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Episode 206 – The Superbug Takeover

In this episode of the ATP Project, Jeff and Steve chat about ‘Super Bugs’ – These are the bugs that have over time become resistant to forms of treatment and are unable to be killed by antibiotics anymore, they chat about common treatment forms and the process as to how the bugs become ‘resistant’.


Podcast Index

00:01:07 – Podcast start
00:02:16 – Rise of the superbugs
00:05:15 – Bugs resistance to chemicals
00:05:45 – Strep throat and antibiotics
00:08:00 – C. Diff
00:09:47 – Autism and Faecal transmission – crapsules
00:12:31 – Vancomycin
00:13:54 – 4th generation antibiotics
00:16:10 – over prescription of antibiotics
00:18:23 – Challenging your immune system and building an immunity
00:19:31 – T-Helper 2
00:20:11 – side effects of antibiotics
00:22:56 – Probiotics and antibiotics
00:25:24 – golden staph
00:28:08 – Flesh eating bacteria
00:32:42 – Immune suppressant drugs
00:33:00 – Vancomycin-resistant Enterococcus
00:34:04 – antibiotics used on plants
00:37:23 – Nature fighting back
00:38:31 – colloidal silver
00:42:10 – Zinc and the immune system
00:48:27 – mercurochrome
00:53:17 – Boosting the immune system
00:54:30 – Immune adaptogens
01:05:44 – iTunes review
01:07:18 – FAQ


Jeff:                       Welcome to the ATP Project. Today we’re going to be talking about superbugs. Now superbugs, scientifically, are those bugs that you look under a microscope, and they’re wearing a little red cape. No, they are the bugs that can’t be killed by antibiotics anymore. It’s been a problem since World War II, and it’s growing and growing and it’s a little bit scary, but we’re going to give you some great solutions on how to fix that, so sit back and enjoy.

Jeff:                       As always, this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any condition and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information of this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start.

Speaker 2:           Welcome to the ATP Project. Delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax and open your mind as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.

Jeff:                       Welcome to the ATP Project, you’re with your hosts, Steve and Jeff. Good day mate.

Steve:                   Good day mate, how are you?

Jeff:                       Good, well here back from holidays, walking the Carnarvon Gorge about 500 miles or 750 kilometers from Brisbane, which was interesting.

Steve:                   And I heard you loved it.

Jeff:                       Oh mate. If it’s not five star, I’m not really into it, but the kids had a good time. We walked 20 kilometers and saw some pretty amazing stuff. Didn’t see any echidnas or platypuses though, so …

Steve:                   I know you wanted to see them before you left, but it didn’t work out?

Jeff:                       No. Saw some wallabies and that was cute.

Steve:                   And you saw some cave paintings?

Jeff:                       Yeah we did actually, went and saw the aboriginal cave paintings there, which is really cool.

Steve:                   Yeah it is cool.

Jeff:                       And some graffiti on there from 1952, which was horrible.

Steve:                   Graffiti?

Jeff:                       Yeah and then [inaudible 00:01:52] land and stuff because we haven’t respected it, so obviously there’s a lot of significance in those areas.

Steve:                   Wasn’t me in 1952, I was born in the summer of ’69.

Jeff:                       Right. Thank you. What is it, summer of ’69?

Steve:                   It’s a song.

Jeff:                       Brian Adams.

Steve:                   Brian Adams song. I was trying to give you an old 80s reference in.

Jeff:                       Yeah anyway. Rise of the superbugs. This is kind of like Rise of the Machines from Terminator 2. It’s funny because I remember listening to news and articles years and years ago, and this is when I was quite young, thinking, “By the time I’m 50, we’re all going to be wiped out by some kind of pestilence or plague,” and it’s funny because we know that news is there to scare the crap out of you. I mean that’s how it gets the ratings and we know that fear is … we’re pre-programmed, if you like, to worry about things.

Steve:                   ‘Course we are.

Jeff:                       Which is why negative news travels so quickly, because it’s what we need to stay alive. Don’t put your hand in the fire, you’ll get burned. Don’t do this, don’t do this and we’re like, “Okay okay.”

Jeff:                       So the whole thing is, though, is that there is some serious strains of bugs out there, Steve, that are getting out of control as far as western medicine is concerned.

Steve:                   Well that’s an understatement, yeah absolutely.

Jeff:                       And these are the things that used to worry me. Well, if western medicine is the pinnacle of, obviously, all science, which in many cases it is. If they’re worried about it, then we should definitely be worried about it.

Steve:                   We should be worried, because there’s so many infections now. Now a lot of the people out there might have heard of MRSA, which is a staph aureus, it’s been resistant to agpure and those sort of antibiotics and those sorts of things, but there’s many other superbugs out there. You know, C.diff, clostridium in the gut. That’s resistant. So there’s lots of them that are becoming resistant now and it’s getting worse.

Jeff:                       In today’s podcast I want to talk about some cool stuff, some frightening stuff and some interesting stuff. I don’t know if you’ve got anything because we just talk and say, “Hey Steve [crosstalk 00:03:49].”

Steve:                   Yeah, I’ve got some studies, but …

Jeff:                       Swine flu and H1N1 and flesh eating viruses and Vancomycin, is that the nuclear bomb of all antibiotics?

Steve:                   It was.

Jeff:                       It was.

Steve:                   Until we got Vancomycin resistant enterobes. We have VREs, which are obviously resistant to Vancomycin.

Jeff:                       And I shared that article with you of the rise of the superbug inside hospitals now, not staph, which I know golden staph is pretty bad.

Steve:                   Staph aureus, yeah.

Jeff:                       Where they actually went in and the guy died from it, I think. And they went and they swabbed the room. They basically had to rip out some of the ceiling, the whole place was completely infected by this bug that was in there. I can’t remember … Steve did I send that to you?

Steve:                   You didn’t send it to me, but it’s true because you’ve got to remember that when you’re in a hospital it’s all about hygiene. My wife’s a nurse, you wash your hands after every patient with usually Chlorhexidine, which is quite a strong antibiotic. And if you’ve seen the ads of the antimicrobials, it says it kills 99.9% of bacteria.

Jeff:                       What about that 0.01 Steve?

Steve:                   Well the 0.1 actually, what …

Jeff:                       Oh the 0.1, sorry not the .01.

Steve:                   The 0.1 is resistant to that particular whatever, antibiotic or antimicrobial is, so guess what that 0.1 does?

Jeff:                       It grows.

Steve:                   It grows to 100% again. And then you spray it again and it kills about 80%. Spray it again, 70%. And this is what happens, is that because the chemical itself, whether it be Chlorhexidine or something, doesn’t change, the chemical doesn’t change, it just gets resistant to it. And there’s a famous video done by Harvard University, you can Google it, where they have a plate of different strains, and you’re seeing them, the bug grows, stops and grows and stops. And eventually it just overruns the plate.

Jeff:                       Adapts.

Steve:                   Because there’s only 99.9%. When you take your antibiotics, people don’t know this. If you’ve got a serious bact … say you’ve got a strep throat, which is a bacteria. Very common to get antibiotics for a strep throat. Not a sore throat, there’s two differences, I can tell the differences a bit later. But if you get a strep throat which is a bacterial infection, the antibiotic, if it’s a good one, kills about 95 to 98 to 99% of the bacteria. And the other 1% or whatever’s left gets killed by the immune system, theoretically.

Jeff:                       Theoretically.

Steve:                   Theoretically except if you’re in a hospital where you’re immunocompromised or you’re sick and immunocompromised, then that bug grows on. And this is where you get the antimicrobial resistance, but with regards to … we do a little bit of history here, so as we know Fleming in 1928 invented penicillin, he discovered it by accident by the way. But he discovered penicillin, and this was a wonder drug and in the late 30s [crosstalk 00:06:26].

Jeff:                       And how was penicillin made? Again Steve, I always come back to nature knows best and you can’t outsmart nature, and if you try and manipulate the laws of nature, “It’s against the laws of nature.” That eventually nature adapts and it will find a way to bite you in the ass big time, because if like anything, the pendulum swings too far one way, it comes back with a rush. Like what we’ve spoken about before with intervention of things like glyphosate and [crosstalk 00:06:53] things like that as well, too. Is it glyphosate or glyphosthate? I always get those mixed up.

Steve:                   Glyphosate.

Jeff:                       Glyphosate, yeah. Because the pigweed now. We’ve spoken about that, nature effectively outsmarting manmade chemicals which work brilliantly for a while and great, but then all of a sudden as you say … and this is similar on the micro level as well. We come in and we wipe everything out, but there’s just those small little resistance that then adapt and they change and find a way to survive in an environment where everything else should die. You get into the bottom of the sea, which no light, no nothing. But yet there’s stuff that’s found a way to live down there.

Steve:                   They have, yeah.

Jeff:                       And it’s the same thing in volcanic areas and you know. Life finds a way to evolve and adapt and thrive in areas where it shouldn’t. So it’s the same, I think, here.

Steve:                   Well absolutely. And if you look at the fast replicating bugs like C.diff, and let’s look at glyphosate. When you consume glyphosate, because you do, it kills bugs inside your gut too. It kills them all except for Clostridia diff, or C.diff as we’ll just call it for the laymen here. Now what happens is if you get an overgrowth of C.diff, that stuffs up your dopamine metabolism, it stops the conversion of dopamine through to adrenaline. So what that does in your brain, is you get a buildup of dopamine in your brain and therefore you get conditions like Autism and ADHD.

Steve:                   So the treatment for that is …

Jeff:                       These are really powerful statements, Steve …

Steve:                   Oh it’s evident.

Jeff:                       And I can imagine a lot of people … because the nice thing is we’re getting a lot of doctors and healthcare practitioners, we’re getting a lot of feedback and write-in from there and it’s really nice because a lot of people are very open, obviously, to information. But Steve, where’s the science?

Steve:                   Alright. Well firstly you can measure if you’ve got C.diff in your gut, by doing a urinary organic test, we did a bit of this a few weeks ago. But basically if you measure for a chemical called para-Cresol, that p-Cresol is a chemical released by C.diff. So if you’ve got high levels of that, you’ve got high levels of C.diff, so you can measure. Secondly you can do a stool test. So it’s very observable. Thirdly it’s in the literature.

Steve:                   So when you get this thing that inhibits the enzyme dopamine beta dehydrogenase which is the enzyme that converts dopamine through to adrenaline, the medical treatment for that is to speed the adrenaline process up, which is giving the particular child amphetamines. Which is a very well study-

Jeff:                       Is it like Ritalin …

Steve:                   Ritalin is a, yeah. I don’t want to go medical names, but basically you give a child Ritalin and it speeds that pathway to get clear of the dopamine so they can focus again. Otherwise too much dopamine in your brain … we always think dopamine’s good, but too much of anything is bad. So they give the child amphetamines to speed it … now in my opinion you get the child out there running to make their own adrenaline, but that’s my philosophy. But that’s what’s medically given.

Steve:                   Now what happens is, if you get too much C.diff the other treatment, which was just published a few weeks ago, was … what they did was they took some fecal matter from a healthy individual and they put them in capsules and called them, excuse my language, crapsules in literature which is terrible. But they …

Jeff:                       Has got a ring to it, Steve.

Steve:                   Terrible ring to it. Anyway, they gave these children these crapsules and what happened was that after two years 45% of the autistic kids had virtually no symptoms left of Autism. That’s published in the literature, I’m not making up [crosstalk 00:10:11].

Jeff:                       How new is this study?

Steve:                   That was published about three weeks ago.

Jeff:                       This must be over mainstream news everywhere.

Steve:                   Well I hope so, I know about it, and I’m talking about it here, so [crosstalk 00:10:21].

Jeff:                       Where’d you hear about it?

Steve:                   I think I came across it when I was doing the podcast for the-

Jeff:                       But how was it not on mainstream media news?

Steve:                   This study was done on autistic kids that were either very severe, 82% of them were very severely autistic, and 18% were moderately autistic, anyway. And after two years of these taking … well they didn’t take the crapsules for two years, they just took one to recolonize. Then that was it. There was 45% cure rate, which a cure rate was considered virtually no symptoms, or virtually minimal symptoms. So it reverted all the way through to that.

Steve:                   So that’s pretty interesting. That shows the power of the gut. So it doesn’t cure everyone, but almost half is a pretty good response rate and it was considered the highest response rate of any medication, was …

Jeff:                       So effectively the people were diagnosed through this study, and this is a peer review [crosstalk 00:11:11] I want the links.

Steve:                   Yup it’s published in studies, yeah. Yeah email, I’ll send you the whole paper.

Jeff:                       50% and they used the word cured?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Jeff:                       Wow.

Steve:                   Because there was no symptoms.

Jeff:                       Wow.

Steve:                   And Autism is based on a symptom picture. And there’s a whole spectrum of them. There used to be different ones like Asperger’s, that’s been … it’s now just one big spectrum of them. Anyway they get very severe, or moderate or good autistic kids and these all went to either no symptoms or good, the 45%.

Steve:                   This is largely due to C.diff because C.diff blocks that chemical in the brain. We knew the chemical in the brain did it and we knew that you can get rid of this bacteria by, in the old days, giving Vancomycin, but guess what’s happened now?

Jeff:                       It’s resistant.

Steve:                   Resistant.

Jeff:                       So when does Vancomy … can you remember when that came out Steve? Because I remember that was …

Steve:                   Vancomycin 1993 I think.

Jeff:                       And that was the one they could almost kept in the glass with the little shatter thing, I mean I’m making a statement here, but it was the nuclear bomb. It would come in, if you needed it, it was pretty severe. But every time it worked, right?

Steve:                   Exactly.

Jeff:                       Now it doesn’t.

Steve:                   No and one of the reasons is, and I’m not dishing this as an idea, because Dr Doug, my father in law, works as a surgeon and joints [inaudible 00:12:22] the common prescription after a surgery to stop infections is to give them IV Vancomycin.

Jeff:                       Really?

Steve:                   Yeah just because …

Jeff:                       As a prevention?

Steve:                   Prevention because when you insert a metal into a joint, metals stimulate the growth of certain bacteria and microbes so Vancomycin is commonly prescribed to kill them. And the big debate was whether you give IV or oral, it’s not very well absorbed orally, which was good if you got a gut infection like C.diff. So it’s kind of good for that.

Steve:                   But IV is a very common prescription, so it’s given … because a lot of people get infections, and [inaudible 00:12:57] if you’re a patient and you said, “Listen, your chance of getting infection are pretty high. So we’ll give you a prophylactic antibiotics,” is the word for it, “and it’ll stop most infections.” And that’s what they do.

Steve:                   So it’s being used widely and used very routinely these days unfortunately.

Jeff:                       So we’re losing the battle then, against C.diff?

Steve:                   Yup. And of course now researchers at UQ, University of Queensland are now looking for the fourth generation antibiotic. But can you see what they’re doing? They’re chasing their tails.

Jeff:                       It’s upping the threshold. Well it gives them … and I always look at it this way as well. It’s like a pre-workouts, Steve. Like people start off and there’s a 100 mg of caffeine in this one, and someone comes out with 150, and then someone comes out with 200. And then all of a sudden you’re at 500 mg of caffeine a day, but the problem is that the adrenals are getting absolutely … there’s always the piper to pay, as they say, right?

Steve:                   They do.

Jeff:                       So the fourth generation of Vancomycin or whatever you want to call it, so yeah. Again it’s only a matter of time before that becomes overrun and what seems to happen is it seems to get overrun more quickly.

Steve:                   It does because of course …

Jeff:                       Seems to be effective for less period of time.

Steve:                   Yeah because simply it’s called natural selection in nature when this happens, but when this happens in a lab, of course you kill most of the bugs but not all of them. And the ones that it doesn’t kill just grow back. It’s not rocket science to figure that one out. And of course these things, the bacteria also adapt different mechanisms to get rid of the toxin because as antibiotics work, they usually work on the cell wall.

Steve:                   There’s two types of antibodies, one that kill antibiotics and one that stops their replication. Now if they stop their replication, the immune system will clean up the rest.

Jeff:                       Should.

Steve:                   Yeah, should.

Jeff:                       If the immune system’s not compromised.

Steve:                   Exactly, and you’ve got to remember that there’s a lot of people these days that are on drugs that suppress the immune system, that weren’t around many … like when I had my arthritis, 20 plus years ago, there weren’t the immuno suppressant drugs that there are now for those arthritic patients. So they’re anti TNF blockers and cyclosporines and these sorts of things that suppress the immune system on purpose, so as it stops the immune system hurting you. In my day it was just anti inflammatories, it was Indomethacin galore and that was it.

Steve:                   So I understand that the new medicines that … also people might, one of my friends had a kidney transplant from his sister, needed one. And he’s on immuno suppressants for the rest of his life. So if he gets an infection, he has to go to hospital. So they don’t give him Vitamin C in hospital, they give him antibiotics because even if it’s a virus, now as people may or may not know, viruses aren’t affected by antibiotics because they simply don’t have a cell wall.

Jeff:                       Yeah that’s right.

Steve:                   They live inside the cells.

Jeff:                       And that’s a problem we’ll get into, is the overprescription of antibiotics which is obviously a major issue, especially when you see educated people giving antibiotics for things like viruses which they should never be doing.

Steve:                   Yeah and I’ve got a graph here that I’m going to give to our graphic design person, look he’s giving a closeup already. And this is for people with sore throats. Okay now sore throats could be caused by a virus, which they usually are. The rhinovirus or the cold virus. It lives in your nose, rhino.

Steve:                   Or a bacterial one, which has different symptoms, so we’re going to put that in the magic of television, use this graph to show you which one it is, and what symptoms. You know if you see puss on your tonsils, that’s strep throat and that can be treated with antibiotics because streptococcus infections can go to the heart, cause rheumatic fever. But if you’ve got a sore throat, it’s red and the vulva’s not inflamed, you haven’t got puss there, antibiotics are useless.

Jeff:                       And the thing is, Steve as well, I think a lot of the time we’re so focused on … it really is like pulling out a nuclear weapon to kill a fly. And again a lot of people who try and understand this, no pain no gain? So this whole thing about illness and not being ill. Illness and sickness really is a part of life and if it challenges the immune system, even though it’s not comfortable, it’s actually good for you.

Jeff:                       What concerns me, I guess is with people who, for example the flu and getting flu shots and things like that, is that the challenging of the immune system is done through adjuvants and other things like that, but is there … and maybe even other diseases like Chickenpox and Measles, I know that’s a big one at the moment as well.

Steve:                   It is.

Jeff:                       I heard somebody saying the other day, “When I was younger I got Measles,” and they’re saying, “And that’s terrible that potentially you could die from it.” And I think they were saying that it was one in a 1000 people …

Steve:                   You can develop Meningitis or inflammation very rarely. There was a flight attendant who developed it, just on the news today, and they didn’t think it was that because simply she’d had her vaccine shots for that so they ruled it out. And then of course they did the virology, which is looking at what viruses, and she had the … so that’s a bit scary …

Jeff:                       We’re getting pretty close to a can of worms so I’m going to leave that, but what I was going to say though, is that in terms of having your immune system challenged with whatever disease, you build up antibodies to it. Like Chickenpox, my son had Chickenpox when he was very young. He got one spot or two spots and now he’s got immunity for life. As opposed to the vaccination which gives you protection for normally about 10 years or so. So they don’t actually have a lifelong immunity per se.

Jeff:                       And that’s the problem, I think with a lot of the overprescription of medications, is that we’re so concerned with the avoidance of, how would you say, natural illnesses. And again I’m not saying you should be sick but we need our immune system to be strong so that we can cope. It’s like the hygiene hypothesis that they had in England where they went through and they used antibacterial wipes in all the kitchens and everywhere and everything, and little Johnny was playing inside. As soon as he went out to school, he absolutely got smashed because his immune system was so weak. There was nothing that had challenged it the whole time.

Steve:                   Absolutely.

Jeff:                       That old thing about letting kids get out in the dirt and play and be exposed to certain bugs and what have you, is actually a good thing.

Steve:                   Well they first discovered that when they realized that kids who grew up on farms had vastly less asthma, which is a classic T helper 2 allergy type, as you say hygiene hypothesis, and then they went, “Hmm, why is that?” And then they figured it all out and worked backwards from there.

Steve:                   So that’s a classic thing. And antibiotics unfortunately also drive up T helper 2 so a lot of people say, “Oh I’m allergic to penicillin.” Have you heard that one?

Jeff:                       Yeah I have.

Steve:                   They could be allergic to penicillin, I’m not saying they’re not. But also penicillin has a terrible habit of driving up the T helper 2 side of the immune system because it’s virtually a fungus itself. It drives up the T helper 2 aspect of the immune system, so it causes allergies as well as being an allergen. So it can be problematic. There are some very very nasty side effects to antibiotics. Really really [crosstalk 00:19:38].

Jeff:                       Let’s get into some of those. And then I want to get into the fun stuff, Steve. Well not if you’ve got flesh eating viruses, or … and maybe some of nature’s natural answers to some of these things. Because again, there’s some pretty cool wisdom back in the ages of being able to treat these things naturally, especially if it’s not massively severe. But the problem is, is that it almost seems like, because we’re coming out so heavy handed on the minor things, that we’re kicking the can down the road so to speak and that can is picking up momentum and getting bigger and bigger. And it’s not a can anymore, it’s like a bloody truck, that truck that’s going to absolutely smash it.

Steve:                   Absolutely, and you’ve got to remember where antibiotics came from. Sure, penicillin was discovered in a lab accidentally, but most of them was from soil. Antibiotics are developed from soil, so when they discovered that antibiotics were found in soil or bugs that acted like an antibiotic, this lab was asked, “Just send me soil samples from around the world,” back in the 20s and 30s. Now obviously they wouldn’t do it these days, quarantine things.

Jeff:                       Of course.

Steve:                   But then of course, back then they just said, “Yes send us soil.” And they found some from certain areas that were powerful and that’s how antibiotics developed.

Jeff:                       Really?

Steve:                   Yeah, they came from soil.

Jeff:                       So they actually came from soil.

Steve:                   Yeah of course.

Jeff:                       But now obviously they’re completely synthetically made.

Steve:                   Yeah, well once they found out what the chemical was, you can make it synthetically in a lab. Absolutely, but that’s how you discover … a lot of natural medicine comes from … a lot of medicines come from nature, in fact most of them do. Even the aspirins, the statins all of these …

Jeff:                       Which is white Willow bark?

Steve:                   Yup. So it’s alba the herb, and it’s got …

Jeff:                       The statins that was yellow, the stuff in Peking duck? The red stuff that’s …

Steve:                   Red yeast rice extract.

Jeff:                       Red yeast rice, that’s right which is banned I think? Is it?

Steve:                   Oh yeah, there is a story behind that. The reason with that was they …

Jeff:                       It works.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Jeff:                       And hang on, we can’t have any competition to our pharmaceutical industry.

Steve:                   Well it’s a very funny story and I’m a little bit off topic, but basically the statins are patented, simvastatin it’s patent drug. And they found out that it’s the same chemical as in red rice yeast, so they banned red rice yeast because it’s a conflict for the patent.

Jeff:                       Hang on a minute, didn’t nature have prior art? I’m sure mother nature is not particularly happy at you that she can’t go to court.

Steve:                   And initially they banned it and then someone appealed and said, “No no no it’s found in our natural thing,” “Oh okay, well,” and they let it back in. [crosstalk 00:21:49]. Yeah.

Jeff:                       That’s good news.

Steve:                   Because it was banned for a while when I worked for another company and then it came back.

Jeff:                       Nice.

Steve:                   So that’s the reason why. Isn’t that ridiculous?

Jeff:                       Yeah it is.

Steve:                   So quite funny, but here’s some of the common … here’s a paper on [inaudible 00:22:01]. Now you’ve got to remember the side effects for antibiotics are usually gastro intestinal, it kills bacteria indiscriminately in your gut and if you kill all the good stuff, it doesn’t kill C.diff, so you end up with an overgrowth of C.diff.

Jeff:                       Yeah and this is the problem, isn’t it? Again with a lot of these things is that, yeah you wipe out everything indiscriminately, which is where obviously the probiotic market came and said, “If you’re using antibiotics, you need to repopulate your gut.” Which is one area we do agree that probiotics can be very very beneficial if you’ve had any kind of upset to your … through medicine.

Steve:                   Absolutely.

Jeff:                       You got to repopulate it with the good stuff.

Steve:                   Yeah because with the autistic kids, what we know about them is they have loads of C.diff usually and they have very little bifidum bacteria and proteobacteria. And so that’s what the fecal transplant study said, “Oh we’re giving those ones back,” and it’s kind of like, yeah but why are they unbalanced in the first place? And what they summarized was possibly over antibiotic use.

Steve:                   Because you got to remember, kids get a lot of infections and a lot of them get given antibiotics and it does upset the gut bugs. I don’t think anyone argue that anymore. I don’t think … but there are some other unusual side effects like encephalopathy and seizure. So water on the brain and seizures, that’s a nasty side effect of an antibiotic. I’m just going through the paper here quickly.

Steve:                   Cardiovascular system what’s called QT influence problems, so problems with your heart. ‘Course digestive systems. The endocrine system, is that also stuffs up your hormones, stuffs up your respiratory system as well. Reproductive system. Musculoskeletal system and renal system, very bad for your kidneys of course, as well.

Steve:                   And like you talk about Vancomycin, one of the greatest side effects for Vancomycin in hospitals that give IV is they get what they call red man syndrome, and I’m not making that name up. You can Google it. Basically it turns people red because they get a massive histamine reaction, because remember T helper 2.

Jeff:                       Driving up the other side of the seesaw.

Steve:                   T helper 2 drives up the beta cells which turn into plasma cells. Plasma cells degranulate to release the mast cells. Mast cells degranulate to release histamine and histamine causes massive vasodilation so they become red. Just red.

Jeff:                       With a massive erection. Well I mean if it increases …

Steve:                   I haven’t looked under the sheets of these patients, but yeah well …

Jeff:                       That’s where you’re going wrong, Steve.

Steve:                   Yeah I know. It’s just awesome.

Jeff:                       I’m sure [Beck 00:24:19] does.

Steve:                   Oh look, I’m sure she does. She’s in the hospital all the time. She’s horrified by these infections. This is what the hospitals are horrified with, being closed down because of MRSA or one of the other antibiotic bugs and that sort of thing.

Steve:                   But I want to take you a little bit of history here-

Jeff:                       I avoid hospitals like the plague. As much as I possibly can. Because I’m terrified of the superbugs that live in these hospitals. It’s probably a phobia that’s maybe a little bit out of balance, but …

Steve:                   I don’t know because this study I pulled up here basically … and the title Penicillin Resistance to Staphylococcus Aureus which is golden staph. And it’s [inaudible 00:24:53].

Jeff:                       Staph’s a bastard, isn’t it?

Steve:                   Oh yeah. Well it wasn’t, now it is. So basically this study, you might think, “Oh when was this published?” 1945 was that first recognized and published in literature. Because in 1928 when penicillin … and it was manufactured largely in the late 30s in response in World War II. So if you were in the trenches and you got a bullet wound or a cut, you got an infection of usually golden staph. Golden staph lives on the skin in most people up the nose. It’s there, even the resistant staph’s there and it usually causes no symptoms. But once it gets into the blood through a cut, if you’re at war getting shot or whatever else happens to you, then it gets in the blood and you can die from it. Septicemia.

Steve:                   So the World War II vets used to carry around penicillin which Matt was telling me about how they used to carry them around. So if you got any infections, you just took penicillin. We got to remember, they didn’t know in … because World War II ended in ’45 so this from the first place … because back then, you got an infection, you had this magic medicine that would clear it up. And it usually would. Simple penicillin.

Steve:                   Now there’s generations upon generations, but back then it used to clean it up but they started recognizing it as a problem in 1945. 1945 it became resistant so of course, that’s scary.

Jeff:                       That is scary.

Steve:                   Because of course that’s been going along for a lot of years and of course they know it all, they’re going to make a stronger antibiotic or a different one. And of course that’s when they got all the soils together and found different ones and then the tetracyclamines came out and these things like Bactrim and all these other ones came out. And they are very ineffective. Erythromycin which is an antibiotic used for propranolol bacterium acne, used to be put on the acne, used to kill it. Now they’ve withdrawn it from the market, it’s that resistant, it’s completely ineffective.

Steve:                   So tetracyclamines used to be prescribed for antibiotics for acne, now that doesn’t work. So there’s so many resistance, not just to bad infections, but to some of these, these really interesting ones.

Jeff:                       Well let’s get into some weird ones then. Have you got any weird one … I mean as I said we were talking about this, and some of the stuff that’s out there, like the flesh eating virus, I mean these ones kept to the imagination because I don’t want to see pictures, but some of the guys in the office were talking about it, and they said with people with their faces half eaten off.

Steve:                   Well flesh eating bac-

Jeff:                       One person had their nut sack completely …

Steve:                   Yeah we’ve got a graphic of that, we’ll just-

Jeff:                       No!

Steve:                   I’m just joke … makes you uncomfortable, thinking about that. But yeah.

Jeff:                       I think most of the men are getting a bit squirmy at the moment.

Steve:                   Oh absolutely, but look the flesh eating bacteria is just again a bacteria that should be harmless. It’s just that it becomes so resistant to these antibiotics that it doesn’t become more angry, it just is let loose. And because skin is not very … it’s vascularized, but a lot of the immune system can’t get there. These flesh eating bacterias, there’s a number of them, can actually go in there and just eat you away and the antibiotics are resistant to it.

Steve:                   In the olden days, you could give penicillin to that and it would kill it because it just used to kill the standard bacteria wall that wasn’t mutated, so it just was a normal wall and penicillin would kill that. It would just stop it reproducing and the bug would just eventually die from old age.

Jeff:                       So what are the likelihoods of you contracting something like this or a superbug or something else like that, and where are you going to contract it from, Steve?

Steve:                   Alright so lets look at MRSA, the classic one, the staff aureus. You’ve probably already got it on your skin and up your nose and it’s probably already resistant. This is the scary thing. Now the good news is that if you cut yourself, you would bleed and you would …

Jeff:                       Flush it away.

Steve:                   Flush it away and all this sort of stuff, so typically you wouldn’t become infected with that sort of stuff. But if you’re sick, elderly or you’ve had an immune insult, whatever that is, you’re on an anti rejection drug and you get MRSA in your system and it is a resistant MRSA, you will likely die. And by 2050 they reckon that about 10 000 000 people worldwide will die of these bugs alone. Now it’s less than a million.

Jeff:                       So a tenfold increase. And that sounds like it’s going to hockey stick from there.

Steve:                   Yeah absolutely and that’s scary.

Jeff:                       That is scary. I also heard with tetanus as well, there was something interesting, actually an expert came out and said, “Look, all this people concerned about getting tetanus and taking vaccination for tetanus,” and he was an expert, he said he completely disagrees with it. He said, “Because of oxygenation,” he says, “if you flush it out with water, or even hydrogen peroxide, the cut, there is an,” and he said, “the amount of tetanus, typically it’s in farmlands and stuff like that, it’s not just in any bits of soil and things with rust and stuff like that.” Have you heard this?

Steve:                   Yeah I did. Tetanus is, the classic one is lockjaw. [crosstalk 00:29:47] cause lockjaw and that sort of thing. So basically …

Jeff:                       But the chances of actually getting it if you do proper wound management …

Steve:                   Pretty low.

Jeff:                       Are extremely low.

Steve:                   Well it’s an anaerobe, so if you clean it with hydrogen peroxide which is H2O [crosstalk 00:29:58].

Jeff:                       Even water?

Steve:                   Yeah, it’s got oxygen in it. So the free oxygen in hydrogen peroxide which is probably [crosstalk 00:30:03] just kills it because it’s exposed to oxygen. And that’s what a lot of these anaerobe …

Jeff:                       Is it the same thing with the staph as well? Or it doesn’t because it’s living on your skin, it’s …

Steve:                   It’s an aerobic bacteria, so it lives in the air which is fine. You’ve got to remember, you’ve got lots of bacteria on your skin. Everyone’s got propranolol bacterium acne on their skin, but they haven’t got acne vulgaris because it just hasn’t got the other conditions that are associated with its growth. So these bugs, it’s not necessarily how bad they are, it’s how the terrain is coping with it.

Steve:                   So it’s very very interesting. So there is a lot of hysteria about these bugs but it really affects the elderly and the sick and these sorts of things, and unfortunately a lot of these people are in hospitals and that’s where the worst bugs are. So if you can avoid hospitals like the plague …

Jeff:                       Which I do.

Steve:                   Yeah, and so this moves into another realm which is [crosstalk 00:30:55].

Jeff:                       I think most people try and avoid hospitals unless they work there, Steve. I mean let’s face it. It’s not where you’d go for a high time.

Steve:                   Holiday, no no you wouldn’t. But a lot of people go there without doing much to prevent themselves from going there for example most people that still die in Australia, or in America, their case is cardiovascular disease, which is largely preventable. So if you want to avoid hospitals, practice preventative medicine. Take the supplements, all these sorts of things. Eat well. Live well. Exercise.

Jeff:                       Get out and exercise, that’s exactly right.

Steve:                   And this is a big deal because less than 1% of the Australian health budget is spent on preventative medicine. And the hospitals are expensive. They got very highly paid nurses, they [crosstalk 00:31:38].

Jeff:                       Steve, we just need better and more drugs.

Steve:                   Yup.

Jeff:                       That’s what’s going to save us.

Steve:                   Well that’s where they’re going. And if you are a drug company and you can come out with a more potent Vancomycin or something like that that kills the next superbug …

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:31:52] billions.

Steve:                   You are going to make a fortune. So there is not much, and I sound like a crackpot, tinfoil thing, but if you can develop that drug, you are going to kick ass. It’s like the immune suppressant drugs. Very very very valuable for certain areas, but they’re starting to be used for things like arthritis now. Methotrexate is an immune suppressant drug, it’s a chemo therapeutic drug as well. Side effect, kills the immune system, oh beauty.

Jeff:                       I was going to say you get a trade off. There’s always a trade off.

Steve:                   There is a trade off.

Jeff:                       So Steve.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Jeff:                       Any other superbugs out there that we need to be, that you want to call by name or that you need to be wary of?

Steve:                   Alright. Vancomycin resistant enterococcus is one of the bad ones. Because it’s one that lives in your gut and it’s really really bad, it’s growing at huge rates and of course being Vancomycin resistant, that’s the breaking glass in case of emergency antibiotic that’s really not anymore. But it’s the one that you really really have to be aware of because enterococcus is basically in the gut and it can easily grow and easily cause infections in the body and kill you. So that’s a really bad one, too.

Steve:                   This is really scary stuff, and that’s simply because Vancomycin is really being, I don’t know if overused, but it’s being prescribed widely now.

Jeff:                       So in terms of antibiotics, and this is something I only learned recently as well, is that obviously doctors get a lot of flack from overprescribing antibiotics-

Steve:                   And so they should.

Jeff:                       Realistically, though Steve, that’s only the tip of the iceberg. Because it’s actually in livestock, but that’s only a relatively small portion in consideration to how much antibiotics are actually used on plants. And this is the absolute hidden iceberg. We talk about doctors overprescribing it, and some do, we’re talking about overuse with vets and farmers on animals, which is true. But it palls into insignificance, the graph that I was looking at, and again I’m sorry I don’t have it with me, it was two thirds of antibiotics actually I think were used on plants. And then we’re consuming this material.

Jeff:                       So, and again, when you look at some of the emerging markets as well, or through I think it was China, the amount that are used just dwarf everything else and it makes all the rhetoric around … and this, I kind of look at that and I feel almost a little bit helpless because we understand that people are getting the message in the west. Okay let’s not overuse it, and consumers as well as doctors are becoming more circumspect to use it, if that makes sense?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Jeff:                       But just hell for leather it’s being used on crops overseas, and even in Australia and even in the west as well. It doesn’t matter.

Steve:                   Yeah absolutely. And of course, then of course the plants, used on the plants but it’s also the plants are then eaten by the animal, and then the animal’s given antibiotics because … you’ve got to remember herd animals live in, surprise surprise, herds. Which means you can get spread infections quite easily. So they’re given routine antibiotics to stop the spread of infections. You know, Joe Sixpack like me eats the animal and gets an antibiotics dose, and that’s where we’re getting antibiotics from. And it’s not good.

Steve:                   A lot of chickens, for example live in coups and they’re all crowded up together and they’re given antibiotics in their food, and of course also disrupting the gut microflora, that also helps them put on weight. So the farmer sells it by the weight and they make more money out of it. So it’s an economic decision, not a health decision. Partly health but economic as well.

Jeff:                       The amount of … how would you say, economical and ecological vandalism that’s happening in the world at the moment, I know there’s a big outroar at the moment from a lot of vegans that they were protesting against the meat industry. And look, I’m all for animal husbandry and again I appreciate some of these practices are just horrifying to look at. At the same time if you look at the vandalism on plants and foods as well, that needs to stop. We need to go back to nature the way that we should be farming and using farming practices, and rotating crops.

Jeff:                       I know, though, that it’s difficult to eat local and green and it takes a lot more effort and again, it’s just I guess fairyland to think that as a globe, as a community we’re going to do that. But there are little pockets of people bringing out these [inaudible 00:36:28] style living with their eating locally and they’re looking after the soil and they’re looking after the plants. They’re not utilizing the pesticides and the fertilizers and other things like that, or the chemical based ones which … geez I reckon I can see myself there in a few years, too.

Jeff:                       But so let’s talk about nature fighting back against some of these things.

Steve:                   Yes good.

Jeff:                       And we’ve mentioned it before, I’m not that well educated, but we use Thieves oil as a general antibacteria, antiseptic sort of a thing. And I know Matt’s fascination with that back in the, that came back in the plague time, when everyone was dying of the plague and these guys with the long noses used to have Thieves oil put down the bottom, so you can probably talk about that. Colloidal silver, which is a personal favorite of mine and I think so fantastic and definitely people should be looking at nature’s alternative to some of these things.

Jeff:                       And as I said before, I know that when the Bali bombing happened where all the Australians were killed in that nightclub, that they had too many dead to … they were overwhelming the morgues so what they did was they actually put a fine mist spray of colloidal silver over the bodies to stop them from decomposing because they couldn’t put them into refrigeration. And that actually did help to preserve them and stop the spread of infections so we know that these things are viable to a point.

Steve:                   They are. And just starting, we’ll go on colloidal silver, there is lots of evidence and I’ve got one, two, three, four scientific papers here on colloidal silver, showing that they work against the enterococcus faecalis which is the Vancomycin resistant enterobe. Kills it.

Jeff:                       So Vancomycin, the former darling or superpower of the west pharmaceutical medicine, which used to do a job but now has become no longer an a-bomb, but probably more like a [crosstalk 00:38:31] firecracker versus colloidal silver which has been used for centuries.

Steve:                   Yeah it has been.

Jeff:                       Well, millennia.

Steve:                   Yeah millennia. And the beautiful thing about colloidal silver is there’s no resistance to it. Simply because it works differently to the …

Jeff:                       Now my understanding is that it removes the oxygen source, and iron?

Steve:                   That’s pretty much it. Yeah it binds up the iron and it also removes, it’s aerobic and anaerobic capacity. It stuffs up the mitochondria basically of the bacteria. And it kills viruses too. So basically it stuffs up their metabolism, so it works completely different to an antibiotic. So basically if you stuff up the metabolism of a bug, it won’t survive. An antibiotic, it can kind of metabolize and change and get these different things but these things it can’t really get resistant to that.

Steve:                   Now, forever? Don’t know. But that’s what the current evidence says, and it works very well with zinc as well as a good combination.

Jeff:                       Why with zinc?

Steve:                   Zinc works in another way because zinc has a great way of boosting the immune system, particularly Interleukin-2.

Jeff:                       Yeah I think what the studies were suggesting was a 500% increase in the … is it the microf … what are the little generals that tell everybody the …

Steve:                   T helper cells?

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Steve:                   They’re the generals and basically T helper 1 secretes Interleukin-2 which basically activates the macrophages and those sorts of things, and the natural killer cells would kill things.

Jeff:                       So the combination of silver to kill, and zinc to boost your immune system.

Steve:                   And that’s then-

Jeff:                       Because you mentioned vitamin C before and I was going to laugh because we know that a lot of people … and this is what annoys me as well, when they got a cold they reach for vitamin C and I think … I don’t know it might have been before you came on board, Steve, but the increase in the immune system and the duration of the cold was approximately about an hour. The impact of vitamin C on the immune system was extremely, extremely low.

Jeff:                       Now obviously if you’re deficient in vitamin C, that’s one thing but to boost vitamin C above the RDA which is tiny amounts.

Steve:                   Yeah 60 mg.

Jeff:                       It virtually had no effect whatsoever.

Steve:                   Very little.

Jeff:                       If you’re getting sick, don’t reach for vitamin C, go get some quality zinc.

Steve:                   Absolutely. Zinc is great because there’s two ways that nature can kill bugs. Firstly it’s like this silver, which is just going out and killing it.

Jeff:                       Yeah, smashing it.

Steve:                   Smashing it.

Jeff:                       Exogenously, right?

Steve:                   Exactly, or there’s ways that I like which is boosting our own immune system because the difference between our immune system is it can adapt to the bug. It can change. It can release different antibodies, different this sort of thing, and it can adapt to the bug. And that’s where you get these things called dendritic cells or [crosstalk 00:41:06].

Jeff:                       Dendritic cells, that’s what I was thinking of, sorry.

Steve:                   Dendritic cells or antigen-presenting cells basically engulf the particular bacteria in this case, and it presents an antigen. It says to the immune system, “Hey guys, this is the thing we’re after.” And so the immune system says, “Aah that’s what it is, great.” And it carries on and kills that particular thing, and that’s how specific it is.

Jeff:                       And when you’re feeling crappy, is that the interleukin? [crosstalk 00:41:31] what is it that makes you feel really …

Steve:                   Gamma interferon.

Jeff:                       Right so this is part of the thing. You might start taking zinc, you might start getting a sore throat or a flu or what have you. The healing process comes with you feeling like crap. Which I think is also designed to slow you down a little bit.

Steve:                   It is.

Jeff:                       Typically you don’t feel as hungry as well, and again that’s also showing especially moderate fasting to be powerful for healing lots of stuff as well. So it has to happen for a reason. The whole thing about again, you’ve got a fever, oh quick let’s take some Panadol so I don’t get a fever. Well the fever’s there to actually raise the body’s temperature so that it can actually help kill off the bug. We’ve got so soft in terms of oh any sort of pain, any sort of snotty nose. Okay that snotty nose is actually, quick let’s take some antihistamines to stop the nose from running, well it’s running to actually flush out the bugs, you idiot.

Jeff:                       We’re so concerned, oh we can’t, we have to go into work. No no bloody stay home so firstly you don’t spread it, take the time to rest and recover, bump up your zinc, get snotty, feel a bit crappy, have some chicken soup and watch some comedies. This is what I’d recommend, because a good healthy strong immune system doesn’t mean you’re never going to get sick, but hopefully you’re not going to get as sick as often and the duration of it is going to be less.

Steve:                   Absolutely, because you got to remember the immune system can adapt, antibodies can’t. Unless they’re in a lab, you change molecular … but the immune system adapts. So the immune system can kill all these really nasty bugs, they can, they just have to adapt to find out which way to do it.

Jeff:                       Imagine if we created a … let’s call it Evil Corp, right? It sounds kind of nice, got a nice ring to it. [crosstalk 00:43:11] what we want to do is we want to provide a quick fix to people that kill off any of the bugs, but also actually weaken their immune system over time and then those compounds become less effective over time, so we’ve got to develop new ones that have got a pass for … it’s kind of like perpetual …

Steve:                   You’re describing an industry that’s going on in this very day, that started in 1928.

Jeff:                       And I’m saying it tongue in cheek, because look there’s some amazing breakthroughs that are happening in western medicine. But there is a great deal of the western medicine that I don’t like because they’re not addressing the root cause, they’re looking for a temporary … and I think a lot of them know it but they refuse to acknowledge in many ways, and this is what makes me upset. A lot of doctors and a lot of scientists have now started to recognize in nature there’s some answers, which is great. What concerns me is when they try to find the answer in nature and then go, “But we can’t own that so we’ve got to make it into a chemical,” which then again always has a natural trade off, “because then we can make billions out of it.”

Jeff:                       And this is the thing with these groups out there which are effectively rubbishing natural medicine in that it’s all … what is it? Quackery and all the rest of it, Steve. There’s one such organization that you said you jumped on to their webpage to look at colloidal silver.

Steve:                   Quackwatch and they said that silver has got no scientific studies …

Jeff:                       And yet you’ve pulled up four right then and there.

Steve:                   Oh yeah and this is 2018 study, this was a 2016 study, a big review on the mechanistic basis of antimicrobial actions of silver in nano particles [crosstalk 00:44:53].

Jeff:                       It’s funny though because parts of industry have started to use it. I know that some sportswear are actually weaving silver thread into their … to actually help to combat odor. I know that some fridges are starting to put it in for some of their linings too to obviously help naturally combat odors and smells.

Steve:                   Yeah, it’s incredibly effective. And so …

Jeff:                       And cheap.

Steve:                   Oh very cheap.

Jeff:                       Let’s talk about the trade off there. Because there’s always trade offs right?

Steve:                   There is a trade off. If you swallow silver, a lot of it, and you keep doing it for months if not years, the half life of silver in the body is about a month. Varies on the people. But if you drink it and keep going, going, going and you haven’t got any infections and keep drinking it, you can turn a little bit blueish.

Jeff:                       Yeah, well there’s the guy and if you Google it, what’s the syndrome called, Steve?

Steve:                   Argyria.

Jeff:                       Ag … how-

Steve:                   Argyria, sorry [Agram 00:45:43] is the Latin for silver. Ag if you look up on the periodic table, Ag is silver, and aurum is gold, that’s where I came by the name Aurum oil, it’s a stupid chemistry name.

Jeff:                       It’s a great name.

Steve:                   Oh is it?

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Steve:                   Oh I thought I was being such a nerd.

Jeff:                       Well that’s why we used it. I think you and Matt are the only people that have named products outside of … I’ve named everything else, right? No, when I heard that, I’m like, “That’s actually quite smart.”

Steve:                   I can’t believe that stuff. But anyway, it’s just a chemistry nerd Au is gold, 79 on the periodic table if you want to look it up. But Agram, Ag is silver. So Argyria is when your skin turns a blueish gray and just Google smurf man.

Jeff:                       There is a guy and he’s famous.

Steve:                   There is a guy.

Jeff:                       And he looks absolutely ridiculous.

Steve:                   I think he died at 92 of a heart attack.

Jeff:                       Oh that guy died now?

Steve:                   Yes I think he’s dead now.

Jeff:                       Oh okay.

Steve:                   He died of a heart attack, it was unrelated to his silver toxicity. Because he just kept drinking it, and why? Because he felt great and he had terrible arthritis. And his arthritis was in his joints, now I don’t know which arthritis he had, but it sounded a bit like my one I had. And if you drink silver, silver’s 99% not absorbed in the human body, 1% is. And so it probably, and I’m just making this up, this is how it probably helped him. Probably killed the bug in his gut that was causing the arthritis and that’s how it cleared up his arthritis.

Jeff:                       Too much of a good thing, though Steve. I mean …

Steve:                   Yeah [crosstalk 00:46:59].

Jeff:                       I think blue is probably not the best thing.

Steve:                   They did call him smurf man and it would be pretty bad at the shool yard.

Jeff:                       So how much can you tolerate and how much do you want to take? Typically what I do with colloidal silver, and I’ve always done this, whenever I get a sore throat I gargle with colloidal silver. I cannot tell you the last time I actually, outside of you know that initial tickle that you get? I cannot remember the last time I had a sore throat where I couldn’t swallow or I couldn’t talk. I’m talking probably a decade. And that’s because every time it happens, I get …

Steve:                   Colloidal silver.

Jeff:                       Colloidal silver. Thieves oil as well to actually help with the initial tickle, and then the colloidal silver and literally I do that for probably the best part of half a day to a day. Before I go to bed at night, I put a little bit of colloidal silver on my throat but actually go to bed after brushing my teeth. And I wake up in the morning and I’ve got no problem.

Steve:                   Metals are well known to be antimicrobials. In the olden days when I was a kid, if you skinned your knee, you had Mercurochrome. Remember that?

Jeff:                       Yeah I do.

Steve:                   I don’t know if you were …

Jeff:                       And you used to paint it, and it used to have that sort of reddy brownish coppery color.

Steve:                   Well you got to remember because all the metals in the transition metals of the periodic table are colorful. Iron is a rust color. Gold is a gold color, and when silver rusts it’s basically a silver color. So very interesting color spectrum there, so this thing was very very colorful and you just painted it on and the chrome and the mercury would just simply kill the microbes.

Jeff:                       It had mercury in it?

Steve:                   Yeah. Mercurochrome.

Jeff:                       Mercurochrome, well there you go.

Steve:                   That’s why it’s not around anymore.

Jeff:                       Is it not around anymore? I was going to say, because I remember friends skinning their knees and them going home and they were covered in this sort of [crosstalk 00:48:41] around?

Steve:                   No, we used to dip them, because we used to stack our bikes all the time, and get in trouble for it. So we used to … it’s so different the kids these days, they don’t do any of this sort of stuff that we used to do. I got a big scar on my elbow there from trying to jump four rubbish bins, and my logic was that I could do three, so the next step is the fourth.

Jeff:                       Of course.

Steve:                   And there were all these things back then where [inaudible 00:49:07] all around, or you know those silver things.

Jeff:                       Metal ones.

Steve:                   Yeah the metal ones. So I’d landed in the last one a bit, so not such a good outcome.

Jeff:                       So you’ve got half of your arm hanging off?

Steve:                   Yeah and you put Mercurochrome and that should’ve had stitches I guess. But that’s what … nowadays the kids aren’t taught to play outside, and I grew up in suburbia Melbourne. But we were still in the dirt. I mean me and my mate used to go in his back yard and dig holes for the hell of it, do you know what I mean? And we would play in the dirt, and nowadays you’re inside and on an iPad. So you’re not exposed to these natural bugs and you don’t build up your immune system. And that’s why, and even if you add to that now the glyphosate with the antimicrobial action of that in the microbes, you end up with loads of C.diff.

Jeff:                       And you also then put in the advanced regime of injections, what are they called them?

Steve:                   Vaccines?

Jeff:                       Immunizations?

Steve:                   Oh immunizations, yeah.

Jeff:                       Which again means that people are not getting the natural bugs themselves, so their immune system is not challenged in that way. But there’s a whole lot of things where we’ve really changed. Our food’s changed, medicine’s changed. Overuse of antibiotics in our food, glyphosate, chemicals in the air. I mean go back 100 years, our bodies are probably dealing with hundreds if not thousands of chemicals every year that weren’t around 100 years ago.

Steve:                   No.

Jeff:                       Now interesting though is that the hygiene hypothesis have gone too far, because I think the hygiene obviously was part of the problem way back when.

Steve:                   Much so.

Jeff:                       But now we’ve gone too far the other way.

Steve:                   Absolutely you know you’ve got to remember most people died of infections in the 16th century and 17th century, of the plague. But once we figured out, well Pasteur figured out that bugs are there and they cause disease, now there’s the advents of these antibacterial wipes, antibacterial sprays, antibacterial toilet paper, antibacterial whatevers, and people are using them especially around they’re sterilizing this and washing your hands with antimicrobial soap.

Steve:                   Soap used to kill bugs because of the very high pH in the soap. And that was antimicrobial. But now they’ve got more scientific because that dries your hands, so you can’t have dry hands. So they give you a moisturizer with an antimicrobial in it which causes further resistance.

Jeff:                       Well the funny thing is that, I fly a lot Steve. And one of the things that I see a lot of people reaching for, I don’t blame them, is those antibacterial things, like you’re touching where other people are picking their nose and stuff. Pretty gross. But colloidal silver and/or Thieves oil, which we’ve given out the recipe before which is a really cool, and it smells nice too. Kind of come out smelling all clovey and cinnamonny.

Steve:                   Yeah it’s absolutely beautiful. So this bug phobia that we have is really turned too far, as you correctly said. But the level of it, and kids and everything, because you’re not being a good parent unless you’re antimicrobializing everything in the kitchen and whatever, and then you add on top of that. Let’s say you get a sore throat. Most people would take a … can’t think of a generic …

Jeff:                       A brand?

Steve:                   A brand that they suck on, a lozenger … trying to.

Jeff:                       A strep something.

Steve:                   Yeah something for your strep throat which is usually not a strep throat by the way but it rhymes with strep and of course that means that it becomes resistant to that one too, because you’re having them daily. And that’s bad for you … and then you might take all these sorts of antimicrobial things, it’s gone too far.

Jeff:                       So any other natural things that people can do?

Steve:                   I want to talk about the immune system quickly which is about, we’ve got Resilience which is brilliant for the immune system, it’s also anti-inflammatory so you do actually … it’s one of those things that can help you feel better as well as be better. So it’s got anti-inflammatory properties, but it also boosts the immune system with the reishi and all the other goodies in it, the wormwood, artemisia so those sorts of things are, what I would do if you are starting to get an infection, you’ve got to work on the immune system in the body instead of thinking of anti or killing it. You can use these all for that, but I like to boost the immune system and use things like that and the zincs and those sorts of goodies to get the immune system fired up.

Steve:                   So whatever bug you’ve got, your body can adapt to it. You don’t care if it’s a bacteria or fungus or virus, your body will adapt to it, and that’s the beauty about it. You’ve got things in your body ready to set up to attack those things.

Jeff:                       Well Resilience was Matt’s super formula.

Steve:                   I love it.

Jeff:                       It’s not only an antioxidant, but specifically for any sort of sickness and disease and that sort of stuff, too. So can you really go through the ingredients that are in there fast, Steve. One of my favorites, obviously is the mushroom.

Steve:                   Yeah reishi mushroom?

Jeff:                       You do you want to talk about that?

Steve:                   Very good, very good. It’s one of the classic immune adaptogens. Now what I mean by adaptogen is it means it corrects the immune system. So if your immune system is down, it will bring it up. But if you’ve got an [crosstalk 00:54:06] autoimmune disease, it’ll bring it down too. So it’s got this lovely normalizing effect. There’s nothing in medicine that does that. I can’t think of a drug that normalizes. It’s always anti-something, or boosting something. Usually anti-something. Most drugs are antihistamines, antihypertensives.

Steve:                   So this normalizes the immune system and secondly it boosts all aspects of the immune system, so it kills viruses, bacteria, funguses, any of those sorts of thins.

Jeff:                       It does so in a natural way without the trade off. And this is why we love nature so much.

Steve:                   Yeah. And because people have consumed mushrooms for centuries we know that this pick of a mushroom is nontoxic and it has no side effects because we have consumed it for years. Vancomycin’s been consumed for only a few decades but even the newer ones, the new drugs haven’t been consumed much at all. So they have side effects. And their new to nature molecules.

Jeff:                       So that’s reishi. What else?

Steve:                   Artemisia.

Jeff:                       Yup, which is wormwood.

Steve:                   Wormwood.

Jeff:                       Which is interesting because I remember there was a drink that you could have with wormwood in it. Absinthe. It’s a different type of wormwood, correct?

Steve:                   Yeah this is Artemisia Annua, Chinese wormwood. And the thing I love about wormwood is that it kills the most powerful infection that kills more people than anything in the world, which is malaria. And the way it works with malaria, I love this mechanism, it was discovered in ’95. Basically in malaria it relies on iron, so it lives in your blood because there’s lots of iron in your blood. Hemoglobin, the red blood cells got iron in it.

Steve:                   So it takes that iron, which is an iron Fe3+ that’s the form of iron. What wormwood does is it takes the iron only in the malarial mug and turns it to Fe4+, which is completely unstable and it destroys the malaria through free radicals.

Jeff:                       I didn’t know that. Yeah, right.

Steve:                   And that’s how it kills that. And it’s kind of like how on earth does it? Because you can take wormwood and it doesn’t affect your red blood cells, but once it gets in malaria, it kills malaria.

Jeff:                       Does it affect anything else? Because I know Matt uses wormwood for tons of different illnesses.

Steve:                   Yeah great, anything that’s iron borne. So a lot of microbes live in your blood and those sorts of things, so any blood borne infections it’s terrific for.

Jeff:                       And it’s one of those things too, I use Resilience everyday because I love it’s antioxidant, really really powerful antioxidant effect. But it’s nice to know that I’ve got these ingredients taking anything off, but it doesn’t have a trade off. It doesn’t have a negative effect. Your body doesn’t become resistant to it over time.

Steve:                   No because it boosts the immune system. The immune system adapts. If your immune system isn’t adapted to that, it will adapt to that so your body can …

Jeff:                       So if your immune system’s a bit on the low, it’ll actually help to pick it up.

Steve:                   Absolutely it will. And I always had low lymphocytes and [inaudible 00:56:37] it’s normal.

Jeff:                       Lymphocytes are part of your white blood cell defense mechanism?

Steve:                   They are. Lymphocytes are the white blood cells, there’s neutrophils and there’s all these other types of leukocytes and those sorts of things, but you can boost the neutral is the most common one, so you can normalize the immune system on these. Which again keeps you protected against … or you can take it acutely. You can take loads of it because it’s nontoxic.

Jeff:                       And we’ve done that several times with Resilience, coming down with something, again you absolutely smash it, but typically I take around about two to three capsules a day.

Steve:                   So it’s high potency. I love that. So that’s what I love about it, it’s got amla in it which is a great one for vitamin C, a bioactive form which in other words just gives you enough to stop the deficiency there. It’s got a …

Jeff:                       What’s interesting, and I said Steve, you don’t need a lot. But Matt was saying the amount of people, even a few years ago when he was in clinic treating, they would come in with children that had bleeding gums and wounds that wouldn’t heal and all this sort of stuff, and you know. He’s like, “Yeah, the small amount of vitamin C that you need, guess what? You’re not getting.” It’s actually more prevalent than it has been anytime since the bloody Limeys were going to siege. It’s amazing how nutrient deficient much of our sad standard American and Australian diets actually are.

Steve:                   It is, and you mentioned Limeys, the reason they’re called Limeys is because lime is a great treatment for scurvy, vitamin C. But the beautiful thing about it too is it also got boswellia in.

Jeff:                       Yeah boswellia’s cool.

Steve:                   It’s great for loads of things, but it’s anti inflammatory. So it’ll actually make you feel better as well as having other benefits throughout the body.

Jeff:                       Harden up, Steve come on. And look there’s nothing wrong with … that’s why you have the chicken soup and watch a comedy, because it releases endorphins, it makes you feel better. So anything that can actually help to relieve the symptoms but without stopping the action, the mechanism, that’s what you want.

Steve:                   That’s right because you can take things to stop the immune system, and you will feel better if you stop your immune system.

Jeff:                       Yeah instantly. But then the bugs can obviously do a lot worse.

Steve:                   Yeah because before … there’s a new drug out. Can’t remember the name of it, for Hepatitis C, which basically kills the virus Hepatitis C. Before that they used to give people gamma interferon to boost the immune system to kill the virus. And so that’s a drug that made people feel sick, and that’s what we know, it’s gamma interferon that makes you feel like you’ve got a cold or flu.

Steve:                   And it’s also got turmeric in it. I mean turmeric’s good for everything. It’s good for bowels, everything. But also it great for an anti-inflammatory and again makes you feel good. It boosts detoxification as well, and nucleotide factor too, which is …

Jeff:                       Helps to slow down the phase of the liver as well?

Steve:                   Yup it slows down phase one, increases phase two, so it stops that backlog of toxins. So that’s what I love about it so much. Those ingredients.

Jeff:                       And turmeric again, probably of all the things, again if you had to choose one turmeric would probably be it for me. So and pomegranate probably number two, actually.

Steve:                   Oh pomegranate’s good.

Jeff:                       But yeah anyway having said that, turmeric is just such a powerful, such an amazing compound and you should be using it all the time. It works on so many functions in the body.

Steve:                   Absolutely and if you can get the immune system working properly, it can kill any virus, bacteria you’ve got within reason, of course. You can’t become resistant to it and you can take it as a preventative. This is a beautiful, it’s a … Matt formula this one, so it’s not like an echinacea angustifolia which is one you take when you’ve got a cold.

Jeff:                       Yeah and that’s another really good point. And again in Australia, not in the northern hemisphere, but in the southern hemisphere at the moment we’re coming in to cold and flu season over the next few months. Echinacea, great plant, but only to be used when you’re actually sick, not to be used as a preventative all the time. And this is about knowing your herb lore and how to use things. People overuse echinacea and it can actually be the wrong thing.

Steve:                   It is the wrong thing to take for long term. Short term, you take it when you’ve got a flu. But you don’t want to take it long term, it’s not necessary for that. But the beautiful thing about what Matt formulated, was Resilience, you can take it long term. It’s good for you anyway. Full stop. When there’s a damaged bottle that comes in the kitchen, it’s like, “Oh yeah.” It’s pretty much gone within a few days. People take it, it’s …

Jeff:                       Quite a few people actually using it as opposed to colloidal silver, opening up the capsules and actually gargling with it and saying that it’s got rid of their sore throat so …

Steve:                   Well it’s anti-inflammatory, the boswellia in it and the turmeric. It’s just, it’s great. That’s what I love about natural medicines, is that if you’re going to boost the immune system, you’re going to have a much better response because then you don’t have to worry about sending blood off to the lab to find out what infection you’ve got. The immune system is your best response to adapt to kill it.

Jeff:                       So question comes back to these superbugs and all the rest of it, Steve. Need we be worried if we’ve got natural things that we can actually use, we can look at boosting our immune system. Because my feeling is, is that some of these bugs are going to mutate into such severe fast moving organisms that by the time we get out and get our natural medicine into us, it could be too late.

Steve:                   Yes and no. You should worry about them in one way, you should boost your immune system to [crosstalk 01:01:51].

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 01:01:51] is boost your immune system.

Steve:                   But the only problem with all this stuff is, is that one day you’ll possibly end up in hospital with a broken leg or something like that. And that’s when you can get a bad infection in hospital. You know my wife, Beck talks about them, they’re really bad [crosstalk 01:02:04].

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 01:02:04] nurses are they worried about it, Steve?

Steve:                   Very much so. Yeah no medicine in the literature it’s like, “Oh panic!” It really is. It’s quite bad.

Jeff:                       I know this. I know and as I said that was 10 years ago I saw that in a news article and people were looking to panic then, so it’s one of those things. But there is hope.

Steve:                   There is hope.

Jeff:                       Your natural immunity, natural medicines can obviously help.

Steve:                   So really I think the take home message is, is keep your immune system strong. Get off the junk food. Eat well. Exercise well.

Jeff:                       Fresh, eat local, plenty of water. Sugar will kill your immune system faster than anything else. It really does have a dampening effect. If you’re sick, don’t eat chocolate, don’t eat soft drinks. Get fresh water. Eat good quality food. Make sure that you’re using things like colloidal silver, zinc is fantastic. Obviously shameless plug but Resilience is fantastic, broader acting product that you can use that can empower your immune system and help [crosstalk 01:03:06].

Steve:                   I’ve got another thing to weirdly improve your immune system. I’m going to say Cort RX now you might say, “What’s in there to boost the immune system?” It’s the fact that it reduces stress, or any way you can do to reduce stress. Because stress is … you know you release cortisol, most people know this, it’s that they made a drug out of it called cortisone. You’ve probably heard of cortisone?

Jeff:                       I have yeah.

Steve:                   And that supremely suppresses the immune system. So does cortisol. So when you suppress the immune system with cortisone it can be used for asthma, it can be used for arthritis, you can inject it in joints to reduce the immune cells. So that’s how powerful cortisol, the stuff we produce, is at suppressing the immune system.

Jeff:                       And that’s why I say go home. Don’t go to work. Get your favorite blankie and your teddy. And then go watch Seinfeld or whatever you love, and …

Steve:                   Absolutely, get your mind off …

Jeff:                       Go and watch Something about Mary, or something that’s just going to make you laugh, right?

Steve:                   That’s a good film.

Jeff:                       That’s a great film. Probably a bit risque for some.

Steve:                   Possibly.

Jeff:                       But go watch Monty Py … whatever. Go watch something that makes you laugh and that makes you happy and stop stressing out and just relax.

Steve:                   Relax. Yeah absolutely and the pressure is a killer for the immune system, and this is why people get … just context. People might get a cold through outbreak, and what happens? “Oh I’ve been through a lot of stress lately.” That’s because the virus activates when the immune system’s suppressed. So it’s very very important to keep your immune system active by, not just supplements but good eating, good life and stress free. I think it’s the take home message.

Jeff:                       Cool. So be aware of the superbug, but don’t be worried about it every day.

Steve:                   Exactly maybe, let’s say tomorrow I broke my leg and I had to go to a hospital?

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Steve:                   I would take a bottle of Resilience in with me, and just be doing this …

Jeff:                       So would I, and zinc, and I’d probably be covering myself with Thieves oil and colloidal silver.

Steve:                   Yup and the doctors’ll go, “What’s that crap you’re taking?”

Jeff:                       “Never you mind.” They’ll just talk you out of it and say it doesn’t work.

Steve:                   Yeah that’s it, that’s it.

Jeff:                       “Here, I’ll give you a dose of golden staph.” I’m joking, doctors don’t do that.

Steve:                   No they don’t give golden staph out, no they don’t. Well I think we’ve got some great …

Jeff:                       We do. Okay so really quickly. Just a quick one on the reviews and guys we really appreciate the iTune reviews and here’s one, “Haven’t come across another podcast with as much usable content. Sure these guys do talk about their own products.” We do. “But the info they provide is relatable to best means to source what is need to improve almost any health problems you may have. Predominantly through food.” Absolutely. “Even though the scientific jargon they use is still meaningful enough so that you can do your own due diligence, ATP Science has a bit of everything. Science, easy to understand language, laughter, learning and most of all ideas that you can practically use to improve your own health and wellbeing. Keep up the good work ATP Science team. Five stars.”

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 01:05:49] thing is, absolutely. And I want to say this too. Yes we are a company, yes we do have our own products, we’re passionate about them because obviously we made them for people. But even if people don’t want to use ATP Science products, and we respect that people might not want to, food is medicine, which we will always say. Colloidal silver you can buy anywhere. There’s quality zinc products that you can get, obviously we’ve got our own, but so long as you’re getting a good quality zinc that you can use too, that’s going to stand you in really good stead for a lot of these things.

Jeff:                       We even talk about the individual ingredients if you want to go buy somebody else’s, if you trust them. And we do this as a free information podcast, and we’re just passionate about helping people, Steve. And again it all comes back to one thing. Food is medicine, medicine is food. And that’s the basis where everything really should start, as far as your general health is concerned.

Steve:                   100%. Great.

Jeff:                       Alright, Steve I’ll do a quick FAQ. “I’m writing this letter on behalf and with the consent of my son Alex. He’s born in 1998, current diagnosis Asperger’s, ADHD, AF, Gilbert’s disease, asthma.”

Steve:                   AF is atrial fibrillation, I think is what they’re referring to. Heart disease. Just so they know.

Jeff:                       Okay. “Alex has recurring symptoms of throbbing headache, loss of concentration, unable to focus on a task, shortness of breath, cannot wake up of a morning after any amount of sleep, dizziness, shaking, hands physically shake, feels like he’s going to collapse into a deep sleep, always fatigued after work, blurry vision, tunnel vision, stomach cramps, he has no peripheral vision, cannot remember tasks, three simple tasks he does regularly, or tasks he is given at work for the morning. Cannot start one job or task that cannot be completed from start and cannot plan ahead. All these symptoms come at random times and not always the same ones together. There does not seem to be any rhyme or reason to anything. All of the diagnosis Alex has are hereditary. Alex was stung by a Stonefish about 12 years ago. It was after that that we had the allergy to shellfish. I wonder if this may have affected his heart in some way?”

Steve:                   It does.

Jeff:                       “Alex takes Vyvance?”

Steve:                   Vyvance yeah.

Jeff:                       Vyvance, yeah. Steve you should come see his medication there …

Steve:                   Yes yes [crosstalk 01:08:16] medication and beta blockers.

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 01:08:18] and propranolol.

Steve:                   Which is a beta blocker.

Jeff:                       I’m going to just trample all over those, but you know what I’m talking about.

Steve:                   That’s alright, yeah.

Jeff:                       “Around 3PM Alex feels palpitations, racing heart and eases after 4PM medication takes effect. Alex feels the palpitations in the morning when he wakes up, he needs to take the medication before 7 or 8AM before the palpitations become too bad. I hope this makes sense and enough, or not enough information, kindest regards, Shannon.”

Steve:                   Wow.

Jeff:                       That’s tough.

Steve:                   That’s tough I mean look at those symptoms. Basically feels like he’s going to collapse into a deep sleep. I mean this is scary, scary stuff. He shakes, he’s dizzy, can’t wake up in the morning, shortness of breath, unable to focus. This is really a mix of symptoms but they all actually do have kind of like a pattern. And it looks like the first thing, and there’s two ways to do this. And probably the first thing I would do is do an organic acid test because I think there’s-

Jeff:                       That’s interesting because I know last week you had [Elisma 01:09:23].

Steve:                   Elisma, yeah.

Jeff:                       Who pioneered a lot of this information.

Steve:                   Yes very much so.

Jeff:                       I’m really looking forward to actually doing a podcast with her, but yeah the organic acid test because that will discover a lot of what’s really happening in the system, correct?

Steve:                   Very much, if you’ve got Gilbert’s disease, asthma, atrial fibrillation is a heart disease, ADHD, Asperger’s, they’re all related to the gut. They’re all related to [inaudible 01:09:46] we did talk, Asperger’s is part of the autistic things, so does he have C.diff in the gut? The heart thing is the one that doesn’t fit in, atrial fibrillation and it seems to be related to the Stonefish which are cardiotoxic.

Steve:                   You know a Stonefish, you stand on and they can kill you.

Jeff:                       Yeah very deadly.

Steve:                   It’s cardiotoxic. So they’re quite severe so that could be causing his cardiovascular issues. And the cardiovascular issues that, he’s on beta blockers to stop the racing heart. Now beta blockers work by stopping adrenaline affecting the heart and the blood vessels, so usually it’s given to people with high blood pressure, but it does stop that heart beating. A lot of people take it before they do presentations to settle their heart down.

Steve:                   So it’s one of those sorts of things. So the rest of them, his autoimmune things, and his asthmas, and the Asperger’s which is part of the autistic, do relate to the gut bugs. So an organic acid test will see how that’s affecting it.

Steve:                   The second method of approach is to assume that the gut is involved and take something like GutRight. Because firstly it can’t harm, may help. And so he’s doing a GutRight protocol because he is 20 years old, or 21 now so he’s old enough to do that sort of thing, to follow a strict diet, and use that as like a test treat method if you know what I mean? Because if you take GutRight that will help the gut. If you do a test you will find out that it’s probably the gut anyway. If that makes sense. For this case, I think GutRight would be the very very first thing that would be sent out. The second thing …

Jeff:                       I don’t know, Resilience as well Steve?

Steve:                   Yeah for multiple reasons.

Jeff:                       I mean I know that the GutRight especially for really bad stuff in the gut as well, we know that the Resilience is kind of like the additional sledge hammer that you can use with the gut, I mean it has other functions that we’ve already just mentioned.

Steve:                   Help with Gilbert’s disease, helps with asthma as well. And the reishi mushroom’s very good also for ADHD, we were talking about that last time too. So that’s a very good thing, too. Now the other thing that you may want to consider, particularly for the racing heart and the stress and dizziness is the ZMST. Now the ZMST, zinc helps the asthma side is the taurine, but the magnesium is what we’re chasing here as a calcium channel blocker for the heart.

Jeff:                       Well the other thing I was going to recommend, Steve, and again would be the InfraRed as well.

Steve:                   Oh yeah, yeah.

Jeff:                       Would you say that that would be okay?

Steve:                   That would be absolutely okay. Very good because of the schisandras and all that sort of stuff, and that’ll be really good for the magnesium too. And if you take the ZMST in the evening just one or two capsules, no more because you don’t want … it will help him sleep, too. Help him with the deep sleep. That’s the sort of three that I think will be the best three there, and MultiFood again. You can see that that’s required in there, too.

Steve:                   So that’s the treatment, but an organic acid test would be terrific as well.

Jeff:                       So what we want to send out, an organic acid test, and then send these things out ahead of time, Steve, or [crosstalk 01:12:43].

Steve:                   Wonderful, no no you can …

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 01:12:44] straight away.

Steve:                   You can.

Jeff:                       And again always contact your healthcare practitioner, make sure that they’re okay with this stuff that we’re giving. Make sure, I mean Steve I know that you’ve got a background in chemistry, but you understand natural medicine as well. So from your advice that’s great, but obviously work with your healthcare practitioner on these sorts of things, because they’ll want to make sure that there’s no potential interactions there. It’s very very important that you always work with your … whenever you’ve got any severe illnesses and disease, and I know we’ve got the disclaimer at the beginning of the podcast, always seek advice from your healthcare practitioner.

Steve:                   Absolutely. There’s some pretty powerful drugs, I mean 40 mg of propranolol is quite high, so the palpitations must be quite bad. So that’s the way you treat that, absolutely.

Jeff:                       Alright, well we’re sending a heap of stuff to Shannon.

Steve:                   Good on you Shannon.

Jeff:                       Get the oat done and then obviously get that [crosstalk 01:13:35].

Steve:                   Send us the results.

Jeff:                       Yeah please let us know how you’re getting on, obviously.

Steve:                   Very very much so.

Jeff:                       Last one quickly Steve. We’ll just race through this one.

Jeff:                       “Hi guys, first of all, love the podcast, listen to it every cardio session.” Wish I had a dollar for every time [inaudible 01:13:47] podcast when they’re doing the cardio. “Based on your given symptom picture I figured I have adrenal fatigue. I’ve done a saliva test for cortisol, estradiol, progesterone, testosterone and DHEA. I have the results attached,” Steve, which you’ve got.

Steve:                   Yup.

Jeff:                       “I’m very low on estradiol, progesterone and DHEA while my cortisol seems to be higher most of the day. Background on me, I’ve completed a bikini bodybuilding three times now, first time my coach cut 54 pounds in 20 weeks, which I rebounded from quite rapidly. Then we cut 55 pounds in 15 weeks, which ended my prep with three hours a day of cardio while working a 12 hour shift.” Holy snap.

Steve:                   “I am a boilermaker.”

Jeff:                       “A boilermaker.” Holy cow. “I am one hour a day of lifting weights while eating 700 calories of just chicken, cucumbers and celery. I’ve been struggling to keep the weight off and I’m now up to almost 40 pounds since my last competition in August. I fear for my health and my hormones never being normal again. I’m always tired, run down, I currently work out five or six days a week and do about 30 to 40 minutes cardio, four to five days a week. I really need help understanding where to start to get my body back to healthy. I’m not competing this year as my health is my number one priority. Much love, Hailey.”

Jeff:                       Hailey, my heart goes out to you. You obviously, that’s a very very demanding workload being a physical job, really ultra low calory diet as well, and putting your body under a huge amount of strain. Which I guess this is the importance of reverse dieting and all the rest of it. Not only that, and this is the other big thing as well, you might have a few freaks out there that could potentially do this and be normal, but everybody’s individual and knowing your own body obviously is really important. Which obviously you’re reaching out to us to help for that. But for other people that are listening, just because somebody else has done it and continues to do it and get away with it, doesn’t mean everybody can because we’re all different.

Jeff:                       So anyway, Steve, how can we help Hailey?

Steve:                   This scares me a little bit. And I’ll explain why. She eats virtually nothing and works out pretty much all the time. Her BMI is 27.1. Now your BMI should be from 19 to 24 as a woman. Athletic women are at the higher end of that, but she’s 27.1 BMI based on doing all that. There’s something wrong. You know what I mean?

Jeff:                       And Hailey said she’s worried she’s never going to be normal. Hailey, you are. Don’t worry.

Steve:                   You are, yeah.

Jeff:                       We will find a way and there is always a way to bring things back to normal, but I’m glad that you’re taking the year off though, that’s step number one completed.

Steve:                   Absolutely. Now during the luteal phase she tested her hormones, and they’re virtually extinct. She’s got low estradiol, which is the most powerful estrogen. And low progesterone, very low. For example the progesterone in the luteal phase should be right up around 250, hers is 11. So it’s very very low. Her testosterone is in normal range. DHEA is low. So she’s got a very low hormonal load. Now in the other end of the scale her cortisol is relatively high. In fact during the noon, it’s in fact above normal and even into the evening, it’s above the optimal range which is closer to zero and hers is a little bit high.

Steve:                   So she’s actually got low sex hormones and very high cortisol, and that’s very common.

Jeff:                       So [inaudible 01:17:10] Alpha Mars and Cort RX, right?

Steve:                   Yeah absolutely. Because you need to correct both, now you could just give one of those things, but in her case because it’s so extreme, Mars definitely and the Cort RX definitely and you just take them at different times of the day. The Mars you take throughout the day, and the Cort RX two or three at night just to reduce that so she can get into that deep sleep and all that sort of stuff.

Steve:                   But that’s an absolutely classic symptom picture of somebody who’s got low sex hormones and high cortisol.

Jeff:                       And what I would do as well, Steve is that once … and again I’d leave this to you and Matt. After you’ve taken maybe one to two bottles of the Mars, Matt says normally one’s enough.

Steve:                   Yeah one’s enough. Yeah.

Jeff:                       Change out the Mars and go on to Alpha Prime.

Steve:                   Prime. And for her, her testosterone is normal to slightly low, but virtually normal. So she could tolerate Prime. But for her Mars is the best thing, because it just boosts those terribly low estradiol and progesterone in a luteal phase.

Jeff:                       And so you’d recommend taking three capsules a day, Steve? Spread out?

Steve:                   Absolutely three capsules a day.

Jeff:                       And the Cort RX would you recommend when [crosstalk 01:18:17].

Steve:                   Well I’d take three. I’d probably take … well Matt says I like this one where you take one before dinner, and then two about an hour before bed. And I like that, it’s a nice little spread out thing.

Jeff:                       And then once you’ve gone through the Mars, because we’ll send out a bottle of Prime as well, so after a month of being on the Mars, put the Prime back in.

Steve:                   The Prime will also …

Jeff:                       And just change the Mars for the Prime?

Steve:                   Absolutely and the Prime will also give her a nice boost as well.

Jeff:                       I think for the progesterone, would you recommend the Venus in the first thing in the morning, or …

Steve:                   Yeah see Venus would be good, too. Because her hormone, yeah we can do that, can’t we.

Jeff:                       So we could do maybe two Alpha Venus first thing in the morning?

Steve:                   Yup and with the Mars. Now for her, she really needs the Mars and the Venus. There’s not many people like that. But you know …

Jeff:                       Both because again the Vitex is also going to help with the progesterone as well. And just be aware as well, if it is a little bit low, many times when people first start taking the Venus in the morning … because they get a massive surge of dopamine-

Steve:                   Dopamine in the brain, yeah.

Jeff:                       It can make you feel a little bit ill. If that happens, just back it back for a few days and allow the body to start producing … it’s funny when I used to play video games ad nauseum and staring, I used to get headaches after I stopped playing them because of the dopamine download. This is almost working in reverse so you just need to work with your body a little bit. So we’re recommending two Venus in the morning?

Steve:                   Yes.

Jeff:                       With an Alpha Mars?

Steve:                   Yup with Mars in the morning.

Jeff:                       And Mars at lunchtime.

Steve:                   Lunch and Mars dinner.

Jeff:                       And Mars at dinner. With one Cort RX before dinner.

Steve:                   Before dinner.

Jeff:                       And then two Cort RX before bed. After you’ve finished the Mars after the first month, then go on to the Prime and use the Prime … I think when you’re using the Venus, though, it’s normally the Venus two in the morning …

Steve:                   The morning, and then Prime at night.

Jeff:                       And you take the Prime in the evening with your evening meal.

Steve:                   Absolutely and that’s what you do after the Mars. Because the Prime’s got a similar …

Jeff:                       Slightly different actions.

Steve:                   Yeah slightly different action.

Jeff:                       To the Venus, yeah. Similar [crosstalk 01:20:16].

Steve:                   Yeah and Hailey is 23 years old and her last menstruation was the middle of January, so you can see that’s how low her hormones are. They’re symptomatically low and they’re extraordinarily low on the test.

Jeff:                       I’m throwing in a MultiFood because [crosstalk 01:20:30] enzyme reactions and everything else, you need to have that working as well.

Steve:                   And with this very restrictive diet she’s on.

Jeff:                       Absolutely. You’re probably a little bit deficient in some of those nutrients, too.

Steve:                   Probably yeah.

Jeff:                       So that’s probably a great place to start, sounds mainly hormonal but obviously the MultiFood should help there too.

Steve:                   I almost like to say cut back on the training a little bit. I don’t think those words haven’t uttered my mouth, because I’m such a …

Jeff:                       Well it’s one of those things. While your body is … you need to go into conservation phase, you need to reset. Do the same thing. Maybe work out three times a week instead, cut it back a little bit.

Steve:                   A little bit.

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 01:21:02] snuggled up on the couch, watching some comedies. Really, I know it sounds funny and I’m suggesting it a lot.

Steve:                   It’s true, and even though she has weight, she could eat more healthy vegetables, more greens and salads and those sorts of things. Not just cucumber and celery, try and mix it up …

Jeff:                       Variation in your diet’s really big, especially for your gut health as well [crosstalk 01:21:19] that can be …

Steve:                   Yeah that’s what I’m thinking at.

Jeff:                       So try and incorporate lots of fresh, local greens from various stuff.

Steve:                   Yup.

Jeff:                       Steve we’ve run out of time.

Steve:                   I know we have.

Jeff:                       Thanks everyone for listening.

Steve:                   No worries.

Jeff:                       And we’ll be back next week.

Steve:                   Okay we’ll see you next week.

Jeff:                       Okay bye.

Steve:                   Bye.

Speaker 2:           Thanks for listening, and remember question everything. Well, except what we say.



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