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Episode 207 – Question Everything

 

In this episode of the ATP Project, Jeff, Matt and Steve chat about the company’s motto “Question Everything”, what this entails, why we live by it and where this standard is going to take us into the future. They discuss how you can look at studies and evidence in an ethical manner, breakdown the facts from fiction and also highlight some of the critical pitfalls you should look out for when researching the ever-developing world of science.

Transcript:

Steve:                   Welcome to the ATP Project, today you’re with your hosts Matt, Jeff and myself Steve, and we’re going to be talking about the term Question Everything. We’re going to be talking about how you can go through life, look at studies, look at evidence, and be able to question it in a very ethical manner, and what things to look out for when you’re researching things. So sit back and enjoy.

Jeff:                       As always this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition, and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information in this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start.

Speaker 3:           Welcome to the ATP Project. Delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance, and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best, or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax, and open your mind as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.

Jeff:                       Welcome to the ATP Project you’re with your hosts Matt, Steve and Jeff, good day guys.

Steve:                   Good day.

Matt:                     Good day.

Jeff:                       Today we’re talking about Question Everything. Which is kind of funny because we’ve got it in our tagline and what’s important I guess as far as science, as far as anything really goes is you need to ask the questions to be able to get to the truth. So there’s a lot of stuff happening at the moment all over the world but specifically Australia, stuff that gives me pause for concern. Steve, recently you flew down to Sydney?

Steve:                   Yes.

Jeff:                       And you were spending time at a conference down there that’s looking at some of the legislation in Australia around our freedoms, around complimentary or natural medicines as well too, and I definitely want to touch on that.

Jeff:                       Matt, we’ve been talking a lot about articles and pseudoscience and things written up as scientific, but really when you break it down are really leading people in a certain direction and things like that as well too and the importance of being able to not just take the two second grab from something but actually delve into the science and really get into those sorts of things.

Jeff:                       So Steve can I start with you mate.

Steve:                   Sure mate.

Jeff:                       So tell us what’s happening and how Australia is going to hell in a handbasket.

Steve:                   Yes, all right.

Jeff:                       And look our international… I mean just if right now you’re in the United States, seriously, you guys fight for your liberties like there’s no tomorrow which is what I love about the U.S. They don’t roll over easy, they fight, and any time there’s any legislation they’re out there bloody picketing and marching and all the rest of it. Australia on the other hand, just seems to roll over and go back to sleep.

Steve:                   Well in America they have the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment I believe is that they have free speech. And the second is about guns I think, don’t question me on this I’m not very good with the American legislation. But in Australia when I went to a Therapeutic Goods Administration or TGA meeting, we were talking about natural medicines and what you can say about them and how you can advertise them, and the take home message is it’s very, very tightly controlled, and if you slip outside that mold, for any reason, you’re in trouble.

Jeff:                       And look Steve I understand, and let me play devil’s advocate for a bit, that we do want to make sure that people are adhering to a certain amount of common sense, and we know that specifically in our industry in the past and probably this is where the baby’s been thrown out with the bathwater, people have made radical, unsubstantiated claims, and we don’t want that in our industry.

Steve:                   No, we don’t.

Jeff:                       But some of these laws though I think may be a bit of an overreaction I think to some of the problems, and unfortunately this is where things are going to go a bit awry, because you’re not going to be able to-

Matt:                     Well they’re running the assumption that we’re all criminals.

Jeff:                       Yes.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     That’s what bugs us. Sometimes you’ve got to think back to the nature of the beast. You know how sometimes if someone’s a compulsive liar, anytime you say something, they’ll go, “Ah that’s a lie.” If the nature of the beast is a particular way, they see these things. If the nature of the beast is that they would be likely to con you to try to get some money, then any time someone else does something, they’re like, “Oh that’s a con to get money, I can see straight through that.” It just bugs me that the Australian Government would consider any testimonial or any marketing of a product by either a professional, or a consumer, or even a retailer that’s had good results, or a naturopath and that sort of stuff that found really good results or a particular thing that it does well. They can’t say that without the government believing that it’s a, we’re misleading people into making a purchase that is fraudulent. And that’s the worst bit, it’s like-

Steve:                   It’s probably the worst bit. There’s a few other worst bits but that’s probably one of the worst ones because if a product X, and I won’t mention any names or anything, helps with situation Y, and people are saying that, they should be able to say that. But if situation Y is not on an agreed list by our Therapeutic Goods Administration then situation Y, you can’t, you’re not allowed to say that. You can’t give honest feedback.

Jeff:                       Steve what was, I mean you were down there you were talking to the panel from TGA as well too, I mean obviously the response from what you’re saying was pretty negative in the room from the floor.

Steve:                   Oh there was yes. A few things about the testimonials was, but the other thing that struck me was very anti-science in a way. And what I’m saying is that let’s say, because you’re not allowed to make any claims about a serious condition unless you register your product with the TGA which is a lot of money and that’s where all your pharmaceuticals are in there so we’re talking natural medicines here. But let’s say you had a product with loads of turmeric in it, let’s say. And that turmeric was found in multiple studies to help people with let’s say rheumatoid arthritis. And the science says look it does help people with rheumatoid arthritis.

Steve:                   You are not allowed to say that. Because rheumatoid arthritis is restricted.

Matt:                     Serious?

Steve:                   You’re allowed to say it about mild arthritis or something like that. But there is a list and you’re allowed to say a certain thing, it doesn’t matter what the science says, and I see that as anti science as far as I’m concerned. I should say, if you’ve got the evidence to support that, we should be able to say that, and we should be able to say, “Well look, the evidence supports this and the people should have the right to know this.”

Jeff:                       And that’s where in the States, why I love part of the legislation over there is generally regarded as safe. Now the onus typically is on buyer beware. Which I love that policy. And we know that there are some smart marketing companies out there that have taken advantage of people, but I think where it has been proven that the company has falsified, mislead, on purpose, well then that could potentially open them up for fines or something more serious. But where there’s evidence to suggest and back that is reasonable, I do believe that it should have the same kind of aspirations as what happens in the U.S. Generally regarded as safe, and down the bottom you’ll often notice on U.S. websites, same with our .com as well too because we’re operating in multiple jurisdictions, these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, and the FDA and the TGA are kind of similar, not quite but they share some-

Matt:                     The same governing bodies.

Jeff:                       … yes, some common ground.

Steve:                   Yes, they do. The interesting thing about the list and all these sort of things and about the Therapeutic Goods Act in Australia is it is separate from food. And Matt and I always talk about food being medicine. But in Australia they’ve separated the FDA if you want to call it, into a TGA and a FSANZ thing which is a food group and a therapeutic group, so you can’t have a food that is therapeutic. So Hippocrates, “Let food be your medicine,” you can forget that. Even though there may be great studies showing broccoli helps prevent some sort of cancer somewhere.

Matt:                     So with TGA we’re left with food being merely macros and potential sources of allergens.

Steve:                   Yes you can’t make claims about it.

Matt:                     You can’t make micronutrient claims, you can’t talk about prevention, management. You know how you were talking about rheumatoid arthritis before?

Steve:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt:                     An interesting paper published around the year 2000 or something on people with rheumatoid arthritis, they said if there was one thing you could fix to help with your rheumatoid arthritis what would it be, and they all said, “Fatigue.”

Matt:                     So for example if you make a product that helps someone’s energy levels, makes them feel better, happen to have rheumatoid arthritis, they do a testimonial to say, “Man, started taking this product, energy feels great, makes it easier to deal with my arthritis from day to day.” That product then you have to remove, because they’ve overlapped a claim.

Jeff:                       Well my understanding is Steve, and correct me where I’m wrong, is that what they’re saying now is that if you’ve got a product and let’s say it’s manufactured under FSANZ, where you’re not allowed to make claims and we’ll get more into that from an ATP experience-

Matt:                     So under FSANZ is food?

Steve:                   Food, yes.

Jeff:                       Food Standards Australia and New Zealand, right?

Steve:                   Yes.

Jeff:                       You’re not allowed to make any sort of claims pretty much.

Steve:                   Pretty much not. There’s some limited things, but yes you really can’t.

Jeff:                       Nothing really. But if someone then comes on and says, “I took XYZ product and it helped with this condition,” even if it’s not on that person’s website, apparently, you’ve got 48 hours to find that, shut it down, otherwise you could be looking at serious fines-

Steve:                   Yes absolutely.

Jeff:                       … up to five million dollars.

Steve:                   Correct, yes. So if somebody bought a product from a retailer, which open happens, you have a manufacturer, you have retailers, and let’s say this person put it on the retailer’s website and said, “Hey this product’s great, it helped me with my rheumatoid arthritis.” Bang, you’re in big trouble.

Matt:                     And the retailer’s not in trouble though huh.

Steve:                   No, because even though they control the website-

Matt:                     So why, and if that testimonial and that ad is producing sales, why the hell would they pull it down, other than the fact that the company that they’ve just got in trouble might disappear.

Steve:                   Yes and there was one of the big issues that I had.

Jeff:                       Well I’d like to see how they’re going to actually enforce that and do so in a way that doesn’t deny people of their rights, because you have the right to be innocent until proven guilty, what happens if someone does that maliciously?

Matt:                     Well did you see what-

Jeff:                       Makes up scandalous claims just to target a brand.

Matt:                     Oh just to shut you down, and then keeps posting another one.

Matt:                     See there was another one with Selena Gomez the other year because she’s officially sponsored by Coca Cola and does a lot of Coca Cola ads.

Jeff:                       I didn’t know that.

Steve:                   I didn’t know that either.

Matt:                     Yes, so she does a lot of things and she’ll do a tag, sorry I follow the pop culture-

Jeff:                       He just wants to be a teen model.

Matt:                     I just want to be Bieber.

Steve:                   Oh jeez.

Matt:                     Oh, anyway.

Jeff:                       He’s so dreamy.

Steve:                   (Singing). I was just singing, I was just getting a bit of [crosstalk 00:10:11].

Jeff:                       He was closing his eyes.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:10:11] I don’t want to be Bieber anymore. Like man I’ve been Bieber for five seconds and shit got weird.

Steve:                   [crosstalk 00:10:18].

Matt:                     Straight away some old bloke looks me in the eyes and starts humming to me, I’m not Bieber all right? Anyway, Selena Gomez is sponsored by Coca Cola and she does all these things and followed all the rules, hash tag sponsored athlete or paid advertisement, and a lot of them were pretty obvious like posters. Then they all got smashed because there was a picture up there where she didn’t use the hashtag. And it went to courts and all that sort of stuff and Coca Cola liked it, which I think was the endorsement of that ad without the sponsorship and everything else all right. Anyway, it went to courts and everything and she was arguing going, “Look I know they’re my sponsor, I know that, I just like drinking Coke. Sometimes, I drink Coca Cola and people take photos of it and it ends up, on places. I didn’t stage it, I didn’t do it, I was drinking my Coca Cola-

Steve:                   Wow.

Matt:                     … and then it got put up.”

Matt:                     And they got pinged for it and everything-

Jeff:                       Wow.

Matt:                     … and it created a lot of drama, and that was a big example when I went over to America the other year to go to that marketing conference and they’re talking about the FTC is the one to watch out for in America that are judging on the claims and they’re the ones that are policing the social media and that sort of stuff. Which is interesting because in Australia that’s our ACCC, but in Australia that’s not who’s policing these, it’s actually, you’re saying it’s the Therapeutic Goods Administration, wow, so-

Steve:                   They do yes. Their point of view is if someone says, “This product is great for my rheumatoid arthritis,” then that’s considered an advert because they’re advertising it. I know it’s just someone writing… and you know that-

Matt:                     I’m a naturopath.

Steve:                   Well forget you advertising it. You’re not allowed to make product endorsements if you’re a health professional.

Matt:                     Now when I first graduated naturopath and then I was in the habit of being really good, getting my CPE points, and my insurance, and keeping my association memberships and that, and I used to have these pictures where I put the stickers on each year, to show that I got it. One of those certificates was a framed certificate saying that I have a TGA exemption from advertising. As a naturopath, because I’m educated in the field, I’m not easily tricked in this respect, and because my clients are there under confidentiality and I’ve got the qualifications to assess and provide a protocol, I was exempt from TGA advertising laws. Meaning that I could say things that someone that wasn’t a naturopath couldn’t say.

Steve:                   Yes that’s right.

Matt:                     So what’s the go there now?

Steve:                   Well you can still educate naturopaths and that if they’re only naturopaths-

Matt:                     So are naturopaths exempt from TGA advertising laws?

Steve:                   Well they are yes if you advertise to them.

Jeff:                       Only if you’re viewing it.

Matt:                     Face to face consult. But I can’t sit there and as a naturopath and say, “I like this product.”

Steve:                   Oh no, that’s… you can’t have a health prof-

Matt:                     What about product range or company?

Steve:                   No you can’t. A health professional cannot endorse a therapeutic good in Australia.

Matt:                     Do you know Rob the dentist, wasn’t a dentist? He was well ahead of his time. He was just an actor, showing his back going “I’m Rob the dentist.”

Steve:                   I remember him. “Morning Rob” and it’s back to the… but no you can’t. And remember the days when the doctors used to advertise for Camel cigarettes.

Jeff:                       I do.

Steve:                   Yes, well they can’t do that anymore.

Matt:                     Oh what?

Steve:                   That’s just outrage. But no as a health professional you can’t give endorsements on therapeutic goods which is a little bit weird to me and you guys might disagree with this but I would think that someone who knows about the product would be best to endorse that product, if they know about it.

Matt:                     And experience, and clinical experience. And we sit there and say, “No, I treat people with rheumatoid arthritis for example all day every day, I find this product really helps.”

Jeff:                       Yes but here’s the thing right, I mean what’s to stop then… in a way if you look at it well if there are drugs out there, drug companies, that recommend XYZ whatever pill for a certain condition, and then they get trips overseas, or holidays, or endorsements, because they’ve prescribed a certain amount, that’s not a bad thing, because then the doctors are acting in the best interest of the patient, not the financial remuneration that they may get from a drug company. So that’s actually a pretty good thing.

Steve:                   Yes that’s a good thing. But they have some exemptions, they’re actually allowed to do some sort of deals and sponsorships, they are exempt from some of these things and I’m not getting into. It’s ah… I know it sounds all good in theory.

Jeff:                       Oh, hang on a minute, well that’s crap then. Because-

Matt:                     So the risk people are exempt because they… I don’t know why.

Steve:                   And I’ve been to medical conferences where they do endorse products to other doctors, and the loophole if you want to call it that is the doctors are not susceptible to being easily influenced.

Jeff:                       They’re infallible.

Matt:                     Mislead.

Steve:                   Yes, so there is endorsements allowed to be made at medical conferences about certain products.

Jeff:                       So then why would they need to be paid then if they’ve got their customers’ best interests heart?

Steve:                   Oh, yes that’s a good question. Yes I’m not supporting it.

Jeff:                       I’m going to ask Dr. Doug.

Steve:                   I’m going to ask Dr. Do… he’s in America at the moment, he’s going on holiday at the moment.

Jeff:                       So in terms then… obviously that’s one issue, and something that I think is in progress at the moment here within Australia. As a part of that as well too, our .com.au website here in Australia, we had to close that down for a period of time simply because we were contacted by regulatory authorities saying that we had information on the website which wasn’t deemed to be suitable. Effectively because we had links and we had information on there.

Jeff:                       So because we had an information based site, took us a long time to make sure that we got everything right. We finally got the site back up, but unfortunately we’ve had to remove a lot of the links and a lot of the information to stay current with those regulatory authorities. Which we don’t like, but we respect and obviously we abide by the laws of the country that we’re in.

Steve:                   Of course.

Matt:                     Because you’re allowed to educate on ingredients to a certain degree, without making claims, you just can’t say anything about products because that’s a misleading scam.

Steve:                   That’s true.

Jeff:                       Well look, and part of the reason why I like the States so much and why we have the .com is because typically a lot of our education, our information, is actually coming out of our U.S. centers now. So we-

Matt:                     Remember we got in trouble though from the FDA consultant, because we submitted… we said, “Look we’ve done everything we need to be legal and compliant and Australia’s the strictest place in the world, so here’s our stuff, review it for it.”

Matt:                     And she’s just gone, “Oh you’re going to get in big trouble in America with this stuff, you have to tell people what the intended purpose is.”

Jeff:                       Intended purpose.

Matt:                     So in Australia for example you can’t say, “Alpha Mars is a test booster,” for example, or-

Jeff:                       Natural testosterone support.

Matt:                     … a fat loss supplement. You just can’t say those things because they indicate an altering function in structure or a claim. But in America-

Steve:                   You have to.

Matt:                     … you have to tell someone at least what you hope it does. And then you’ve got to do some data, you release them and say this is our justification for this thing existing, otherwise you’re going to get pinged for being misleading, confusing the market, and that sort of stuff.

Matt:                     So it’s funny eh, and this is a problem where you get globally a paper studied in Germany, published in a British medical journal, or whatever, so that it can be talked about at a Texas uni for example, that may influence and overlap multiple regions of regulation. So we’ve talked about Australia for TGA, we’ve talked America for FDA, we’ve got EU groups we’ve got these-

Jeff:                       Is it Codex in the EU?

Steve:                   Something.

Matt:                     Oh there’s a… Codex I think is even different again. Codex I think is another independent group-

Steve:                   It’s another one yes.

Matt:                     … that goes and advises all of these different regulatory affairs.

Jeff:                       Because, last time I looked into that, I believe in France, creatine is actually banned.

Steve:                   Is it really?

Matt:                     Yes creatine is banned in France.

Steve:                   In France. Is it toxic for the French?

Jeff:                       I mean I don’t know if there’s been any changes to the legislation from when-

Matt:                     [inaudible 00:17:35].

Jeff:                       … that was years ago, but yes it was banned in France.

Steve:                   Crazy stuff.

Jeff:                       Yes.

Steve:                   And in TGA you know we’ve got two groups in TGA the AUST R and the AUST L and we’re-

Matt:                     No three groups now, because you’ve got AUST L(A). Therapeutic claims.

Steve:                   Yes, the traditional claims.

Matt:                     Traditional medicine claims.

Steve:                   Traditional medicine claims. It’s very difficult. But now they’ve really prescribed what you can and can’t say on the product in a big list, which is good and bad. Because, you can only say what’s on this particular list, end of story if you’re on AUST L. On AUST R you can register a claim and it costs 50 thou… whatever it is… lots and lots of money. Typically, you have to be an S4 prescription drug to do that, while natural medicines can be an AUST R, they rarely are an AUST R.

Jeff:                       So and this is all to do with protecting the public, is that what they say?

Steve:                   That’s what they say. The government legislates [inaudible 00:18:26] their people, if they don’t trust them, have you heard that saying?

Jeff:                       Yes.

Steve:                   If the government doesn’t trust people to say, drive safe, they say “You must drive under a hundred.” Some of these things are reasonable-

Jeff:                       Common sense.

Steve:                   … but it’s the level of trust that the Australian Government has for the consumer-

Matt:                     They think we’re idiots.

Steve:                   … and it’s low. It’s very low, compared to other countries.

Matt:                     Yes they absolutely think we’re idiots. They think the consumer is an idiot, and that anyone associated with business is a criminal.

Steve:                   They can’t be trusted with scientific information. Which is what I hate, because the scientific literature in, I’ve got an article here from JAMA just from today which is fantastic but if I put that on the website about a particular product, you wouldn’t be allowed to. Only under those claims.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:19:04] sorry-

Jeff:                       It’s like some religions that say, “You know what, you can’t read this holy text, it can only be interpreted for you by a priest otherwise you’re going to go mad.” It’s kind of… we’re going backwards. We’ve lost the liberty and the freedom of choice, and self-determination.

Matt:                     But information exchange. So we talk about the evidence based movement where people are looking more and more for that, at the same time in the industry and the academic and institutional world, there’s the anti-science movement. I finally got that right. I’ve been struggling to say anti-sc… hear me try to say struggling there? Anyway I’ve been shruggling-

Jeff:                       Yes lay off the vodka.

Matt:                     … to speak. Yes, no, it’s all right it’s almost gone. Yes the evidence based movement. So what that is, is the general public is getting angry that they can’t find this information, and that everything’s very weird, convoluted with strange language and missing references and data and all that sort of stuff they can’t find. At the same time, in the industry, because people are out there now google searching and doing PubMed searching and everything without the expertise, and the experience, and the training to know exactly what they’re looking for, companies, like corporate companies, in particular corporate America they talk about all the time, the big players in the pharma world and that, they don’t publish the bad news.

Steve:                   No.

Matt:                     If they get a bad study, that’s good science, they might work something out but they don’t want to publish it because they’re worried about the public getting their hands on this.

Steve:                   Exactly.

Matt:                     The only thing people want to publish now is a brochure, disguise white paper as a brochure, because what’s happening now is, if people don’t understand the science they just go straight to the conflict of interest and say, “What a load of rubbish, we’re going to throw it out.”

Matt:                     If there’s any bad news at all that stuff will go around the world, round and round and round, for the one little bit of good news that might come out later.

Steve:                   It’s true.

Matt:                     They talk a lot about this with Roundups and the Monsantos and about how they pick and choose, or how they might alter a study by baking the pigskin before they try to test for transdermal absorption. Yes lots of different little things like that.

Jeff:                       Which is true, that happened. So to inhibit the actual uptake of the nutrients through the skin, they baked it-

Steve:                   Oh, really?

Jeff:                       … so that obviously it didn’t function as skin should.

Matt:                     It functioned like crackling.

Steve:                   It’s quite amazing because the drug companies as you say quite correctly, won’t publish a bad study, but it’s a little bit worse than that. Because, let’s say I wanted to test this new drug A on whatever it is disease, and I gave drug A to a thousand people and 500 of them had adverse reactions. I’ll just exclude them from the study to start with.

Matt:                     Yes, and that’s the pilot trial that you don’t even have to publish.

Steve:                   Exactly.

Matt:                     They just do a little proof of concept trial don’t they.

Steve:                   Yes, side effects.

Matt:                     And they find out who responds, who doesn’t, let’s get rid of the nonresponders-

Steve:                   Or the people who get sick, yes.

Matt:                     … let’s get rid of the group that gets side effects, we’ll then focus on the group that does well, and hopefully get a 60%?

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     What’s a pass mark for a trial?

Steve:                   Well yes 60% would be absolutely fine. Because it depends on the numbers, and with a lot of money-

Matt:                     Does it matter how many people you’ve excluded? Because that’s not even included.

Steve:                   No they’re not included, they’re not counted

Matt:                     That’s part of the exclusion criteria.

Steve:                   The exclusion criteria, and then you randomize the rest of them. Now randomize doesn’t mean random by the way, it means you pick people of the same sort of sex and weight and that’s what randomizing is. But they’re the only people.

Jeff:                       That’s not randomizing, that’s similarizing.

Steve:                   I know, it’s a funny term randomization and people get confused. My students used to struggle with that one.

Jeff:                       It’s like 1984, the Ministry for Peace, which is just the army. You know what I mean? It’s like if you label something magnanimous and generous and sounding good, like whatever act. It’s funny, and I challenge anybody listening to the podcast, when you’re listening to the news, and they’re bringing out new legislation and all the rest of it, especially if it’s something that’s maybe a bit controversial, listen to it and turn that 180 degrees around the other way and that’s probably what it is.

Matt:                     But a lot of these people are really angry, there’s a weird-ass vibe around at the moment where everyone feels obligated to have aggression and angst and all that sort of stuff. Now when someone uses someone else’s quotes or someone else’s argument, pins it to their chest as if it’s their own, and puffs it up, and throws it into our face, you’ve got to be prepared to fend those things sometimes too. You’ve got to understand there is so much angst and anger. Have your own opinion, drop the ego, do your own research, have your own opinion, stand by that opinion. You’ll have much less anxiety, if you actually say something that you personally believe in and that you’ve got some evidence to back it up sort of thing.

Steve:                   Totally, totally. And it’s quite scary because evidence changes too and this is what we’ve got to be aware of.

Jeff:                       No it doesn’t Steve, the earth is flat.

Matt:                     It does, we were talking about that before. We were talking about that before because-

Steve:                   I’ve got ESP remember guys.

Matt:                     … when I did my four year science degree for naturopath-

Steve:                   All those years ago.

Matt:                     … if I had graduated in the year I started, I would have gone out and told everyone to eat chicken and soya bean.

Jeff:                       Of course. Popular.

Matt:                     Because when I first started everyone’s saying, “Get rid of the red meat, go more vegan, tofus and tempeh.” Basically soya beans and chicken was the best.

Steve:                   That was it.

Matt:                     By the fourth year, everyone was saying, “Don’t have chicken because of the estrogen, don’t have soy because of the estrogen.” They were basically, “Those are the worst foods.” So things change very quickly.

Matt:                     Same with the sports stuff, a lot of people still quote back from a paper in the year 2000 that states, “This is what we know about supplements to date.” So basically they’ll review and say that this is all there is to know. That paper was published in the year 2000.

Steve:                   So 19 years nothing’s changed.

Matt:                     No, so this year-

Steve:                   No research, wow.

Matt:                     Then the funny thing is this year, Rich Kreider is publishing from the International Society of Sports Nutrition, the New Essential Guide to Sports Nutrition, which is the new book, well book not a paper. These papers like this that they’re talking about summarizing everything there is to know about sports science, and then that paper’s supposed to last us for the next 20 years, nothing else to know. I graduated in ’99 or something and that paper published in 2000 and no one’s looked at anything since, but the good news is Rich’s got a big book that’s coming out that’ll summarize everything in the last 20 years.

Steve:                   Smart guy.

Jeff:                       And Richard Kreider is an expert in creatine. He is one of the people that first discovered the sporting benefits and the applications of creatine, which spawned creatine as being the most popular supplement probably, outside of protein powder, in the 1990s.

Matt:                     Yes we talk about grass status, he was involved in getting the grass status for creatine, globally.

Jeff:                       Yes, right.

Steve:                   It’s generally regarded as safe, is what’s [crosstalk 00:25:19].

Matt:                     Yes, yes.

Jeff:                       So he’s obviously utilizing new techniques, new research, to find more breakthroughs on creatine or to reposition some of those original statements. And people are coming back quoting his original papers at him, going, “You’re wrong because of this paper.”

Jeff:                       He’s like, “Hang on, I wrote that paper.”

Matt:                     “I’m R. B. Kreider. I’m R. B. Kreider.”

Steve:                   Yes, “I’m the guy on the top.”

Matt:                     “Go in there and type R. B. Kreider, and they’re my papers.”

Jeff:                       It just reminds me of that statement from the patents office in 1901 or whatever it was that said that, “Everything that will be invented, has been invented.” And that was a statement from the patent clerk in 1901.

Jeff:                       This is the problem is that sure, some things have been proven, and until new evidence comes along, that is the foundation of which you believe. As new research and evidence becomes evident and clear, and has been peer reviewed and what have you, then obviously that is the new standard. Just as we’ve said before, like Galileo, like… anyway.

Matt:                     But it’s a little bit… I know it sounds simplified like that, but it’s lot more complicated than that. Because if you have a look at the fact that… I’m trying to think of an example… all right so magnesium is magnesium, okay I don’t care whether it’s made synthetically or extracted from something, we work out your dose of magnesium, we know what magnesium does. So I can use that magnesium data to talk about all different forms of magnesium, so if it’s a magnesium glycinate I use that… you know what I mean?

Matt:                     Herbs are so different. You’ve got to understand, so when people research herbs… so you can have multiple papers, saying totally different things. Trying to combine those into analysis to see on average what that herb does, but you’ve got to understand that seasonal variations will totally change the composition of that herb, what it’s made up of.

Matt:                     If someone uses the peel, or the pulp, or the juice, or the seed, or something like that, they’ve got to make sure they’ve got the right part that they’re researching. When you’re saying… comparing a herb… I’ll give you an example. We recently got asked a question of someone for example we’ve got a product called AMP-V and in there we have grapefruit peel oil. Okay? So grapefruit peel essential oil.

Steve:                   Right okay.

Matt:                     Now that’s extracted through an oil extraction technique, typically cold-pressing or steam distillation. Now ours is in fact steam distillation for our grapefruit peel.

Steve:                   Great.

Matt:                     So, someone recently asked me how do I justify the addition of grapefruit seed into my AMP-V product.

Steve:                   You said grapefruit seed.

Matt:                     Yes. So, on the label on the webpage it’s grapefruit peel oil.

Steve:                   Right.

Matt:                     So someone has asked me, based on these three references, they don’t believe grapefruit seed has any benefit for fat loss. Now for starters I said, “No I agree with you which is why I didn’t put any into the… didn’t put grapefruit seed into AMP-V.”

Steve:                   Really?

Matt:                     “So use the grapefruit peel essential oil.” They then showed me some links, the first link was actually linking… said “Grapefuit seed does nothing for fat loss. Have a look at this paper, where they consumed half a grapefruit.”

Steve:                   Fruit? So just fruit?

Matt:                     They didn’t specify even if the seeds were in the fruit by the way, but they said basically, “drink half a grapefruit.”

Matt:                     And then the next paper they referenced was actually a water extraction, a decoction, made from a blend of citrus, including orange and everything like that. And said again, “Your product can’t work because I’ve proven grapefruit seed doesn’t work because of this paper associated with a water extraction from oranges.”

Matt:                     They then had a third reference which was to another page, saying, “How to eat grapefruit.”

Steve:                   How to eat it?

Matt:                     And it suggested half a grapefruit two to three times a day. Still doesn’t even specify the seeds.

Steve:                   Oh my goodness.

Matt:                     Now all of this… so we have our juice, we have a water extraction, and we have directions on how to consume a grapefruit. All saying that grapefruit seed doesn’t work, and therefore a product containing grapefruit peel essential oil can’t possibly work.

Steve:                   Right.

Jeff:                       Yes, it’s kind of [crosstalk 00:29:10].

Steve:                   Logic is going…

Matt:                     So for example when we say question everything and when we do that, follow the links. When you see a reference list, or a link to a reference, follow it. Click on it. Then when you get there, try to get the full text paper. It’s really important. In amongst the full text paper, don’t just read the intro, or the conclusion, because that’s your brochure. That’s what they want you to read. Go into the materials and methods, because what you want to look at is not just what part of the plant is used. Make sure it’s the right plant. What part of the plant was used. Also need to look at extraction ratios.

Matt:                     You also need to look if they did any testing on the plant, to see if there’s any sort of product specifications we can get, because seasonal variations in plants vary. So you can pick one plant from one farm and do the same paper three or four times over a year and get different results, because they haven’t standardized the extract. So certain times of the year it’s higher in oil and lower in sugar, and blah blah blah.

Matt:                     So things change, they constantly evolve. Herbal medicine is bloody complicated. You have a look at Coleus. Another example is coleus, people get this mixed up all the time.

Steve:                   It’s a herb?

Matt:                     Coleus is a herb. It’s got two botanical names. So there’s Coleus forskohlii, and Plectranthus barbatus. But the active ingredient’s forskolin. And forskolin is old, meaning that it’s probably one of the most researched herbs-

Steve:                   Really well [crosstalk 00:30:30].

Matt:                     … it’s actually a gold standard, used for cyclic AMP activation.

Steve:                   Which is the second messenger within the cell. Yes.

Matt:                     Yes which is why they compare everything else to it-

Jeff:                       Helps with fat loss too doesn’t it?

Matt:                     … drugs and… Yes it’s an on switch basically. You’ve got cyclic AMP, makes things go faster, cyclic GMP slows things down. You know thyroid how thyroid makes things faster? It does it by activating cyclic AMP.

Steve:                   Yes, that’s how it works.

Matt:                     So that’s the whole concept between using coleus, is you can increase cyclic AMP to increase the activity of those cells. So if you have a look at coleus itself, you may only find a handful of studies, I think it’s 300 and something on coleus. But then when you do Plectranthus you find another 200 and something. But there’s about 20 something thousand on forskolin. Because most people aren’t going to go, “Oh, I’m doing a study on coleus, which one do I pi… oh fuck it just forskolin. So they go and just, keep it within the science, so if you’re there reading coleus, but not understanding coleus and how it works, you might accidentally not research it properly.

Jeff:                       But Matt-

Matt:                     And then you might… and then the funny thing is-

Steve:                   [crosstalk 00:31:31].

Matt:                     … again just quickly with cyclic AMP, you know the symptoms of a fast thyroid in your guts? Heartburn, diarrhea, vomiting, watery stools, okay? So you can only take so much of that orally before you get the green apple splatters. So transdermally is another option. So we can’t really assess the effects of coleus or cyclic AMP by referring to oral studies. So you’ve got to go through, look at not only the plant part, but make sure you’ve got the right botanical name, make sure we’ve standardized it to an active ingredient, look for the extraction techniques, look for product specifications to standardize and see if we’ve got actives in that study. Because if that study was done on a herb with no actives, we can throw that one out.

Matt:                     Look for all of that sort of stuff, and then look for the mode of delivery, and then look for doses and all that sort of stuff as well. It’s very complicated.

Jeff:                       It’s tricky. Matt I know it’s complicated. I think the thing is with regards to this is that in advertising now, especially with the rise of social media, Facebook specifically, Instagram as well too, is that peoples’ attention span now is about two seconds. So what’s happening is that there is a rise of meme-based content.

Matt:                     One-liners.

Jeff:                       Yes, one-liners.

Matt:                     Where do you get one-liners that people can remember?

Jeff:                       And pictures with that as well too. Now any credible article or information, doesn’t rely on pop culture to… But today, because people are such short attention spans, to grab peoples’ attention they’re using stuff like that, right, as a lead-in. But people are not reading past the headline. Or if they are, they’re summarizing it. Or they’re asking for people to summarize it for them. Even under the guise that they’ve got the links there, but they’re not actually reading the links.

Jeff:                       And this is where that old saying is, is that a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. Because what people do, they read and share before they’ve even fully digested it, or agreed with it, and all of a su-

Matt:                     Or constructed their own opinion.

Jeff:                       There is no.. no, no Matt, sheep with teeth, and this is what I call them. They’re opinionated, but they’re actually-

Matt:                     It’s not their opinion though.

Jeff:                       No it’s not.

Steve:                   No, it’s weird.

Jeff:                       But they don’t recognize that what they’re doing effectively, is falling under the leader if you like, who’s effectively saying, “Hey, share this, this is science.” And this is how, if you like, myths and anti-science, gets-

Matt:                     Because remember the magnesium citrate, with the animals?

Steve:                   Oh, yes.

Matt:                     Remember we had to… when we released it at MSD we had to deal with these memes about magnesium citrate because one lady, made a big mistake one day on her lunch break and mentioned something in a seminar-

Jeff:                       We did talk about this in a podcast.

Matt:                     Yes, remember the dogs, so animals, dogs, don’t have the ability to convert citrate, it kills them. Humans do. So they were using this research based on animals that don’t eat citrus fruit, because it kills them, and what would happen to a human. But we need them, we have the exact opposite-

Steve:                   We have the citric acid cycle.

Matt:                     Yes.

Jeff:                       No but that paper, even today, even though it was written years ago and it was Barb… what was her name? I forget.

Matt:                     I can’t remember. But she’s dedicated her life-

Jeff:                       Yes. Well, pretty much.

Matt:                     … to telling people that was a-

Jeff:                       That was a mistake.

Matt:                     No. She runs the magnesium foundation or something now, saying, “No, that was… like I just…” Yes.

Jeff:                       That was something over a lunch break she said to somebody, who then took that away, and then replicated that and then everybody said, “Right, magnesium citrate is this.”

Matt:                     Spent the rest of her life saying the exact opposite, but can’t stop these bloody memes coming around and having to justify it.

Steve:                   Yes it’s pretty crazy. This is why I’ve got gray hairs a bit, because when I was teaching herbal medicine for over 10 years, which I did at [inaudible 00:34:58] college. One of the questions I used to ask in the exam just to get people thinking, I used to say, “Okay berberine. You use berberine in your Hydrastis, you run out of berberine in your Hydrastis, which is goldenseal,” I said, “you run out of Hydrastis, what other herbs contain berberine?”

Matt:                     Me, me, me, me.

Steve:                   Yes, Matt would know. But there’s lots of them.

Matt:                     Berberis aquifolium, Oregon-grape.

Steve:                   Yes, Oregon mountain grape. So that would be correct, but a lot of people still to this very day, don’t understand that concept, that there’s a chemical in a herb that can be over many many herbs.

Matt:                     Silybin.

Steve:                   Silybin, yes.

Matt:                     Silybin we hear… it’s a-

Steve:                   That’s a milk thistle, isn’t it?

Matt:                     Yes well that’s one. That’s probably the most famous source of silybin is a milk thistle. But milk thistle’s an oral liver herb, it’s an antioxidant, silybin’s a good antioxidant. Silybin’s found in a lot of thistles. St Mary’s thistle and that sort of stuff. Japanese thistle Cirsium oligophyllum has got silybin in it. We put that in our Subcut, because there’s a wicked paper on rats, which showed the mechanism of action that got me most excited.

Matt:                     Yes there was a 20% reduction in body fat at the local area where applied. So we’re not going to claim that you’re going to get the same thing in a human when you do that, we can’t do that. But what the most exciting part about that paper is explain the mechanism of action from the uncoupling proteins.

Matt:                     Now if I can just, while we’re talking about it, because I’ve half said this… coleus drives up cyclic AMP, that’s one of the ingredients in Subcut. Caffeine is also in Subcut, and caffeine inhibits phosphodiesterase too, which preserves that cyclic AMP, that’s the enzyme that degrades the cyclic AMP. That’s how caffeine can keep you buzzing for longer. So caffeine preserves that cyclic AMP at the same time as it activates our beta-receptors which increase cyclic AMP production.

Matt:                     Cool thing about coleus, none of that matters, it directly goes in and hits cyclic AMP. The whole purpose of cyclic AMP in regards to liberating stored fat and that sort of stuff, and mobilizing these bloody stuff, is actually via uncoupling proteins. So when you have a look at forskolin, combined with caffeine, they do the beautiful cyclic AMP. There’s another thistle, called Cirsium oligophyllum, in the paper on the rats was published, no mention of silybin by the way, but it was all about Cirsium oligophyllum, which is a different thistle to milk thistle. That’s in the product to actually regulate the effects again.

Matt:                     My Subcut product that I originally started with, did not have Cirsium, and didn’t have any of those things. I was buggerizing around for bloody years. I never forget the time we got the Cirsium in and added in and lost significant measurements really really quickly, made a massive difference.

Jeff:                       [inaudible 00:37:27].

Matt:                     So regardless of whether it’s a human study or a rat study, the mechanism of action confirmed that it would be a great addition, and we put it in free of charge.

Jeff:                       Yes, I did notice that. Anyway with regards to this podcast today with regards to the-

Matt:                     What were we talking about?

Jeff:                       Question Everything.

Steve:                   Question Everything.

Matt:                     Oh. [crosstalk 00:37:38].

Jeff:                       Because, and what we’re saying is that you need to question the powers that be. So you need to question your governments, you need to question the companies that you’re listening to, including us-

Matt:                     Except what we say.

Jeff:                       Yes, I know you hate that, but that’s… it’s firmly… it’s tongue in cheek mate.

Matt:                     I hate that. It’s a joke, I know. But question what we say.

Steve:                   Yes, do it.

Matt:                     But question us, come to us with some of those questions if you struggle, yes.

Jeff:                       But this is the thing as well too, I think that not enough people question, they just accept things without looking into the science. We try and provide as much science as we possibly can. I mean in our team for example, Matt it’s not just you and Steve-

Matt:                     Hell no. We’re the handsome ones, so that’s why you always see us.

Jeff:                       … which obviously you guys have got your Bachelor of Health… sorry, Bachelor of Health Science, Master of Health Science. But we’ve got 18 degrees, of which 11 are Bachelor of Health Science or… even John-

Matt:                     Even John?

Jeff:                       … even though we give him a hard time, he’s-

Steve:                   Dr. John.

Jeff:                       Dr. John.

Matt:                     Dr. John?

Jeff:                       He’s an Associate Professor of Chemistry and Bioscience… I forget exactly what it is at UQ. He’s got four degrees I think and a doctorate. We’ve got some-

Steve:                   I’ve only got four, he’s got five.

Jeff:                       Yes. Oh he’s got five.

Matt:                     All these people trying to get jobs.

Jeff:                       Yes, John’s got them all.

Matt:                     Is that what it is, trying to build up a resume? We’ve got hardly any qualifications because we’ve always been self employed. Didn’t need to build up a resume.

Steve:                   But that’s good, experience is [inaudible 00:38:55].

Jeff:                       Yes, but and clinical experience as well too, you guys have worked in research science as well too. As a chemist Steve, you worked with Cousins.

Matt:                     24 year I’ve got, 24 years clinical experience.

Steve:                   That’s a lot.

Jeff:                       So in terms of we know what we’re talking about as far as obviously in our field, and it’s nice to be able to invite people into the podcast who are also experts in their field. Which we’re going to be doing a lot more of this year, because we’re working with Richard Kreider, we’re working with a team of outside associations if you like. The grid project that you’re working on Matt.

Matt:                     Yes, the big thing too when we talk about Question Everything, when I say Question Everything, don’t just be… literally question everything. Don’t just be skeptical and rip stuff apart, ask the question. What you’ve got to realize, there’s only a small percentage of what is known in the scientific community, and what is used as assumptions within the science community that is actually published. So for example people will… we talk about [Jaleta 00:39:49] body balance paper that didn’t get published and that sort of stuff. You can ask the question to ask about that, we can give you some information, and give you the story behind it. You could also ask Jaleta. You could also ask around. You can ask other people.

Matt:                     And so the reason why I was saying that, because when you read these papers, sometimes you’ve actually got to go track down the exact place where it’s from. You can call up… the reason why they put conflict of interests and acknowledgements in the back of these papers is so you know who to call if you’ve got questions. So you can question them. And don’t feel weird man, I’ve rung up Japanese hospitals, looking for herbs that they used in a study or where they bought them from, and they had to run around trying to find someone that can speak English.

Matt:                     Just make the calls, man. Or send the emails. Often even you’ll see in here, the author will often put his email in there, if you’ve got any questions or if you want any further in… Because what I’ll do sometimes if they don’t give me enough information in the materials and methods, I will contact them and ask them for product specifications. I want to know exactly what testing you did on that material prior to the study, if any. And you’ve got to really check that stuff out.

Matt:                     The other thing is, follow them up and get what other data that may not be published. Often all you’ve got to do is sign a nondisclosure agreement. Because we’re formulators and manufacturers, we have a certain amount of data that’s published, but we often have access to institutions, universities, people that own raw materials doing all the science on the raw materials and everything like that. They have this massive suite of information that we can review and read, after we sign a nondisclosure. So contact the companies that own the raw materials, and don’t just… you can contact us of course and we’ll point you in the right direction, give you information what we’ve got. But if… stuff outside of ATP, if you’re curious, if you can’t find the information, papers like this have been unpublished and remain confidential, for five years.

Matt:                     In the meantime there’s people debating the science that is answered in here. So the science around protein is not progressed because they haven’t put this thing through, but we’ve managed to progress our understanding of the science because we have had a chance to read this paper, and understand it, and acknowledge it, talk to the scientists involved.

Jeff:                       I mean the thing is as well too is that with this, I want this to actually be a bit of a series, so the first one is Question Everything, including us, but externally as well too. But we’re actually going to invite… and we’re already looking for some questions now from our tribies and from some of our people, to question in terms of everything. Anything at all. Anything whatsoever.

Jeff:                       The one that I liked, where there was some criticism, was regarding the body balance papers, which is really fair criticism, and something that I absolutely cop on the chin. What happened was, when did we release the body balance, man it was a few years ago now.

Matt:                     It was 2014 or 15.

Jeff:                       2015, I can’t remember, it all seems to ATP time right?

Steve:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt:                     Some things feel like they were weeks ago and they were years, and other things feel like years ago and they were just last week.

Jeff:                       And so basically what happened, is that the paper kept getting pushed back and they said that, “Yes, we’re publishing in June,” and then June came round and then we’re publishing in September and that came round. And it kept getting pushed back. What we found out behind the scenes is that they were actually then decided to-

Matt:                     Hold back.

Jeff:                       … hold that information back, because they were looking to get it published, or to put it through to the EU, so that they could get claims, correct? And they couldn’t have the information hit the market before that period of time.

Matt:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative), needs to be exclusive, unpublished data to be able to get an exclusive claim, for a period of five years, within a whole region of the EU. Now when a little company like ATP in Australia is saying, “You said you were going to do this, and you signed off on this and that,” and they’re like, “Well, sorry we changed our mind.” We’re a bit stuck, aren’t we.

Jeff:                       Yes, but this paper here from the University of Freiburg doesn’t exist.

Matt:                     Ah you got it that time.

Jeff:                       Yes, you stuffed me up… University of Freiburg, doesn’t exist. That’s actually a figment of your imagination. Nice thing is Jaleta actually sending out an apology, a press release, and also they’re finally going to publish the paper next year, after they get their-

Matt:                     EU claims.

Jeff:                       … EU claims. And there’s some new papers coming out.

Matt:                     And there’s also a paper published just the other week on this, just none of the ones compare to whey. So all the data that they got compared to whey, they just take the whey part out and then they can still publish it. And then the whey stuff will happen in a big campaign next year.

Steve:                   Yeah, good.

Matt:                     But that’s easy enough, just ask the question, and if you have to you can sign a nondisclosure with Jaleta and get the same information that we got, the same way we got it.

Jeff:                       Oh we’ve actually shared it with a couple of journalists now, that have actually… we’ve actually contacted them and said, “There, sign a nondisclosure, have a look.”

Steve:                   So they can say they’ve seen it.

Jeff:                       Well, now they’re actually starting to say we’ve actually [inaudible 00:44:16] the paper.

Matt:                     But it’s understandable too, we’re saying something exists that just can’t be found. And then, they go through and go, “Well this can be found, and I can make a link here, and I can make a link there, and I can justify it with this, and I can explain it that way.” But the reality is, is we’re not lying, here’s the paper. It’s very boring, it’s not in-house paper, our in-house trials, it’s actually the in-house trials of the Institute of Sports and Sports Science at the University of Freiburg, with a study coordinator of Stefan Oser from the Collagen Research Institute. So this is funded by Jaleta but done at an independent lab, by independent people.

Steve:                   And the fact that it’s there, and has the evidence in it, and it’s not published yet, still the information will be the same when it’s published. We just got it ahead of time.

Matt:                     Yes, the annoying thing is though, for the sake of science, this is what bugs me when we’re stuck in this evidence based… we’ve got the consumer wanting evidence based information, we desperately want to provide it to them, at the same time as we’ve got this anti-science movement holding this back because it doesn’t suit the commercial gains of a legitimate multinational company.

Jeff:                       Hang on a minute, and then throw into it new legislations where you can’t say anything about your product unless you want to get an AUST R, and/or you want to go down AUST L. And look, this is the thing, unfortunately, is that we’re a food based company that believes in food based medicine.

Steve:                   Well that is a food.

Jeff:                       But we can’t talk about it in Australia. Which is thankfully why we’re talking about this, in the States.

Matt:                     Yes, exactly.

Steve:                   That’s exactly right. Howdy partner.

Jeff:                       Guys, we’ve got to do some FAQs.

Matt:                     Let’s do some.

Jeff:                       Is there anything else that you want to add Steve-o?

Steve:                   No, no we’ve got to get to these FAQs, yes.

Matt:                     Oh, so much. Save it for another thingamajig.

Jeff:                       Let’s do that.

Matt:                     Do the Question Everything in the first episode and then answer nothing til the second one.

Jeff:                       All right. This one’s from Tanya. “Hi guys, I stumbled across your podcast a few months ago when searching for info on fibromyalgia and I have been hooked since. I’ve learned so much since listening. I’ve started on a few of your products recently, and would love some advice on any others that you would recommend. I was really sick approximately 10 years ago, I’ve never diagnosed as I never went to the doctor. But I haven’t ever felt a 100% since. I’ve constantly been up and down in stamina and struggling with fatigue.

Jeff:                       I’ve since had two little girls, six and three, and had a rough pregnancy with my second girl, and also during that time when through a rough patch in my marriage. My daughter was born via c-section and a few months after her birth I forced myself to see a doctor about how down I was, and I was sent out with a prescription for antidepressants. I took these for a few months but felt terrible, with headaches et cetera, so I stopped.

Jeff:                       About 12 months ago my fatigue was terrible, brain fog and aches and pains, even my skin hurt, especially if I was stressed. The local doctor diagnosed fibromyalgia CFS. I went gluten free for a few weeks and my symptoms greatly reduced and I have been eating gluten free since, with no dramas. The last four months or so I’ve been increasingly down, angry and frustrated, and having mood swings, PMS symptoms have gotten worse, and my periods have been painful and heavy. My memory is terrible and I am frequently forgetting even the simplest of things.

Jeff:                       I have also been struggling with sleep, both getting to sleep, and waking up during the night, and I’ve also been waking between 4:00 to 6:00am with heart palpitations which feels like an adrenaline rush. I’ve been taking Cort RX the last few weeks, I had been taking one in the morning and one at night, and have just recently added Alpha Venus, one in the AM and one at night also. And another product at night. I am still really struggling with depression, moods, memory, and sleep issues, but if I forget to take the Cort RX at night, I am really having a terrible night. So I believe it’s working. I have also just purchased Resilience for my whole family to start on.

Jeff:                       I was wondering if you think I should be trying anything else, or changing anything as I really want to be happier and have a better quality of life for my girls, husband, and of course myself. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Tanya.”

Matt:                     Oh man this is so cool. I love this because there’s a really cool thing here we want to talk about that’s going to apply to lots and lots of people. You know how we talk about adrenal maladaptation, and that sort of stuff, and I say that very few people are near the top of the scale, everyone’s hovering towards different stages of exhaustion and fatigue. Well what happens, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue are really really similar. On a cellular level there’s not a huge amount of difference. On a hormonal level is where the big difference is.

Matt:                     So with fibromyalgia, they’ve got the aches, the pains, the fatigue, and they can’t sleep. Okay? They have high cortisol. The cortisol blocks the serotonins, so they can’t switch off. The main difference between fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome is as they either go into a phase of conservation or a phase of exhaustion that cortisol drops, the serotonin goes really high. And then all they want to do is sleep.

Matt:                     So they’ve both got the pain, they’ve both got the fatigue, the difference is, is chronic fatigue syndrome’s got too much serotonin, and fibromyalgia’s not enough. Now, the problem with that is, if you give someone an antidepressant, that preserves serotonin, they’re going to react differently, depending on what phase of adrenal maladaptation they’re in.

Matt:                     Now no-one… well sorry, apart from Addison’s disease… so most people get to adrenal exhaustion phase or chronic fatigue phase, by going through a phase of over reactivity. So the problem is, as soon as they build up a… they just hover, they go between one or the other. So I can…

Matt:                     So, things like Cort RX, you would have to change the way you’re using it, depending on which phase you’re in. So if you are fully exhausted, and tired, and flat, and want to sleep all the time, the key is to use the Cort RX at night. When you’re in that fibromyalgia and you’ve got lots of pain and you’ve got a lot of anxiety, you’re a bit more wired but tired, that’s when you use the Cort RX one capsule, three times a day.

Matt:                     A cool feature is, with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia is the energy production pathways are defective in the mitochondria, they tend to build up a lot of lactic acids and acidic waste. Now acid settles when you settle. When you’re moving it’s not so bad, people complain, “Oh as soon as I got up I couldn’t move, and then once I warmed up I was fine.” So when you’re waking up at 4:00am with a racing heart, shallow breathing, manifestations of panic and anxiety, there’s two major causes for that. Oh probably a few more, but two more I can think of in this particular case.

Matt:                     One is an inner ear issue, and people with inner ear will often wake up in the middle of the night with a panic. Alternatively, it can be an accumulation of lactic acid because while you’re not moving, you’re not clearing the waste. So you still need the same amount of energy to sleep, as you do to wander around and do stuff throughout the day. So if you’ve got an energy defect, you’re actually building up the same amount of lactic acid lying still, as someone else might do running a marathon.

Matt:                     That lactic acid then has to get eliminated somewhere, you’re not going to get up and wee, you may or may not be sweating, it depends on the temperature. You start panting it out, you start getting palpitations and you start get tight and tense. What you want to do in that instance is buffer that acid with a really good quality magnesium product. So what you do, you do the Cort RX, so when you’re wired and you’re tired, use it through the day. But when you’re in the full fatigue hypersomnia, just use it at night to put you into a deep sleep.

Matt:                     Get rid of that other product that you’re taking, because I don’t know the levels of magnesium in it. We didn’t mention the name of it did we?

Jeff:                       No.

Matt:                     So I don’t know that, but we’ll send you out a ZMST to try, and I want you to do a ZMST, two capsules, three times a day.

Steve:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative), it’s high dose.

Matt:                     Two capsules, three times a day of ZMST. The Cort RX, change the dose depending on which phase you are, and you’ll get the hang of managing you, because you are in a phase of hovering between two syndromes. Hook into the Resilience as well, one capsule, three times a day.

Matt:                     So that’s what I’d do. Cort RX, Resilience, and some ZMST.

Jeff:                       And are we going to add a MultiFood?

Matt:                     Everyone needs a MultiFood.

Steve:                   Yes, goes without saying. Good for the energy cycles too of course.

Matt:                     Yes. Of course. It’s a cofactor for all those bits and pieces. I’ve got no problem with that other problem by the way, I just don’t know what’s in it, because we don’t make it.

Jeff:                       Matt and just a question for me though, is that would you consider potentially instead of or in association with the ZMST, given it’s fibromyalgia, giving the InfraRed?

Matt:                     Oh you could, that’s working on the energy production pathways, it’s buffering the acid, it’s a really good one, I mean lactic acid’s designed to buffer the metabolic effects of acid, for sure. But interestingly, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue are both been talked about as pain and fatigue syndromes with massive issues with the fascia. So the funny thing is, is the Noway collagen might actually help a lot more with that muscle tissue, the regeneration. The InfraRed’s brilliant because it would… but it’s almost cheating, you’re helping people’s energy production, you’re buffering up all the waste, I mean it’s pretty good. There’s no harm in it.

Jeff:                       Yes, or…

Matt:                     Yes, send it through, she’ll feel good.

Jeff:                       So just have one a day.

Matt:                     Yes just one scoop a day. If you have… it’s got three grams of beta alanine per serve, so most people get the prickles after it.

Jeff:                       Well that can happen, yes.

Matt:                     So it just depends. That’s why I’m funny with-

Jeff:                       I know, but we warn people about that, and the nice thing is that it is actually really good for buffering acid though.

Matt:                     Oh bloody right, yes.

Jeff:                       So the beta alanine, even though it does give you those horrible prickles, it is a great product.

Matt:                     Oh yes you’re right, because it will increase that muscle carnosine, buffering the acid as it’s made, really high quality electrolytes as buffering in and then it’s got that schisandra that buffers the acid in the liver and the lungs.

Steve:                   Yes, it’s good.

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:53:32] Yes, so just one probably, would you recommend maybe in the morning Matt? And then take your ZMST at night before bed?

Matt:                     Yes, because that acid I think that they’re feeling, I don’t think you can really prevent that in the middle of the night without fixing your energy production pathways. So, but you load up on those buffering agents, the ZMST. Just be aware that if you’re doing an InfraRed, it’s got a big dose of magnesium as well.

Jeff:                       That’s right.

Matt:                     So if you’re double dosing on ZMST, so I’d probably have the InfraRed a good hour or so away from your ZMST.

Jeff:                       Otherwise give you the squirts?

Matt:                     Otherwise you’re going to have the green apple splatters, yes. And if you do get the squirts from this I would probably just move the ZMST closer to before bed, or move the ZMST further away from the InfraRed, but still try to get that levels in.

Jeff:                       Yes, cool.

Steve:                   Wow, good one.

Matt:                     Yes it’s fun.

Jeff:                       All right. We’ve got time for one more.

Steve:                   Good.

Jeff:                       Okay this one’s from Maria.

Matt:                     Hey Maria.

Jeff:                       “Hi Jeff and Matt.” No Steve. Get stuffed Steve.

Matt:                     Yes sorry Steve, sit there quietly.

Steve:                   Sorry.

Jeff:                       “I absolutely love the podcast”-

Matt:                     But I hate Steve. Oh what?

Jeff:                       … “you are so knowledgeable and I wish I had found you guys years ago. Literally one of the only health professionals that I trust and after many misunderstood experiences with conventional doctors and naturopaths.

Jeff:                       I’m 29 years old female who has had numerous ongoing health issues since childhood. I’ve been working on my health for the past five years but I’m making little improvement. Below is the list of my symptom history: eczema, asthma, and dermatitis when I was a child/teen, all of which I no longer suffer with. Developed acne, bladder infections, [inaudible 00:54:57] insomnia, chronic fatigue, inability to hold water, frequent urination and thirst, endometriosis, and PCOS in my teens, which are ongoing.

Jeff:                       I took countless antibiotics for acne and bladder infections, the contraceptive pill and two rounds of Roaccutane in my teens. I had surgery for endometriosis when I was 16. Since my teens in my endo and my gut have been progressively getting worse, the pain during the first three days of my period is unbearable and although I don’t experience pain during the rest of my cycle, my gut is constantly irritated and I have frequent stools up to five per day, which are often loose.

Jeff:                       I also have an issue with fats, probably because of the Roaccutane, and no longer tolerate dairy at all. This also makes sense, my acne is worse. I have tried low-carb and paleo diets, which I do feel made a difference in my symptoms, however I would often wake up at 3:00am with a surge of adrenaline. I believe I am best suited to a balanced whole foods, dairy free diet, from my own personal experimentation.

Jeff:                       I feel like my body is in a constant state of stress, even though I am not stressed, and I practice mindfulness every day. I feel consistently fatigued, but wired, it’s horrible. My libido literally died over the space of weeks, not exaggerating, at the age of 24, and has been a massive issue in my relationship.

Jeff:                       I have seen a naturopath for three years and spent thousands on fees and supplements. Overall he didn’t make much difference in my wellness. He experimented with treating me with methylation issues, lectins, oxides, and more, which had no impact on my symptoms. I have had several tests done through him, and here are the relevant test results.”

Jeff:                       And Matt, I won’t read that all out… should I read that out?

Matt:                     No, you’re right.

Jeff:                       And there are the test results, there Matt, which you can obviously have a quick look at.

Matt:                     Yes.

Jeff:                       “In conclusion, I know my main issues are related to hormones, immune system and my gut. My questions for you both are, how does one have both endometriosis, usually associated with higher estrogen, and PCOS, associated with high androgens? I have a low BMI, so no weight issues, but have facial hair, acne problems, and problems with blood sugar. Would you recommend an inositol? How do you rebalance minerals and prevent calcium and phosphorus leaching from my bones and my teeth, my teeth are visibly worn, turning see-through with physical grooves and discoloration.

Jeff:                       How do I get my body out of this constant state of stress, is the inflammation causing the stress or is the stress causing the inflammation? It’s viscous cycle. And what is your personal views on enemas? I am currently about to treat myself for parasites and candida, but know this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Jeff:                       Please could you provide me with some advice on how to improve my health concerns. Thanks in advance and apologies for the long email, Maria.”

Matt:                     Oh it’s so tricky, and it’s actually… that was the chair.

Jeff:                       Sure.

Matt:                     It’s surprisingly common to see someone with an androgen excess in one part of the body and an estrogen accumulation in another. So for example we’ve got the pituitary gland in the brain that’s gathering the data from our hormones, and then sending messages to our body to say, “Make more of this, or less of that.”

Matt:                     So what happens, is if you have a look at polycystic ovarian syndrome, you look at acne, you look at facial hair and all that sort of stuff, they’re signs of excessive androgen associated with an insulin resistance syndrome, or a polycystic ovarian syndrome. But those things have got an excellent blood supply, they’re very close to where the blood is. So those hormones that are made, go back to the pituitary gland, so the pituitary gland’s picking up on all this testosterone in the ovaries and obviously getting back… sends a message out to the body, to make more estrogen.

Matt:                     Now, normally what would happen there is the ovaries would convert the testosterone they’ve already got, to estrogen. However, that’s the defect, or that’s the problem, with polycystic ovarian, it can’t. So what happens is the fat cells, or the liver, or the microbiome, or it might be a combination of all of them, say, “Hey, we can help you make some estrogen. We can recycle the estrogen that we’ve already made, make it come back and use it over and over again. I can send a message out to the fat cells on my booty there, to convert the testosterone they’ve got through to estrogen, and then that estrogen can have an estrogen effect.”

Matt:                     Unfortunately the estrogen on the booty doesn’t get back to the blood stream, do it never fixes the… sends a message back saying, “Hey, I know you’ve got too much testosterone in the ovaries there, but I’ve got a massive estrogen reservoir here for you to tap into, for estrogen,” but they don’t know it’s there. So the same imbalance keeps going and they become more compartmentalized. And the problem with that is, is we’ve been to a certain degree taught ways of predicting by body shape, if someone’s got an estrogen dominance. And it’s quite obvious if there’s an estrogen dominance, but you don’t know if the reason for that estrogen dominance in the periphery, is a testosterone dominance locally.

Matt:                     What it boils down to is you’ve got to fix the insulin resistance syndrome. You’ve got to fix the ovulation. You’ve got to fix the immediate stuff. Because the endometriosis is more likely a consequence of defective detoxification, and an attempt of the body to offset the buildup of testosterone from the polycystic ovarian syndrome. So you need to do work with a coach to create a diet and exercise strategy that keeps you in a glycogen deficit, to keep you insulin sensitive and keep your GLUT-4 pathways running so you don’t constantly have insulin floating around. Because it’s insulin that blocks the conversion and drops the sex hormone binding globulin and dropping the sex hormone binding globulin with insulin is going to make both PCOS and endometriosis and everything worse.

Matt:                     So, what you’ll find is a lot of those eosinophilias and other things she’s mentioned in there as well-

Steve:                   Elevated [crosstalk 01:00:37].

Matt:                     Those sort of things are all signs of excessive estrogen, pumping it through. So you’ll find you’re going to have areas of high testosterone which is associated with an insulin resistance, polycystic ovarian syndrome we use a product called T432. One capsule, three times a day, to try to improve the insulin sensitivity. There’s other things you can do, for example you could even add in something like berberine in this case, because-

Steve:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative), that’d be good.

Matt:                     … berberines are really cool, you can go and find your own berberine. I think it’s 250mg, two or three times a day, for the typical dose. Berberine’s cool because it elevates the sex hormone binding globulin, and that deactivates the actual-

Steve:                   Excessive hormones.

Matt:                     … the excessive hormones, and it’s cool because it also helps you with the microbiome, gets rid of the foggy head, there could be a candida recycling the estrogen, a lot of symptoms here suggest a potential candida overgrowth, the foggy brain and the… it says foggy brain in this one?

Steve:                   Well she’s got gut issues too, she’s saying. In fact she’s just about to go on a gut detox. So I know what I-

Matt:                     Yes, so you could do an anti candida, I’d do an anti candida. So we’ll send out GutRight.

Steve:                   GutRight, yes.

Matt:                     The cool thing about GutRight, is it’s also got the same co-factors necessary to aid the detoxification as we have in the Venus and the Prime. So in a case like this I wouldn’t use either the Venus or the Prime really, if we can use GutRight, we can use T432 Plus, and everyone should be on MultiFood.

Jeff:                       What about Resilience?

Matt:                     Oh, that’s actually a really good idea, because the turmeric and that sort of stuff in the Resilience, apart from being good anti-inflammatory and antioxidant, a lot of the pain that comes from endometriosis, is the dumping of iron into the abdominal cavity, and then the oxidation of that, so basically it rusts, and causes a lot of pain. And the turmeric’s been shown to be one of the best things for that. So that could be a good idea.

Jeff:                       I’ll take that. I was actually thinking-

Steve:                   No, it’s a good idea.

Jeff:                       … more for the effect of obviously the impact that it has on those nasty gut bugs.

Matt:                     Yes of course. And it breaks up that biofilm, so you can get rid of candidas. Typically when you look at anti candida diets, don’t be confused, mushrooms a fungi but it’s not candida. So don’t have to avoid fungus, yeast itself you don’t have to avoid, it’s actually what the yeast is found in, like breads and alcohols and that, that the candida thrives on, and in fact there is a yeast you should supplement with, which is Saccharomyces [crosstalk 01:02:48].

Steve:                   [crosstalk 01:02:48].

Matt:                     So basically candida feeds on sugar. And the more complex the sugar, the more likely it is to get to the candida.

Steve:                   Get to the gut, yes.

Jeff:                       What about an inositol, because she was asking about that. Obviously that’s-

Steve:                   That’s a good one.

Matt:                     That’s for sugar control, yes.

Jeff:                       Helps for liquids as well too, doesn’t it?

Matt:                     Yes there’s no harm in doing that, you could throw that in. I can’t remember the dose, but yes you can definitely throw it in, it works in well with the T432 Plus.

Steve:                   Yes, I can’t remember the dose either.

Matt:                     What was the other questions? My opinion on-

Jeff:                       Enemas.

Matt:                     … enemas, no thanks. Help this person a little bit more. Oh fuck, then I forgot a really important stuff that I’ve written down in through here. Check out your gallbladder. You have to check out your gallbladder. You have to understand, all this detoxification, she can’t process fat, she’s getting gut issues, [inaudible 01:03:35], all of this we’re talking about, the cholesterols, all of that sort of stuff, all of the metabolism, all these things, go through the bile. If you’ve got defects in making bile, you might have gallstones, you might have some issues there-

Jeff:                       What about [crosstalk 01:03:47].

Matt:                     … in TCM you’ve manifest with frustration, irritability, tension, crankiness, foggy head, headaches, all these sort of things, but more importantly, if your stools aren’t flowing ri… it’s bile that comes through that stimulates the peristalsis. The thing that reminded me about the gallbladder and bile is the old coffee enema. So the whole concept of coffee enema, caffeine stimulates the release of bile from the gallbladder, so it actually can help that flushing. But any kind of a exposure to fat in the gut, does.

Matt:                     I tell you a little tricky home remedy you can do, to see if your gut… if your indigestion is associated with inability to digest fats. Go to the grocery store, buy a bag of lecithin granules. Next time you eat a fatty food, what you’ll find if you feel nauseous from that, if you feel greasy and you’re about to get the green apple splatters or something, you get a couple of teaspoons of the lecithin granules, maybe a squeeze of lemon juice and some warm water. Drink that, and it pretty much relieves it instantly, if it’s an emulsification of fat issue.

Matt:                     But yes, check your gallbladder out, because if you’ve got gallstones or gravel then it’s an indication you can’t make bile properly, so you’re probably not detoxifying things properly.

Steve:                   And that’s why she’s got bowel problems, up to five a day. Frequent stools. Yes, that’s good.

Matt:                     Yes, because if you’ve got oil in there, your gut goes, “Oh man, I can’t br… I can’t…”

Matt:                     So all bile does is it makes big fat bubbles into little fat bubbles. So you can absorb the fat bubbles.

Jeff:                       Emulsification.

Steve:                   Yes it is, surfactant.

Matt:                     Yes, so without it, you get these greasy coating across your gut which then signals to the gallbladder saying, “Man, pump that stuff out.” It just can’t do it-

Jeff:                       So we’ve given her, action for that?

Matt:                     No. Yes, GutRight does all that.

Steve:                   Yes GutRight will help it.

Jeff:                       Okay.

Matt:                     GutRight and Resilience as well. Resilience a really good liver tonic.

Steve:                   Oh yes, it would be too, [inaudible 01:05:36].

Jeff:                       I don’t even need you two any more.

Steve:                   You’re on fire today.

Matt:                     Nailed it.

Steve:                   You’re on fire.

Jeff:                       All right, guys that’s all that we’ve got time for. Be back, next week-

Steve:                   Next week.

Matt:                     Last word Jeff.

Jeff:                       I’m a genius. That was several.

Matt:                     Really? You want that to be your last word? It wasn’t very confident.

Jeff:                       No, it wasn’t actually. No, well, I’ve got to pump up my own tires.

Matt:                     Yes.

Speaker 3:           Thanks for listening, and remember, Question Everything. Well, except what we say.