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Episode 21 – Transdermal Delivery Systems



Welcome to the ATP Project: Episode 21 – Transdermal.

Today, Matt and I discuss the benefits of Transdermal delivery of ingredients:
• Break down of how it works and why it can be superior to other forms of delivery systems such as oral, sublingual and intravenous.
• How it delivers nutrients through the skin and the benefits of utilising penetration enhancers.
• Pulling apart Bro science and putting any ingredient into a transdermal.
• FAQs on Sleep and Cramping.
Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start.

Welcome to the ATP Project. I’m your host Jeff Doidge and Matt, as always:
Matt: G’day.

Jeff: Transdermals Matt, let’s get straight into it.

Matt: Yeah, cool.

Jeff: So, transdermals interestingly—tell us what are Transdermals? Can you explain it?

Matt: Transdermal, also referred to as topical, often they’re either cosmetics or drugs that we apply to the skin to penetrate through the skin and access tissue underneath; that’s what a Transdermal is, it penetrates past the skin to get to tissue underneath.

Jeff: But, not obviously everything is Transdermal, so how does it actually get through the skin?

Matt: Well, there are a variety of different ways. Again, we always talk about your intended purpose and what your therapeutic target is, and whether it is the surface of the skin or whether it’s the various layers underneath or trying to access the systemic bloodstream to deliver a compound all over the body.
The reason why we would use the skin as a route to access peripheral tissue is to avoid the hurdles associated with oral delivery, and even intravenous isn’t that flash, everything’s got it’s…

Jeff: Pros and cons.

Matt: Yeah, pros and cons. For example; when you take something orally your digestive juices, organisms in your gut, they’ll all play a part as to how much of that product is actually available. Then what happens is your first pass metabolism, by your liver, may process most of that stuff and eliminate it before it gets a chance to be released into the bloodstream. They can bypass that gut with under the tongue, sublingual, which is troches and those sorts of lozenges, they can actually get into the bloodstream and bypass the liver, or suppository style. You know those pineapple things that you do?

Jeff: No, I can’t manage them. I mean if the doctor or someone is prescribing you medication then that’s, obviously, going to be last on the list with most people. Well, you’d think!

Matt: Yeah, yeah, well horses for courses.

Jeff: So Matt, the different delivery of getting medication, and I’m talking about broad medication, right from pharmaceuticals through to herbal and all the rest of it, amino acids and what have you. Most people understand commonly consuming through oral things like—even food and macronutrients and things like that, obviously that makes sense.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: As far as vitamins and minerals, I have heard of some people doing intravenous vitamins and minerals.

Matt: Well, intravenous is cool because, again, it bypasses the digestive tract to get the dose directly to the bloodstream, but then as soon as it’s in the bloodstream it’s again processing back through to the liver and the kidneys and that sort of stuff anyway, but at least it gets a chance to access tissue prior to the liver and kidneys and the liver getting a chance to eliminate it.

Jeff: So, in terms then of troches, just quickly while we’re talking about delivery systems, is that going the same way but it’s using the small blood vessels under the tongue just to go straight in there?

Matt: Yeah, to get straight into the bloodstream and bypass that stomach and liver. So, as you see, they’re all just techniques to bypass the stomach and liver to get more of the active component into the bloodstream.
There are situations where you want the liver involved because it actually activates the compound.

Jeff: Right. Is there anything you can think of that…

Matt: Caffeine, for example. You’re actually better off having the caffeine go in through the stomach to convert it into its more active form, unless you’re using it in its active form already as part of a Transdermal or an oral.

Jeff: Which, obviously, is part of some of our products where we’ve got it in there as their active…

Matt: Yeah, that’s right.

Jeff: Any other forms of delivery, Matt? So, suppositories; just quickly, what’s the deal with that?

Matt: The same as—well, not the same as the mouth! But, the same concept, it’s bypassing the stomach, and you’ve got blood vessels there that can go straight out throughout the body and get the stuff out there without actually going via the liver first. So, it’s all about bypassing the hurdles of digestive juices, organisms, and then that ability for that liver to process and throw away the active ingredient before it gets a chance to—for example; Chrysin.

Chrysin is a very exciting compound, it’s a natural aromatase inhibitor that works really, really well if you can get it to the tissue. When you take it orally less than 5% of that Crhysin will get past the digestive tract and the liver, and it actually then is useless because it has to work in this fat tissue that’s less than 2mm under the skin. So, by the time that Chrysin has managed to get through the digestive tract and the liver that little bit that’s left is dispersed evenly throughout the body, but the active tissue that needs that Chrysin is located in an area of poor circulation, so you have to totally saturate the body with it so the anti-estrogen effects of Chrysin are affecting things like bone and organs and arteries before they get to affect the man boobs or the love handles. So, that’s why Transdermal Chrysin is a better option to get it to the site that you’re chasing.

Arginine is another classic example; oral Arginine, your liver and digestive tract actually gets—the more you take Arginine the better it gets at getting rid of it and converting it into toxic waste. And, the thing is, what do we want Arginine for? We want Arginine to increase circulation in areas of poor circulation. So, even once that 5% Arginine gets into your bloodstream to actually have a vasodilating effect it’s doing it in and around your internal organs not out in the periphery where you want.

Jeff: So, there are systemic other issues that are associated with it?

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: And, that’s not even talking about negative feedback loops and the body’s ability to become more efficient at actually getting rid of it.

Matt: Yeah, exactly. So, if you bypass those hurdles you can go directly to the site that has a poor blood flow and have the Arginine work in the area that you need it to open the arteries and drag the blood there.

Jeff: And, obviously, Matt, some of the exciting work that you’re doing with regards to exterior stimulation with the PROTOTYPE 8, and not just with body builders but also for people with…

Matt: Erectile dysfunction?

Jeff: No, I wasn’t going to say that.

Matt: Failure to orgasm?

Jeff: No, I wasn’t going to say that.

Matt: Oh, the diabetic foot ulcers?

Jeff: Yes, that’s it.

Matt: Oh, that’s nowhere near as much fun.

Jeff: Well probably. But, well, I can’t say it’s more important, it depends who you talk to, really, isn’t it?

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff: But no, that’s really exciting. There’s some great work that you’ve been doing, Matt, with some extremely intelligent people, nearly as intelligent as you, I would say.

Matt: Ha! A hell of a lot more than me, that’s why we hang out.

Jeff: Doctors and PhDs.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: But, Matt, Transdermal then; not everything, obviously, is going to be beneficial going through Transdermal. What is a good candidate then for Transdermal ingredients? Because you can’t just whack on anything and expect it to go through the skin.

Matt: No. The sort of things that are really good for Transdermal are things where you’ve got a distal site that you need to target…

Jeff: Distal site? Come on, Matt. I’m getting lots of emails saying, “Dumb it down.”

Matt: No, no, just like your feet. For example; if you’ve got a sore foot anti-inflammatory compounds that we may take internally they’ve got to go through all that stomach, liver, and all through everywhere before you can get some of it to your sore foot. So, using a pain relief liniment on your foot as opposed to a systemic pain reliever that may have irritation across gut membranes and all that sort of stuff, it makes more sense to apply it locally and have it work locally.

Stubborn areas; isolated pockets of fat, asymmetries, areas of poor rehabilitation, those areas are usually a weakness because the body’s forgotten about them or doesn’t know they’re there they may have a very poor circulation. So, using oral medication to target areas that haven’t responded to diet, exercise, supplementation and medication is silly. I think the definition of insanity is doing the same thing every day expecting a different result.
So, with those sort of things, if you’ve got a stubborn area that hasn’t responded then using a Transdermal on that area can sometimes bring it back alive. For example; using a BLOCK E3 on love handles or man boobs or the lower back, a massive difference on changing the fat and fluid in that tissue, and it has long term effects, because you’ve suddenly reminded the body that there are these sections here that were totally—there’s no muscle mind connection at all.
SUBCUT the same thing. If you’ve got areas of weakness and asymmetries and parts of your body that just seem resistant to change you start applying the cream, things start happening.

Jeff: Well, I love some of the feedback that we’ve had on the PROTOTYPE 8 with people with injuries, wasted medial or something.

Matt: Yeah, like a failure. A common one is knee reconstruction, with a medial quad that just won’t engage after an old knee injury. You can apply the PROTOTYPE 8 specifically to the muscle that won’t engage as part of your warm up and watch it switch on and become symmetrical with the tissue around it, and all of a sudden you can watch how the joint changes because all of a sudden you’ve engaged the muscle fibres that weren’t even working.

Jeff: Next week we’re actually going to be interviewing Tony Freeman.

Matt: Yeah, cool.

Jeff: He’s coming in for a series of seminars here in Australia at the moment, and he’s got some great stories in terms of how he’s used PROTOTYPE 8 and some of the injuries and some of the things he’s been able to overcome by using it.

Matt: Yeah. That’s why with our athletes we love the guys that are experienced and know their bodies well enough to be able to help us with our products and teach people how to use them in different ways. I try not to tell them, but with people like Tony, it’s better just to give them the stuff, explain a bit of the concept of how it works, and let them decide how and when to use it.

Jeff: It’s a privilege to work with people like Tony, and for any listeners that don’t know who Tony Freeman is, Tony’s 49, I think, he’s getting on a bit, but he’s still one of the top class body builders in the world, competed on the Olympia Stage, absolutely and amazing athlete. And, as Matt says, it’s great working them because they’re so sensitive to change, if anything is working you can tell immediately because they’re like a finely tuned race horse, you know if something’s going to happen. Whereas, with the average population, sometimes it takes a little bit more to actually see it work.

Matt: Yeah. And, they measure everything.

Jeff: That’s right. I think, Matt, you were saying before, when we were talking about good ingredients and good things to use Transdermally you were talking about molecular weight?

Matt: Yeah. So, when we look at the skin—it’s a weird thing, the skin is our barrier that protects us from the outside environment, but it’s also a little micro pharmacy where it can actually take through—the amount of nutrients, molecules, organisms, everything that’s…

Jeff: Well Vitamin D, good stuff.

Matt: Yeah, well that’s happening under. But, the stuff that’s on the outside of the skin, even the minerals from dirt, and that’s why I do not shower. No, I do.

Jeff: I was going to say something, “Matt, you stink.”

Matt: No, it’s fantastic, it’s not stink, it’s culture.

Jeff: So, working in the garden you’re going to get more minerals?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You do actually bring these minerals through.

Jeff: Wow!

Matt: Well, for example; we know you bring poison in.

Jeff: Of course.

Matt: This is the weirdest thing. Over the years when you do a Transdermal you’ll find [00:12:20], and it’s smart because there’s been a lot of rubbish products out there making stupid claims.

Jeff: Ugh.

Matt: But, there’s a lot of people sceptical about the ability for Transdermals to do anything. And, ti’s quite funny when we talk to them about a Transdermal fat mobiliser or a Transdermal aromatase inhibitor and that sort of stuff, but they don’t have a problem—if I was to ask them to hold a handful of mercury for the rest of the day they’d probably think I’m crazy because they’d assume that poison is going to come and poison them.

Matt: They’ve got no problem with testosterone gels and testosterone cream, progesterone creams have been around for a long, long time with measurable…

Jeff: Oh yeah, but that’s because it’s year dot, and we’re talking the general population here.

Matt: Yeah. And, Voltaren creams are all cool. The best one is when people are sceptical about the body shaping serums. The weirdest thing is, I asked them why and they said, “There’s no way anything can get through the skin.” So, what I asked them to do is—we’ve got another product nicknamed Dragon’s Breath that can get a little bit warm as a pain reliever, and the funny thing is, they don’t believe things can penetrate through the skin, but they would not rub—well, they wouldn’t let me rub—maybe that’s the problem, they wouldn’t let me rub Dragon’s Breath into their testicles just to double check that it doesn’t go through the skin.

So, that’s the thing man, we all believe that we can be poisoned through our skin, we can get pain liniments and that sort of stuff can rub on the outside of our skin and our shoulder pain goes, and we all believe in the anti-inflammatory creams, and we all believe in the hormonal creams but when there’s someone talking about a cream that contains herbal ingredients all of a sudden it’s like freaking out. The pain liniment stuff is herbal, and it’s actually…

Jeff: Winter Green and all that sort of stuff.

Matt: Yeah. The molecular weight of those active ingredients doesn’t fit as nicely as some of the other herbs. If you have a look at the skin, there’s three main ways things can penetrate through the skin. The outside of your skin under a microscope, that stratum corneum, I think it’s called, it’s like a brick wall, that’s what it looks like under a microscope, so you’ve got the bricks and then you’ve got the mortar; the bricks are pretty much dead skin cells and layers of stuff coming through. The gaps between those bricks is oily water kind of tissue. Anything with enough oil and water solubility, and a particular molecular weight, from about one to 800 molecular weight, will penetrate through the mortar, so it will run between the layers of the brick. So, anything of a certain size that’s fat and water soluble will go through, so testosterone and progesterone, those sort of things we know go through, they go through quite easily.

The funny thing is, we make the product PROTOTYPE A that contains phytoecty sterones, a very similar compound to progesterone, testosterone, it’s another sterone. The molecular weight of phytoecty sterones are almost exactly the same, slotting right between testosterone and progesterone, so the absorption of our phytoecty sterones is just as effective as a testosterone and progesterone.

Things like Arginine and that sort of stuff get absorbed really well, and it’s an important point to understand, a lot of things can get through that stratum corneum if they’re the right size and they’re soluble. What the problem is, where it goes from there. For example; underneath the stratum corneum is what’s called the viable epidermis, but what it is, it’s just a spongy layer of collagen and connective tissue, that’s the spongy stuff that hides the wrinkles and hides the lumps and bumps in cellulite; the thicker that layer is the less you see from underneath the skin. So, some ingredients easily get absorbed through that top stratum corneum but they’re utilised by the viable epidermis, so they don’t go past that.

So, things like Carnitine, you know how we look at using a Transdermal Carnitine for fat burning…

Jeff: I was going to ask you about that, yeah.

Matt: A few people have been asking us about the Transdermal Carnitine, because it kind of makes sense, if you’re making a Transdermal fat burner–Carnitine orally works as a good fat burner so in theory it should work. But, the problem is, Carnitine is really good for improving the thickness of skin.

Jeff: Really?

Matt: Yeah, so it helps to improve dermal collagen and the sponginess, so it will actually thicken the skin, which actually reduces muscle definition. Some studies show that it can make the orange peel skin on cellulite look better, but it does that by thickening the dermis, it does nothing to the tissue under it, it doesn’t get past the viable epidermis. There’s no bloodstream at all in the viable epidermis.

Jeff: So, I’m thinking, from a marketing point of view, let’s bring out a face cream with Carnitine in it.

Matt: Oh yeah, if you brought out a face cream with Carnitine in it, it’s good, it’s a good anti-wrinkle, but if you made a Transdermal fat burner or something like that…

Jeff: It’s not going to work.

Matt: For example; with our athletes we want them to have no skin, we want them to have…

Jeff: Yeah, Tony was talking about that.

Matt: We want them thin, thin, skin. We want their skin think like paper so you can see all the muscles underneath and everything underneath. We don’t want to thicken that skin up because it reduces your muscle definition.

Glucosamine, for example. You know they make Glucosamine arthritis creams?

Jeff: A lot do.

Matt: Yeah, the same thing. Well, the way Glucosamine works is, it makes Hyaluronic Acid, which is a honeycomb structure that puffs up your collagen, it gives a bit more bounce to cartilage, but that’s what your dermis is, it loves that stuff man. So, if you put glucosamine in the first thing it does is it thickens up your skin.

Jeff: I can tell, all the women listening to this right now are going, “ATP, when are you bringing out a Carnitine Glucosamine face cream?”

Matt: Carnitine, Glucosamine, yeah. Yeah, that’s right.

Jeff: The funny thing is, actually you do have some formulations, because you and Mai-Lan…

Matt: Yeah, yeah, Mai-Lan makes the best.

Jeff: Especially Mai-Lan knows all about that.

Matt: Yeah, she makes brilliant ones, and she puts a lot of that stuff in it, actually. It’s funny. But anyway, we digress.

Jeff: We’re getting distracted. But, I can tell, there’s going to be a lot of emails going, “I’d like to be a guinea pig for this new face cream.”

Matt: Yeah. So then under the Viable Epidermis you’ve got your Dermis, which is where all the blood vessels are, and that’s what we want to get to. So, you’ve got the trickle down between the bricks and then it diffuses through the Viable Epidermis to the bloodstream underneath, that’s one way that your natural or drugs can get into your body through the skin.

The other way, that’s a little bit faster—there’s two other ways—the hair follicles; hair follicles sit in the Dermis. You know how hair follicles stand up when you get goose bumps and whatever, because they’re sitting in the musclie blood vessel layer which is underneath all of that skin stuff, so they’re actually into the bloodstream and into the muscle. So, what actually happens is our active ingredients can run down the hair follicle and get into the bloodstream at that base of the hair follicle and run straight down.

Jeff: Makes sense.

Matt: Most caffeines and guaranas and those sort of things, more of it goes down the hair follicle than actually trickles through the skin. And, the sweat glands are the other one. So, you can go through the sweat glands and the hair follicles, and the base of those will sit in the Dermis which is where we want to get the active ingredients.

So, if you have a look at things like—we mentioned Carnitine gets utilised by the Viable Epidermis, which is why it doesn’t get past there and doesn’t access the fatty tissue under the skin. If you have a look at something like Arginine, for example, because of the way Arginine works in the body, the same mode, very similar molecular weight, very similar to Carnitine, but the Viable Epidermis doesn’t utilise Arginine. So, what happens is, it goes straight through that tissue and it goes to the Dermis underneath where we have blood vessels and the Arginine dilates the blood vessels in the Dermis underneath. That increases the absorption of the other ingredients that react with it, and that has the vasodilation effect.

Jeff: Actually Matt, you’re just making me think a little bit about PROTOTYPE 8 there, because it’s such a great product. And, when we’re talking to Tony he’s going to be talking specifically how he uses it, and in fact, I know we’re even going to be doing some videoing of Tony using the product.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: It is an absolute cracker product, and I think a lot of people don’t really appreciate how well it works, especially using it as a post train. But anyway, that’s a subject for another day.

Matt: Yeah, it’s fun.

Jeff: It is, and I do love the Transdermals, and I appreciate too a lot of people are very skeptical of Transdermals.

Matt: You should be.

Jeff: But, it’s like most products. You and I were only talking about this as well, too. A great deal of products out there are made with Bro Science or with an idea or not manufactured by people who understand pharmacology, who don’t understand things like molecular weight, and they just Google keyword things and go, “Ah, Carnitine, that burns fat.”

Matt: But, target site of action has been totally disregarded, everyone—as far as marketing goes, the public seem to be the ones leading the innovation.

Jeff: Through Google.

Matt: Through bloody Google keyword searching and that. But, the public are out there saying, “We want fast absorption, we want to get this thing into our bloodstream as quickly as possible,” but that’s not necessarily our goal. Your goal may be not delivering it to your bloodstream, which is going to take it all over your body and then to your liver, your goal may be holding it in the fat tissue in the area that you’ve applied it. Or, your goal may be delivering the phytoecty sterones to the muscle tissue nearby where you’ve applied it, as opposed to getting it into the bloodstream, sent around your body, and taken away.

Jeff: Yeah, makes sense. What about penetration enhancers, Matt?

Matt: Yeah, well that’s another topic that we talk about a lot. Because, what’s happened is, with the Transdermal market becoming much larger and the public acceptance of these alternative methods of delivery, there’s big business behind penetration enhancers. So, there’s all these big companies patening and creating these compounds that help the absorption of the molecules. They can do it a variety of different ways: they can either irritate the skin and make the holes bigger, they can increase circulation to the Dermis, that helps things get through, otherwise they can actually change the oil and water concentrations in the skin that helps as a vehicle to deliver the nutrients though.

A big point to know is, most of these really expensive cosmeceutical compounds are just isolated active ingredients out of things that we’ve known to work for a long time; usually out of essential oils. The same way that Bioperine has gone all through the oral medicine world…

Jeff: Yeah, which is just pepper, right?

Matt: Yeah, the pepper compound. They take one compound out of pepper and say that helps absorption orally. They’ve taken another compound out of pepper and called it cosmoperine and said that it will help the absorption Transdermally. I probably shouldn’t mention those names, they’re big bloody companies, they might smash us.

Jeff: Yeah. I wasn’t going to mention it, it just starts with S and ends with ‘the’.

Matt: Yeah. Oops. [00:23:12] accidentally piece that together.

Jeff: And look, to be fair they actually produce a brilliant product and they’ve done a lot of research, but gees, you cant afford buying it.

Matt: No one can afford to use it, and if anyone’s got it in there at the price—if you don’t have to mortgage your home to use the product well it’s probably not in there enough.

But, the big thing is, these compounds are naturally found in essential oils. That’s why these Dragon’s Breath things work so well. We just make up a product, load it up with essential oils as penetration enhancers and a few active ingredients, and this stuff goes straight through. When you put that on the soles of your feet you’re tasting it.

The other thing is, with all of our other products, the right combination of essential oils we can get the active ingredients delivered really efficiently. We can do a combination of things, open up the pores, increase the blood flow, change the solubility, and actually get the active ingredients held within the essential oil vehicles and taken into the body. Essential oils are brilliant, extremely, extremely powerful.
We talked about Rosemary oil with a prototype…

Jeff: Love that stuff.

Matt: That Rosemary oil, at the time that you are applying it into your muscles you’re inhaling the essential oil, it’s crossing the blood brain barrier waking up your brain at exactly the same rate at which it’s penetrating through your skin to activate the local nerves. Now, if you don’t get a muscle mind connection from that sort of activity then you’re dead. Yeah.

Jeff: Your dead.

Matt: It’s not your arm.

Jeff: Matt, it’s probably worthwhile revisiting PROTOTYPE 8 because that actually covers off on smell, which is obviously another way to create a reaction in the body as well.

Matt: Yeah, inhalation. Yeah, that’s the other way. We talked about troches and lozenges, yeah, inhalation, spraying stuff up your nose.

Jeff: That’s excellent. Matt, was there anything else that you wanted to talk about, about Transdermal. I liked how you were short and sweet to the point.

Matt: Oh, that’s the most important bit. I think the big thing is to understand when we’re formulating these products we have to understand our intended purpose, where our target sites are, so we can create the right delivery vehicle to get to those tissues. We also have to understand that the research that someone has created for oral use of an ingredient, like Carnitines or whatever, don’t necessarily relate to Transdermal.

Jeff: Well again, this still brings me back to the point when we originally started with Arginine.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: That was intravenous Arginine that all these companies used the results from 20 grams, that’s 20,000 milligrams of Arginine intravenously that created that effect. But, then they said, “Well, we’re going to put 5 grams of Arginine into an oral supplement and expect that the long term results are going to be the same,” and that’s the thing that really is annoying.

Matt: Yeah. And, that’s the other thing, and I always say this, “There’s no right or wrong,” it’s just information. There’s no good news, bad news, it’s just news.

Jeff: Thanks Master.

Matt: Yeah. We just need to know what we’re dealing with, you know. And, this is where it gets a bit frustrating is because, for example; Arginine—remember you asked me to make a pre workout at one stage and then when I didn’t put Arginine in it you questioned why when everyone else was using Arginine, and it got us on the whole discussion of how Arginine orally is useless, and IV is not much better, and blah, blah, blah.

Then, later on, about a year later, I pumped out this cream and one of the main ingredients is Arginine, and you were like, “Mate you didn’t like Arginine.”

Jeff: Oh well, I’ve learnt…

Matt: It’s just like understanding the tool, you know, and I’m not the tool, you’re the tool.

Jeff: But, I’ve learnt not to question you anymore.

Matt: No, you’ve got to question.

Jeff: No, no but what I’m saying is, I think a lot of people were going, “Hang on, you’ve said Arginine is bad,” and you’re like, “No, no when I say Arginine is bad, Arginine for this purpose delivered this way is not effective.”

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

Jeff: But, “Doing it this way is a better, more effective way to use it for that target goal.”

Matt: Yeah, and that’s the whole thing. And, you’ll find with this thing it’s just understanding how things work and then once you learn how to use that tool effectively then that’s what you can do. You’re not just doing weird stuff. Which, happens a lot.

Jeff: Yeah. No, that’s good. And, it is funny Matt, we do have a lot of discussions and talks, and the funny thing is, I ask more open ended questions now because I get slammed if I take a viewpoint because you always smash me.

Matt: No, but those questions are so good. That’s what makes our products good, you know. We’ve got to rip them to bits.

Jeff: Well, it’s coming from the point of view of the status quo and then trying to rip it apart.

Matt: Mm.

Jeff: Now Matt, just quickly before we run out of time, we’ve got a couple of FAQs that I want to get into.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Matt, so the FAQ that we’ve got is from Terry.

“I just have an enquiry about the INFRARED product of yours. I used a sample for a three-hour cycle race on the weekend, which was recommended to me by the guys at a store. I suffered muscle cramping like crazy. The guys said that it is impossible for that to happen being on INFRARED. Can you shed some light on that?”

So Matt, obviously INFRARED is an electrolyte based product.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: So, here Terry is, gone out for a ride using what he thinks is a good electrolyte product, which INFRARED is a great one. How can this happen? I mean obviously there’s got to be some other things.

Matt: So, with electrolytes we’re referring to sodium, calcium, magnesium and potassium. So, the ratios between those electrolytes it’s hard to predict the requirements for everyone. So, what you’ll find is, slight variations in those electrolytes can mean that we make a product that’s maybe higher in magnesium than it is calcium or sodium, and people can still cramp. So, if you’re using INFRARED and you still get cramps, you may need to increase your sodium intake leading up to an event, or take salt tablets and that sort of stuff, especially if you’re the sort of person who’s been avoiding sodium, or consuming too much water leading up to it. Hyperhidrosis, so drinking excessive amounts of water will strip sodium out of your body, and we’ve got to actually add extra sodium back in and there may not be enough in the INFRARED to compensate for someone with a sodium deficiency.

Jeff: That reminds me of the guys up on the Kokoda trail that died because they drank too much water and flushed out their salts.

Matt: Yeah, that’s right. So, you’ve got to replace the salts and that. And, not necessarily while you’re doing the ride and that sort of stuff would he have depleted his sodium stores but maybe leading up to it, maybe. I don’t know, it’s hard to judge just from the information given.

Jeff: Sure.

Matt: So, too much water on days, other days, depleting sodium stores, or avoiding salt in your diet.

Jeff: And, with salt, Matt, just quickly Himalayan Salt, and what’s the other one?

Matt: Oh Celtic Sea Salt, I like that one.

Jeff: That’s the best one isn’t it?

Matt: Yeah, make sure it’s dirty looking and make sure it’s got iodine in it, because we need a lot of iodine out of our salt.

Jeff: And, the Himalayan pink salt’s not too bad either is it?

Matt: Well I don’t know, the Himalayans are renowned for goiter, which is an iodine deficiency. So, the Himalayas are actually renowned for having very low iodine, because iodine comes from the ocean, so this salt from—I don’t know.

Jeff: Celtic Sea Salt, we’ve changed over onto that now.

Matt: Yeah, I prefer—well, that’s my only thing, the Himalayas, for as long as I’ve known, have been renowned for these women with these lumps sticking out of their necks from not getting enough iodine out of their diet because there’s no iodine in the Himalayas because it’s so far from the ocean.

Jeff: Of course, it makes sense.

Matt: Whereas Sea Salt or something like that would have heaps.

Jeff: You’d assume it comes from the sea.

Matt: So, you need to look into sodium. The other cause for that can be calcium deficiency but it’s rare because normally we can liberate calcium out of bones and teeth if we need to. So, the most common cause there would be a sodium deficiency or full dehydration, just not enough water. So, that’s the thing, too much water leading up to the event or not enough water on the day of the event, and I’d spike up extra sodium to make sure you’re not cramping.

Jeff: Alright. Well Terry, let us know how you get on mate, hopefully that helps. Again, without actually having a full on face to face consult with you it’s hard to narrow some of these things down, but if that sounds like Matt’s on the right track—and, again, if this becomes a consistent problem please go and see your healthcare practitioner.

Matt: Yeah, go see your doctor, get a full blood count, that’ll measure the electrolytes, and also make sure they measure a thing called the Anion Gap, and that gives a bit of marker to tell us the ratios between your on and off switches. Yeah, so get that…

Jeff: What do you mean, “Your on and off switches”?

Matt: Well like, for example; sodium and calcium are your on switches, magnesium and potassium are your off switches.

Jeff: Perfect. Alright. Thanks Terry for the question, and I’ll get Elsa to send you out some product, she’ll be in contact with you.

Okay, next one. This one’s a little bit longer, Matt, and I’m very sensitive to time so I’ll have to make this quite quick.

“Hi Matt and team at ATP Science. I recently purchased some SUBCUT for the first time and applied it to my torso and hip areas. This was on a rest day for me and I was busy for a shift at work, so I thought, “Why not?” Only about an hour into my shift I noticed my core was engaged,” that’s interesting. “I had no idea what to expect but the effects of the results I have had so far with more rigorous and regular application has been terrific. I was unsure about how effective the cream would be at first but the results of my first bottle of SUBCUT led me purchase it again, as well this time as PROTOTYPE 8 for my hypertrophy training. The combination of these two products has given my fitness regime a revival.” That’s great to hear.
“My question to you is, what do you recommend for sleep and recovery? I’m a shift worker and often whilst I find it hard to fall asleep I don’t feel like I’m achieving enough deep REM sleep to help my recovery. I’m looking forward to adding BLOCK E3 to my creams, supplement stack, for better results and working towards my end of year fitness goals.

Thanks for breaking the mould on traditional supplements and providing an enjoyable intellectual podcast.”
Thanks Reardon, that’s fantastic.

Matt: That was cool.

Jeff: Well Matt, just quickly, let’s dive straight into the sleep issue, and I know we’ve mentioned it a couple of times.

Matt: No, I’ll tell you the core stuff first, that’s a much better story.

Jeff: Well, I’m sitting there going, “I’ve—that’s…

Matt: No man. Do you remember in the early days we did trials on the SUBCUT and we just ran it, we did that trial with over 300 women.

Jeff: Yeah, but the only thing I remember about the 300 women coming back was that they’d found their libido had increased.

Matt: Exactly. This is sort of what I’m getting at. We gave out questionnaires and we asked certain questions regarding body shape changes and that, and then we left it available for random comments, just anything, unprompted, anything else you think you may have noticed while you were using the product, and we had 80% of the women came back and said libido was through the roof. You also remember all the testimonials that were coming through with the bowel function, improving bowel function and everything?

Jeff: Well, look not to get too graphic, but every time I use it 20 minutes later I have to go to the toilet.

Matt: Now, Cyclic AMP; so what this product does it increases Cyclic AMP in tissue, that’s how it mobilises fat. Cyclic AMP is an on switch, and you put it in fat tissue and what it does is it liberates the stored fat, if you increase Cyclic AMP. If you increase Cyclic AMP in the muscles and the bowel or in the reproductive organs and that it works as an on switch and increases the activity in that tissue. So, that’s how it improves metabolic rate, that’s how it works as a stimulant into those areas.

So, it’s very powerful to see that the combination of Forskolin, which directly stimulates Cyclic AMP production. When you combine that with caffeine, the caffeine inhibits these enzymes, phosphodiesterase enzymes that break down the Cyclic AMP and preserve it. So, you get this double whammy effect. Plus, the other ingredients that activate the receptors on the outside of cells to further increase Cyclic AMP production, so we get this strategy to get ridiculous amounts of Cyclic AMP into the tissue that you’ve applied it to.

The reason, again, why it works very well Transdermally—you could never do that in that dose and that strength orally, because too much Cyclic AMP in your gut wall you’re going to be rushing to the toilet.

Jeff: Yeah, well I already do.

Matt: Yeah, so that’s how good it’s penetrating through your body. So it’s interesting. So, alright, sleep.

Jeff: Sleep, Matt, quick.

Matt: I’m going to quickly tell a really good trick. If Readon’s a thinker, which I think he is, his brain’s ticking. CORT RX; if you take CORT RX—the way I take CORT RX is I do it at night, and I do two CORT RX with my evening meal, and then another two about half an hour before I plan to go to bed. So, I’m doing a massive dose of CORT RX at night because it preserves a chemical called Acetyl Choline, which improves deep quality sleep, it offsets the adrenaline and noradrenaline, and it will flatten the cortisol making you more anabolic while you’re asleep so you can actually do all your regeneration and repair.
The best thing is, it’s not a sedative, so you actually wake up feeling awesome. So, you go into a really deep fresh sleep, and it flushes blood up to your head, it gets rid of all that excessive mental chatter…

Jeff: Wow!

Matt: And, you can just go to sleep without a sedative. If you’re a thinker or if you’ve got a bit of stress going on and you use a sedative, you’ll override that sedative, you’ll fight against it because your body thinks if you’re not punching something or running, you should be hiding. It doesn’t want you to relax too much. This product will efficiently balance out your nervous system to allow you to switch out of stress mode and into recovery mode.
Yeah, so doing it at night—you can still do one CORT RX three times a day to keep cortisol and stress levels cool, and inflammation cool all day, but that double dose at night that’s a good trick.

Jeff: At night, it works well. Just quickly, Matt, as well, some other things so it doesn’t look like we’re just flogging our products, which of course we’d love people to take, but zinc and magnesium can help as well?

Matt: Of course, yeah.

Jeff: B6?

Matt: Yeah, zinc, magnesium, B6. Especially magnesium is very important because it makes sure you’re capable of switching off. With magnesium deficiency you just can’t switch off. Look at those things.

I love Melatonin.

Jeff: Yeah, fantastic. Was that banned here in Australia?

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: It is, but if you’re listening…

Matt: Go see your doctor, and I usually get about 3mg prescribed and then I can take three of them and that will give me around that 9, 10mg mark, which is usually enough for me, and hopefully enough for Reardon because it’s not me, I suppose, but you know what I mean.

Jeff: No, well I’ve just been on the plane backwards and forwards to the States and I find 3mg is enough.

Matt: Yeah, well that’s what they say, you can go a 3mg dose because a lot of people go 10mg and then where do you go from there? So, I usually get 3mg, take three of them, if that works that’s great, the next night take two, next night take one, and then do it for a little while and then stop it, it usually retrains that pattern.

Jeff: And, obviously, stimulants at night, so no TV in the bedroom, that’s a big one, and make sure it’s nice and dark in there as well too.

Matt: Yeah, a period of darkness. Shagging. What? What are you looking at me like that for? It’s good, you get a nice serotonin release.

Jeff: You had to go there. Alright, thanks Reardon. I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing your name correctly, but I hope that helps as well too.

Matt, last word?

Matt: I still haven’t thought of any.

Jeff: Love it.
Thanks guys for listening. We’ll be back next week with Tony Freeman, it’s set to be a really good interview. We’re going to be talking a lot about Tony’s training history.

Matt: No, I want to do home remedies.

Jeff: And, home remedies with Tony.

Matt: Man, because I love Tony’s recipes and his harmonising, synergistic, anatomically superior, perfection.

Jeff: Pow, pow, pow. Yeah, he’s a great guy.

Matt: You watch the cerebral connection. I love it.

Jeff: Thanks guys, and we’ll be back next week. See you then.