all the dots and I could see that there was something in it for everybody; there were things in it that were going to be exciting to Physics, to the Physicist, there were things in there that were going to be exciting to the Neuroscientist, because we had proof, we had evidence that these transitions were occurring, you couldn’t just ignore it and say it wasn’t happening, because it was measurable, and certainly from the Psychology point of view, the system interacting with its environment.
So, by 1999 I did have a complete scientific description for it. Now, of course, I don’t have a PhD, I’ve never been to university, I’ve never even spoken to a Professor at that particular point in time, and I was certainly still getting a lot of criticism for it. Anyway, when I decided to get out of the hospital, to get back out into the real world, to test it out in the real world, then I wasn’t under the auspices of the hospital, so that was much more difficult to do. But, having that scientific description it took nearly 10 years before anybody took notice, I would write to the CSIRO, I would write to Griffith University saying, “Look, I believe I’ve come across something that’s very important,” but I never ever heard back from any of those people. So, just out of pure chance one day I was responding to a blog that was on a science site and it was a couple of scientists who wrote a paper that was about looking at the medical system as a complex adaptive system in its entirety. And, they said, “What stabilises the medical system is the fact that the attractor is that everybody wants to be healthy and well.”
As soon as I saw that I said, “Well, that’s not true, a lot of people actually don’t—they just want to get something to fix them so they can still keep doing the same things over and over,” and that’s what a lot of medicine is all about. It’s like taking Lipotil so you can—and, they advertise the fact, “You don’t have to change your lifestyle, just take Lipotil and it will do it for you.” So, I responded to that and I said, “Well, the paper is flawed from a Complex Systems point of view because Complex Adaptive Systems are stabilised through positive and negative feedback loops and feed forward, feedback, and so forth. So, if you’re going to look at the medical system then you’ve got to discover what are the positive feedback loops, what are the negative feedback loops, and then you’re going to discover what the stability process is all about.” Anyway, I just did that, and this Professor Gostello from a market university he got back to me and he just happened to be the editor of the Nonlinear Sciences Journal, and he said, “Well that’s really interesting, how did you come to that conclusion? Who are you? What do you do?” and I told him things about what I was doing, and I couldn’t believe it, for the first time in my life anyone had got back to me, and here it is, the actual editor of the Nonlinear Sciences Journal, so it was like from zero to a hundred overnight, and I was extremely excited about that.
So, I sent video footage of the dynamics and what was taking place and he said, “Oh my God, you’ve got to present this stuff, this is really good. Why don’t you put in an abstract for the Nonlinear Sciences Conference that was going to be in Palermo, this international Sciences conference, and that is the heart of it, that is all the Physics and all the Artificial Intelligence people, and all the systems Biologists, and the likes, and I was going, “My God, this is insane, I’ve never even written an abstract before.” But, anyway, all I had to do was tell it how it I saw it, so I wrote the abstract and it got accepted, and then on the 11th hour when it was all ready to go they said, “My God, this is—what’s your qualification? What institute do you represent?” and I said, “Well I don’t have one, I’m not qualified,” and it was like, “Oh my God, we can’t have you here,” and I said, “Oh well, it was fun while it lasted
But anyway, they said, “No, no, you’ve got really good stuff, we need to give you the chance to come and present this,” but they said, “however if you can do a mini type thesis, just make up something that’s not true but then argue for it as if it is true based on your understanding of Chaos and Complexity, then we’ll have a look at it.” So, I thought, “How can I do this in such a short timeframe? I’ve no idea what to do with that.” But, anyway, I was inspired by walking into my lounge room and looking at the chandelier that was hanging down and seeing this room and I started to look at that and I started imagining this dome—it’s a long story, but anyway, with this Sphere if you could perturb that dome.
So, in Chaos theory there’s Attractors, so if you imagine at the sink hole if you put a golf ball inside and you flick that all around well as soon as that stopped it would end up at the plug hole again, the Attractor. Now, human behaviour is very much about Attractors that, the ball keeps falling and the people keep eliciting these behaviours. So, I just made up this thing called a Detractor, which isn’t in the science, and I said, “What about if we had this bowl and we could get outside and this pendulum was swinging around we could perturb it and interfere with it, it would be detracting it from its normal Pathways. So, I used Mohammad Ali as the model for what I was talking about, how these great fighters could come into the ring with Mahomed Ali and no matter how good their skillset was he could interfere with that through playing all these games, so he was Detracting from their ability to perform. And, so, “How could that possibly happen if there is this skillset in there and this person is perturbing it, and all of a sudden they can’t do it?” It would be like if Roger Federer turned up at a social tennis club just to play for a charity fund raiser and all of a sudden somebody came up and flogged him, the chances are Roger Federer would struggle going back to play tennis, because that would have a severe impact on him.
The long of the story short was the fact that little article that ended up making it as the feature article in the Nonlinear Sciences newsletter, so that gave me this street cred before I even went to Palermo to speak, and when I did get there my stuff was a hit, I got invited to speak at Texas State University which is the All Sports Science Conference Base later on that year. But, they said, “You need more time,” and they gave me an hour which was a very special privilege to be an individual. Most universities around the world they’re just vying to be there in the first place, and they’re lucky to get that half hour, so there is a big filtering process, but I had something really interesting and I could show the self-organisation taking place in the human system and to be able to study that—like, they’ve never been able to see it and observe it and study it before; the theory is all there, but to have the actual practical experience, especially when you’re dealing with the human system.
So, as a result of that I got to speak at the Wiring the Brain Conference, the Neuroscience conference in Dublin, and the Physics conference in Turkey, so I’d done the rounds, and I think there has been about 11 international science conferences that I’ve spoken to now. But, Neuro traditional Sciences it’s actually accepted as its own body of knowledge, so it houses it, it auspices the Neurophysics, it’s the basis of everything we do at the institute. And, there are complete descriptions all the way through, so in that sense we have our own qualification process that’s very validated because Professor Sarah Nora Ross who co-wrote the hypothesis that’s in the Frontiers in Physiology Journal, which is a very highly respected journal to do with Physiology—she’s the CEO of the education company, so she’s very linked with a whole heap of key universities in America, she has connections into Beth Israel Hospital which is Harvard’s Hospital because she co-wrote papers with Mike Commons there.
So, there is a lot of credibility up there, and the fact is, we do have the online courses now available for students to come on and certainly learn the basis of it all and then they’ve got to do practical work.

Jeff: So, you don’t have to be here on the Gold Coast in Australia?

Ken: You don’t have to be here but you do have to come at some stage to do practical work. In the early stages of being a Neurotrician you can…

Jeff: Is that what you call your practitioners?

Ken: The Neurotrician is the person who does pretty much what I was doing in the private hospital, just teaching people all those control skills, you’re not utilising the Tremor, because to do that you then have to understand dynamics and you have to understand more of the science behind Chaos theory and know exactly what you’re looking at because you can cause harm if people get stuck in those periodic—and, you don’t know how to get them out of there. You’re going to strengthen those behaviours if anything.

Jeff: So, the sorts of people that are attracted to your course who are they? Are they personal trainers, are they occupational health and therapy, who are they?

Ken: Well, you met Trish, the mum down there, so she’s a school teacher and she said, “Now I’m really interested. I love teaching at the moment, but now I’m really interested in this.” So, we have people from all different walks, and most of them have gone to university and they’ve studied at some level, which is good because it shows that they can study; we normally have to hose them off from a whole heap of their understanding of things and build them back up again. But, at the end of the day we’re looking for people who have that genuine empathy for others and who wish to help other improve the quality and function of their life, that’s the quality, and I always say, “People don’t care what you know until they know that you care, and that’s the most important thing.”

Matt: So, no qualifications, you don’t have to have any particular qualifications already?

Ken: No. It just helps if you pick up concepts pretty easily, that you’re open minded, of course, because you’re taking in things and we’re describing things at scales that have never been described before, and that’s the history of the human race. And, you’re studying phenomena that have never been seen before and understood.

Matt: So, an open mind is essential. But, it’s harder to unlearn things than it is to learn things, I suppose, so sometimes having that open mind and the passion and the desire to help people is probably the best type of person you’re looking for?

Ken: And, they’ve got to go through the process themselves, anyway, to even think that they can do it, so they’ve got to get into it that way. But, it’s no different to the people coming in as patients, they’ve got to unlearn a whole heap of things in order to create new Pathways where their system is enhancing its own Complexity. So, that’s all that’s needed, but we’re trying to get the people who are already in there working with people as Personal Trainers, which you mentioned before, and you were saying something about that, Matt. Would you like to finish what you were talking about?

Matt: Well, you’ve mentioned a couple of times Pec Decks and Leg Curls and Leg Press, and when we walked in it just looks like a gym to the untrained eye, so a lot of our listeners out there are trainers or people interested in training and they have a gym or they’re Personal Trainers with their own studios. So, are there people that could, actually, start doing what you do?

Ken: They could do.

Matt: Do they have to be at a gym like this?

Ken: What we’re looking for is uniformity across it, which means that they could set up their own little place but they would have to have the same equipment that we’ve got down there.

Jeff: That equipment down there is beautiful looking equipment, and how does that differ, that equipment downstairs, from the norm?

Ken: Well, it has been modified. Leo Young from Synergy he’s been working with me for quite a few years and it was through Leo Young, actually, that Pete Jacobs and all that got to be there in the first place, but he’s the CEO of Synergy and we’re looking at continually modifying the equipment, and that’s going right back to when I used to have the equipment in the Pioneer Valley Hospital which was CalGym equipment then, which is now Synergy. I don’t know if you ever knew of Manfred, Matt? The German guy, he was from Mackay and he started to make that in his backyard in Mackay and has gone on to be one of the most popular gym equipment in the world.

Matt: Is that right?

Ken: Yeah.

Jeff: Is it just for rehabilitation or can people use it for…

Ken: No, its typical, that equipment you’re going to find it in Good Life Clubs and Jet’s Clubs, it’s all Synergy equipment, we’ve just upgraded it to enhance what we’re trying to accomplish with patients in terms of unilateral input into their system so that we can induce this Unilateral Input to get Bilateral Stability from the person’s system.

Jeff: I can imagine there’s going to be a lot of Personal Trainers and body builders looking for the potential side of things, in terms of athletics, and I know you’re working with that, they’re going to be fascinated to understand more about that, and we’re probably going to run out of time now but we can always get back together with you at another time.

Ken: For sure, Man, that’s what it needs now, we just need more people to be trained and educated as to how to do this because the funnel is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, but the outlet is not really changing too much.

Jeff: Ken, I saw you’ve got some great quotes up there on the board that typify, I guess, if you like, and it’s hard to put everything into a nice little box. I get the feeling, with you and your organisation it’s like you’re not out of the box, there is no box, but it says, “We know that there is untapped potential in every individual. We have the methodology to help everyone achieve their ideal state in unprecedented time frames, and Neurophysics puts you in the driver’s seat on the road to freedom and to taking control of your new direction.”

Ken: Very much so, Jeff. And, that’s the whole point, this is the person doing it, as you heard Trish say, “Hands off, we’re not touching—well, we do in summary because we’re teaching whether they should be lined up, but it’s all about the person taking over ownership, so they own it all the way. People will come to us and say, “You’ve saved my life,” “I didn’t save your life, I just showed you how to save your life,” and we insist they take that ownership over things. But, it is, it’s very much about that, and we can see untapped potential. When you get to see the testimonial from the UFC head coach, and he says, “Ken, I just couldn’t believe my body could do that in that timescale,” the speed that he was operating at. So, he knows now that he can have another state, when he goes back to doing his fighting and that, where he can be on that edge of Chaos and he can perform so much better, liberate so much Energy from his system, he’s so much more adaptable and soft assembled. Then, we have Mark Matthews, the big wave rider—poor old Mark he’s recently done a lot of damage to his shoulder—but he had Chronic Pain, Neuropathic Pain, anyway now he knows he can go out in those big waves, he can take a wipe out, he gets on his board, he opens up his system, he gets rid of all that Noise, and he’s back out there paddling. Before, it would take three or four days to get over the whiplash from one wipe out.

Matt: is that how you got onto Red Bull?

Ken: Yeah, through that pathway, yeah.

Jeff: Yeah, Ken’s working with Red Bull and the athletes.

Matt: Aren’t you with all sorts of athletes from everywhere?

Ken: Well, I was a keynote speaker at the Red Bull Athlete Summit, and one of the primary goals of that was to try to encourage all those elite athletes, their athletes, to support the Wings for Life Program, which is their sponsorship of a program for people with Spinal Cord Injuries, and that’s very close to home to the owners of Red Bull because his best mate is a fellow who’s got two sons who have got Spinal Cord Injuries from motorbike accidents. But, a lot of those people are coming there and garage films and entertainment, they’re very much involved in that whole process with those guys. So, more and more people are coming like that, and we’ve had the Bra Boys, for example…

Jeff: The guys from down in Sydney?

Ken: Yeah, so there’s Rennie Matua and Mark Matthews are all in that, and the fellow from the UFC was here last week, they’re all Bra Boys, so it was all part of that…

Jeff: Oh, that was on TV, I think I eventually watched the documentary. I think it was a TV show, wasn’t it?

Ken: Yeah. So, a lot of those guys—and, Rennie Matua he was a Canterbury centre and he came and he went…

Matt: With Anxiety Disorders is that—I was probably not allowed to say that, but…

Ken: Rennie was here, he just had groin issues, but nobody could fix him and he was looking at retiring and then he was going to go to Featherstone, so he came here and the same thing, in four days he was off sprinting and had a wonderful year last year in Featherstone, he said he was offered more money than he’s ever been offered in his life to play football again this year, and he knocked that back just to play with this other club because he preferred the atmosphere in that club.

Matt: The only reason why I mentioned the Anxiety bit is because he’s been pretty outspoken within the footy community about Depression and all that sort of stuff.

Ken: Definitely, yeah.

Matt: But, do you find as well that you get a lot of people might come to you for performance and physical stuff but then they just leave with a new mental state?

Ken: Absolutely, Matt. When we see a lot of these athletes, even though they self-report that they’re okay, but when you put them on the Leg Press and there’s no weights, it goes back to what I experienced myself all those years ago, and they’re starting to come down slowly with that, you’d swear someone was about to push them over the edge of a cliff. Now, they could go and put 200 kilos and throw it up and down, but with nothing—so, now we’re looking at, “Okay, so how is the system really going, really working?” because we’re looking at very discreet responses to the person’s environment and it’s typical of Anxiety, when people feel that Anxiety they tend to want to go fast to cover it up, or they’re aware there’s this Noise inside their system so they wear iPods, they’re trying to escape that internal dialogue that’s taking place, and there’s all that chatter in the background. And, that’s exactly what this brings out, it just exposes all that Noise in the system and there’s usually lots of Anxiety attached with that. So, once that’s gone then the person can have 150, 200 kilos in there bringing it down slowly, talking to me at the same time as if nothing is going on.

Jeff: Just from a purely personal curiosity, when you train, Ken, do you train with music, do you train alone?

Ken: No, definitely not. The whole thing with the iPod is, your system can only process so much information at once, and auditory and visual that’s what dominates the Association Region of the Brain anyway. So, Visual is about 60% and then you’ve got your Auditory coming in which is about 25% and your body doesn’t take too much notice of stuff, if you see how our bodies are represented in the Brain there are big hands, feet, genitals, all the high sensory areas are very highly represented. The body is just this scrawny little thing, and that’s what bring about a whole heap of issues with body image people because the Brain just creates…

Jeff: You tapped into my next question; that’s another one with regards to Fat Loss and the Fat Loss industry…

Matt: Why are you looking at me?

Jeff: But, a lot of that comes down to, and we touched on it before, there’s such an emotional state with Fat Loss, the feeling of not being worthy…

Ken: Oh yeah.

Jeff: Yoyo Dieting, all sorts of practises and techniques that people are using to deal with a centreline problem. Now, I appreciate if they can get the mental start right that might actually help with a better quality of life, regardless whether or not they lose the weight, but I would imagine they would probably start losing the weight if they worked on the emotional plane.

Ken: Well, the only mechanism that ever tells a Fat Cell to store Fat is a Stress Hormonal Chemical. So, nothing else can do it, they just don’t self-activate in some sinister way to make a person Fat. And, the storage of Fat is about Protection, that’s what it’s there for. They are super smart those Cells, and there’s no other Cell in our body that will manifest the results of our thoughts, feelings, wishes, ambitions, or our behaviour quicker than what Fat Cells will. So, you can take Fat Cells out of Obese people and put them into Petrie dishes and they will just go back to becoming a normal Cell. They are totally dependent on the information they receive as to what they do, so if the Stress Hormone docks on, whether it’s Hormonal coming through the bloodstream or it’s directly onto the Fat Cell itself, that sends that message into the Nucleus of the Cell, “Okay, there’s something wrong out there, we better increase Lipid concentration, decrease Mitochondrial activity, until it gets full, and then we’re looking at perhaps activating a Stem Cell to do the same thing.” So, that’s how it happens, there’s a dynamic that takes place there.
So, the underlying issues are the perception of the environment, how the person is perceiving the environment. So, if you’re going to blame Food for making a person Fat then you’ve got to discover what is it about this Food that is Stressing the person?

Jeff: Guilt associated with it?

Ken: There’s this pre-existing Stress situation and the Food just adds to the Fat Cell’s ability to then to store more Fat, so it’s just programmed that particular way. So, we’ve got to go back and alter the perception of the person, when it comes to women in particular, touching on what you said, Jeff, the Brain doesn’t know what a mirror is, it knows, at a higher level, that when I wink that’s me, because when I wink my eye it does too, but the Fusiform gyrus just recognises faces so your face is very highly representative in your Brain because it’s all about expressing emotion and the details, very discreet things that we read from another person’s face as to how they’re feeling, so there’s a high representation of that. What it sees about the body then is irrelevant, but if a woman isn’t standing in front of a mirror, and it is mainly women, and they’re self-reporting, “Oh God, look at this, that’s ugly, I’m this and I’m that,” the Brain’s taking in all this associated with that image, so that woman’s only walked past the shopping centre and seen an image of herself in the peripheral and the Brain’s like, “Oh, there’s that woman I don’t like,” and it sets up this defence again, this Anxiety about it again.
And, you see it all the time, we’re you’re asking the women to look at themselves in the mirror and stand up straight, and they just say, “I can’t,” and now that’s tragic. Who did that? Was that our society, the images of women being told as to what they should be looking like and how they should be dressing, and all that type of thing, and it is, once again, a severe Perceptional Error that has serious health consequences. So, they’ve got to be able to learn to look at themselves in the mirror and self-report, and say, “There’s a good person. I don’t get out of bed in the morning and try to cause other people harm?” and start to appreciate what they’ve got and look at their hands and feel their bodies and how incredible it all is. Because, there’s plenty of people that you’ve seen downstairs there who would be able to love to stand up and look at themselves in the mirror.

Matt: Yes.

Jeff: It’s like the old saying, “I cried because I didn’t have any shoes until I saw the man who had no feet.”

Ken: Yeah, that’s right. So, they’re very serious issues, and we’ve got things like Seizures or Epilepsies when they don’t know what’s causing the Seizure, and there are over 220,000 people, I believe, in Australia with Epilepsy, and the projection is 800,000 people by 2025.

Jeff: Wow.

Ken: Now, this is all in the developing countries where this is happening, they’re not having that in third and fourth world countries. So, it’s just in the developing countries, the biggest stronger faster will. “How I should be, what am I supposed to be? And, I’m trying to fit myself into this and achieve things all the time,” and this information overload, and as I said, when there is too much information in the system and it just can’t handle it, it’s just overloaded, it becomes over orderly, and that’s when we see these types of pathologies, whether it’s Seizures or it might be Muscular Dystrophy, or it could be anything that might manifest as Dis-Ease in the system.

Jeff: Matt talks about that a lot.

Ken: That’s right, that’s all it is, it’s a Dis-Ease of the system. The system is moving along some trajectory and all of a sudden some information changed, some perception changed and altered and that sent it off on another trajectory, and we just need to give it a bit of a nudge and get it back to where it should be.

Matt: Amazing, eh?

Jeff: Matt, did you have any more questions?

Matt: No, I don’t. My main thing I wanted to get across today is that this is happening, this is happening now, and other people can do it as well. I love hearing about all these things, and we do all this research but we’re always kind of lost thinking, “Oh gees, I’ve got to be at some health retreat in the Himalayas, it’s out of my reach, it’s out of my control, it’s totally not the sort of thing I could possibly do.” But, listening today, I’m sitting here thinking, “Me, personally I want to start doing this sort of stuff to work on physical, mental, spiritual levels to balance it back as a person,” but I’m also sitting there thinking, “What an amazing skillset it would be to have and how great life would be if that was your thing. You’re there helping people all day every day and how good you must feel from that.” So, I hope our listeners out there are a bit inspired to think that they could be doing exactly what Ken’s doing, they could be working with people like Ken and having that sensation, those constant Goosebumps all day, every day, of actually changing people’s lives.

Jeff: Well, the funny thing, Matt, and I won’t put ourselves at the same level as what Ken is doing, but this is what we believe as well too. We believe that people have the right to take control of their health and live the life that they want to live.

Ken: Yes, 100%.

Jeff: And, with ATP we want to create products that can help to achieve that, that can support that. Obviously what Ken is doing is just at such a high level because it’s at the foundation of the person, of the individual, and that’s where the information and the education is so, so critical, which is something why we created the ATP Project, because we believe that freedom comes from information and education.

Ken: It does. And, a lack of information is the dead opposite. But, it’s precisely what you’re saying, and its part of the very first thing that the students start to learn, is that when people come to us what are they saying? It doesn’t matter what they report, but underneath it all is, “I want control. I want to control my Fat Cells. I want to control my Pain, my Anxiety.”

Jeff: Yeah, that’s it.

Ken: I want to be in a situation where I can control things. Now, to do that you’ve got to have some system that allows people to start to see that they’re gaining control, and if they can’t see that under Micro conditions then there’s no way in the world it’s going to be there for them at Macro levels.

Matt: Mm.

Ken: So, whatever tools they use to put some control in, and controlling what goes in my mouth and what comes out of my mouth, and my thought processes, it’s all ways of teaching a person to get back in control of things. So, when we look at Emotion, Energy in Motion, that sets which sets in Motion, the origins of that word that’s where it came from; we think, we feel, we act, it’s all Energy in Motion. The idea is having control and authority over that Energy and Motion, so it’s not leaking out all over the place. If there’s an Emotional leak there’s a Physiological leak because those two things are never separate from one another, there’s no such thing as a Physical Experience the same as there’s no such thing as a direct Emotional Experience, they are all one and the same thing.

Jeff: I love the idea, and again it’s hinting around, and I’m probably going to have to spend some more time learning from you Ken, because I love the idea of the ability to be able to control, as you say, the aspects of the life that I want control, to live the life that I want to be able to live as far as it depends upon me. And, the higher level understanding of how the body is and the fact that we accept so many things as being normal when they’re not normal. We accept so many things as being the way they are and that they can’t be changed, and this is absolutely destroying that theory. And, that’s what I want ATP to stand for, and everything that we do, as well, Matt.
So look, I really appreciate your time. Matt, do you have any more questions? Is there anything else you want to ask before I wrap this up?

Matt: No, I was just too busy listening.

Jeff: I know we’re going to have a lot of questions.

Matt: He’ll come back. I’m going to bug Ken some more.

Ken: Please do.

Jeff: We’d love you to come back. I’m sure that some of our listeners have some questions.

Matt: We’ll get links to however these people can learn to do what you do, we’ll put all that on our webpage and all over our Facebook pages, and we’ll get that out to everyone, so anyone that’s interested in learning more can follow that. And, that’s the best way to do it.

Ken: That’s wonderful.

Matt: So, we’re at the Neurophysics Institute today at Robina.

Jeff: So Ken, the website, telephone number, Facebook page, give them everything what you’ve got.

Ken: Alright, we will. Well, I don’t actually do it, I have all these other people doing all those jobs for me. I just focus on what I do best.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s much the same at Matt and I.

Matt: I’m just the eye candy and he does the other business decisions.

Ken: We do have the first Franchise, if you want to call it that, but I don’t like that word but we had to have some legal structure to be able to do this, and that’s opened up in New Zealand a couple of months ago and they are going really well. So, it shows that you don’t have to be Ken or Nicky Ware to do this, other people can be taught how to do it, and they’re already dealing with people with Strokes and people with MS. And, Steve Divine, who is a famous All Blacks player over there who has suffered with concussion for a long time. Now, all these experts, and they’ve got a good budget, they’ve been trying to help him with his concussion, but in four days all those symptoms were gone. Now, he’s done a testimony and it’s on the Neurophysics website, but that’s how easily it can penetrate and help a person’s system get into the place where it needs to be. It’s never the same as it was before; better.

Jeff: Absolutely.

Matt: And, otherwise all our listeners here can book in and come and see you as well. They can come to this facility to train?

Ken: Absolutely.

Jeff: You’re on the Gold Coast in Queensland, Australia.

Matt: They’ll fly.

Ken: Yeah, we’ve got people coming in from all over the world all the time to come in for therapy. But, at this point in time, as I said, the funnel is quite big out there but the outlet is pretty small so even for somebody to get to see me directly now there’s a couple of months waiting, and I don’t like that because of the fact that we know people with these very serious disorders like Motor Neurons, in those two months that they have to wait to see me so much more deterioration can take place. You know, I would just love to be able to say if somebody rings up and, “Okay, I can just refer you straight to this place.” And, there is a centre opening up in Sydney soon, there’s going to be one in Western Australia, there’s going to be another one in Brisbane, so they are starting to get out there, and more and more trained people, which is great.

Matt: Good.

Ken: But, we just need many, many more because as it becomes more popular and people start to see everything on the website about what we’re accomplishing, of course, it creates that demand, but we can’t match that demand. So, we definitely need more people. And, I really appreciate this today, guys, I know that your podcast is very popular, so it is a privilege to be here to be able to speak to all the listeners.

Jeff: Oh, we feel very privileged for your time and to be able to interview you because it’s a great thing that you’re doing.

Matt: No, it’s awesome.

Jeff: Well, thanks everyone for listening. If you’ve got any questions for Ken shoot them along to us and if we’re fortunate enough that we can steal some more of his time in the next few weeks or months we might come back and do a follow up interview.

Ken: That would be wonderful.

Jeff: And, thanks again for your time, Ken, and thanks Matt, and we’ll see you next week.

Matt: Thank you, Jeff.

Ken: Yeah, all the very best to everybody.

Jeff: If you’d like to contact Ken and his team at the Neurophysics Function and Movement Centre you can call them on International 617-5593 0688, or go to their website