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Episode 220 – Mouldy Madness

In this episode – Matt, Elizma, and Steve approach the ever gruesome silent assassin – Mould. The history of Mould, its place in the evolution of modern medicine but also its fatal capabilities too. Where to find it, how best to avoid it and what to look for if you have been exposed to some forms of it.


Jeff:                       Good day guys, Jeff and Matt from ATP Science. We’ve got a personalized health summit that we’re doing at the Gold Coast Convention Center on November 2nd and 3rd. Matt, what is your personalized health summit all about?

Matt:                     Well basically what we’re going to do is we’re going to help you find out where you’re at. We’re go through your symptom picture questionnaire, find out what your particular health priorities are, and then over a couple of days we’ve got some great guest speakers coming from everywhere, all over Australia and the world. We’ve got Rich Kreider coming over, the expert on Creatine.

Jeff:                       Head of the ISSN.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah. He’s the head of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, and works with Texas University, mainly the NFL and the American military, those sort of people, so some great knowledge.

Jeff:                       Grandfather of Creatine actually, one of the-

Matt:                     Yeah, pretty much.

Jeff:                       Yeah, and he’s a smart, smart guy.

Matt:                     Yup.

Jeff:                       Who else we got Matt?

Matt:                     Simon Hill from Plant Proof.

Jeff:                       Excellent, we had him on the podcast.

Matt:                     Sofie Van Kempen. We’ve got James Newberry, Carol Saunders.

Jeff:                       Don’t forget we’ve also got Elizma Lambert as well too.

Matt:                     Ken Ware. Ken Ware, I mean he’s capable of getting people out of wheel chairs and probably worth a mention.

Jeff:                       It’s really going to be something that’s a bit special, and you’re going to be able to follow along with your own questionnaire so that when you’re listening to the information you’re going to be able to effectively help to diagnose your issues or your areas, and things that you want to be able to work on.

Jeff:                       At the end we’re going to get all these guys together with a big panel for a massive Q&A section. You’re going to be able to break out into electives, and ask questions, and learn specifically about different areas that these guys are experts in. It’s something pretty different, pretty exciting, and we’re looking forward to it.

Matt:                     Yeah, I can’t wait.

Jeff:                       Yeah. All right, well jump online to That’s where you can actually learn more, so Matt?

Matt:                     Sweet, see you there.

Jeff:                       See you there.

Matt:                     November 2nd and 3rd.

Steve:                   Welcome to the ATP Project, and today we’ve got an absolutely fascinating talk on molds. Believe it or not we’re going to be talking all afternoon about molds. The beautiful thing about molds is they’re good, they’re bad, and they’re ugly. There’s some that are really good, some that are really bad, and some that are downright ugly, so sit back and enjoy.

Jeff:                       As always this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information in this podcast with your health care professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start.

Speaker 3:           Welcome to the ATP Project. Delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance, and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best, or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax, and open your mind as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.

Steve:                   Welcome to the ATP Project, thank you for laughing over the intro there Brooke. Look at this, we’ve got a fantastic day. We’re going to be talking about fungus and mold today. How cool is that?

Matt:                     That is fun.

Steve:                   Yeah, how’s your eye today?

Matt:                     It’s good.

Steve:                   That’s good, because you had-

Matt:                     Why do you ask?

Steve:                   Because you had a condition before.

Matt:                     I had blepharism.

Steve:                   Blepharism.

Matt:                     I had a “rism” of my blephar.

Steve:                   Yeah, exactly.

Matt:                     There’s where I had a spasm in my eyelid.

Steve:                   There you go, now it’s all good?

Matt:                     Yeah, a little twitch. So next time you get a little twitch, and instead of going up to someone and say, “Hey, can you see that”, because that’s what I always do. I get a little twitch, and then I say, “Can you see it”, and no one can and they think I’m weird. So next time just go, I’m actually having a blepharism right now.

Steve:                   It does sound a little bit rude, just a smidgen.

Matt:                     I think you got a dirty mind Steve.

Steve:                   Or that’s probably-

Matt:                     No one else would ever be sitting there thinking, geez, that sounds rude.

Steve:                   But Elizma doesn’t think it’s rude, do you?

Elizma:                  No, I’m starting to make the connection between-

Matt:                     Why the hell would she Steve? No look, don’t even justify that with a response Elizma. It’s not rude Steve, we’re talking about a twitching in the eyelid.

Steve:                   It just sounds it. It sounds like other things that are to do with other parts of the body.

Matt:                     Like what?

Steve:                   I don’t want to say.

Matt:                     No, tell me. I want to know what’s going through your mind Steve, tell me. When I said … Look, let’s go through this scenario. I’m twitching my eye, so Steve …

Steve:                   But John was twitching his eyes with-

Matt:                     I’ve got myself a bit of a blephar. I’m having a blepharism.

Steve:                   Yeah, John said that to me before too. He was winking at me, and he said, “Oh sorry, I just had a blepharism”, and I didn’t know if it was.

Matt:                     Oh, so that’s where … Okay.

Steve:                   It’s a little bit of a worry.

Matt:                     Your brain, when you think dirty, that’s just some bloke winking at you.

Steve:                   It’s funny.

Matt:                     That’s strange.

Steve:                   It’s funny talking about dirtying today, we’re going to be talking about a lot of spots that you see on the wall.

Matt:                     Nice segue.

Steve:                   Black spots and weird colors because all these-

Matt:                     We’re going to put the fun in fungus.

Steve:                   We’re going to put the fun in fungus. So we’re talking about molds, all these really cool molds, and all these really bad molds, and the kill-you mold, and awkward toxins, and all these sorts of spores, and that sort of thing that really cause us grief. And some that really help us, you know, can save a lot of lives. So it’s a very, very weird podcast today, and researching for it has basically carpeted the table with scientific studies.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     There is so much, isn’t there?

Steve:                   There is, one going back to 1866, and you know what happened in 1866 didn’t you? You know what happened back then?

Matt:                     What happened? Tell me.

Steve:                   Dynamite was invented.

Matt:                     Oh, really?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     What the hell’s that got to do with mold?

Steve:                   Well that’s the same day that the first mold paper came out.

Matt:                     Whoa.

Steve:                   1866.

Matt:                     Holy segue. [crosstalk 00:05:20]. The whole of 1866 to create a link, but the day that dynamite was invented they published a paper on mold?

Steve:                   Absolutely.

Matt:                     Tell us about this.

Steve:                   Scientific paper-

Matt:                     It sounds mind blowing.

Steve:                   It’s called, The Action of Fungi in the Production of Disease. How cool is that? This is when they first suggested that these little gut things hanging on the wall and in the ground in the garden cause disease. Brooke, it causes disease.

Matt:                     Brooke is just us …

Steve:                   She’s lost it.

Matt:                     I don’t know what’s happening here.

Steve:                   I don’t know. Where were we going in the ’66 season? That’s when the rectal thermometer was also invented too.

Matt:                     Why did you point at Brooke then too?

Steve:                   Because I’m giving a scientific fact, she loves them.

Matt:                     Don’t mix that up with your dynamite.

Steve:                   No, no, you don’t. Not that one.

Matt:                     Rectum all right.

Steve:                   Yeah, rectum … The worst part about it was the inventor’s name was Dr. Tom Allbutt, and I’m not joking. I am not joking. Please, this is scientific-

Matt:                     So we’ve got the … Hang on, so far in 1866-

Steve:                   Yep, when the [crosstalk 00:06:18]-

Matt:                     -it’s all about the Allbutt.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     Because you can do dynamite, you’ve got rectal thermometers. Hang on, when did they invent the oral thermometer? Or [crosstalk 00:06:25] thermometer, if the rectal one came out in 1866?

Steve:                   Well that was the one-

Matt:                     Hopefully after it.

Steve:                   Hopefully after it.

Matt:                     Well, what … I don’t know.

Steve:                   Hopefully they’re different ones.

Matt:                     Hopefully it’s just a different thermometer.

Steve:                   Yeah, different thermometers. Yeah, you don’t want-

Matt:                     Or if at least you wash it in between.

Steve:                   Very, very well you’re washing it clean.

Matt:                     And don’t mix it up with your dynamite.

Steve:                   Exactly.

Matt:                     Now let’s get back to the mold.

Steve:                   The mold, because mold, this was the first paper by Tilbury Fox, MD, who came out and said-

Matt:                     Hang on, what happened to Allbut?

Steve:                   Allbutt invented the thermometer.

Matt:                     Oh. Don’t point at me like that.

Steve:                   I’m trying to give a description of the thermometer.

Matt:                     How long is your thermometer?

Steve:                   Why do you ask?

Matt:                     Anyway, carry on.

Steve:                   But this is when the first science-

Matt:                     You’re scaring me. You keep pulling out these big hand gestures of giant thermometers.

Steve:                   Here’s an actual copy of that scientific paper. Look at the color of the paper back then.

Matt:                     I can see that.

Steve:                   It’s awesome, and it showed that they actually suggested that maybe this fungi stuff causes diseases. It caused lung diseases, and that’s when they said, you know, they related it back to Chinese medicine, how dumb our damp heat caused lung disorders, and all this other stuff. This was the first scientific paper that actually said that these guys actually cause disease.

Matt:                     Yeah, wow.

Steve:                   Isn’t that amazing?

Matt:                     That is, in 1866?

Steve:                   1866, when dynamite was invented by …

Matt:                     Allbutt. No, he did the rectum.

Steve:                   It was actually … have you heard of the Nobel Peace Prize?

Matt:                     I have heard of that.

Steve:                   The dynamite was invented by Dr. Nobel.

Matt:                     Really?

Steve:                   Yeah, so the Peace Prize is named after the inventor of dynamite.

Matt:                     Bloody hell, you know some weird shit.

Steve:                   I know, it’s useless shit though.

Matt:                     No, it’s good.

Steve:                   Okay, it’s good though.

Matt:                     It fills up half the … look, we’re five minutes into a podcast.

Steve:                   Can I tell you, that’s when they … 1866 is a very famous year for eyes. When they discovered there were two types of receptors in the eyes; one for color, and one for black and white.

Matt:                     Really?

Steve:                   Rods and cones. That was another in 1866.

Matt:                     What a fantastic year.

Elizma:                  Seems to have been a … yeah, great year for [crosstalk 00:08:05].

Matt:                     Steve was also born in 1866.

Steve:                   I was born.

Matt:                     Which is why he knows so many facts about this interesting year.

Steve:                   I was there. I knew Daddy Warbucks personally.

Matt:                     Yeah, I bet you did. All of them.

Steve:                   Oh my God, but that’s when this whole thing came to fruition. And then he questioned it, he said the actual fungus … It was a famous paper, and it was released, and that it caused this disease. So before then they went, “Oh, well you just got sick, who knows why? You just got it.”

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah. Well they would have been used to bad smells too. I mean, like the mustier air, because a lot of the way … when I’m reading through these papers, there’s two different ways they want to screen people to see if they’re likely. You know, they basically say, “Can you see mold or something in your house? Or can you smell it?” So, back then everything would’ve been kind of moldy and smelly I suppose. The hygiene was a big issue.

Steve:                   And [crosstalk 00:08:54]-

Matt:                     They’re not understanding.

Steve:                   Exactly, because smell was the cause of disease, which is why-

Matt:                     Way back before all then. Way back before all that, when they used to gather up into groups and everything like that for ceremonies and churches, and that they always used to burn incense, and myrrh and frankincense were really common ones. One of the cool things about myrrh in particular is the smoke from burning myrrh can actually penetrate even into wood grain, and break up biofilm, and kill all fungus and mold and all that sort of stuff as well. So, there was a little strategies.

Matt:                     We were talking about it before, there’s weird little things in cultures and traditions that people do. In Australia, we tend to take a lot of what we like from other cultures, and not take on the weird shit that people have been doing for thousands of years and don’t understand why. It tastes bad, or it’s awkward. Then you find those things is where you get the real magic, you know? Like, you get the frankincense and the myrrh.

Matt:                     We were talking before about, Peking duck, for example. The red yeast rice that they used to ferment the rice to make it go red and everything like that to coat the Peking ducks that. I don’t think that was necessarily just to make the duck red, but they might’ve had all these other health benefits, and noticed that over time you get less cardiovascular disease eating those foods and that sort of stuff when it’s coated in this red stuff they make, you know?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   Red mold, yeah.

Matt:                     And then that red mold, red yeast rice or red mold, becomes the original. Or not the original, but it was a form of the medication.

Steve:                   Lovastatin.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah, it contains high levels of Lovastatin. So do a few other mushrooms, and all those sort of molds and a few other fungi. There, that inhibits they’re 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl-CoA reductase enzyme. That reduces cholesterol, and it’s one of the biggest selling drugs in the world today.

Matt:                     Yeah, so that’s a HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor.

Steve:                   That’s the one.

Matt:                     That’s the same as all your statins?

Steve:                   Statins, yeah.

Matt:                     Are we doing that? [inaudible 00:10:40]. They all work the same because of-

Steve:                   Yeah, there are other classes of cardiovascular drugs, like nicotinic acid, which reduces triglycerides and that. That’s a form of vitamin B3 that can give you a flushing. Then of course they had the [inaudible 00:10:51], which works slightly differently. They reduce those numbers slightly, and the triglycerides, and then the statins came out and really reduced those things. Have really bad side effects, but they do reduce the LDL cholesterol.

Matt:                     That’s crazy, so there’s a long history of us realizing that these mold, and these spores, and these sorts of things potentially can make us sick.

Steve:                   Oh, yeah.

Matt:                     So, what are we at now? What does it do? How does it make us sick? What sort of sicknesses can it make us?

Elizma:                  Well, it mainly makes us sick through the biotoxins, or the mycotoxins that it produce.

Matt:                     Yeah, so is that the smell, or is that the … What is it? What’s a mycotoxin?

Elizma:                  Mycotoxin, it’s just like bacteria can produce lipopolysaccharides or endotoxins in our guts, so can mold produce mycotoxins. So, mold would have a bigger molecular structure, so you can actually measure for mold, but mycotoxins is the stuff that they give off. They’re tiny, tiny in size, which is why they’re so hard to measure.

Matt:                     Does it have to be inside? Do we have to have like mold growing inside us to release mycotoxin?

Elizma:                  No, not at all.

Matt:                     Or can we breathe mycotoxin and-

Elizma:                  You can just breathe it in, so you can have mold-

Matt:                     If I lick it off the windows and stuff.

Elizma:                  Yeah. You can have mold, and these mold spores, anywhere in the house, can produce these mycotoxins. You inhale those mycotoxins through the nasal cavities, they go and sit in on the olfactory receptors, which is inside the nose. Those olfactory receptors have a direct link to the brain, and that’s how it produces a lot of the neurological symptoms that we experience, or that we see in people who have lots of mold issues.

Matt:                     Yeah, right. So we don’t even have to … You’re not talking about this stuff actually having to saturate every cell of our body or something.

Elizma:                  No.

Matt:                     So, we don’t actually have to have colonies of mold growing inside us, like we might see in your bathrooms or someone’s roof or whatever, for it to be able to release this mycotoxin. If there’s enough mycotoxin in your environment around you, you bring it all in, and you’re saying it binds to the nerves in your nose, the olfactory nerves are the things that just pick up our smells.

Elizma:                  Yep.

Matt:                     And that sends a signal straight to the brain, that what, changes your behavior or your mood?

Elizma:                  Yeah. Great inflammatory response in the brain.

Matt:                     Because I suppose that’s how we know we’re about to be poisoned, wouldn’t it?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Innately, our innate immune system, if we’re likely to be about to inhale … Now I’m watching Stranger Things at the moment, and I’m a bit slow …

Elizma:                  Oh, the new season, yes.

Matt:                     I’m a bit slow, so I’m just … Now all these mold spores are freaking me out thinking it’s the upside down.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Matt:                     So, you get this stuff in, and does it do it via the nerve or does the actual mycotoxin get into you, like your bloodstream and get into your brain? Or is it done just by tricking your body into thinking you’re about to be infected or poisoned, get the hell out?

Elizma:                  It can do both. So, it can either just bind to the receptors and create a signaling response in the brain, which then disrupts a whole bunch of other neuropeptides. Neuropeptides are proteins that is involved in communication between the brain and the rest of the body. So it starts disrupting all of these neuropeptides, which includes leptin, vasoactive intestinal peptides, and a whole bunch of other ones, which then has flow on effects to our hormones, our detoxification, our kidneys.

Steve:                   Neurotransmitters.

Elizma:                  And this is the symptoms we experience, we experience these physical symptoms, but it all comes from disrupted communication in the brain caused by these mycotoxins that we’ve inhaled.

Matt:                     That’d be similar to other survival mechanisms, like inflammatory, like first-line defense kind of things.

Elizma:                  Absolutely.

Matt:                     Like we trigger … we prime the immune system. We then prime our inflammatory responses, and we change the way our liver works, and we also change our brain. So we’re not … I mean, as part of a survival response, short term memory concentration span, attention to detail, close vision, meditation, relaxation, study, all those things are not important. As survival response, it’d be off, find the horizon, gut instincts, intuition, anxieties. So does it manifest with those sort of behavioral things that get in the way of learning and that sort of stuff?

Elizma:                  That’s right, because the whole response in the body is primarily an immune response. So it’s again, like you know how everything in the body needs energy, but the immune system uses up so much ATP, or energy. So the body is just like, well I’m shunting energy away from the dopamine, and from this, and from that, and it’s all going into the immune system to try and get this inflammation under control.

Matt:                     See that’s interesting. I was looking at, because some of the signs and symptoms to know if you’re exposed to it, or infected with it, a lot of allergic and inflammatory things. I even had to look at one paper where it’s a big problem in China, the Sick-Building Syndrome.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     I was looking at it in through China, because I got a lot of links with atopic dermatitis, or the eczema, and that sort of stuff linked in with the mold. What they were finding is that they didn’t actually find a lot of IgE molecules directly associated with the mold, but what they have found is the people that had exposure to mold had more aggressive, or more IgE reactions, to things like dust mites, foods, and everything else.

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     So the way they described it in these papers is that the actual exposure to the mold, and in particular the smells and that sort of stuff for the mold, primed they’re allergic inflammation. So then when they get exposed to something, they’re more likely to get an immune memory against it, and then they reduce that.

Elizma:                  I think that’s part of the mast cell activation syndrome as well, so that’s been associated with mold as well.

Matt:                     Yeah, and that’s all this new histamine stuff, everyone’s talking about these histamine reactions to foods. So we’re talking about mast cells de-granulating, releasing histamine and that sort of stuff. If you think about it, I mean, of course, our mucosa, that’s our first-line of defense in regards to a flushing reaction. The big point too, with immune cells, so the immune system, we kind of got the T Alpha-1 that’s designed to deal with it. That’s a simplified term, but the T Alpha-1’s are designed to engulf and remove little things.

Matt:                     So when it’s a spore, then they can engulf it and try to kill it, but as soon as it becomes and gets to these high phased, and these arms and legs, and becomes like a moldy colony, you can’t engulf and remove those. It’s too big for the immune system. So we have to do a chemical attack, which is a flushing reaction, just like histamine reactions, and those sorts of detoxification of those flushing reactions that might occur systemically.

Steve:                   Just one quickly, what you’re alluding to, one of the famous toxins that have been research the most is ochratoxin. Ochratoxin A, which has been found to be associated with autism.

Matt:                     Yeah, right.

Steve:                   Yeah, because what we find in there, that it stuffs the neuro chemistry up and increases dopamine levels in the brain.

Matt:                     Yeah, wow.

Steve:                   So there’s a paper in 2015 that showed that they’ve actually now linked this toxin to autism, and this toxin can be found in the gut when you eat the wrong sort of foods, like crappy grains and that sort of stuff, and it can be coming from the environment. So, we see a lot of kids with autism, or behavioral disorders we’ll call them, but once they’re removed from the house, and they go to a summer camp or something, and they’ve got, “No, your kid’s fine.”

Matt:                     Oh, yeah.

Steve:                   And then they come back, and its toxic environment at home, and it’s not …

Matt:                     Emotionally toxic, or something.

Steve:                   Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and all of a sudden now it’s really toxic.

Matt:                     Or it’s the bad food you’re eating.

Steve:                   Exactly.

Matt:                     Now when I had a look at the foods that are most likely to be giving you these molds, oregano, your dried herbs were the worst. 10% of all the dried herbs they tested in one study were found to be contaminated with proper levels of these particular molds.

Elizma:                  Wow.

Steve:                   Yeah, that’s bad.

Matt:                     They also found it was really high levels in fresh salad, pre-made packaged fresh salads can be really high with these molds, and that sort of stuff as well. So, it’s not just a matter of beating everyone up over feeding your kids colorings, and that sort of stuff. Sometimes it could be these healthy foods, and that’s the stuff that people don’t look at. I always had that same problem with oxalates and that. Remember we used to put everyone onto a good healthy diet, and all of a sudden everything goes bad, and you’re like, “Oh, you got oxalate.”

Elizma:                  Yeah, yeah.

Matt:                     So just be wary of those. What other foods is it?

Elizma:                  Tomatoes.

Matt:                     Tomatoes?

Steve:                   Yeah, real bad. Yeah.

Elizma:                  So tomatoes they use all the moldy tomatoes in commercial sauce making, so tomato sauce, tomato paste, pasta sauces. Unless you make it yourself, it’s probably riddled with mold.

Matt:                     Oh.

Elizma:                  I know, I was quite disgusted when I …

Matt:                     Hey, but so what happens when they cook the shit out of the mold? What happens if they boil the bugger in toxins?

Steve:                   You’re still [crosstalk 00:19:16] the toxins.

Matt:                     But the toxins will be in there?

Elizma:                  Still be there.

Matt:                     Your ochratoxins.

Steve:                   Yeah, ochratoxin A is one. So yeah, it’s a little bit scary. There is a little bit of good news, because a lot of people should be able to tolerate a small amount of mold because being exposed to them for millions of years. But, there are people who are sensitive to it, or if you’re immunocompromised, you can get really bad infections and die from them.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah. Or if you get a big enough dose, I suppose.

Steve:                   Yeah, big enough dose.

Matt:                     If you’re inhaling it constantly. You know, like … yeah, because a lot of people live with this stuff.

Steve:                   Very much so.

Matt:                     And, you’re saying it’s not what you can’t … Most people see mold, a lot of people see mold, and they go through and go, “You know what, this stuff I’m starting to think might be bad for me.”

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     By the time you’re seeing it, you’re in harms, and you know-

Elizma:                  Absolutely.

Matt:                     You’ve got problems, because you’ve got paint on your walls, behind that they could be growing through the wood, they can be everywhere and hiding everywhere. Just bleaching them will take the color away, but it won’t take the mold away, will it?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     It’ll just bleach them, not kill them.

Elizma:                  You’ve just bleached it, yeah. I think that’s very important. People need to understand, just painting over mold does not mean … just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Matt:                     Yeah, and scrubbing it off. Like, if they were to scrub it back, and then sand back, and then prime and paint, and they go “Look, I’ve fixed the mold issue.” No.

Elizma:                  No, you haven’t, because a lot of that penetrates into these … I don’t know much about building, but the walls are quite porus, so it does sort of penetrate into that.

Matt:                     Yeah, even more so now, because they had that seven year warranty when you get a new house.

Steve:                   Building warranty.

Matt:                     So they started making material to last seven years, instead of getting material to last for a long time. That way everyone has to build a new house every seven, ten years.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Steve:                   Because most molds live with water and cellulose, and cellulose is a material found in all woods and those sorts of things, so it’s everywhere.

Matt:                     Yeah, in the fibers. It’s just the fibrous …

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:21:03] green leafy veggies or your salads, all that sort of stuff is full of cellulose, that’s what you blowing out after a salad, isn’t it?

Steve:                   Yeah, exactly. Of course the aspergillus is another a really bad mold, and that’s incredibly common throughout everywhere. That can release those spores that cause those sorts of-

Matt:                     What are the main ones? The stachybotrys is the black death.

Steve:                   Yep, the bad one.

Elizma:                  Yep, that’s black one.

Matt:                     That’s the one they talk about is the toxic black mold.

Steve:                   Yep, black mold. Yep.

Matt:                     But when they say toxic black mold, it’s not the one associated with … No, it’s the one you find all through your house mainly, right?

Steve:                   It is, yeah.

Matt:                     So they’re the ones you find in between your tiles, in your grout, and that sort of stuff. You’ll find it against the walls. You find pictures of that, and you’ll recognize it.

Elizma:                  Very heavy in water damaged buildings, yeah.

Steve:                   I’ve got a horrifying picture of that, but I think everyone knows they’ve seen the black mold.

Matt:                     So I had a really cool case. My first exposure … my first exposure to mold. My first case, a really weird case study associated with mold, it was a good friend of mine. Well, he’s become a good friend now. I met this guy, he’d moved from Tasmania in a really wet, cold, damp, moldy as hell house, to North Queensland, because he kept having respiratory problems. Thought he’d moved to North Queensland where they’ve got the humidity, and the hot air, and it’ll fix his problems from Tazzy. But no, he goes, he had a great life up in North Queensland. Years, and years, and years, later he gets told he’s got lung cancer, a couple of weeks to live.

Matt:                     Turned out that it wasn’t, it was pulmonary hemosiderosis, which was these, like traces of iron deposits that were put all through the lungs that resembled cancer on the scans. It turned out that he was loaded up with stachybotrys. So we used a particular herb, sanguisorba. We did outgrow it with a number of things really, because we went and treated it. Still at that point we’d gone through the differential diagnosis, is it really cancer or is it something else? So we’re doing lots of things. Anyway, two weeks later it had all cleared up, and now he’s still alive now. They decided they misdiagnosed it, like they do, rather than say that someone worked out something to fix someone, but that was a good one.

Matt:                     Another one commonly found with children, is mesenteric adenitis, which is like tonsillitis all through your gut, but it causes rank gut cramps. It’s the same thing, it’s just immune burden, constant immune burden with these adenitis. It’s just these immune systems just catching all of these mycotoxins, any spores that might be coming through, and catching them in through the lymph nodes, and it’s just swelling up. It just because we’ve got such a large surface area that it’s no longer just [inaudible 00:23:24] to the throat that we’re now getting the lymph nodes systemically involved, but bloody hard to treat especially in kids.

Steve:                   Very hard to diagnose too, because these people feel fatigue, they’ve got achy joints, they’ve got swollen things. It’s like, “Oh, you’ve got a virus, go away.”

Matt:                     So how do you diagnose it?

Steve:                   Well, it’s very difficult.

Matt:                     Is it blood, or is it …

Elizma:                  It’s mainly through symptom picture, so you can obviously do-

Matt:                     What’s a symptom picture? Like, inflammation and allergies?

Steve:                   [crosstalk 00:23:45].

Elizma:                  There’s some … Sure, there’s a lot of general symptoms, like fatigue and all of that, but there are a couple of symptoms that’s sort of like telltale signs. The one that Steve mentioned was if they go somewhere, and they feel better. So every time they leave the house, they go on holiday, they feel better. They come back to their house, they feel worse. So, that’s a big telltale sign. But, then there’s also like interesting symptoms like electric shocks. So people who get electric … You know when you rub your feet on the carpet, and you get a little electric …

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah.

Elizma:                  That’s a big telltale sign.

Matt:                     Oh my gosh, I’m so moldy. Yeah?

Elizma:                  Yeah, and that’s because of the VIP or the vasoactive intestinal peptide. That’s because that neuropeptide generally drops in the presence of mold, and its job is for the kidneys to reabsorb water.

Matt:                     Yeah, is there bed wetting in that as well?

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Matt:                     Oh, I definitely have mold.

Elizma:                  That’s when you’re … Wow, then we need to test you. We need to treat you. But, that also causes water to just run through you, so you just drink water, and it just flushes through you, but it’s great electrolyte imbalances, and it’s electrolyte imbalances that creates the electric shocks.

Matt:                     Oh, that’s so cool. Because then one of the other symptoms that I commonly hear, and people will talk about the adrenals. So when the adrenals are exhausted, I’ve got no cortisols, I’ve got no mineralocorticoids to hold my salt into the body. So, a differential diagnosis for that might be mold.

Elizma:                  Absolutely.

Matt:                     So when you’re looking at this … So man, what else? Is there anything? So leave the home and I become good. I come back, and I’m spazzed.

Steve:                   You want to hear a big list of them?

Matt:                     Oh yeah, definitely.

Steve:                   Which again, sound like everything.

Matt:                     But not the boring ones.

Steve:                   Oh, no, they’re all boring. Coughing, wheezing, stuffy nose or running nose, red eyes, itchy skins, sore itchy throat and nosebleeds are the symptom of black mold exposure. That’s like every other disease under the sun, isn’t it?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   And it can get worse, to persistent coughing, headaches, frequent chest colds, difficulty breathing, allergic reaction, inflammation of the sinuses, general fatigue and lethargic.

Matt:                     Electrocuting your children and pissing all over the place.

Steve:                   Absolutely, that’s more exciting.

Elizma:                  Usually it’s also people who just can’t get better. So you’ve done everything, and it’s like this really hard to treat case. Also, people find it very hard to detoxify from anything, and the reason for that is because mold biotoxins, and ochratoxin A specifically, inhibits, or it stops the activation of an enzyme called NRF2, and I can’t remember the real name of it.

Matt:                     Oh, nuclear receptor or something?

Steve:                   Nuclear erythroid factor 2.

Matt:                     Now, that’s really cool. We talk about NRF2 activators all the time. So what is it? You’re telling us that ochratoxin blocks NRF2 activation.

Elizma:                  Yes. It blocks NRF2 activation. So a couple of ways it does it, which is not really important, but it blocks the activation of NRF2, and NRF2 is needed to activate or up regulate all other detoxification enzymes. Which is [inaudible 00:26:38], or heme oxygenase-1, which is needed to detoxify iron, which is probably why fits in with your case, with the iron deposits in the lungs.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah. [inaudible 00:26:48].

Elizma:                  So, it’s involving all of that. Imagine if you have mold-like toxins, mold biotoxins inhibiting NRF2, which is then inhibiting all your other detoxification pathways, you’re not going to be able to detox. You’re not going to be able to detox metals, environmental chemicals.

Matt:                     Now what if I’m taking NRF2 activators, like really high doses? For example, not me, I’m not talking about me, but people. NRF2 activators are really good ones, we’re looking at anything [inaudible 00:27:18]. Yeah, so all your radishes and brassica and broccoli’s. We’re looking at things like ashwagandha, tumeric, resveratrol. A lot of the things we could talk about as antioxidants, schisandra is amazing, pomegranates amazing.

Matt:                     So, if people are taking those sorts of things to activate NRF2, but you’ve got mold exposure, will they work?

Elizma:                  Some of them do. Like, I know the dim, or the diindolylmethane is one of the things that they do recommend to … I don’t know if this is actually why it works, but I remember reading once that it’s like it kicks the mold biotoxins molecule off the binding site to NRF2, or something like that.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah.

Elizma:                  So I thought, oh, that would be really cool if that’s what he does.

Matt:                     Yeah, that is interesting. Well it does add a lot … It has a lot, dim has a lot of effect on receptors and blocking receptors.

Steve:                   [inaudible 00:28:07].

Matt:                     It’s most famous as an androgen receptor blocker.

Elizma:                  Yep.

Matt:                     So yeah, that’s cool man.

Elizma:                  So I thought that was interesting. Now there’s some other interesting things that show that if you have a diet that’s very high in flavonoids, so flavonoids is what you find in coffee, and in vegetables, and you know, it’s like your fruits and stuff like that, if your diet’s naturally quite high in that and you get exposed to mold and ochratoxin, microtoxins and things like that, it will actually stop the mycotoxins from inhibiting that NRF2. In other words, it’s not going to have an effect, just you’ll still be able to detoxify really well and all of that.

Matt:                     Yeah, okay.

Elizma:                  But if your diet is low in flavonoids, that’s when these mycotoxins have that effect, and if you then take flavonoids because you now got mycotoxin illness, it’s not going to work. So it has a protective effect, but it doesn’t have a treatment effect, and this could probably explain why some people get so sick in mold environments and others don’t, because not everyone gets sick. Sure, our bodies get a bit inflamed, but some people get really, really sick, and that could be-

Matt:                     This might be why kids too. It might be why kids are really predisposed to this, because the children haven’t had the load, that the flavonols and that sort of stuff. Plus, it’s hard to get those things in, because a lot of those compounds tend to have a bitter principal to them, which kids have a natural aversion to. That’s crazy, man.

Steve:                   Crazy, isn’t it.

Matt:                     So this ochratoxin, it can inhibit the NRF2 activation, which means it can slow down glucuronidation and maybe linked into any of those estrogen disorders?

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     Does it have any sort of effect at liberating the bound estrogen as well? You know, like beta glucuronidase, do you know?

Elizma:                  It probably would.

Matt:                     Because that’s going to un-glucorate things.

Elizma:                  Yeah, it’s going to make those water soluble toxins, toxic again, and have them be absorbed back into the body.

Matt:                     Yeah, so anything that was bound in the bowel and on its way out, can then be liberated and reabsorbed.

Elizma:                  Absolutely.

Matt:                     That’s how we can have a source of an estrogen dominant. That’s where we might be part of our estrobolomes that we talk about with these estrogen dominant people.

Steve:                   Incredible.

Matt:                     That is really cool, man.

Steve:                   It’s scary in one way because mold’s everywhere, and makes 25% of the biomass worldwide. It’s incredible, isn’t it?

Matt:                     25% of the biomass is mold.

Steve:                   Yeah, when you think about all the jungles, it’s mold throughout it.

Matt:                     Yeah, so compost is all really moldy.

Steve:                   Yeah, compost is mold, and that’s what compost is. So, you’ve got to remember mold’s good, bad, and ugly, and also innocuous at the same time. It’s just so many of them. It’s like people, there’s great people, and there’s bad people, and there’s just different people. There’s different types of mold, so it’s a very diverse thing. Now we’ve picked on some of the bad ones, and so we should, because they can be found in your house and about 25% of houses have some sort of mold in them.

Matt:                     And our foods and everything.

Steve:                   Definitely in foods.

Matt:                     They can be in our food, but the weird thing is, they’re not likely to be in the highly processed, refined foods in a nitrogen flushed foil packaging, which people will criticize for things like autism and that sort of stuff. Not saying eat those things because they’d got no fungal load.

Elizma:                  No, no. No.

Matt:                     But I’m just saying is, just be aware that a lot of people … In the clinic it’s a big thing, because when people try to get good and everything goes bad, that might be an indication of the mold people. The mold people.

Steve:                   The mold people.

Matt:                     That’s what we will call them now.

Steve:                   Well, at least put-

Matt:                     The mold people.

Steve:                   Put a finger in a [inaudible 00:31:29]. Remember flavonoids is protective against molds, and most fresh foods are full of those. However, if it’s a processed or age fresh fruit, like some of the cold storage, then you’re going to have problems.

Matt:                     Well, so it takes … Didn’t we say it takes, what, two weeks, wasn’t the polyphenols reduced by 90%?

Steve:                   Yep, they’re very unstable.

Matt:                     So two weeks, and this is fresh stuff, just picked nice and just sitting there, if you were to wait two weeks to eat it. You see it at home, because I grow a lot of my stuff at home, this shit doesn’t last two weeks. When you pick it ripe, it’s good to go.

Steve:                   Yeah, and the good news is mold is very temperately sensitive. So put it in the fridge, it will be less likely to grow mold.

Matt:                     Oh, okay.

Steve:                   So that’s why our fridge preserves things.

Matt:                     Yeah, right, but moisture is a big problem.

Elizma:                  Yeah, moisture.

Steve:                   Moisture’s a big problem.

Matt:                     Yeah, so anything that’s got moisture in it’s likely to …

Steve:                   Most fridges, and now in freezers, don’t … Remember the old days, maybe I’m a bit old here.

Matt:                     You are really old.

Steve:                   But the freezers used to go full of ice, all the time, and now they don’t because they’re dehumidified.

Matt:                     Yeah, right.

Steve:                   So that’s how the new refrigeration systems work. In the old days, you’d defrost the freezer about once every month.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had one of them [inaudible 00:32:29].

Steve:                   I had to do it, chip them out and everything, it was one of my jobs.

Matt:                     Well, that is crazy. Hey, another thing on that, so when the mold comes in … No, hang on. We’ve been talking about the mycotoxin mainly, but you can get mold growing inside you, huh?

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     Because mold can colonize inside. The one thing I noticed with the moldy people, the moldy ones, they’re in their sinus. When they talk about sinus, they would describe it like they always have sinus congestion, but it’s not really productive. They’re not the people with the watery dripping only. They’ll always have histamine reactions, or something, and yeah, that happens occasionally. They’ll say, “Oh, when the seasons change.” Most of the time they’ll complain about a straight out congestion and almost like a swelling.

Matt:                     Then you see the pictures under the microscope of what the mold does when it colonizes in mucosa. It actually embeds into those membranes. I love that stuff. Then what they do then, this is the crazy thing, because like I said, they’re too big for the immune system to engulf and remove, so the body tries to do a chemical attack that contributes to all this inflammation, these T Alpha 7 N responses, and they just indiscriminate blast the membranes, or blast inflammation everywhere.

Matt:                     The other little problem is, it keeps priming their histamine reactions. They keep getting a lot more sneezing, they keep getting a lot more hay fever, but it’s just congestion. And you talk to them, and sometimes I’ll describe a color that’ll come out like mold.

Matt:                     What about lungs? It can go down into the lungs and colonize?

Steve:                   Yep, absolutely.

Matt:                     Then what happens is, the why it colonizes and moves, is it shoots these little spores, and the spores are just eggs, okay? But what’s amazing about them, these spores, a lot of these really stubborn fungi and mold, they got this polysaccharide shell. This amazing, tough shell. So what happens, normally your immune cells will find this spore, or bacteria, or virus, it’ll engulf it and remove it through phagocytosis. Then what I do is they poison it, and they blast it with chemicals to break up the shell, and that’s supposed to kill it.

Matt:                     These little buggers don’t die, so what happens is that the actual immune cells bring them into the body. That gets into the lymphatic system, they can then … the spores can come out.

Elizma:                  Yeah, they travel.

Steve:                   It’s crazy.

Matt:                     They can translocate. There’s a lot of data looking at now, can they translocate to the joints? Can they translocate to the brain? Can they do all of these weird things? But, if we think about the lymphatic system in our body, we’ve mentioned the mesenteric adenitis and other lymph nodes, swollen issues, and even maybe tonsillitis adenitis could be a lot of mold, but the glymphatic system in the brain could be another place.

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     All that water flushing through the brain. So the lymph of the brain, do you think we could be getting stuff into there releasing? Does it release mycotoxins, like once it’s in your body?

Steve:                   It upsets your biochemistry in your brain, that’s why you get dopamine problems such as-

Matt:                     Is that a survivor response induced by the mucosal immunity, or are we having a translocated moldy brain?

Steve:                   That’ a very good question. I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s a survivor response, or just a side effect of the toxins. It’s a little bit scary. It’s funny, you mentioned the sinus and all that sort of thing. Do you know which type of mold causes the worst sinus congestion? You’re not going to believe this, penicillium.

Matt:                     Oh, the one they use to treat sinus infection.

Steve:                   A different species, but penicillium is a very powerful [inaudible 00:35:44] in the body.

Matt:                     And that is actually the one that’s most constant associated with tonsillitis and that mesenteric adenitis.

Steve:                   Yeah, and it does cause gut issues too.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   That’s why at of people who say they allergic to penicillin. You ever heard of that saying?

Matt:                     I have.

Steve:                   Yeah, and that’s because the type of penicillin they use medicinally is very similar to the one you find in your furniture at home.

Matt:                     I’ve heard how people say, “I’m allergic to sulfur.” And I’ll say, “What does that mean?” And they said, “Oh, I took an antibiotic once.” Is that what you’re talking about as well?

Steve:                   Yeah, there are sulfur based drugs, like sulfasalazine is a drug, and penicillin sulfur based. Sulfur itself you use for bathing, but penicillin’s the classic one that causes nasal irritation.

Matt:                     So, to me, I’m hearing what we’re saying here, and like I said, I’m imagining Stranger Things now, because … No, seriously, this stuff all over the walls. So imagine, I mean this is what we’re talking about, so this stuff could be everywhere?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah, it is.

Matt:                     It is everywhere.

Steve:                   It is everywhere.

Matt:                     Unless … So when we’re immune compromised, their little buggers can come in and live. If we’ve got a strong immune system, and a good mucosal immunity, we can protect ourselves from it.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     If we’ve got really good hygiene throughout our house, and we’re making sure we’re not … We have a podcast previously called the Hygiene Hypothesis. So what do we do? Do we sterilize these things? How? Like, what do we do?

Steve:                   How to treat it is relatively simple, which is keeping the joint dry. So keeping the windows open, keeping the house aerated throughout the days, and keeping it light.

Elizma:                  Sun light.

Matt:                     You get the sunshine.

Elizma:                  Airing the mattresses, airing the towels, and the pillows and stuff.

Matt:                     And not just when I wet the bed.

Elizma:                  No.

Matt:                     This is a daily sort of thing, so you got to go through, get out, you got to clean, and look for other things. I grew up major problems with asthma, always a real sick kid, really sick kid. We had these, oh man I should’ve Googled it to find out what the hell it was, but you know how they’re weave mats they make. You get woven mats, and hats, and baskets. Well that was what my floor was made of, all these little squares of woven …

Elizma:                  Right.

Matt:                     I don’t know what the hell. I wish I Googled this before, it’s got a word for it, but that was all just mold contaminated stuff. It was like a compost as a car. We ripped that up, my asthma significantly improved. So look around your house and see if there’s things like that, that might be holding it. Areas that are holding moisture and water, that aren’t getting any sun, that you might need to blast with something. Have a look at the carpets, have a look at your mattresses, see how old everything is. But you should be able to smell it, huh?

Elizma:                  Well not every … if people are very sensitive to mold, they are like mold detectors. They can-

Matt:                     How else do I know it’s in my house, apart from seeing it?

Steve:                   There is a service you can get from, it’s called house hygiene services, or something. I can’t remember name the company, but they come around and check for mold properly.

Matt:                     Really?

Steve:                   Yeah. I can’t remember the name, that she’s …

Elizma:                  They can measure it in the air?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Yeah?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Elizma:                  Other important areas, because we’re thinking always inside the house, but I’ve had clients where it’s in the gutters, so it’s all the leaves in the gutters. They have lots of trees around the house, which means there’s no sunshine, and it’s a lot of moisture.

Matt:                     And compost.

Elizma:                  Mm-hmm (affirmative), so there’s a lot of those mold spores that goes through the window, or it goes to the windows. Air conditioning systems.

Matt:                     Potting mix.

Elizma:                  Big ones.

Matt:                     Sitting there with a potting mix, and everything like that, you can always smell it and see it. That’s crazy. So we can get exposure … So in a house, if we were to burn, I reckon burning that myrrh and the frankincense regularly, like getting that, and the burning of the myrrh. We got that product Resilience that’s got the myrrh, and the frankincense, and Reishi mushroom, which has also been shown to be really good for it.

Matt:                     So you can take that to treat internally, and maybe create an environment, so they’re less likely, but you’re not going to stop the inhalants and that stuff coming through with those herbs. So we need to kill that stuff that coats the walls, and sterilize the carpets, and have all that sort of stuff. But, we don’t really want to be doing it with really harsh, aggressive anti-microbial that indiscriminately kill everything.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     That’s why I really like herbs. They’re a little bit different than just killing bacteria.

Steve:                   Yeah, and mold, as I said, 25%, it’s on 25% of the biomass. So a crazy stat, 100,000 different species of fungal things. So some are good, some are bad, some will kill you, some will keep you alive forever.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   Incredible. You’ve got to remember, the problem with this stuff too, is it disrupts our gut dysbiosis.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve:                   You got to remember, because if you … This was the great discovery, 1928, when Fleming accidentally contaminated his Petri dish when it had bacteria on it, streptococcal bacteria. He accidentally got some penicillin mold on it, and it killed … it caught a ring, a little drop, and it killed it all around it. It killed the streptococcal.

Matt:                     That’s how they did that.

Steve:                   That was how he accidentally did it.

Matt:                     Oh, that’s so cool.

Steve:                   And, of course, they never actually clinically trialed it because it was so effective. They gave it to a policeman when they first developed enough, because it’s very difficult to grow penicillin, they called it mold juice by the way, in the old days.

Matt:                     Oh, good stuff, mold juice.

Steve:                   Juice, yeah. They gave it to a guy who was dying of septicemia, a bacterial infection of the blood, and he came alive and completely cured. Then they ran out of penicillin, and he died.

Steve:                   Then, of course, the major push was World War II. Was to make it to mass production, and by the end of World War II during D-Day, near the end of World War II, they had enough to keep the troops alive from all the bacterial infection, which was one of the reasons why they won the Second World War, on penicillin’s back. You’ve got to remember, if you’ve got a cut and a bacteria infection, you just died. You got gonorrhea, you just died. You know, strep, you got really sick and died, and so that was the end of it. Now you had an absolute cure.

Matt:                     Yeah, that’s crazy, huh?

Steve:                   Crazy, and they made it by bubbling purified water through corns to make, because you can’t just grow it in Petri dish, you have to make tons of it. So now it’s in mass production, and of course it’s become very ineffective nowadays. But back in those days, it was an incredibly effective medicine.

Matt:                     Yeah, wow.

Steve:                   No trials have actually been done on penicillin because it was so effective.

Matt:                     That is crazy, I didn’t know that.

Steve:                   Because it just cured people.

Matt:                     That’s funny, and then the other most commonly prescribed drug was the statins, which was made resembling the red yeast rice.

Steve:                   Well, it’s more than resembling it. Lovastatin is the same compound in …

Matt:                     Yeah, right.

Steve:                   The bad thing is, when you take a chemical on its own, it’s quite dangerous, it has side effects. But when you take the red yeast rice that’s been eaten since 300 BC or something, that’ll last in the gut, there’s no side effects.

Matt:                     Yeah, and most of the Peking duck stuff now is not red yeast rice, it’s just red food color, so we’re not getting those benefits.

Steve:                   I know, and same with eating oyster mushrooms. You have eaten them from Coles.

Matt:                     I love them.

Steve:                   Well, you’re on lovastatin.

Matt:                     It’s true.

Steve:                   2.6% of it by weight is lovastatin.

Matt:                     Really, 2.6% of an oyster mushroom …

Steve:                   Is lovastatin.

Matt:                     And that is full on.

Elizma:                  Wow.

Steve:                   So if you have 100 grams, which is not unusual, is it?

Matt:                     No.

Elizma:                  No, that’s not a lot.

Steve:                   So that’s 2.6 grams of lovastatin.

Matt:                     They’re also a good source of vitamin D, I know, mushrooms.

Steve:                   I didn’t look that up.

Elizma:                  Yeah, there’s a source of Vitamin D.

Matt:                     Oyster mushrooms are really good. I’m positive they’re a good source of D, and then that’s also one of the side effects of the lovastatin. Normally you don’t make D. That’s interesting, yeah.

Steve:                   Because cholesterol is made from D.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:42:55] Nature’s cool, it gives you the thing that you might need.

Steve:                   It does, because cholesterol turns into vitamin D. So, you’ve got to remember these foods/fungi, you know, these drugs are huge, and they are good for secondary prevention of heart disease. Not for primary prevention, so there was another study, I’ve got it here, that showed that basically if you take it to prevent a heart attack, your first one, it doesn’t work.

Matt:                     Yeah, right.

Steve:                   But it’s only good for secondary prevention. So, if you’ve had a heart attack it can be useful. But if you have the oyster mushrooms, or that sort of thing, you’re actually getting the drug, and the red yeast rice, without the side effects. I’ve got a … well it’s too long to read.

Matt:                     Isn’t that funny? Peking duck and oyster mushrooms, that’s better than the statin. That’s like the original statin protocol.

Steve:                   Yeah, and here’s a paper published last year on the therapeutic properties of mushroom, oyster mushroom, and it also improves your diabetes. Now statins make diabetes worse.

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah.

Steve:                   But this improves diabetics, and it reduces inflammation.

Matt:                     That is so cool.

Steve:                   It helps muscle function, had no side effects on liver and kidney yet. The statin drug has all those started effects, including muscles, stuffing up your muscles. In fact, there was a drug, one of the statins was banned because it increased rhabdomyolysis by, you’re going to love this figure, 8,000%.

Elizma:                  Wow.

Steve:                   Over the other statins.

Matt:                     Whoa, it’d even hit the neighbor. Holy hell.

Steve:                   Just horrendous side effects.

Matt:                     It is.

Steve:                   For example for you-

Matt:                     Unless you go back and complain of it, and they’ll say it’s [inaudible 00:44:22], which has nothing to do with it.

Steve:                   Yeah, yeah, you know, like-

Matt:                     They do.

Elizma:                  Yeah, they do.

Steve:                   Yeah, like [inaudible 00:44:26], if you take that with berberine, in one study it improved insulin resistance, glucose, lipids.

Matt:                     Take what with berberine?

Steve:                   Red yeast rice.

Matt:                     Yeah, right.

Steve:                   So it’s very, very beneficial for your liver. It’s great for angiotensin II levels, so great for your kidney.

Matt:                     Berberine is another one of those ones for that mucosal immunity, and breaking up the biofilm.

Steve:                   Antioxidants. Really, really good stuff. I mean, and that’s what nature’s all about.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   You take the mold, or fungus, or yeast, whatever, in its natural form, and it can be very beneficial.

Matt:                     Well it is natural. I mean, if we have … What we’ve learned from the probiotic market as well, is you can use a strain as competitive exclusion to prevent another [inaudible 00:45:04]. I was looking for which probiotics might prevent, the only one that comes through with some decent data is saccharomyces again, the saccharomyces boulardii, which makes sense as a colonizing yeast. You know, because it’ll actually compete, to a certain degree, with other fungi and molds. It’s more on that side of the immunity.

Steve:                   Yeah. So statins typically work by knocking out this enzyme here, of course, and I’ll hold it up the camera there.

Matt:                     That’s HMG-CoA reductase.

Steve:                   That’s it, and of course, that if you take that with the food, you still get that inhibition, but you get the beneficial side effects of the food.

Matt:                     Yeah. That’s cool, right.

Steve:                   I mean, I priced them at Coles, $5 for a packet of the oyster mushrooms, which will give you a dose of, a very good dose, of Lovastatin, and it’s not toxic.

Matt:                     I love them too.

Elizma:                  Yeah, they’re yummy.

Matt:                     Yeah, they are, they’re good ones, man. I’m a mushroom guy.

Steve:                   You gotta remember the first Japanese doctor that was looking into all these sort of stuff, he was first, he first extracted the mushroom.

Matt:                     Aren’t mushrooms mold and fungi?

Steve:                   Yeah. You see right there, they’re good and bad.

Matt:                     Are they’re going to grow inside me?

Steve:                   Probably not the tree mushrooms. I don’t think they will. I think they …

Matt:                     The reason why I say that, how many … You know when people used to come in for an Anti-Candida diet, and they’re told they can’t eat mushrooms.

Elizma:                  I know.

Steve:                   Oh.

Matt:                     I’ll go, “Why?”-

Elizma:                  I know, I don’t know where that comes from.

Matt:                     They say, “I’ve got problem with fungus.”

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     It’s just like …

Elizma:                  Someone started a rumor there, and then it just seemed to became, like a thing.

Matt:                     It’s just is around, yeah.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   It’s crazy, isn’t it? So, you know, these things are-

Matt:                     Because other mushrooms, a Reishi mushroom again, is really good at knocking this little sucker off. You’re saying oyster mushrooms are really good for us, as well.

Steve:                   Oh, yeah.

Matt:                     There are other things. So, you talked about flavonols, and that sort of stuff before. There’s a heap of data on luteolin as well, and quercetin. Now luteolin and quercetin, they’re always used to inhibit histamine release, like good anti-allergy, good anti-inflammatories. Really good at blocking off the release of these inflammatory compounds, not just blocking histamine receptors. It’s actually going to stabilize the mast cells, stabilize immune system, work on that mucosal immunity.

Matt:                     Interestingly, we mentioned before the liberation of nutrients, as our hormones and everything could be associated with it. Both quercetin and luteolin, very powerful estrogen receptor blockers as well. You see in nature, you see these little patterns where it’s got multiple functions on the one thing. Luteolin and quercetin, you’re get in a lot of the … Luteolin is [inaudible 00:47:22], and that sort of stuff, which is one of my favorite sources cause it’s one I can remember.

Matt:                     Then also you’ll find a lot of these other things in the peels, and the skins, in the outer leaves of all your herds.

Elizma:                  Yeah, vegetables have to be fresh.

Matt:                     But you’ve got to get fresh. So you get them in all your salads, you get them in your apple peels, all that sort of stuff, but it’s got to be fresh, because they’re the exact places where you get the mold if it’s not fresh.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     I wonder if that’s why they’re there.

Elizma:                  Could be?

Matt:                     See nature’s so smart.

Steve:                   Smart.

Elizma:                  Yeah, because we said that the flavanoids, if the flavonoids are there then the mold doesn’t inhibit the detoxification process.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Elizma:                  So yeah, like nature just has it figured out.

Matt:                     Yeah. It’s clever, eh?

Steve:                   It is clever, because you know, when you eat them … I’m not being biased here. If you take red yeast rice, or one of those other molds, compare it to the drugs, it works better because it has a plethora. The side effects are beneficial. You know, they help your [crosstalk 00:48:13]-

Matt:                     Beneficial.

Steve:                   Beneficial.

Matt:                     I like the way you say that.

Steve:                   Yeah, I kind of spit it out a bit like that.

Steve:                   So, you know, this is the way lovastatin came from.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   If you taking a natural-

Matt:                     Is that also beneficial?

Steve:                   It’s a very beneficial.

Matt:                     Well, lovastatin.

Steve:                   Lovastatin.

Matt:                     Oh.

Steve:                   Well, if it’s in the red yeast rice.

Matt:                     Now, so we clean the house.

Steve:                   Yes.

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     We flush everything out.

Steve:                   Leave the windows open.

Matt:                     Maybe we can load up on some saccharomyces boulardii, if we’re going to take a probiotic to colonize our mucosa, it may as well be the one that might block it a bit.

Elizma:                  Yep.

Matt:                     We need to have lots of flavonols already in, because you can’t wait until you’re fully loaded up because it won’t work. So we drink lots of good coffee. Is that what you said?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     I’m sure you said that.

Steve:                   Polyphenols.

Elizma:                  There is polyphenols in coffee, it was protective, that’s right.

Matt:                     Polyphenols in coffee, we talked about all those other, the frankincense, the Reishi, the myrrh. They’re all things that we can do to protect against the mold.

Elizma:                  Yep.

Matt:                     But most of it’s looking at your environment surely.

Steve:                   Yeah, yeah.

Elizma:                  Most of it is definitely environment, and something else, it’s also avoiding gluten if you haven’t done so yet. I found a lot of anti-gliadin antibodies in the people who are susceptible to mold biotoxin illness. Part of that is because a lot of people who are very susceptible to mold biotoxin issues have the celiac genes, the HLA …

Matt:                     Yeah, right. [crosstalk 00:49:35], or whatever.

Elizma:                  DRDQ genes.

Steve:                   DR …

Matt:                     No, the DR one.

Elizma:                  DRDQ.

Steve:                   DR2 and DR4, DR6.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Elizma:                  So, that’s one aspect, the other aspect is also that that mold biotoxins will decrease a neuropeptide called MSH, which I think is melanocyte-stimulating hormone.

Steve:                   Yeah, it is.

Elizma:                  If I’m right. MSH is the compound that protects our mucous membranes. It’s our first line of defense, so if that’s not there then we get the gut dysbiosis. We get the leaky gut, leaky cells, leaky blood brain barrier, and that’s going to make any gluten issues worse as well. So, I find that a lot of-

Matt:                     Gluten does that as well, doesn’t it? It’s like gluten itself, by the zonulin, and the tight junction proteins that do the leaky gut wall. Even if you’re not celiac, or mad cow, you just get the gluten will go through, up the pathways in your gut and your brain.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Is that how you get more exposure?

Elizma:                  Yeah, I guess you’d get more exposure, you’d get more of those proteins being transferred from the gut environment into the blood environment. It’ll just make an immune response worse.

Matt:                     So having a leaky gut wall, those people that are constantly having some sort of inflammation in through the gut, and they’re deficient in nutrients like zincs and that sort of stuff, they get intestinal permeability. You’re going to react so much worse.

Elizma:                  Yes. Yeah.

Matt:                     We know that they have more allergies and more infections.

Elizma:                  Yep.

Matt:                     I just didn’t … I never really looked enough at mold, even though I’ve had some really full on cases in our clinic. But I think it’s because really early I had some really full on ones, they were full on infections. Anything less than that, I’m thinking, nah.

Elizma:                  Well it wasn’t a very … it’s only recently that it’s actually gotten more recognition, or we’re more aware of it.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Elizma:                  You’re right, like 20 years ago it had to be a very clear mold case for us to even look at it.

Matt:                     But we never had air cons in school. We didn’t have air conditioners everywhere in those days either. Like, I was telling Steve over, for the reason why I had that stuff over the floor, because growing up in North Queensland most of our houses have gaps between the floorboards to let the breeze through.

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     You know, because most of the time it’s hot. So, then in the couple of weeks of winter you use a blanket.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     But, so yeah, I think … what about this Sick-Building syndrome? You know, maybe the overpopulation density, yeah, everything’s dark.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Like, I go to Sydney, even Sydney’s a very small city in the big scheme of things. But when I’m in Sydney it’s always so dark. It’s so dark between all of Sydney, everywhere, it’s always dark.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Matt:                     You know, so …

Elizma:                  There’s certain areas, like I know, because I go to the US a lot and treat people there. Depending on which areas you’re in, like I know that North Carolina, where I go quite a bit, the houses there have the attics, and they have the basements. It gets very, very moldy in those kinds of conditions. So in a sense, the Queenslanders are actually really good because they have the air flow. Unless you board it up, and then all of that.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Elizma:                  So, yeah, it’s definitely, depending on the environment and things like that you live in.

Steve:                   It’s of quite amazing, because there’s the top 11 sources of indoor air pollutants here, and the top one is mold and bacteria.

Matt:                     Oh, there you go.

Elizma:                  There you go.

Steve:                   Then you’ve got things like, furnishing materials, chemical fumes, chemicals from cleaning products. The way pollutants that come inside, obviously cigarettes, smoke, animal hair, dust mites, combustion gases. Carbon monoxide, a dangerous one. Gases like radon from …

Matt:                     Number 12 is [inaudible 00:52:54] visited.

Steve:                   Oh, yes.

Matt:                     The stench. That ain’t no mycotoxin.

Steve:                   He’s on quite a high protein diet, isn’t he?

Matt:                     High protein, high sulfur.

Steve:                   Ow, that’s not a good combination.

Matt:                     I think he actually eats farts. It’s just … that’s the only way I can explain it. He must directly eat fat and release fart.

Elizma:                  Oh, boy.

Steve:                   Here’s the crazy thing about, you know mold and that sort of thing. If it’s living all over us anyway, and it is living on us, it can be a symbiotic too. It can be just there, and be healthy for us.

Matt:                     Yeah, like it commends it.

Steve:                   No, like-

Matt:                     Like, a coating, and stop others coming in.

Steve:                   Yeah, and it fit really adversely. A lot like propionibacterium acne, it causes acne, the bacteria. It leaves on everybody’s skin. Everybody, all the time.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah.

Steve:                   It becomes a problem when you have surgery, because you cut open the skin, and the P. acne get in there and causes … that’s one of the most common infections you get in hospitals.

Matt:                     Is there any … apart from the penicillin, and the statins and that. Oh, and the red yeast rice, I suppose. Is there any other … Do you guys know of any other traditional …

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     Shilajit could be another example of where we might supplement with certain mold, because shilajit’s basically compost, and postbiotic compounds, that dirt from here. What were you going to say? Is there …

Elizma:                  Oh, were you looking for more things to help?

Matt:                     Yeah. No, no, I was looking … I was wondering, I was just curious. So what my brain was leaping to was, is there any probiotic forms of mold? Is there any form of models that we could have good ones inside us?

Steve:                   Well, there’s good foods that are molds.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   There’s plenty of mushrooms that are healthy for you.

Matt:                     Well, like if I eat my blue cheeses and-

Steve:                   You’ve got to be careful how to say that, the shiitaki mushrooms is a good one.

Matt:                     I call them shit cakes.

Steve:                   Oh right, okay.

Matt:                     Yeah, they taste like shit cakes.

Steve:                   Yeah, yeah. They’re not very flavorful, in my opinion.

Matt:                     Well, they’re very flavor. They bloody taste like shit cakes.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     They’re horrible.

Steve:                   Beck likes him.

Matt:                     Slimy, bloody [crosstalk 00:54:41] things.

Steve:                   Ugh, don’t …

Matt:                     Anyhow, they’re very good for you.

Steve:                   Yeah, very good.

Matt:                     What were you going to say?

Elizma:                  Well, I was going to say, because we are talking about food and all of that kind of stuff, they are actually some foods that protects us against the carcinogenic effects of aflatoxins, because aflatoxins can be very carcinogenic. Apparently, carrots, parsnips, parsley and celery, will actually protect us against the carcinogenic effects of the aflatoxins.

Matt:                     Aflatoxins. So what’s some examples of aflatoxins? Is that the … that’s the peanuts and all that sort of stuff?

Elizma:                  Yeah, peanuts, it’s mainly food exposure.

Matt:                     Yeah, legumes, and nuts.

Elizma:                  Yeah, grapes.

Matt:                     Especially fresh stuff, and rices, and that.

Elizma:                  Lots of fruits and stuff like that. That’s where we get it. Very, it can definitely be very, very damaging.

Matt:                     So it was parsnips, parsley, celery …

Elizma:                  And carrots.

Steve:                   Carrots.

Elizma:                  So a lot of the stuff that you’d put in soups and stuff.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Elizma:                  You know?

Matt:                     Yeah, that’s cool. A lot of stuff that’s around at the moment. We get … I get one of those weekly deliveries of random vegetables. They come each week, whatever’s in season. It’s carrot season. Oh, man, so much … I’m pretty much … not only am I seeing in the dark, but I’m glowing in the dark. [inaudible 00:55:51]. But anyhow, carrots and bloody kale. They give whole boxes full of carrot and kale. Anyhow …

Steve:                   Now, Elizma, you got some great results there.

Elizma:                  Oh, yes.

Steve:                   I really want to see these, the before and after. You know how you see the before and after photo of someone’s ugly, then they’re beautiful, or whatever.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Steve:                   I want to see the ugly and the beautiful, and the results.

Elizma:                  Unfortunately, my printer is not a color printer. So it’s not as clear as what I wanted it to be, but I’ve got the name of the test results, and as you can see on this one, the ochratoxin is quite high, which is the second one from the top. So you’ll see there’s a black bar that sort of shows that. I think with this one also we had some effort aflatoxin and we had some gliotoxin there. Then on the second page we also … we had very high levels of … and I can’t pronounce this, chaetomium globosum, which is a …

Matt:                     It sounds fantastic. I think my glass just lifted off the table when you said that. [inaudible 00:56:49] leviosa.

Elizma:                  This is near the bottom.

Steve:                   Yeah, yeah, look how high it is.

Elizma:                  You can see they are 457, and it should be 22 [inaudible 00:56:58].

Steve:                   Yeah, it’s incredible, isn’t it?

Elizma:                  So really high levels.

Matt:                     Moldy bugger.

Elizma:                  We used natural stuff for this latest, so not a lot of the medication treatments. We tested it, and there’s still a little bit of work for us to do, but you can see the ochratoxin has lowered a lot.

Matt:                     Good.

Elizma:                  The aflatoxin is gone.

Steve:                   Wow.

Matt:                     Wow.

Elizma:                  We had this one appear a little bit, which I’m not quite sure why, but the gliotoxin is gone as well.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Elizma:                  Then also the chaetomium globosum is completely gone as well.

Steve:                   That’s awesome.

Elizma:                  So a little bit more things to do, but that is all through natural treatments.

Matt:                     And in what time frame?

Elizma:                  That was within four months.

Matt:                     Yeah, wow. That is crazy, yeah. That case of mine with that pulmonary hemosiderosis, we fixed up a lot of the weird, really acute, aggressive stuff, really quickly. Years later that other stuff would have been going around.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Yeah. You can break the cycle relatively quickly, but to get a resolution like that’s pretty impressive. Now you said you treated it naturally, what sort of thing did you do?

Elizma:                  Well, obviously you have to … because remember that mold biotoxins, they disrupt the whole detoxification process, so you want to support detoxification. So I used things like glutathione and things like that.

Matt:                     So you support it?

Elizma:                  Support it.

Matt:                     So when we talk Nrf2 activators, Nrf2, when they’re activated, that’s like a gene activator. So, man, we’re in trouble, we need to protect ourselves.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Then it induces anti-inflammatory, and antioxidant protective mechanisms, and that sort of stuff. Ended up regulates our detoxification pathways by glutathione, and glucuronidation, and that sort of stuff. So, when you said before, these molds come in, you don’t get the Nrf2 activation necessarily, so we really got to support that.

Matt:                     So you use … so when you support a detoxification process, you’d use some stuff to activate the Nrf2, but at the same time you’d support the substrates, or the nutrients needed for Nrf2 to be possible. So that’s where you support the glutathione those sort of other detoxification.

Elizma:                  Glucuronidation. So all the phase two liver detoxification processes, you support that. You get binders in, and there’s of binders on the market that you can choose from. I know in the traditional medical model they use the cholestyramine, but that can have some side effects. So you use binders, because you need binders to bind to those mold … the mycotoxins.

Matt:                     So binder, so we’re talking about like zeolite. What about charcoals or clay, and that sort of stuff?

Elizma:                  You can use any of those. Like, some people like to use the bentonite clays. Some will like to use the zeolite clay. Some will like to use the charcoals.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Elizma:                  I think even modified citrus pectin is another one that some people like to use.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah, right.

Elizma:                  As long as you use a binder.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Elizma:                  Then, you know, support an the Nrf2 receptors, as we talked about with using dim, and things like that. So, obviously there was other stuff going on for this lady as well, but we just supported all of that and that improved her. Because one of the things you have to be …

Matt:                     What about the house? Like, did you go, and do you give them a whole heap of instructions, to open the windows and stuff?

Elizma:                  Yes. Yeah, she was convinced there was no mold. But I say to her, “Go look here. Go look here. Go look here. Go look here.” She found it. They subsequently removed the mold in the house, because sometimes it’s as simple as just ripping up a carpet, you know? Or you find it underneath the pillows, or underneath the mattresses. You just have to go and look for it.

Elizma:                  So, she found it and …

Matt:                     I’m freaking out a little bit here.

Elizma:                  The interesting thing is, she said she would never have thought, you know? Now it’s like, everything makes sense. So it’s just a matter of doing that.

Elizma:                  One of the things that that you have to be careful with in terms of treating mold, or detoxing mold, so to speak, is you just have to remember that if you start mobilizing mold, or mycotoxins I should say, out of their body. As it moves from the tissues into the bloodstream, and you have a lower level of mycotoxin in the tissue and high levels of it in the blood, it will trigger those immune inflammatory responses. That’s often why people feel a lot worse. Where you start … There’s ways of getting around that, but that’s one of the things that one has to look out for.

Matt:                     And literally systemic. I mean, it’s in your blood, so that you almost feel septic. You get generalized fatigue, and inflammatory sort of stuff, and weird things like acute phase responses by the liver. Sticky, shitty circulation, and that.

Elizma:                  That’s right, you get the coagulation, or there … Because this how mold biotoxins can work, it can go either way. It can increase coagulation, and it can also decrease coagulation where you get more of the bleeding from the mucus membranes as well.

Matt:                     And the lymphatic burden, all the lymph. So all that extra cellular fluid, and all that lymph just …

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Yeah, right.

Steve:                   There are six things you can do to get rid of mold out of your house.

Matt:                     Six?

Steve:                   Yes. Or seven actually, there’s a seventh one. The first one is getting rid of moisture, and you can do that by, of course, increasing sunlight. So during the days, like today here it’s fine on the gold coast, windows open.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   You know, air going through. Mold spores, clear them up, and you can clear them up with other things, but basically you can use a low pH substance like vinegar, half water. Food source, make sure your food sources … you know, there’s no sort of …

Matt:                     Fresh and clean.

Steve:                   You know, yeah, that sort of thing. Oxygen, a steady supply of oxygen, and a vital part of growth, so make sure that everything’s aired out. That’s the most important thing. Optimal temperature, so make sure that you make sure there’s diversity in temperature within your house. A lot of people leave the thermostat on all day, and just keep the temperature of like this. Make sure it goes like that, because mold dies at extreme temperatures.

Matt:                     Oh, okay.

Steve:                   So, make your house heats up and cools down.

Matt:                     You said extreme, acid and that, oh acid will kill it too.

Steve:                   Yeah, acid kills it.

Matt:                     Things like, is there like … We wouldn’t get too much mold. We shouldn’t get mold out of things like the kimchi, and the sauerkraut, and all that sort of stuff?

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Because the acid?

Steve:                   Probably acid, yeah.

Matt:                     You’re killing it all off or something like that.

Elizma:                  And it should be … unless you make it yourself. I used to make my own sauerkraut, and sometimes I’d let it sit a little bit too long in Queensland heat, and you’d get the mold growing on top.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   My wife’s [inaudible 01:02:44] probably had my little bit of mold in it, so I went in there with the vinegar and the face mask. It was dark, the house was dark everything. I said, “You’ve got to open up the windows.” “No.” So, it’s like … But I went there and cleaned up the mold. So I used a little patch, it hasn’t come back at all.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   Just vinegar, a pH of three, that killed it.

Matt:                     Yeah, right.

Steve:                   It won’t rot your hands away, of course, just don’t get it in your eyes, it’s quite stingy. You don’t need gloves or anything.

Matt:                     It’s nice on fish and chips too.

Steve:                   That too.

Matt:                     I’m going that way. I moved away from the tomato sauce back to the vinegar with my fish and chips.

Steve:                   Yeah, and where you’re from you can put it on a sting too, when you get stung with the jellyfish up near [inaudible 01:03:20].

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   There you go, lots of benefits.

Matt:                     Most of the time, we used to do that. We always go fishing, and Tom would always take the vinegar in case we get stung by a box jellyfish or something.

Elizma:                  Does that stuff really work?

Matt:                     No idea, never used it.

Elizma:                  Okay.

Matt:                     But what we used to do, is we used to always get stuck, because our car or boat would break down and we’d end up being stuck somewhere. We used to just marinate our bait in the vinegar and eat it, when we were really hungry.

Elizma:                  Marinate the bait?

Matt:                     Oh mate, when you are hungry …

Elizma:                  But the bait would be raw, wouldn’t it?

Matt:                     It’s amazing, yep. Then you put it in the vinegar and cook it.

Steve:                   Yeah, you can cook king fish in-

Matt:                     That’s my survival tip. Anyone that’s in North Queensland stuck in a boat, you’ve got to have vinegar there.

Steve:                   Acids cook things.

Matt:                     Should be able to catch a fish.

Elizma:                  Oh yeah, I know, like …

Steve:                   [crosstalk 01:04:01].

Elizma:                  I put acid on a lot of the raw meat-

Matt:                     Apparently you piss on it.

Elizma:                  -before I … before I cook it. Yeah, it almost browns the meat instantaneous.

Steve:                   Tenderize it.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Oh man, have you guys ever … My wife listens to this podcast, she hates me when I say this, and I say it all the time just to piss her off.

Steve:                   Oh, here we go.

Matt:                     Have you ever done kiwifruit in a marinade? You know, marinate your meat with kiwifruit? I’m serious. I’m not even joking.

Elizma:                  Oh, yeah. No, no, you’re right. I think even pineapple, pineapple as well.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Elizma:                  So, any of those acidic fruits you can.

Matt:                     It eats the gristle, but you can’t do it for too long. I put a whole topside roast in this thing, and I like left it for like half an hour, because you’re supposed to do like, 10 minutes or something.

Elizma:                  Just liquid?

Matt:                     Then I went to pick it up to turn it, and it just fully broke in half.

Steve:                   Wow.

Matt:                     Like, it just digests all the gristle.

Elizma:                  Wow.

Matt:                     Then you cook it, and it’s so tender.

Steve:                   So mold; it’s good, it’s bad, it’s ugly, it’s harmless. This is what we’ve talked about today. If it’s in your house, it’s bad. Okay? If you take it as a drug, it can be good. If it’s lying in your garden, it could be innocuous. So, this is the mystery of mold, but once it gets in you, and causes harm, it causes major problems. That’s what today’s message is all about.

Steve:                   So we’ve got here …

Matt:                     Oh, cool.

Steve:                   That was all right, I was trying to sum it up.

Matt:                     That was bloody brilliant. Now let’s do some FAQs.

Steve:                   Oh, lets do some FAQs. Before we do an FAQ, I just want to talk about a Gut Right review. It’s say, two words, “Just amazing.”

Matt:                     That’s a good one.

Steve:                   “Thanks ATP for this amazing product. I’ve watched all your information on YouTube. The first four days rocked me a bit, but I bounced back on day six of the 10 day plan. I’ll be reordering, along with many more of your products. Thanks, Katrina.” So, there you go.

Matt:                     Oh, that’s nice.

Steve:                   How awesome is that. Now, next on our wonderful podcast here is a fairly long question, so sit back, enjoy. It says, “Hi, ATP team, I have so much love for you guys. I was introduced to your podcast at the start of this year, and I have learnt so much from all your … from all of you. Currently, I live in London and I love hearing the Aussie accent over the podcast, it makes me feel like I’m not too far from home.”

Steve:                   “I have a few things I would love you to get your opinion on, if that’s okay? I really want to take my health to the next step prior to conceiving.” Okay. “I’ll let you know the facts, my diet is very good. I don’t have dairy, and avoid gluten, grains, and sugar.” I love that. “I do like my decaf coffee. My diet has been getting cleaner, and cleaner for the past few years. I’ve recently done your Gut Right protocol, which I loved.”

Matt:                     Wow.

Steve:                   “I noticed some big changes in my skin in particular. I’m currently doing the maintenance one spoon per day. However the last few weeks after the protocol, I’ve noticed these blemishes starting to come back around my chin region. I’m very conscious of my gut and liver health, since why I eat so clean. Lots of plants, brassica vegetables, fats, clean protein sources, and I love my broth.”

Steve:                   “I’ve also addressed my toxic load as best I can at this stage. Clean makeup, and beauty products, non toxic washing liquids, and avoiding plastic where possible. But I live in London, the pollution here is pretty bad. I was on the oral contraceptive pill for nearly six years, from 18 to 23. Came off over three and a half years ago now. I’m now 26.”

Steve:                   “I was told I have polycystic ovaries and estrogen dominance. Saliva test from [inaudible 01:07:16]. I’ve been working on healing my fertility for sometime since coming off the pill. However, I’m still experiencing longer cycles. The last few have been longer than 35 days. I’ve been feeling it might have something to do with my thyroid function, because I track my cycle with BB T, which is a temperature test, and my follicular phase temperatures are all below 36.4 degrees. I also have quite a long follicular phase, ovulating around the mid twenties; day 21, 22, 23, sometimes later.”

Steve:                   “I think it has been either thyroid or my stress. I constantly have freezing cold feet, toes and fingertips. Have that since I was child, which also makes me think about my thyroid. My luteal phase is always 16 days, so I believe this means I have enough progesterone.”

Steve:                   “Over the last … over the years since stopping the pill my debilitating periods have improved. However, the last few cycles I’ve experienced pain, faintness, and vomiting. Even with the Gut Right my digestion somehow slow a bit, a bit slow. Regularly after I have eaten a good quality meal I wake up in the morning with a knot in my gut. It’s been ongoing for some time, and I’m keen to shift this as soon as possible. I split my digestion through eating warm cook meals, and I have ACV every morning to improve my stomach acid.” That’s apple cider vinegar, I guess. “I also get a rash on the outside aspects of my arms. I’ve had an organic acid test, as well as last year, which showed candida, no parasites, and nutrient deficiencies.”

Steve:                   “I’ve been losing weight naturally, slowly, and toning my body through lifestyle, nutrition, and exercise. I’m in the yard, doing walking for my stress, nothing too high intensity, and hopefully this means my hormones are getting back on track. But I am holding my remaining weight, and some settle at tops my thighs. I’ve grown so much in my body confidence, but I’m ready to let this excess fat storage go. I think it’s my estrogen.”

Steve:                   “I thought I’d also mention each morning for a few hours I feel like I’m constantly clearing my throat and sometimes mucous does come up. I’m not sure why this is. I’m currently taking your four pillars and have been for weeks. I was wondering if there’s anything else that you could recommend.”

Steve:                   “I’m also on a functional medicine, prenatal and magnesium. Is it too much to take multi food as well as functional medicine, great prenatal? I’m not sure how much is too much. I’ve previously been on carnitine heavy metal binder, because of my working around radiation.” Wow. “Even [inaudible 01:09:44] and Omega-3’s.”

Steve:                   “I’m studying to be a woman’s coach. I’m planning on working with women, particularly through fertility and preconception. I hope that I will be able to recommend some of your products to my clients in future. That’s why I want to learn as much as I can about this field. I’m wanting to conceive in the next six to 18 months, so I want to be at my best health. Though my health is always improving, I feel like I’ve been working so hard on it, but I’m a little stuck with my gut and cycle. I hope to attend one of your events soon and meet you in person one day. You are an inspiration and I’m so grateful to you.”

Steve:                   “P.S. I would love any more information you have regarding preconception care. It is a real passion of mine, and I want to be able to help as many people, as I can optimize their chances of conceiving naturally and create healthy little babies. Excited for your response, Megan.” That’s a biggie.

Matt:                     That’s a good one though.

Steve:                   I know, that’s huge.

Matt:                     Yeah, she’s right there, like she’s listing off quite a few symptoms of the thyroid sort of stuff, or at least iodine, and maybe zinc, selenium deficiency. So, I would use the T432 plus or something, just to get the iodine, zinc, selenium up, and make sure. Because you get an iodine deficiency, it even changes the architecture in your cells to be more predisposed to estrogen dominance. So, you top up that, and it can actually change a lot of those sort of factors, especially talking about that follicular phase, the way it’s going. So, I’d use the T432 plus for that.

Matt:                     In regards to the other preconception care, stay on that prenatal vitamin. You don’t need to overdose. You just want to make sure you’re not deficient in things. Also too, you might want to have a look at vitamin D. Vitamin D and vitamin E one …

Matt:                     To answer the question about other things that might be suitable for preconception care one thing that I did differently in my clinic, and one thing, I don’t think enough people focus on enough when it comes to fertility is mucosal immunity. Because if you’ve got a primed immune system at the site of the mucosa, the sperms getting smashed before it gets in there, cause that’s not yours. You got mucosal immunities over reactive, and then you get a fertilized embryo trying to embed and move to the next phase, the immune system can reject that.

Matt:                     So a lot of people that have signs of an over reactive immune system, or signs of dysbiosis, or candida, or urinary tract infections. Any signs that at the mucosa site, that the immune system is active with an anti infectious start offense. Not so much allergy. I don’t find … I think people predisposed to allergic symptoms like sneezing, high fever, rashes, that doesn’t seem to affect their fertility. People predisposed to autoimmunity, or dealing with current dysbiosis or infections, or recurrent urinary tract infections, they seem to have much more problems because your immune system is over reactive.

Matt:                     Now I don’t do anything crazy to suppress the immune system typically, but I know that if I get vitamin E levels over a thousand international units, your immune system at the mucosa is going to be less reactive. That’s where vitamin E was famous as the anti-sterility factor originally, because it used to suppress the immune system, and the mucosa, and let people have babies. Vitamin D does the same thing, and so does fish oils.

Matt:                     So I tell people, usually to load it up with nice clean EPA, DHAs and fish oils. Tell people you could use the Aurum oil to give a nice balance. So I’d use the Aurum oil, the T432 plus. Check your prenatal, it should have the vitamin D. Otherwise, if you are struggling with over-reactive immune system, you can add in that vitamin E and suppress it there. I’m always nervous when I look at signs … not nervous, but when I see signs of thyroid, potential thyroid or iodine deficiency, I don’t usually do a huge amount of stuff until I fix that first, because every cell and every function responds to that. But what, what do you recommend, Elizma? What else could we put in?

Elizma:                  No, I definitely agree with the thyroid. I mean, the thyroid functioning is extremely important in the first weeks of pregnancy, because you need thyroid function, metabolism for cell division, and energy and all of that kind of stuff.

Matt:                     And to not have a cretin.

Elizma:                  Yes. Yeah, but …

Matt:                     So cretinism is a baby who’s born with an iodine deficiency.

Elizma:                  That’s right, that’s right.

Matt:                     For the people out there that also getting [crosstalk 01:13:43].

Steve:                   Before you send the letters in, cretinism is a medical term.

Elizma:                  Well, it is. Low forward function is one of the most common reasons for miscarriage, early on in pregnancy. So, it’s definitely fix the thyroid first. Again, that could fix up so many other things. Love the fact that you’ve cleaned up your environment so well, you know, with your beauty products, and cleaning products. Your diet is really, you know, very low inflammatory diet, which is everything that you want to do there. Yeah, like Matt said, you did take Omega-3’s at some point, so get back onto the Omega-3’s. Just make sure that they are a nice clean source.

Elizma:                  At this point in time, obviously when you get ready for pregnant you don’t want to be taking any heavy metal binders or anything like that. Try and get your gut as healthy as possible. You know, if there was Candida markers on your organic acid test, you know, try and get that under control, because you’re gonna pass on your microbiome to your baby through the birthing process and now’s the time to get that right, so you can pass on all the the right stuff for your little one.

Matt:                     And it keeps that immune system primed.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Those Candida, they colonize the mucosa, and they are famous for colonizing the mucosa in the reproductive tract. So, if you’ve got signs of that, there’s a fair chance that mucosal immunity is going to be primed to a certain degree, and that will reduce your fertility to a certain degree, so look into those things.

Steve:                   Amazing, isn’t it? And you work around radiation, so iodine is extraordinarily beneficial for your thyroid around radiation. In fact, the most powerful a anti radiation pills are iodine pills.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   So, you know, you guys are right on with it, with the thyroid T432. Maybe, even though her preconception supplement would probably have iodine, I’m guessing.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   She could still do with more of it. So just the T432, we can send out to her.

Matt:                     T432 plus, yeah.

Elizma:                  The Aurum Oil.

Matt:                     And the Aurum Oil I reckon.

Steve:                   Aurum Oil, yeah.

Elizma:                  Yeah, definitely Aurum Oil.

Matt:                     Get those oils loaded up, the Aurum Oil and the T4 should be enough, eh? I wouldn’t do too much.

Steve:                   Okay.

Matt:                     I don’t like doing too much.

Elizma:                  No, no.

Matt:                     And be careful with metal binders too. A lot of people will take those things thinking it’s going to just keep us clean, but they often strip iron out. Iron deficiency is a major problem with thyroid, because if you are using a medal binder and you’re stripping out zinc, stripping out iron, then your thyroid’s going to be slow for that reason.

Steve:                   Yeah, that’s true.

Matt:                     Iron has got that TPO, I think iron’s an essential component of that thyroid for oxidize.

Elizma:                  Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Matt:                     You can’t actually make T4 for if you’re iron deficient.

Elizma:                  Iron is also needed for detoxification in all the mitochondrial enzymes, they all need iron.

Matt:                     Then the weird thing is, you get a low thyroid, you get low stomach acid, and then you can’t absorb iron and then you get a low thyroid. So you look into those, because there are some signs of that low stomach acid and poor digestion. So have a look, check your iron levels as well maybe.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Steve:                   Excellent.

Matt:                     We don’t have an iron supplement because I personally don’t need it.

Elizma:                  We only make supplements that Matt personally needs.

Matt:                     Oh no, the other directors too. Typically the whole company was built by, “Well we make this because we want it.” That’s why everything’s high quality, because everything’s made for us and our parents, and our children, and stuff like that. Then we let others play too.

Elizma:                  It’s true.

Steve:                   It’s true. Iron deficiency is very common in young women too, of course.

Elizma:                  Very common.

Matt:                     It is.

Steve:                   Like, incredibly common.

Steve:                   But that’s all we got time for guys. We have gone a bit over time actually.

Matt:                     Ah, whinge.

Steve:                   Whinge, whinge, whinge.

Matt:                     That’s Brook-o’s fault with her inappropriate comments about the kiwifruit.

Steve:                   Yes. Yeah, that’s it. At least we’re having fun today.

Matt:                     Thanks for having us.

Steve:                   You’ve laughed today a bit.

Elizma:                  Oh, absolutely. I’m starting to get into the whole banter.

Matt:                     Banter. Apparently, it’s …

Elizma:                  That’s right. I think I was a bit serious maybe in the beginning, and now it’s like, oh right, now I get it.

Steve:                   You can relax now.

Elizma:                  I get it. I’m supposed to laugh. All right, I get it.

Matt:                     Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve:                   I learned a lot today on mold. It’s incredible.

Elizma:                  It was fun, I really enjoyed it.

Steve:                   It seems like a boring [crosstalk 01:17:30].

Matt:                     I think I’m in the upside down, just personally. I think I’m full of mold.

Elizma:                  Well then, we should get you tested.

Matt:                     Let’s do it. Hey, let’s do it.

Elizma:                  Let’s do it.

Matt:                     We’ll do it as a little case study, and we’ll write it up. Let’s test for mold.

Steve:                   All right guys, well have a good day and we’re going to be talking about autism down the track, which relates a little bit to mold. So, it’s a bit of a little … a tiny bit of a segue there. Did you like that?

Matt:                     I did, Steve. It wouldn’t be the same without a segue.

Steve:                   It’s just a fluke.

Matt:                     Master segue.

Steve:                   Yeah, absolutely.

Matt:                     If he was a superhero he’d be Master Segue.

Steve:                   Master Segue. All right, well say goodbye to everyone.

Matt:                     Bye, everyone.

Steve:                   Bye from Master Segue.

Elizma:                  Bye-bye.

Steve:                   See you guys.

Speaker 3:           Thanks for listening. And remember, question everything, well except what we say.