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Episode 3 – Testosterone

 

Transcript:

Jeff:

Welcome to the ATP Project, I’m your host Jeff Doidge with me as always is my co-host Matt Lake; Matt, good to have you here, mate.

Matt:

Yes, it’s great to be here; it’s always fun.

Jeff:

Matt today, let’s jump straight into it, testosterone. We’ve been talking about issues in the last episode. Testosterone Matt, what is it?

Matt:

Testosterone is a hormone; predominantly we think of testosterone in regards to men only but women and men both have testosterone – really important, really important hormone.

Jeff:

So in terms Matt of – most people think, testosterone, men only, build muscle – if women have testosterone they turn into some giant Hulk like creature and that it’s actually not good for women and it’s great for men and the more men got the better and women shouldn’t have any at all.

Matt:

No, the women are stuffed then because they start off with testosterone.

Jeff:

Yes, right.

Matt:

Testosterone is what they use to make estrogen, so basically both men and women have testosterone –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And in both men and women testosterone is important for building muscle, burning fat, preserving muscle mass – or not only preserving muscle mass but building muscle mass and building bone. It’s also a very good anti-inflammatory, really good for balancing the immune system; it’s an extremely important hormone.

Jeff:

Let’s break it down as terms of the good and the bad here in dealing with testosterone. Let’s try it right of the bat; men. What is good for men about testosterone, what does testosterone help with and what are some of the negatives associated with either too little or too much testosterone in men?

Matt:

Yes, in both men and women though – it’s assigned. Testosterone builds muscle, builds bone, burns fat, takes away pain, increases motivation drive, increases libido, gives you that fire, you know? and that is in both men and women; and, in both men and women if you don’t have enough testosterone then you get all the opposite. You hold fat, you can’t build muscle, you’re catabolic, you’re breaking down your resources; you get weak boned – You also get the fatigue, you get aches and pains, you get poor recovery, you can get a lot more inflammation, and immune problems; so both men and women need a good healthy level of testosterone. Where things get a bit funny is when men and women when they get too much testosterone –

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

That’s when you can really start to see some strange things start happening.

Jeff:

And what happens with too much testosterone – and again, men and women; let’s start with men.

Matt:

Basically with testosterone – the testosterone in men is made predominantly by the testicles and then the adrenal gland.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

The testosterone in men as testosterone it’s really cool, it does all those things we just mentioned. Our body is always trying to maintain balance and homeostasis, once the testosterone is either being released or injected or consumed or whatever, once that testosterone level raise the body because we’re constantly trying to adapt, it’s trying to balance out these things because ratios of hormones are more important than the actual amounts; so I’m saying, if you have too much testosterone and not enough estrogen, not enough of the androgen, Dihydrotestosterone, your body will actually convert that testosterone into something else.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

So it’s rarely that the people get really high testosterone for long before the body wants to switch it over. That’s what makes it hard as well to try to naturally build your testosterone because every time you build your testosterone to a higher level outside of normal physiology, the body wants to convert it to something else.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

The testosterone can be converted to estrogen in both men and women –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Or it can be converted to a thing called Dihydrotestosterone.

Jeff:

What is Dihydrotestosterone?

Matt:

Dihydrotestosterone is actually a more active or more aggressive form of testosterone; so, a lot of steroids and that sort of stuff would have a lot of Dihydrotestosterone effects because it also helps to create that exaggerated testosterone, that dry hardness in the muscles. But the negative side effects of Dihydrotestosterone is acne, male pattern baldness which I can explain more of that in a sec. – because it links into both men and women; so too much of Dihydrotestosterone causes acne, it causes baldness; it causes that big hard round dark goop – the deep fat behind the muscle layer.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Yes, the guys that can have the six-pack but still have that deep fat?

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

That can be associated to Dihydrotestosterone.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Women get the hirsutism, the whiskers and the thicker, darker hair on the arms –

Jeff:

The bearded lady of the circus.

Matt:

Yes that sort of stuff.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Yes, Dihydrotestosterone; women get a pot belly from the Dihydrotestosterone. They also – and then they get a lot of acne problems and that sort of things as well. The other thing if you got Dihydrotestosterone because that’s the one that hits you in the head, makes you irrational, angry, makes you really irritable.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

You know we’re talking about roid rage and things like that? Well that’s the effect of Dihydrotestosterone on the brain.

Jeff:

So obviously Dihydrotestosterone either from steroids or just the natural production can – it can be produced in the body.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

So what things Matt – obviously Dihydrotestosterone – we probably need some but it’s only over production that causes some of these problems.

Matt:

Yes, that’s a big link into prostate problems and everything as well so that Dihydrotestosterone causes a lot of the prostate cancers and prostate swelling.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Yes, so if you got a buildup of Dihydrotestosterone – it’s the same with a lot of these things, we try to stop the production while we try to cleared out the load. To stop the production there’s a little enzyme – 5 alpha-reductase. We wanna block that enzyme and that enzyme you block it with high doses of zinc, selenium, lycopene which is the red bits from tomatoes and watermelon and everything. You’ll also block it with herbs – the best herbs for it are Tongkat Ali, Saw palmetto, Epilobium, pumpkin seeds, Brazil nuts –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

That sort of things. You start consuming those that would block the conversion. Actually tomato paste – you eat a table spoon of tomato paste, you gonna get more lycopene than most supplements.
Three or four Brazil nuts will give you a therapeutic dose of zinc and selenium; so those are the foods that could be added into your diet quite easily –
And help to block the conversion. If you wanna quickly strip out Dihydrotestosterone and block its effects in the meantime; that’s when you can use things like DIM.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

So –

Jeff:

So what is DIM?

Matt:

Dim – Diindolymethane is a common product. They all sell it as an estrogen detox; so it’s marketed as a product to strip out estrogen.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Really, low doses of DIM – when you take DIM early, a low dose of DIM it would interact with your liver and change the way your body detoxifies estrogen and help to clear it away.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

But people don’t like it so –

Jeff:

More is better –

Matt:

People are just smashing mega doses of Dimm.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

DIM has two effects; you can get a systemic effect from DIM as well by taking a higher dose and when I’m talking a higher dose I’m really talking about 400 milligrams and above.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

DIM will have a systemic effect were it starts to block testosterone activity; so, ratios between hormones are more important than the actual amounts. But for the people out there taking high doses of DIM to strip out estrogen be aware that at the same rate you’re blocking out your testosterone which is why you’re probably don’t see as significant effects or changes to your body shape because at the same rate you’re lowering the estrogen that’s holding fat and fluids, you’re lowering your testosterone effects and androgen effects by blocking out through the DIM on a systemic cellular level.

Jeff:

It’s funny Matt; we’ve been talking a lot about supplementation obviously in relation to hormones and path wise. DIM specially, I think probably over the last few years – at least the last two or three years have become incredible popular –

Matt:

Yes.

Matt:

Well, originally Dimm was marketed for prostate cancer and testicular cancer.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

As an anti-testosterone, an anti-androgen.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

So it has the anti-androgen effects; but, it also has this – and then later on the worked out this ability to change a toxic form of estrogen to a weaker form of estrogen by interacting with the liver enzymes.
Originally it was used as an anti-testosterone then it got marketed as anti-estrogen and people forgot about the fact that it blocks testosterone. What ends up happening is if you got a hormonal profile of “X” amount of estrogen and “Y” amount of testosterone you just –

Jeff:

They both dropped –

Matt:

They both dropped at the same rate –

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

So your body shape doesn’t change. To manipulate your body shape you wanna change hormonal ratios; the amount of time is as important as the ratios.

Jeff:

Okay, So in terms of – actually, while we’re talking about manipulating or changing testosterone pathway, we mentioned DIM there too. I know you’re pretty – a lot of guys out there to increase testosterone production they’re using a lot of supplements and pills, D-Aspartic Acid, were do you see that fitting in this matter?

Matt:

D-Aspartic Acid is strange. D-Aspartic Acid is a nerve trigger, excitatory nerve stimulant sort of thing, similar things like MSG and other Aspartames and things like that – the way they activate nerves to do things; so, depending on what tissue is exposed to D-Aspartic Acid or DAA is what effect it has.

Jeff:

Okay.

Matt:

Basically, you look at DAA as an on switch; when they did the studies showing that if you bathe testicles in D-Aspartic Acid it made more testosterone.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

That’s cool.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

They took that paragraph out and created a whole industry. The rest of the studies actually show that if I get the same D-Aspartic Acid and I activate fat cells with it, it triggers Aromatase to make estrogen. If I gave D-Aspartic Acid to ovaries in women, it would make estrogen.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

D-Aspartic Acid on your gut will make digestive enzymes; it’s a bizarre thing but basically you’re kind of having one of those shot gun approach – throwing the thing in there, into your body and hoping it all goes to your testicles and only make testosterone but that’s not gonna happen. In the real world, you can’t specifically say to that ingredient I only want you to work this function of the body and not do the other functions of the body; so at the same rate D-Aspartic Acid might be stimulating your nuts to pump out testosterone; but, at the same time it’s stimulating your fat cells to convert that testosterone to estrogen. Your ratios of fat cells compared to nuts cells might determine your rates of how much you’re gonna make and which one is capable of making more.

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

I don’t know if I’m just fat or I’ve just got small nuts but I’m thinking I might get a hell lot more of estrogen and I’m too scared to use D-Aspartic Acid.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

For me it’s a nerve wrecking thing.

Jeff:

It’s interesting. It’s just another one of those sorts of marketing ploys that companies will take some data that’s accurate but they will take it effectively out of context or they will omit the other information that’s critical to make an –

Matt:

Right.

Jeff:

Informed decision.

Matt:

And there are a lot of herbs, you see a lot of herbal formulas out there – I do a lot of work with women – I’m not a prep coach or PT so I don’t talk about macros or anything like that, but I go through someone’s protocol and – just to analyze it and see if there’s anything that’s not quite right.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And what I see all the time is that these women come to me prepping for a competition and they are on a test booster but that test booster is not a test booster in a woman. You basically – women have got ovaries and blokes have got nuts.

Jeff:

Yes, thanks for pointing that out.

Matt:

Yes, that’s one of the main featured differences and what you’ll find is, follicle stimulating hormone goes to your testicles and tells your testicles to make sperm because that’s what testicles make.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

And at the same time as it makes testosterone. Follicle stimulating hormone in a woman would go to the ovaries and tell them to make an egg because that’s what they make.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

To make the egg, the follicle stimulating hormone is telling their ovaries to convert the testosterone that’s made there into estrogen and an egg.

Jeff:

Wow.

Matt:

So what ends up happening is you give the herb that might make sperm in a bloke, it makes estrogen and the eggs in women.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Those sorts of herbs we’re talking about are Tribulus, Epimedium – like the Wild Yam and Peony.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Those are the things you see in the products.

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

Peony, those are the things – I’m seen a lot of these things that have been used for a long time in natural medicine to treat hot flashes and menopausal symptoms in women. They don’t make testosterone in women they make estrogen.

Jeff:

All right.

Matt:

All these women are taking a test booster that’s a herbal test booster with things like D-Aspartic Acid mixed in with Tribulus and all sort of stuff, they’re getting estrogenic; but the bloke who sold it to them in the shop; when he uses it, he turns into a cave man, when she uses it she turns into cavemen target.

Jeff:

Yes, right.

Matt:

Yes, so it’s just different with women – to build up testosterone in women we’re more interested in blocking the conversion of testosterone through to these other things and increasing testosterone levels that way and freeing up that testosterone so they get more activity.

Jeff:

Let’s look at that Matt then – that for men and for women as well too, if we understand that testosterone is both beneficial for men and women – In the right ratios when they’re gonna spill into DHT or spill over into estrogen –

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

What should men and women be looking to do to improve their levels of testosterone?

Matt:

Training –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And things like that, mate – there’s a lot of good stuff out there. Good sleep, to train hard, that sort of thing. The other thing is then to actually change your body’s priorities.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Get your adrenal – for women in particular –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Getting their adrenal gland away from stress and survival for themselves, family and friends –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And into selfish anabolic growth and repair is bloody hard.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

There’s this natural thing with women where their adrenal gland is more focused on survival but not just for them but for everyone else.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

As a man I’ve never had a consult with a woman that has not stopped half way through and asked about her father and her partner and her sons and her daughters and everything – it’s just a natural thing; a nurturing, beautiful thing.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

So basically with women – a lot of it is controlling the adrenal gland and helping them control their stress and increasing their anabolic hormones which include things like DHEA which then go through to make progesterone and testosterone.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And then freeing up their testosterone. There’s only one herb really that I could find studied in women with ovaries; that’s a sneaky thing they do with studies is that they take the ovaries out. Yes, they are not done on women, they are on rats usually but they kill them after anyway; so, basically what happens is that – What was I talking about?

Jeff:

Testosterone for women.

Matt:

Yes that’s right.

Jeff:

And that there’s just one herb –

Matt:

Tongkat Ali is a good herb that’s been studied in women and shown women – an ability to increase testosterone activity in women with ovaries. In most of the studies what they do is they’ll go and try to create a study to show they can increase testosterone production in women and what they will do is get rats with their ovaries removed –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And then they will give them these things and then they’ll just tweak their adrenal glands but with the endocrine gland gone it doesn’t really relate as well to us.

Jeff:

You said before obviously testosterone for men and women – the adrenal glands are really, really important.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

So if the men as well too – obviously stressed – and I know in you clinic Matt, you’ve work with a lot of people on fertility, trying to get pregnant both men and women –

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

And stress is one of the major hand breaks.

Matt:

Well, your body is split between short term survival, long term maintenance and repair. The long term maintenance and repair includes reproduction.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

I mean seriously, short term survival – if your body is getting constant treatment saying we don’t know if we’re going to last the hour or the day it’s definitely not giving you the resources you need to reproduce –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

It’s definitely not giving you the resources you need for anabolic muscle hypertrophy; it’s more likely to be saying break down whatever resources you got and get it from muscle, bone, anything, put it in the bloodstream so we can punch and run –

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

As far as reproduction goes you can forget the whole thing. Your adrenal gland then is a major part of that process. Your adrenal gland is constantly trying to decide, am I making cortisol to handle life threatening stress – cortisol is catabolic and break everything down –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Or am I trying to make everything else that will do muscle regeneration, bone health, vitality, sleep –

Jeff:

I love this topic because been in the industry for 12 years and seen the way that marketing – the highest that people are chasing as well too; so obviously guys and girls in the gym increase muscle mass, decrease body fat – people are tired, they’re lethargic mate, they’re not probably getting enough sleep – their quality sleep is not good. That’s gonna impact on testosterone, make them irritable.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

So then they’ll reach for the coffee or the high stimulant pre-workout that helps them through –

Matt:

Yeah.

Jeff:

What’s your take on that and in terms of its effect on the body production of testosterone using or relying on high stimulants?

Matt:

Basically, if you activate your stress nervous system –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

You’re going to tell your body that testosterone isn’t as important.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

So your body would bind up that testosterone and make it less free and active; so, the binding of testosterone basically means there’s this stuff – Sex hormone binding globulin – your body can use that to hold on to the testosterone, deactivate it, stop it from being active as part of a way of telling your body is not important right now and stress will make you have more bound testosterone.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

The other thing is the adrenal gland uses cholesterol and other bits and pieces to make these hormones. They’re all made of the same thing that this gland is constantly trying to decide which resources – where am I gonna send my resources? Am I gonna use this cholesterol and everything to make cortisol which is possibly gonna keep me alive today or am I going to use this cholesterol and other resources to make other hormones like DHEA and then progesterone, testosterone and everything else?

Jeff:

What does cortisol actually do in the body?

Matt:

Cortisol is amazing, we need it.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

That’s how it is with all these hormones; too much of a bad thing is bad for you but not enough of it you die.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

So basically, cortisol is an anti-inflammatory.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Cortisol – you know when people say count to ten before you punch someone and run or do they say that to me?

Jeff:

Just to you.

Matt:

Just to me. With cortisol they – it basically takes like ten seconds after you take a stress trigger for cortisol to be released and it’s going out there. It’s actually an anti-stress hormone. We talk about it as a stress hormone because it’s always there when we’re stressed but its job is to go back and tell our nervous system we already had a stress, let it go. It’s also anti-inflammatory; it suppresses our immune system –

Jeff:

It suppresses our immune system?

Matt:

Yes, so when you got a cold or the flu or allergies – that’s actually your immune system that makes you feel lousy not the bug. Cortisol goes in and calms the immune system down and says stop making everything so sore and achy and snotty.

Jeff:

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a teacher and he says it’s amazing that he will go all the way through the year –

Jeff:

Been stressed out, I’ve got exams, their marking and all the rest of it, first week into the holiday and half of them get sick.

Matt:

Of course, it’s the immune system that makes you feel lousy not the bug.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

If you got high cortisol suppressing your immune system so ifyou’re stressed – high cortisol, your immune system is suppressed; you carry the bugs around with you –

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Until which time as you get a chance to stop –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Your cortisol levels drop, your immune system picks up and it finds this bugs and it goes all right, let’s smack them.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Then you feel lousy.

Jeff:

Funny.

Matt:

The people that worry me the most in the clinic are the ones that come and say I never get sick.

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

Because –

Jeff:

They never stopped.

Matt:

You see they think they’re immune. You’re thinking you’re probably sick – you just don’t know; it’s actually your immune system that makes you feel lousy. People that get – they say, “I’m constantly catching things but they don’t last long.” People that gets exposed to a bug and then get an immune reaction instantly and then it’s all over, they think they’re getting sick all the time but they are actually the ones that don’t get cancer’s and stuff, they are the ones that have good immune surveillance nothing gets past your membranes. You know that because you caught it here –

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

In your face – I was pointing at my face when I said you caught it here.

Jeff:

I can see that; yes, yes.

Matt:

But yes –

Jeff:

Cortisol..?

Matt:

We need cortisol.

Jeff:

But not too much.

Matt:

Yes not too much.

Jeff:

And this is why stimulants can obviously impact – these cortisones –

Matt:

Exactly, so normally what happens, you get a big surge of cortisol in the morning that wakes you up all shight and briney ready to go –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And then your cortisol is supposed to drop off all day and then at night you’re supposed to get a big trough of cortisol – no cortisol at all, puts you into a deep sleep and that’s when you do all your regeneration and repair.

Jeff:

And that’s where the growth hormone and testosterone are produced.

Matt:

Because while testosterone is dominating throughout the day is basically saying just get through today, we can do your recovery later.

Jeff:

Okay, so cortisol is not bad it’s just that we don’t want too much of it and we want it at the right time.

Matt:

During a survival response, your body will release cortisol to help you make fuel to get you through that survival response.

Jeff:

Got it.

Matt:

What it does with that fuel, or how it helps make fuel in your bloodstream as it causes insulin resistance; it stops you from putting the sugar into your muscles and keeps the sugar in your bloodstream.

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

It then breaks down your glycogen reserves in your muscles and liver to put more sugar into your bloodstream just so you can fuel your survival – fuel your escape.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

If you’re taking products that create – release a heap of cortisol, then when you go to the gym you’re going to be breaking down all of your resources except one thing that is really cool, if you go through chronic stress is that if you preserve heap of fat around your organs and brain and your leg happens to get bitten off, you can feed on the fat around your organs for a period of time. Another stupid thing cortisol does is it will break down all your muscles to fuel your training but it will hold fat and fluid around your internal organs in case of injury.

Jeff:

Realistically Matt, the people who are trying to maximize their hormonal profile, build testosterone – help build more muscle tissue, helps with nitrogen retention maybe we could talk about the other form of testosterone that actually helps build muscle tissue, mate; then watch the stimulants and make sure you’re getting adequate rest.

Matt:

Yes, yes.

Jeff:

The sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems – that’s definitely a separate podcast right?

Matt:

Yes, yes we will talk about that –

Jeff:

That’s huge.

Matt:

yes, we’ll talk about that, I’ll explain all of that, and that’s fun too.

Jeff:

Matt, one of the other things I just wanna get back too is what happens with the production of too much testosterone in the body?

Matt:

Basically if you get too much testosterone, the body will convert it to something else. In the ovaries, in women and in the prostate gland in men, in the sweat glands and in hair follicles and in fat cells the body can convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone.

Jeff:

Right, so DHT –

Matt:

DHT yes. That causes cystic ovaries – PCOS in women –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

It causes swelling in the prostate or prostate cancer, in men

Jeff:

I think many men can relate to that – we all think about the finger up the jacksie and my father had to have his prostate removed….not his jacksie.

Matt:

Yes that would be awkward – in skin cells – what happens is that dihydrotestosterone in skin and in hair follicles I should say, it starts making a grease; and that grease is what opens up the pores –

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

As the pores open the bugs can get in – that causes acne but it also causes hair loss.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Because what happens is the immune system goes to attack this weird hair follicles full of bugs and actually eats them; they are gone and your hair falls out.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

That’s how blokes get male pattern baldness from too much test – in other places like for example in women, you get hirsutism – they get too much dihydrotestosterone in the hair follicle and it actually changes the hair structure, makes it thicker and darker; so with dihydrotestosterone women, the fair hair on their arm might suddenly starts getting darker and thicker, they could get the side burns or the whiskers.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And often it’s accompanied with thinning of the hair similar to male pattern baldness; so, they get thinner on the top and grow hair elsewhere.

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

Yes and other weird – just weird body locations and that sort of stuff. The same process causes a pot belly, the holding of fat and fluid deep in the gut.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

They’re the signs of dihydrotestosterone – if your testosterone gets too high in some people the fat cells can convert their testosterone through to estrogen. That can also happen in ovaries in women

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

If their testosterone converts to estrogen it can cause estrogen dominance. In the menstrual side of the women that can cause anything from endometriosis through to estrogen issues – long, bad periods. In blokes, that estrogen is becoming a massive target now for swelling prostate as well. They are suddenly realizing massive people with prostate problems that are getting a conversion of testosterone to estrogen. That causes prostate problems as well. And then the funny thing is the whole prostate treatment is smashing testosterone – it is all about get rid of your testosterone. And I’m always confused because you’re sitting there – why don’t teenagers get prostate problems? Why only old blokes get prostate problems rather than teenagers since testosterone causes it?

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

It’s not; it is the conversion of testosterone to these other things which they don’t measure because they are inside your cells.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

They’re not in your bloodstream; they’re harder to measure.

Jeff:

It appears to me Matt – that what we wanna do is stop the testosterone from converting to either DHT or estrogen and keep it in the correct testosterone pathway?

Matt:

Yes keep it there.

Jeff:

Keep it from the testosterone pathway.

Matt:

Yes because ratios are more important than the amounts.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

And the other thing you wanna do is kind of not be detoxifying it out and or stopping it from working with high doses of DIM as well.

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

You block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen by using transdermal chrysin –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Because it doesn’t work orally; so, you use transdermal chrysin –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Otherwise you do – I think that orally the best one is Tongkat Ali –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

It’s the best one I’ve found; you know there’s few others but Tongkat Ali worked really well.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Because it fits the whole picture.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

The biggest problem is always fat.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

The more fat cells you got the more conversion of testosterone to estrogen you gonna have and in those cases it causes the man boobs, the love handles.

Jeff:

I can almost see how that becomes so much a vicious circle; so, lose weight, get plenty of zinc into your diet as well too.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

Sleep.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

Get plenty of rest.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

Lots of R and R.

Matt:

And train.

Jeff:

And train

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

And then once you got there –

Matt:

And you listen to that estrogen podcast and you know what not to eat –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And that sort of stuff.

Jeff:

And then, once you got that down pat, then you can start looking at maybe some supplementation to help to increase the production of testosterone –

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

And to stop the conversion of that testosterone to DHT and to estrogen.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

Matt, one thing I do wanna – you mentioned it quickly and I wanted to break it down a little bit more, the importance of free testosterone.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

With the testosterone –

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

Is it just testosterone and free test? are they the only two forms of testosterone that are in the body?

Matt:

Basically the big point is that we got testosterone that can be bound up and it doesn’t bloody work –

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Or your testosterone gets converted through to something else.

Jeff:

So how do we – what does free testosterone do in the body?

Matt:

Free test – all the beneficial effects of testosterone which is the muscle growth, the anti-inflammatory, the motivation, the drive, the get up and go.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

The bound testosterone is basically just working as a carrier vehicle, preserving the testosterone to be released at a time when you’re actually about to do some muscle hypertrophy regeneration repair.

Jeff:

I’ve been doing my own research which is nothing compared with what you are doing and some of the stuff that I’ve found is that more free testosterone that you got and if you can increase free testosterone then it can have a positive effect on building muscle tissue.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

What things can you do to help free up bound testosterone?

Matt:

All the same things we already mentioned.

Jeff:

All right.

Matt:

Basically which is don’t stress –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Sleep well. It’s all about balancing out your stress levels with your recovery and that sort of stuff.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Is the main one – I think I talked about Tongkat Ali.

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

Some of the best Nettles, Fenugreek – the Nettles, Fenugreek, Tongkat Ali they all free up the testosterone.

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

We got them all in the Alpha Mars but, they are the best ones I ever found to be able to free up that bound testosterone. Once that bound up testosterone is free it’s available to bind into receptors and actually have the testosterone effect we want them to have.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

That’s the thing, in my clinic I used to see all the time guys coming in using massive doses of gear, more than the pros and they just come in and they’re just getting the results that my mates got and, the funny thing is as they’re coming in and it is just unlucky – how buggers some guys go buy and put in massive doses of testosterone and instead of building muscle and feeling invincible, it converts to estrogen, they get man boobs and some of it converts to Dihydro and their hair falls out. I had a friend who took two bottles without getting any of the benefits that all their mates had got.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

A big problem with that is, if you got too much fat.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Too much to a point that if you wanna use high doses of testosterone not naturally but injecting and that sort of thing, you can’t do it if you’re too fat because the more fat cells you’ve got you’re gonna convert it all through to estrogen.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Naturally, when you do a testosterone boosting campaign – if you’re just using things like the D-Aspartic Acid – so the things that just go straight out and tell your nuts to release testosterone without controlling the pathways, you’re just as susceptible to have all the same problems. To do it properly, you wanna have a strategy where you tell the body to make the testosterone and you also want to control the conversion pathways. It’s so easy to get a testosterone surge. Look at a picture of a boob if you do that sort of thing; look at the boobs and you’ll get a surge of testosterone.

Jeff:

Yes. What about women?

Matt:

Yes I don’t wanna judge – you don’t know; but anyway, just the excitement.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Whatever excites them –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

But the hard bit is keeping the testosterone in a form that your body can use rather than it going “Oh we had a big surge of testosterone; it’s out of ratio to the other hormones let’s just disperse it across the board.”

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

And then your results end up the same.

Jeff:

Something else I wanted to ask you Matt, was obviously, men and women are different, also age, obviously has an impact on hormones as well too.

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

With regards to men, when does testosterone really starts kicking off, and when does it peak and what happens in men? Obviously around your mid-thirties to mid-forties somewhere around that period, men probably testosterone is peaking – it starts to decline; I mean obviously –

Matt:

Yes, it’s earlier than that – I think it’s around their twenties or something like that when you hit your peak and then it starts to drop off. Everyone is different. There are all these statistical things and they keep changing the rules.

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

All right, I’m not going to come out and say that your peak levels are this because everyone is different.

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

Let’s do an average. The big point is mid-thirties onwards –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

You’re looking at women enter perimenopause period.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

What happens with perimenopause?

Jeff:

Perimenopause?

Matt:

Perimenopause means somewhere around menopause.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

You can be coming in and out of it or at any moment you could start going into it. What happens in women around the perimenopause period is that their androgens which is progesterone, testosterone and everything –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

They drop off first.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

And the estrogen can often stay high and then they will start getting body shape changes.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

It all depends on the hormones; everyone is a little bit different.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

It’s a weird one. We try to do these general rules and we try to say this is that but when we’re talking to people – I know we’re doing a podcast to the population but individuals are listening.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And individuals will go that is not me; and, I hate statistical sort of stuff and averages because everyone is so totally different. We just gonna go through, look at your symptoms, picture your profile, look at yourself, don’t focus purely on blood tests because a blood test is a snap shot of that particular time and space; the you right then. You can’t accurately measure hormones; they are constantly doing pulses, so I got more from symptom picture – understanding what your body does in response to hormones and how manipulation hormones will change you.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

I use a blood test to see if anything really weird is going on; but, you can’t rely purely on blood tests to actually assess hormonal fluctuation. I’m just saying, most of the estrogen and dihydrotestosterone that’s screwing around with this is inside cells it’s not in transit in your blood stream.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

People obsess over blood tests, people obsess over numbers and things like that but you got to understand your body, your symptom picture and things like that.

Jeff:

Tell me, I wanted to find a little more about that – is in menopausal and post-menopausal women because you said before that women should stay away from things that create follicle stimulating hormones in the body, like Tribulus, like testosterone boosters but I’ve heard you said before for post-menopausal women they can be completely reversed.

Matt:

Perfect, for example the Alpha Mars we make –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

That is the best thing to give to a bloke of any age to make testosterone.

Jeff:

Yes, women shouldn’t use it though as a general rule.

Matt:

As a general rule, women can use it –

Jeff:

Except?

Matt:

Women can use it to increase all hormones including estrogen.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

Alpha Mar is perfect for young women –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Who have come into a comp – stripped out their body fat, screwed around with their menstrual cycle, the doctors have told them to put themselves into early menopause and they need to go on the pill or HRT. In those women they can do one bottle of the Alpha Mars and it would just kick in their menstrual cycle and bring it back into place; it will actually use – get the body using the follicle stimulating hormone to mature an egg and to trigger out menstrual cycle. We can’t just talk about estrogen as bad.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Estrogen is very important for bone, health, cardio vascular, bronchioles all sort of weird stuff; so they need it. In young women that want to add that or are estrogen deficient, they can use Alpha Mars to build it up but around that perimenopausal period it’s absolutely perfect because it can actually help to modulate all of your hormones into the ideal ratio so we can maintain DHEA, progesterone, testosterone and estrogen.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

And man it smashes hot flashes and dryness and fatigue and libido and a whole lot of stuff in menopausal women.

Jeff:

Wow.

Matt:

The same product can be used for a bloke in what they called andropause.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

Where typically what happens to men, around that mid-thirties is they knock their testicles out making anyway near as much testosterone is declining, their adrenal gland has to pick up the slack.

Jeff:

Yes right.

Matt:

These blokes have been working for 30 years and their adrenal glands are puffed, your testicles are not making enough testosterone – the adrenal gland are gonna pick up the slack; they’re struggling to make enough hormones to help you deal with stress, inflammation, fatigue and pain. So, your poor adrenal gland sneeds that extra support. Again, Tongkat Ali is a brilliant herb because what it can tell your adrenal gland in both men and women, reduce your cortisol production by about 20 or 30 percent, use those resources to increase your DHEA, progesterone, testosterone by 20 to 30 percent; and so it’s like the perfect fit, it’s not actually saying your cortisol is high let’s jack up another hormone high. It’s actually saying we gonna change your adrenal gland’s priorities from catabolic to anabolic.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

We’re gonna change your adrenal gland’s priorities from stress, break down – hopefully get through the day – to regeneration and repair; makes you feel awesome.

Jeff:

Yes that’s right.

Matt:

Yes that’s the key around that menopausal period.

Jeff:

And again Matt, going back to that one size does not fit all –

Matt:

No.

Jeff:

And different products can be used in different ways for different people for different purposes so –

Matt:

Yes.

Jeff:

But Matt look, thanks very much – that’s all that we’ve got time for today. Just sneak in one FAQ before we go from Allan actually. He asks, “Hi guys, how many Alpha Mars should I take a day and when should I take them?” Alpha Mars – just to create a bit of context – Alpha Mars is our testosterone busting product which contains Tongkat Ali, Shilijit, and other cool herbs. Designed particularly for men to increase testosterone but as Matt said can be used by women for various reasons as well too.

Matt:

Right, in fact, we should do a podcast just on Alpha Mars ingredients because it is freaky.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

We don’t try to confuse everyone by saying all the thing it can do –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

But it does; the proper dose is 4 a day, okay?

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

You don’t need to go more than four –

Jeff:

And why is that?

Matt:

You can – all right, I tell people four a day – they double it.

Jeff:

apparently more is better.

Matt:

Yes but for this herb, for example, for this ingredient four a day smacks you right in the top 30 percentile of the highest doses you need.

Jeff:

Right.

Matt:

That’s the dose that works in all the studies.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

You can take more at once if you wanted – you know four breaking if you remember but it kind of – that gives you a little bit too much of that Panax Ginseng in one dose –

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

And for me personally, I get a bit fiery with it. I don’t tolerate idiots which is not good in business –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

But sometimes you have to; so, I’ve found two in the morning to at night it works for me better there. Other people that are kind of – probably cool or deal with less idiots can have four at once –

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

That’s the dose.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

It’s really cool though, the ingredients in Alpha Mars –Like I know, we’ve talked about testosterone but that Shilijit alone – chronic fatigue syndrome, absolutely brilliant for – detox it’s actually used to strip out heavy metals and chelates, it does your immune system, it’s a powerful anti-inflammatory, it puts a horn on a jelly fish –

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

The stuff is absolutely amazing. I love it – I like the old ayurvedic texts describe it as – “the conqueror of mountains and the destroyer of weakness.”

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

It is the ultimate teaspoon of concrete and harden you know what up.

Jeff:

I remember coming down to the boardroom one time and Matt got all these packages from all over – obviously from India and all over the place – the Himalayas, what have you – with this different dirts, these compounds which are really –

Matt:

Ranging from mud to rock to resin.

Jeff:

Yes, yellow and brown and hard – and it’s so funny because I remember the amount of time that you spent actually looking for this perfect one and the one that you found – well, the feedback is sensational.

Matt:

That’s right. Well we’ve got the real stuff – I mean, what Shilijit is – it’s quite hard to explain but it’s actually – comes from between a 1000 and 10,000 feet above sea level in the Himalayas. It’s extracted through a particular process; but, at that part of the world there are plants that root down into minerals that can’t be found close to the surface anyway.

Jeff:

Yes.

Matt:

When these tectonic plates collide and made the Himalayas it brought minerals close to the surface. These plants can root down and access those minerals and what this Shilijit actually is, is a resinous sap from a couple of different plants that root down into these things; so, it depends on the region you get it from – is what sort of things are actually in it. It’s so hard to get a good quality, there’s over 85 known active ingredients in this one product.

Jeff:

Wow.

Matt:

Anyone out there claiming that they’ve got one concentrated to contain a high level of the active ingredient doesn’t understand it at all.

Jeff:

Yes, yes.

Matt:

It’s absolutely freaky stuff. It was very hard to find because as you can imagine, there’s a lot of dodgy companies out there but the one that we got is a cracker and we know exactly where it comes from. They’re working in with the local community that’s harvesting it. We pretty much take everything down mate, so we know that we’re not getting some dodgy stuff from China built up with saw dust and other stuff because that’s what they do. They buy the concentrated stuff from the Indians; take it over to China, thin it out with whatever the hell they want.

Jeff:

Right and then produce something that doesn’t work but that might look good on the label.

Jeff:

Then Allan says, “We asked this question like two in the morning –”

Matt:

Who’s Allan? Oh That’s right, Allan.

Jeff:

Allan.

Matt:

Allan, Allan.

Jeff:

Steve.

Matt:

Allen, Steve!

Jeff:

That’s an inside joke off BBC Animals. Allan, so take – or Steve; take two in the morning with breakfast, two at night –

Matt:

Allan.

Jeff:

That seems to work really, really well.

Matt:

Allan.

Jeff:

And you should get –

Matt:

Allan.

Jeff:

Good results with that.

Matt:

Allan.

Jeff:

Shut up. That’s all we’ve got time for – Matt last words?

Matt:

Steve – no, Steve.

Jeff:

Thanks very much guys for listening, we’ll be back next week.

Matt:

Thanks mate.