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Episode 205 – Organic Acids and Metabolic Waste with Elizma Lambert

In this episode of the ATP Project, Matt and Steve chat with naturopath Elizma Lambert. This is part 1 of a 2 part episode. The guys talk to Elizma about organic acids and the Organic Acid Test. They also discuss metabolic waste – the by-products that come from our energy production pathways, how it can manifest symptoms in our body and influence our quality of life and how we can manipulate these pathways to get enhanced performance.



Stephen:                             Welcome to the ATP podcast. Today we have an amazing special guest and we are going to be talking about biochemistry which, of course, I love to bits.

Stephen:                             We’re going to talk about inorganic acid testing, we’re going to be talking about metabolic wastes in the body and all sorts of biochemistry and all the things we can do to improve our wellness and functional health.

Stephen:                             And this is part one of part two, so sit back and enjoy.

announcer 1:                      As always, this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any condition and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information from this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle.

announcer 1:                      Stay tuned. The ATP project is about to start.

announcer 2:                      Welcome to the ATP project, delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance and looking good.

announcer 2:                      If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax and open your mind, as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health-related that can make you better.

Stephen:                             Welcome to the ATP podcast.

Stephen:                             You’re with your hosts, Matt, Steve and … Hang on, you’re not Jeff, hang on, there’s, you don’t even sound like Jeff. What’s going on here? You’re, you’re a woman.

Stephen:                             What’s going on? What’s your name?

Matt:                                     What a shit intro Steve, but it’s good.

Stephen:                             It’s good.

Elizma:                                  Well, my name is Elizma Lambert.

Stephen:                             Hello.

Elizma:                                  So just Elizma and, I’m a naturopath by trade. Been in the health industry for 20 plus years and just love what I do, and yeah.

Stephen:                             Well we love what you do too and that’s why we’ve invited you, particularly Matt’s invited you here. We’re going to talk about-

Matt:                                     Yeah, I’m your biggest fan.

Stephen:                             Yeah.

Matt:                                     Even though I’ve been calling you Elizma the whole time and you’ve been politely just taking it.

Stephen:                             Yes.

Elizma:                                  It’s all right.

Matt:                                     But I do blame your assistant. I specifically blamed your assistant earlier when I said “How do you say her name so I don’t look like an idiot?” And she set me up.

Elizma:                                  She must have, she must have. She’s probably laughing right now.

Stephen:                             Yeah.

Matt:                                     Yeah, I bet. I bet. Hey, so you’re an elite athlete too weren’t you? You were-

Elizma:                                  Yeah, I used to be an elite athlete. I mean I haven’t done that for awhile but-

Stephen:                             What, hang on, what did you do as an elite athlete?

Elizma:                                  Well, I was a runner-

Stephen:                             Oh, yes.

Elizma:                                  So, half marathons, like long distance running. I used to do South African cross country championships in high school days.

Stephen:                             Did you do the Comrades in South Africa?

Elizma:                                  No, that was on my to-do list.

Stephen:                             Wow.

Elizma:                                  But, you know, obviously not never did that.

Stephen:                             That’s a famous run event where you go up a big hill and down a big hill and it’s about, what, 80 kilometers?

Elizma:                                  About 80 kilometers between just … It’s like running from Brisbane to the Gold Coast.

Stephen:                             Is that all?

Matt:                                     That’s silly. Why would someone … No one’s going to be chasing you after 80 kilometers. They’re going to give up by then, but … So there’s going to be a bit of weird going on I reckon because we have two endurance athletes.

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Matt:                                     Two endurance people that are both well versed with biochemistry. I couldn’t even speak then, so I think I won’t do as much today. And also, I haven’t done bugger all prep for this thing because I know I’m surrounded by all you guys that know all of the big words and all the different pathways and I’m going to try and make sure that I can bring it back down to a level that people can understand because, I mean, these things use big words.

Matt:                                     It’s not us being wanky, they’re just big words.

Elizma:                                  That’s right.

Matt:                                     And so we need to go back and understand how those big words fit into your body, how they make you feel, how they represent … And if those big words are associated with your particular symptom picture for the people at home, and then we’re going to work out how to prevent it or treat it or buffer it, or whatever, because today we’re going to talk a lot about organic acids and waste.

Matt:                                     So we’re going to talk about metabolic waste, you know, the by-products that come from our energy production pathway, which ones of those contribute to fatigue, which ones contribute to your brain snaps that might happen during sport, how they manifest symptoms in our body and how they can influence our quality of life and wellness, but also how we can manipulate these sort of pathways to get enhanced performance.

Matt:                                     So I reckon if we cover off all that we’ve got heaps to talk about.

Stephen:                             Heaps to talk about.

Matt:                                     And the good thing is your naturopath experience as well as your athletic experience allows you to be able to relate this back to some ways of manipulating it to getting people better, better quality performances.

Elizma:                                  Absolutely.

Matt:                                     Whether it’s learning or whether it’s, you know like we talk about brain hacks, body hacks and science sports stuff. There’s so much applications out of this that I’m really excited about it because you need to get the big picture because it’s-

Elizma:                                  Yeah.

Matt:                                     We’re going to, today, probably talk about everything from autistic children to the elderly through to the elite athletes and the weakened warriors and everything. It’s applicable to absolutely everyone.

Elizma:                                  Absolutely, yeah.

Stephen:                             It is. Now, now just to start with, we’ve talked about organic acids, is there some way we can test for organic acids?

Elizma:                                  Yeah, it’s a simple urine test.

Elizma:                                  So, you know, no needles involved, no pain involved, which is why it’s such a great test because you can use it for kids and very young children, which is why it’s such a popular test in the autistic community. Because, yeah, it’s simply like collecting your urine sample and sending it off to a lab. It takes about three weeks or so to get the results back, so … And it tests for 70 or more metabolites.

Stephen:                             Wow.

Elizma:                                  It gives you, like, I call it the biochemical snapshot of the body.

Stephen:                             Snapshot, yeah, I saw you write that-

Elizma:                                  Because it is for that point in time, it gives you that biochemical snapshot and you get information on what’s going on in your neurological system, so in the brain and the gut, in the cells.

Matt:                                     And you’re measuring, so what we’re talking about is the OAT … Okay, we’re going to stop there.

Elizma:                                  [crosstalk 00:05:43] the test, yes.

Matt:                                     I almost did the ATM machine, machine thing.

Stephen:                             Yes.

Matt:                                     So, the organic acid test is OAT, alright? So I’m going to try not to take about OAT testing because that’s sort of saying the ATM machine, but anyway, so what we’re talking about here is actually measuring acidic or organic acids in urine.

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Matt:                                     Some of these things that you’re measuring in the OAT, or the organic acid … Man, I’m going to struggle that, the whole way, hey.

Stephen:                             You’re going to say OAT test.

Matt:                                     Yeah, I know. I’m going to say OAT test over and over again. But, some of the things we’re measuring in the urine as part of the organic acid test, some of these are like metabolites that have come from the gut, so they’ve come all the way from the stomach and to be in the urine, we know they’ve been absorbed through our body.

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Matt:                                     So, they’ve impacted with every cell of our body or whatever, I’m not sure exactly about that but, they’ve ended up in our urine. So they’ve come from our gut, through our body and they’ve had an effect on our metabolism and our energy production pathways and everything on the way through, because a lot of these organic acids that you’re measuring in the urine that are related to gut bugs, they’re actually secreted from gut bugs for a reason, aren’t they? To disrupt the buggers around them.

Elizma:                                  Yeah, yeah.

Matt:                                     And to screw around with neighbors from stealing energy or metabolizing energy and performing well. So if those wastes are in your urine and they’ve gone through your body, those same waste may be impacting with your energy production pathways because you’re a neighboring cell competing with your own bugs for your own food.

Elizma:                                  Absolutely, yeah.

Matt:                                     Is that a-

Elizma:                                  That’s right. I mean the Clostridia markers is a case in point. So, Clostridia-

Stephen:                             Is a bug in the gut that can be quite bad. Sorry, go on.

Elizma:                                  That’s right, yes.

Stephen:                             Keep it simple, yeah.

Elizma:                                  And so they produce metabolites, just like all organisms do and one of them is for cresol, which is measured for in the organic acid test and that 4-cresol is actually … There’s a reason why Clostridia bacteria produce for cresol, it interferes with other competitive organisms in the gut. So it’s sort of like Clostridia’s way of saying, “This is my territory and I’ll decide who shares this territory with me.” So it’s actually produced to kill off other organisms so that it can over grow.

Elizma:                                  But, but that 4-cresol can also interfere then our biochemistry because it gets absorbed and now it’s floating around in our bodies and then that can then start to interfere with the dopamine beta-hydroxylase enzyme which then affects dopamine metabolism which is the core, one of the core issues, with a lot of autistic children or children with Asperger’s.

Elizma:                                  So then it starts having a brain effect. So these gut organisms, by producing these waste products that has a purpose in the gut for them, then start to interfere with our own biochemistry and then we get these symptoms.

Matt:                                     So, what does it actually do? So we would normally eat tyrosine and then the tyrosine and phenylalanine-

Elizma:                                  Yep, so all your amino acids.

Matt:                                     That we get out of our diet and they would normally convert through down to the dopamine pathway.

Stephen:                             Finally … Yep.

Matt:                                     Where does the cresol fit into that? Does it increase dopamine or does it block dopamine?

Elizma:                                  Okay. It increases the dopamine.

Stephen:                             Increases in brain.

Elizma:                                  Because dopamine is supposed to go through the dopamine beta-hydroxylase enzyme and convert into norepinephrine and epinephrine.

Matt:                                     Yep.

Elizma:                                  And so, if you have your 4-cresol blocking that enzyme, you’ll have dopamine build up and you’ll start getting deficiencies in your norepinephrine-epinephrine pathways.

Matt:                                     So the cresol fits into the blocking the conversion of dopamine through to norepinephrine, which for Australians we call it noradrenaline, and that sort of stuff. So in autism we have a build up of dopamine and a deficiency of noradrenaline, is that what we said?

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Stephen:                             Yes, that’s right, and so what medically … The way that’s treated to unblock that, is they give them amphetamines, the kids’ amphetamines to stimulate that through the adrenaline pathway.

Matt:                                     Ah, because ratios are more important than the amount, so if there’s a build up of dopamine, one way where you can compensate for that excessive dopamine is to increase the noradrenaline effects, then they even out a bit and that’s how amphetamine-based treatments work like-

Stephen:                             Ritalin

Matt:                                     Ritalin and that sort of stuff.

Matt:                                     So for someone that’s build up dopamine, they way they feel … So dopamine is a chemical that gives you, I thought it was when it’s in its right levels, confidence, self-esteem, pride, reward, but I suppose in an excess, it might be socially unacceptable behavior-

Elizma:                                  Anxiety, self-harm behavior, all of those kinds of things.

Elizma:                                  And the problem is, also, what you said was correct, Matt. It’s like it’s about the ratios but now you have a ton of dopamine and a ton of adrenaline to try and get those ratios right, but then it becomes like the insulin story. You become resistant, right? And now you become dopamine-resistant and all of that and those receptors down-regulate-

Matt:                                     And then you get the reward deficits and all those, man-

Elizma:                                  That’s right and now you need more because now your benchmark is so much higher for what you need.

Matt:                                     And what you’d normally do to get a decent surge of dopamine might be something reasonable.

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Matt:                                     Just normal things like enjoying, appreciating the joy in nature and things like that, that might make us feel good, all of a sudden you need to do almost an extreme act to get enough of a release to even touch the sides.

Elizma:                                  Yeah, exactly.

Stephen:                             Now the million dollar question is what causes this bug to be high in the gut? There’s one cause that’s published in the literature and this was published in 2018 by William Shaw.

Elizma:                                  Oh yes.

Stephen:                             You know William Shaw, don’t you?

Elizma:                                  Yes, Dr William Shaw.

Stephen:                             Yep, Dr William Shaw. Found that it’s glyphosate use that is causing Clostridial overgrowth.

Elizma:                                  That’s definitely one, yeah.

Stephen:                             Yeah, that’s one of the causes. So, again, we’ve done a lot on glyphosate in the podcast in the past, you may have heard, and this is one of the causes that they’ve found now, that some people are very susceptible to that and there was a twin study done recently where there’s some people who can metabolize the glyphosate okay but some who can’t and it causes this clostridial overgrowth, dopamine overgrowth in the brain and autism in that particular twin.

Elizma:                                  Absolutely.

Stephen:                             But the other twin didn’t suffer it, because the glyphosate was detoxified. So, it’s individual.

Elizma:                                  Because I think the gene or the enzyme that’s involved, it’s one of the enzymes involved in glyphosate detoxification is the PON1, I think.

Stephen:                             Yep, PON1.

Elizma:                                  Yeah, so that’s one of them. And absolutely, glyphosates would definitely be involved there and then also Clostridia’s a spore-forming organism.

Stephen:                             Yes.

Elizma:                                  And so the spore forming organisms, they’re very hard to kill.

Stephen:                             Very hard to kill.

Matt:                                     Yeah. And as soon as you do, for the people out there, the spores, when we talk about spore-forming organisms, what they do is that you imagine these spores like little escape pods.

Elizma:                                  Yeah.

Matt:                                     You start changing the environment, if you start trying to increase the diversity or if you start using products like GutRight and that sort of stuff to wipe out some of the overgrowth in that sort of stuff, the little buggers shoot out spores.

Matt:                                     And it’s the same deal. This is what normally would happen when you eat with seasons too. As their food supply changes at the end of the season in preparation for the following season, they’d shoot spores out knowing that there’s no guarantee that they’re going to be fed for awhile, they might die off and then the spores need to come back.

Matt:                                     And this is one of the challenges with people chopping and changing diet too quickly as well. When you change your diet to starve off these little buggers, they then shoot out their little spores, escape pods, they don’t just die off. They slow down their metabolism, they lay dormant for a period of time, the actual colony that’s there. And then if you come back early with a cheat meal, or if you come back early with the wrong foods, not only does the Clostridium all come back and fire up, but all their spores come out going “Right, fruit season’s back, let’s go out,” and then you stuck into these vicious cycles which is why people can really takes a long time to see the benefit out of the dietary change.

Matt:                                     And I know when, I’m not specific, I shouldn’t say, “I know,” because I don’t actually know anything. But with the Clostridium, I’m pretty sure that, like other bugs there, they can hold out for about nine months without getting fed before the spores start to kind of need to hatch and do something.

Matt:                                     So you really need to stick with things for quite a while to actually feel the change if you’re wanting to choose diet alone to change your microbiome.

Elizma:                                  Absolutely. Because you’re right. You can make them more resistant. I mean, candida is a case in point. You can get very extreme, or anti-candida kind of diets which I’m not a real fan of because something like candida which you can also measure for on an organic acid test, they can … Obviously they love sugar. That would be their first food of choice. If there’s no sugar, they’ll go for the complex carbohydrates. If they can’t get that, they’ll for amino acids and if they can’t get that, they can even metabolize fats for energy.

Stephen:                             Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s good.

Elizma:                                  So the point is if you go into very extreme diets, you run the risk of making them more resistant and so they become more aggressive because they know, they just change food sources.

Matt:                                     And they migrate? Because one thing I noticed every time I do some sort of an anti-candida program, skin, and things like vaginal thrush or oral thrush or other weird skin conditions and things like that, they just all flare up initially. I’m always thinking are they, their food supply is gone from here, are they looking for another food supply in a different location? So-

Elizma:                                  That’s right. They hijack the immune system, so they get into the white cells and they … It’s like they use it as a taxi ride, travel through the body and when they’re ready to go, they just jump out.

Stephen:                             [crosstalk 00:14:42] fascinating.

Matt:                                     When you see the little suckers too, because they start of as a single cell yeast. Now being a cell organism, they’re susceptible to phagocytosis.

Matt:                                     So they’re susceptible to being engulfed and removed by the T type 1 cells or the immune cells, aren’t they?

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Matt:                                     So, once these little single-cell organisms grow and they start to get little arms and legs and pie face, or whatever, they then embed, they actually grow kind of like … Man, they look little mushrooms. They grow like a root.

Elizma:                                  Like a little tree.

Matt:                                     Yeah, yeah, they’ve got their little knob head thing and then they shoot the … Just trying to just keep going. So then they’ve got their little roots into the mucous membrane and they really get stuck into that mucous membrane. They’re not just sitting on the mucus on the outside, they actually embed into it.

Elizma:                                  That’s right.

Matt:                                     And that’s what causes a lot of that thickness and congestion, like sinus, you know when people get the fungus in the sinus. It’s not very productive, it’s just so swollen and full that they can’t breathe properly.

Matt:                                     So with candida, so it builds these little tunnels and then it shoots off these little single cell spores, so you’re saying as those little single cell spores go inside our immune cells, 80% of our immune cells are located at that side of the mucosa where that mothership is living, and it’s just pumping them full of it, how come it doesn’t kill them? How come the immune cells aren’t just poisoning them off? They’ve built resistance to the immune thing or?

Elizma:                                  No, I think they produce compounds that neutralizes the immune system. I think one of the things that it does is … Because nitric oxide is a compound that is produced by the immune system as a kind of anti-bacterial, anti-fungal kind of thing.

Stephen:                             Free radical-

Elizma:                                  Yes, like a free radical, but candida has an enzyme, I can’t remember the exact one, that actually has the ability to neutralize it. So in a sense, it makes the immune system impotent, so it can’t.

Matt:                                     And so again we’re talking about [inaudible 00:16:36]. This keeps going.

Matt:                                     And so then what happens is these immune cells will migrate around to certain areas because they’ll still be getting activated by the antigen-presenting cells saying, “Hey, there’s this yeasty stuff everywhere”, so then they send them out to the skin, and out to other membranes in the body where I’d normally find these things and deliver more. Little bastards.

Matt:                                     And so candida, so the common … So someone that wants to know if you’re susceptible, or you’re possibly predisposed to candida, it ferments sugars. So whenever you get a lot of bloating, you get a lot of fullness, a lot of distention, it creates a bit of, it’s part of our estrobolome, meaning it will recycle our estrogen, liberate estrogen, so females with, and males, with a candida overgrowth will manifest an estrogen dominance with their menstrual cycle, breast tenderness, fluid, I put my hands down for that bit-

Stephen:                             You can always do this-

Matt:                                     And then I talk breasts and I go to go like that.

Stephen:                             I just keep them crossed when talking about breasts.

Matt:                                     Breast tenderness, fibrocystic breast tissue, heavier periods, fluid retention, bloating, swelling, all those sort of symptoms of estrogen dominance, and the blokes get the same except for the heavy periods, typically, they don’t get.

Stephen:                             No, no.

Elizma:                                  Hopefully not.

Matt:                                     So they’re the sort of things, you know, candida, otherwise obvious signs of thrush, you know, obviously that’s a major overgrowth.

Matt:                                     But a lot of people have an overgrowth but not a candidiasis as such. They don’t necessarily have to have thrush to say you’ve got candida.

Matt:                                     So look for those sort of symptoms or do the test and see if you’ve got markers of arabinose, is it?

Elizma:                                  Arabinose markers, yes, that’s one of the distinctive markers because that’s a metabolite that candida specifically produce and then we also have … We can look even beyond that with candida like manipulating the mitochondrial cycle, it will obviously start to up-regulate that glycolysis part of energy production which of then when we get the lactic acid production.

Matt:                                     Yeah, right.

Stephen:                             Now, just a background. Mitochondria is where we produce energy in the body and up-regulating a lactic acid cycle is anaerobic bacteria where we produce these acids in the body, metabolic acids, and they have an effect on our bodies, so you want to take [crosstalk 00:18:42]-

Matt:                                     So, now hang on. This is so cool, because a lot of our people out there are athletes and listening and they’ve just heard mitochondria and lactic acid.

Stephen:                             Yes.

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Matt:                                     But you’re talking about microbiome, aren’t you? You’re talking about the bugs in our guts generating lactic acid … Talking about their mitochondria and you’re saying that the chemicals released by those bugs and the surrounding bugs directly influences their mitochondria and potentially increasing such things as lactic acid.

Matt:                                     And you’ve also said that those chemicals that they’re making in the gut go through the whole body and into the urine, so they must do the same thing to us. So they create the same metabolic fatigue problems and-

Elizma:                                  Yes, absolutely. That’s why a lot of people who have candida, like overgrowth or anything else that’s up-regulating that cycle, they’ll feel like they’ve just run a marathon.

Elizma:                                  So they’ll have the fatigue and their body aches and pains, yet they don’t have enough energy to do exercise, so they feel the same as an athlete who’s just been to the gym-

Matt:                                     Do they go into those lactic acid cycles much faster? So for someone with an overgrowth of bad bugs contributing organic acids through their bodies, they go into the gym and do they then manifest symptoms of lactic acidosis much faster and?

Elizma:                                  Yes, well they’ll get sore very quickly, they’ll only be able to do a certain amount of exercise before their muscles just get too painful, [crosstalk 00:20:04]

Matt:                                     How does our body eliminate it, how does the body get rid of the build up of lactic acid apart from obviously some in the urine?

Matt:                                     So we sweat … Does it go sweat-

Elizma:                                  You sweat-

Stephen:                             You pant-

Matt:                                     panting, shallow breathing.

Elizma:                                  Creatine as well. Our body uses creatine to get rid of lactic acid which is why a lot of athletes use creatine supplements.

Matt:                                     Yeah, right.

Elizma:                                  But then creatine has to be made by the methylation cycle. Right? So, it’s part of the methylation cycle to make creatine.

Elizma:                                  But now you also need ATP or energy production for the methylation cycle to work, so it becomes a vicious circle.

Stephen:                             Use energy to make energy.

Elizma:                                  So if you’re … That’s right. So if that energy pathway is not working the way it should because of a candida overgrowth, your ability to make the creatine to get rid of that lactic acid diminishes.

Matt:                                     Yeah, right.

Elizma:                                  So it just builds up and builds up and yeah-

Matt:                                     And typically, you know when people do their sets of weights and then they’ll sit there and wait 30 seconds, that’s the time it takes to replenish the creatinal phosphates and that sort of stuff or is that [crosstalk 00:20:58]?

Elizma:                                  I’d say so. I’ve never really looked at the timing of it so-

Stephen:                             They say 30 to 45 seconds because you’ve got to have the electron transfer chain with the electrons going down, takes about 30 seconds-

Matt:                                     Yeah, so that’s why we do a set, we get the burning which is coming from the lactic acids and that sort of stuff-

Stephen:                             And also, the electron transfer chain going down pumps hydrogen ions out and as the hydrogen ions fall back into the mitochondria, that’s when you make ADP to turn into ATP.

Stephen:                             So that’s the process [crosstalk 00:21:23]-

Matt:                                     That’s the resting phase. So while we’re resting, all of sort of stuff is happening which is why we can be exhausted at the end of a set, wait 30 seconds and then do it again.

Stephen:                             Yeah and that’s where-

Matt:                                     But someone with a lactic acid issues, they’re not going to … And with those ATP deficits, the inability to methylate and create the creatine, they’re kind of going to go back into it and really go back into a burn quite quickly.

Elizma:                                  Yes, absolutely, yeah.

Stephen:                             And also this is where beta-alanine comes in to form, with histidine, to form carnosine, is it a buffer against that. So a lot of people who get a lot of benefits out of beta-alanine may want to also get benefits out of improving their gut function, for example.

Matt:                                     Right, absolutely.

Stephen:                             This is where it all comes from and this whole acid load that we’re talking about, of course, causes this incredible fatigue in the body and they go to their GP typically and the GP says, “Well, your thyroid and your iron are fine.”

Matt:                                     It’s depression, Steve. A sign of depression.

Stephen:                             Yeah. There’s nothing wrong with you.

Matt:                                     Well, okay, now let’s talk about that.

Matt:                                     Okay, so you go to the GP because you’re getting the fatigue.

Matt:                                     What did you say it was [crosstalk 00:22:18] again?

Stephen:                             Just metabolic fatigue.

Matt:                                     Yeah, metabolic fatigue.

Stephen:                             You’re just tired all the time.

Matt:                                     I forgot while I was at the gym, while I was at the doctor’s.

Matt:                                     So I’ve got metabolic fatigue because of lactic acids. I’m going to go in and say “Man, I try to exercise, I get the soreness, I recover really badly, I wake up the next day feeling terrible. The next day after that’s even worse and the third day I’m not going to the toilet because I can’t squat down.”

Matt:                                     You know, too much soreness and it’s settled and I’m going to the doctor. I must have chronic fatigue.

Matt:                                     The doctor then says “What other symptoms are you getting?” Because they want to ask questions and talk all the time. That’s bullshit. They don’t, no.

Matt:                                     So then you might also say, ” But I’m also suffering from anxiety.”

Matt:                                     So if you think of somebody with a lactic acid build up, the way we relieve that lactic acid, we discussed before, is shallow breathing. So lactic acid is a nerve irritant, a sympathetic nervous system irritant. It makes muscles contract and go spastic and that sort of stuff.

Matt:                                     So you imagine this scenario. You’re getting the fatigue, you’re waking up with soreness and that sort of stuff and this is what you’re telling the doctor.

Matt:                                     Along with it, you’ve got this shallow breathing. You’ve got this constant need to sigh, you’ll find yourself panting all the time, your sympathetic nervous system’s going spastic, so your brain’s not stopping thinking, you can’t let go.

Matt:                                     So with lactic acidosis, you manifest the symptoms of anxiety and panic. So you’ll manifest a panic attack, the hyperventilation of a panic attack, because it comes with chest tightness, it comes with a racing heart, it comes with the brain going, going, going.

Matt:                                     You’re then trying to pant this acid out, you’re sweating and all that sort of stuff you’ve mentioned that I’ve also got fatigue and the doctor’s basically said that, “Have you done your blood prescription?” Steve just prescribed me 10 milligrams of Valium.

Stephen:                             There you go Matt. That’s your solution. You’ve talked too much. There you go, 15 … That’s what seriously happens.

Matt:                                     So is that bulk bill?

Stephen:                             Yes, bulk bill, of course.

Matt:                                     Or do I just pay 70 bucks on the way out?

Stephen:                             It’s cheap that stuff.

Matt:                                     So, basically what these people are doing is they are … Someone that’s suffering from a lactic acid accumulation because of a candida overgrowth in their gut … Candida’s commensal, so when they do … Meaning it’s supposed to be there. And when they do testing, like IgA testing or something, they’re saying “Yeah, it’s there, but it’s always supposed to be there.”

Matt:                                     So that the challenge that you have is “When do I know I’ve go too much?”

Matt:                                     But if you went to the doctors and saying, “Oh, look, I’ve measured my candida, its overgrowth, I’ve measured this.” And they say, “Do you have thrush?” “No, I don’t even have a vagina, what?” No. No, you say like, “Do you have thrush or whatever,” and then I’m like “No.” And then I mention all these other symptoms, I mean that’s why you end up with these prescriptions.

Stephen:                             That’s it. You get that in a heartbeat.

Matt:                                     Because it manifests the symptoms of anxiety, depression, panic and in that instance, fatigue and soreness is a symptom of your depressive anxiety state.

Matt:                                     The cause may be an overgrowth of candida and a build up of lactic acid, none of which can be measured in the doctor’s studio, and even if it is…

Matt:                                     Studio?

Stephen:                             Yeah, flash [crosstalk 00:25:07].

Matt:                                     Flash [crosstalk 00:25:08]. I only go to the doctors in a studio, Steve. It’s exclusive.

Stephen:                             I was in the studio all weekend playing music.

Matt:                                     Weirdo. And then, yeah, so I can see how we end up in a pathway but I reckon there’s a lot of people out there, including me, that would never have gone through and associated the symptoms of anxiety, panic, fatigue, sport-induced asthma, respiratory acidosis, all of these sort of things, back to a candida overgrowth.

Elizma:                                  Absolutely, because there’s a histamine component here as well. I mean candida is a huge histamine producer and then a lot of people who get worse with exercise, that’s usually histamine reaction. So people who get flushed very quickly or they get their exercise-induced asthma, you know-

Matt:                                     Yeah, and a nervous rash and all of that sort of stuff.

Stephen:                             Histamine, for those who don’t know, is a chemical that’s released. It degranulates mast cells which causes vasodilation to allow for mucus to clear an allergan or something-

Matt:                                     Yeah, it’s that flushing reaction.

Stephen:                             It is a flushing reaction. So how does the Valium help your candida? That’s what script there. But it doesn’t, does it?

Elizma:                                  It doesn’t, no.

Matt:                                     No.

Stephen:                             It’s kind of like, it helps you settle your brain. Because you remember, like, the lactic acid is normally produced when you and I and Matt, we go to the gym, we run, and then we’re panting and we’re running like a crazy man trying to escape the thing, that’s actually a healthy reaction in exercising.

Elizma:                                  Exactly, it is.

Stephen:                             But if you’re doing it 24/7, imagine trying to sleep.

Matt:                                     Yeah. And that’s the other thing too man. You just mentioned before one of the problems with it is our bodies can’t keep up with the methylation requirements to generate the creatine to deal with the lactic acid.

Elizma:                                  That’s right.

Matt:                                     So in that instance, if we have got lactic acid irritating the sympathetic nervous system, creating stress response with manifests with catecholamine release including dopamine or adrenalin, we can’t COMT cattle-cothel methyltransferase, or whatever it’s bloody got … I’m trying to show I know some big bloody words too, you motherfuckers.

Stephen:                             Catechol-O-methyl transferase. That’s alright, that’s good-

Matt:                                     No. No, so with COMT, it actually uses the same methylation to actually clear away those neurotransmitters. So you get stuck in a vicious cycle where an overgrowth of a bloody normal bug that’s supposed to be there has just got out of control.

Matt:                                     Next thing you know, your food is being hijacked, you’re making going down the lactic acid pathways, that’s manifesting a system within your body, where overwhelm your methylation pathways. And I’m not saying in this instance that if we just overload you further with methylating supplements that all your problems are solved.

Matt:                                     Or if you go through and go “Wow, I can see all these signs of methylation defects, let’s go check that motherfucker gene”. You see me, some of there are … Am I supposed to say motherfucker now or that methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase or MTHFR. So we go and measure that little bastard and then go “Well, there’s your problem. You’ve got a MTFR polymorphism. Let’s give you an activated folate.”

Matt:                                     Is that the answer?

Elizma:                                  That’s definitely not the answer. No, it’s definitely not the answer because again, you can measure for MTHFR expression in the organic acid test.

Elizma:                                  Now, I cannot tell you how many people I’ve seen, because I go through thousands of these tests, and many people do have the genetic mutation on their MTHFR gene but their tests show that they are not expressing it. And then I have a lot of people with no gene mutations and they are expressing it because you have organisms that interfere here. You know, candida itself interferes with specific enzymes, I think, MTRR may be one of them or MTR in the methylation cycle. And you know, you made a very good point about the COMT gene because with talking about creatine but there’s a lot of those methyltransferase genes that depends on methylation and one of them is the PEMT one.

Elizma:                                  PEMT’s involved in making phospholipids, phospholipids is part of our bile production, so now your bile production gets compromised and bile is our natural antimicrobial in the gut.

Stephen:                             In the gut, yeah.

Elizma:                                  It’s the bile that’s … You know that highly alkaline bile that kills off bacteria, candida, and et cetera, et cetera. So by interfering with the methylation cycle, they also … And you know interfering with PMT production or the PMT enzyme function and phospholipid production, they’re also essentially creating the gut or they’re perpetuating the gut dysbiosis thing, which then makes them survive.

Stephen:                             And just to keep back, the bile is the brown stuff in your poo and it’s also the stuff that helps to emulsify fats. It’s released from the gall bladder and made in the liver, just to give people a bit of perspective on it.

Stephen:                             It’s interesting you’re talking about the MTHFR, I won’t go into the swear word for that one, but maybe not. Polymorphisms of this, which are issues with it, are associated with certain cancers, but doesn’t necessarily mean you will get these cancers, exactly what you were saying.

Stephen:                             And, you know, we always talk about these things as being a negative thing but I found a study here showing that if you have a polymorphism in 1298, there’s a 677 and the 1298. If you’ve got a problem with the 1298, you actually end up being stronger, physically stronger because-

Matt:                                     So what are you talking about? That’s if they measure the gene and say that you have the polymorphism in the gene, that the expression of the gene is different. What does that mean?

Elizma:                                  Well, a genetic mutation or a polymorphism usually accounts for 10% of a problem if there is a problem. 90% is the genetic expression and the genetic expression depends on your environment. So that’s your lifestyle, your diet, stress, all of that.

Elizma:                                  So, there’s an old saying that genes load the gun, but environment pulls the trigger.

Matt:                                     Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elizma:                                  So, you can load a gun, it doesn’t mean it’s going to kill someone.

Matt:                                     And just because you own a gun doesn’t mean you’re screwed, huh?

Elizma:                                  Exactly, exactly.

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Stephen:                             I own a gun.

Matt:                                     Do you?

Stephen:                             I’ve talked to you about my gun before. HLA-B27 gun.

Matt:                                     Oh yeah that stupid gun. Tell us about yours because it was expressed and [crosstalk 00:30:39]-

Stephen:                             It was expressed, I’ll tell you.

Stephen:                             When I was 20, I’d developed a terrible arthritis in my spine called ankylosing spondylitis, mystery at the time because I was 20, so that’s exactly 30 years ago and I was in hospital with this thing for about a month. It was awful. I was just a cripple and it expressed in a terrible way and got the uveitis in the eye and all sorts of other disease, weird things, you know, terrible, couldn’t walk, all that sort of stuff. And having that, and you know about 8-10% of Caucasians have this gene, so it’s not a mystery one.

Stephen:                             But what we know is that if you look at that gene, you’re at much less risk of developing AIDS or the hepatitis C virus. It can actually kill the hepatitis C virus because it’s the CD8 cells that are sort of over, not over-expressed in amounts, but over-expressed in activity. That’s what the HLA-B27.

Stephen:                             So you’ve got a stronger immune system, keeping it simple, which is terrible if you get an auto-immune disease, great if you’ve got an infectious disease. So if I was exposed to these viruses, I’d be better off than the next person.

Stephen:                             But, I could also get an auto-immune disease which ends up being a cripple and this paper shows you there’s no cure to it, which is rubbish, because I’ve cured it.

Matt:                                     No, you must have been misdiagnosed.

Stephen:                             Oh, misdiagnosed.

Elizma:                                  Yes.

Stephen:                             I had a Hib tendency-

Matt:                                     I’d rather admit to a misdiagnosis than allow someone to cure something and give them some feedback.

Stephen:                             It’s funny because I was in Alfred Hospital in Melbourne for a month so I was properly diagnosed. It wasn’t just a GP having a stab. This was blood tests, scans, everything, every day, so I definitely had this disease and it’s gone.

Stephen:                             I went for a 12k run this morning like you probably did, didn’t you, because you’re a runner?

Elizma:                                  With my run?

Stephen:                             Yeah did you go for a run this morning or something?

Elizma:                                  No, no I haven’t. Well, no.

Stephen:                             Don’t be silly.

Elizma:                                  I’m doing the walking thing at the moment.

Stephen:                             Ah, excellent.

Elizma:                                  Running end up creating a bit of you know … I get too hyped up with running. Yeah, so I’m doing the more calmer stuff.

Stephen:                             Good on you.

Matt:                                     Yeah, nice. I’m very mellow.

Matt:                                     But anyway, so with lactic acid, I mean we talked about one metabolic waste, it’s pretty bloody cool because, I mean, that’s the one that … It’s probably the one that’s easiest to feel and see-

Elizma:                                  In your muscles.

Matt:                                     A lot of people relate to it and that sort of stuff. I want to talk to you, probably not today because it’s a massive topic, because that does link in with this calcium influx stuff and there’s a lot of information to talk about how calcium is used to regulate on and off switches in the body, regulate pH and a lot of that would have to be responsive to these big movements of acid through your body, wouldn’t it?

Elizma:                                  Absolutely, absolutely. Because now if you see high lactic acid levels, especially on a continual basis, short term with exercise is okay. But if you have this continually happening, the body uses calcium or ionic calcium as a buffer, as a kind of a way to neutralize some of these acids and so that’s what your body’s constantly having to do with the calcium. It will eventually dysregulate the intra and extra cellular calcium ratios and you start … When that becomes dysregulated, it will start affecting mitochondrial function and then-

Matt:                                     So, the lactic acid’s made inside the cells, huh?

Elizma:                                  They’re inside the cells, they’re outside the mitochondria but they’re inside the cell.

Matt:                                     In the watery part.

Stephen:                             Cytoplasm if you want … Take it away.

Elizma:                                  Yeah, cytoplasm.

Matt:                                     So outside … So if we have a look at where the calcium lives, the calcium’s living in the extra cellular fluids, so that’s outside mainly with magnesium inside and?

Elizma:                                  Well, when we’re talking about the efflux and influx of calcium, we’re talking about the inside the mitochondria and outside so again within the cytoplasm of the cell and inside the mitochondria where the endoplasmic reticulum inside there, mitochondria [crosstalk 00:34:09]-

Matt:                                     And they’re all little oily structures, aren’t they? They’re like a little oily membrane sitting in a big bucket of water and then that bucket of water all of a sudden has become really acidic.

Matt:                                     So that could damage a lot of those oily structures and at the same time, it activates these on switches which creates this calcium to turn on the switch or whatever and then just for the people out there who understand where magnesium sits in this, magnesium then goes in and blocks the calcium from coming in.

Matt:                                     And does that create a magnesium deficiency or is that why, overloading magnesium seems to help in certain situations?

Elizma:                                  Definitely, definitely, it could be a factor there because you know, you have your calcium channels, NMDA receptors and things like that, that’s all regulated by calcium and we often use magnesium to help with regulating some of those transport mechanisms because if that becomes dysregulated you get the anxiety and we get a lot of the muscle cramps, even seizure activity if it’s you know [crosstalk 00:35:11]-

Matt:                                     Because the calcium is never going to run out, really.

Stephen:                             No it takes from your bones-

Elizma:                                  No you take it from the bones, yeah-

Matt:                                     I mean it’s going to take it from your bones and teeth, where magnesium. We can-

Elizma:                                  That will run out, yeah.

Matt:                                     That can actually run out so while you’ve got this build up of acidity driving these calcium channels, the calcium’s going to come through, but then we can get a relative magnesium deficiency and even taurine, because taurine helps to reinforce that magnesium block.

Stephen:                             Yes, so just, NMDA is N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors and they can be activated by glutamic acid which is a stimulant in the nerves and so that drives the influx of calcium into the cell which typically switches a cell on, so it contracts the muscle or it stimulates a nerve.

Stephen:                             So if you have too much, say, aspartame, in an artificial way, can overstimulate the brain or if you had monosodium glutamate, that can overstimulate the brain that’s we get the Chinese restaurant’s syndromes because it artificially activates those things. When you’re [crosstalk 00:36:01]-

Matt:                                     What about glutamine?

Stephen:                             What?

Matt:                                     What about glutamine? Have you ever, you know, so if people overdose glutamine and they’ve got a series of events such as acid, calcium driving, initiating a requirement for glutamic acid activation of a nerve, will glutamine be dragged down that pathway towards glutamic acid?

Elizma:                                  Yeah, it’s a very common thing. It’s one of the reasons why I’m not a huge fan of supplement in some people, especially with the kids with ADD, they often can do worse on glutamine than better and unfortunately that’s what they use for gut healing and all of that, right?

Elizma:                                  But glutamine is very easy to disassociate in the gut into glutamic acid and ammonia and so then you have an over-excitation of glutamic acid and then you have the ammonia which then essentially neutralizes the stomach acid or creates an environment for more organisms to grow and then the brain, you have your ammonia causing brain fog and it’s very toxic to the neural cells.

Matt:                                     I’m so glad you mention it because that I was about to … That’s where I was going to go next. Because in my experience, when I picked up someone in my clinic who had ammonia issues, the worst thing I could do was give him glutamine.

Matt:                                     And I found that glycine was beneficial. Sorry, I used to try to find products that had like a magnesium diglycinate or a supplement with glycine, but they all bloody had a glutamine as well and I could … There was a definite problem with glutamine with ammonia. And the way to know if you got ammonia, apart from the fact that you smell like ammonia, it makes you really aggressive. You get these brain fog and then you get this really irrational behavior, like this, you look kind of cool and then you get a little trigger in. But you’re really aggressive so you see a lot of violence and a lot of people lashing out. And they have that funny smell of ammonia like a bloke mechanicey smelly kind of thing. Anyway, so you see these little-

Stephen:                             Just upset little kids-

Matt:                                     Ah, they’re fine. Bloody hell, they ‘re not the sensitive mob we have to worry about. Okay so the industrial cleaners, I should say actually. So the ammonia smell … But the behavior, the manifestations, the irrational behavior, the overproduction of perspiration and that sort of stuff. And if those people take glutamine, they get so much worse. There’s a lot of bodybuilders out there taking mega doses of … And I’m talking massive doses of glutamine.

Matt:                                     And then there’s a lot of people in the gym I go to, I could smell the ammonia across the room, so-

Elizma:                                  Really? Wow.

Matt:                                     Yeah, man. So there’s stinky people out there. So if you have got these manifestations of aggression, you stink a bit like ammonia, your brain-fogged and all that sort of stuff, cut back on the glutamine.

Elizma:                                  Yeah. Just [inaudible 00:38:36] said that’s going to disrupt nitrogen balance in your body, so-

Stephen:                             Sorry.

Elizma:                                  But another interesting, and I’m not talking about symptoms of it, but I’ve also noticed in my clinic is I’ve seen women with very high levels of ammonia and they have sometimes a very glassy … It’s like they’re not there. You look at their eyes, but they’ve got this glassiness over their eyes, and it’s like they’re just not there.

Elizma:                                  And it’s incredibly, like when you start removing the ammonia, getting the kidneys to sort of like dump it, it’s like they just come back to life. And then like, you know … I remember one of my female clients saying that her husband said, “It’s like I’ve got my wife back.” And she never realized that she was in that distant kind of far place but it’s because it’s creating a lot of neurological dysregulation.

Matt:                                     And it just drives that stress nervous system. You get stuck in a defensive posture. So you kind of get stuck in this survival mode all the time, you never get into thrival. That never works, survival and thrival, we’re supposed to survive and thrive, but you find you get stuck into those things and then it constantly drives those receptors or that stress nervous system. Your body can’t afford to wait to see if you’ve been poisoned, if you’ve been hit by a venom or a spider or whatever or where this pain or stuff’s come from. So your body reacts and you get stuck that way, especially if it’s a biochemical waste, because a lot of these things settle when you settle, meaning that when you’re busy all day, and you’re sweating and you’re breathing and you’re going to the toilet and all that sort of stuff, these metabolic wastes are constantly moving, which is why a lot of us wake up feeling … So if someone’s got lactic acid and ammonia problems, usually, first thing in the morning is when you feel really stuck, huh?

Elizma:                                  Yeah, yeah.

Matt:                                     And you can’t move, just until you get that blood moving and all this metabolic waste starts switching around. And that’s why with this testing, I tell you to do it first thing in the morning typically, to allow all these metabolic wastes to accumulate without the meals, without the sweating, without all that panting and all that sort of stuff so-

Stephen:                             And the ammonia’s interesting. Because ammonia is in all amino acids, because amino acids has an amine group, a carboxylic acid by definition. And so you can easily overload on like the glutamines, you can take gram doses, which can be beneficial in some people. But it depends on the GABAergic level in the brain. And if that’s too low, because they’re too stressed, GABA’s low and glutamic acid’s high, you get terrible stimulation of the brain and they lose, so it’s quite-

Elizma:                                  Yeah, that’s right. So again, that’s a good point. There’s not such thing as a bad thing or a good thing-

Stephen:                             It’s ratios.

Elizma:                                  So we sometimes make the glutamic acid as, “Oh this is bad because it creates excitation and insomnia and all of that kind of stuff.” But it’s also involved in learning. So glutamic acid is very important for memory retention and stuff like that, so it’s all about the balance and the ratios of everything.

Matt:                                     Yeah, this ammonia … You know when people talk about their protein or something and they talk about nitrogen retention, that’s linked into ammonia isn’t it?

Stephen:                             It is.

Elizma:                                  That’s right.

Matt:                                     So when people talk about nitrogen retention, part of that nitrogen retented might be in the form of ammonia.

Stephen:                             Yeah it is because ammonia biochemically is NH three. It’s the most simple form of nitrogen. And then you get ammonic acid which is NH four plus. So you can be acidic form or the base form, but that’s a very basic form of nitrogen and a breakdown product of amino acids. Normally, we got to remember in the average healthy person, it’s metabolized and we know how to deal with it, we’re all good with that. But if there’s something stuck, we’ve got a kidney [inaudible 00:41:51] eGFR might be below 50 in some people, naturally. Because you got to remember the eGFR is the glomerular filtration rate for your kidneys. And it can be normally from 60 to 90, and if you’re just 60, then you’re not going to metabolize it even if you have it in the right amount, as much as someone at 90.

Stephen:                             And so it depends on, you know, a function of your kidneys.

Elizma:                                  [crosstalk 00:42:14]. Urea cycle as well.

Stephen:                             Yeah, urea cycle.

Elizma:                                  So, yeah. Yeah. Because that’s something I see a lot, especially in chronically ill people, urea cycle deficits.

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Stephen:                             Urea cycle is a cycle in the body that gets rid of uric acid and all that sort of stuff too. So they could be malabsorbed and you can have a build of uric acid like I do, and naturally. It’s there all the time, no matter what I do and what I do, it’s always slightly elevated. But I don’t get gouty things because I’m active and all that sort of thing, and uric acid has, again like all these organic acids, they have a positive effect as well.

Elizma:                                  Yeah, they got an antioxidant-

Stephen:                             Uric acid … Perfect. Protecting against cancer too, prostate, breast cancer. Uric acid is not the enemy. Medically you just treat it with Zyloprim which stops the production of it. Very sad, really. So-

Matt:                                     So the other ones that people always ask about is ketones-

Elizma:                                  Yeah, yeah.

Matt:                                     So how does this fit in with this organic acid part? When do we use ketones, what’s the purpose of ketones?

Elizma:                                  So ketones is an energy molecule. And if you take the brain, for instance, the brain will either use glucose or ketones as a source of energy. In fact, the brain … It’s more beneficial for the brain to use ketones as a source of energy.

Matt:                                     And they’re a byproduct of fat burning, hey?

Elizma:                                  They are a byproduct of fat metabolism and it’s another organic acid. And if ketones are allowed to build up in the body, again it can create acidity or a pH dysregulation in the body. But it’s a big thing because there’s so many ketone products on the market-

Matt:                                     Oh I know.

Elizma:                                  And I sort of looked at this and, it’s going a little bit off-topic, but why they try to sell ketone products as a way of losing weight, and it’s like, but you’re essentially down-regulating your own body’s pathway of producing ketones if you’re taking a ketone product. Because everyone thinks it’s about measuring your ketones on a urine stick, and if it’s high, you must be losing weight. It’s like no, that’s not what it means

Matt:                                     Yeah, let’s tell people. So those ketone sticks where originally … The reason why they’re available in pharmacies and health food stores is because diabetics need it to measure their ketones because if they’re not capable of burning sugar for fuel, because of the diabetic complications, they make ketones because they’re having to break down these fats instead. The byproduct of that is ketones. If they get too many ketones, they got to think, well ketoacidosis which kills them. So the reason why those sticks exist is to actually measure the ketones to make sure they don’t get too high so you don’t die. Now what’s happened is because there is a difference between ketogenic diets or ketogenic systems and exogenous ketones, so what they’re using is they’re using this data to show that when you’re naturally burning fat through carbohydrate or calorie restriction or whatever, or higher fat diet, it depends on whether you’re in a calorie surplus or a calorie deficit, whether you’re burning the fat from your food or the fat from your body, really.

Matt:                                     So with these people, they use data to show that when someone’s forced to burn fat, they generate ketones. And that measurement of the ketones confirms that their diet strategy is working and forcing their body to burn fat. So then they use that data, showing high urinary ketones, indicates fat loss to sell a product where you drink the ketones and wee out the ketones. And then you go, “Hey, I must be burning fat.” No, you’ve just weed out ketones. So the stick, when it changes color, tells you that it’s measured ketones. Those ketones can either come from you burning your fat within your body or they can come from a supplement. So they can … On the organic acid [inaudible 00:45:58], they’re related to microbiome as well, the ketones and-

Elizma:                                  It could certainly be. You can read it a few different ways, like it can indicate sometimes blood sugar issues, but usually you’d have to have high blood sugar readings on a blood test to sort of look at that. I find it more … Obviously people who are on ketogenic diets will have higher levels. One of the markers … See I always forget the big names, I used to know them all and there’s just too much information to remember, but the 3-hydroxybutyric acid is like what they would technically call your stored ketones. Now it’s not really correct, but that’s how we simplify things. And then you have your acetoacetate which is the ketones that your burn off.

Elizma:                                  So it’s common to sometimes see … Because remember, you’d take this urine test the first thing in the morning, right? So it is sometimes common to see the 3-hydroxybutyric acid high and the acetoacetate low, because you wouldn’t have done any exercise while you’re sleeping, so your body’s not burning off ketones. So it’s very common to see that ratio, and I don’t usually worry about it.

Elizma:                                  What you would then expect is that an athlete who does the same test after training, you would expect that acetoacetate to be higher because now you’re burning off ketones. So you always have to look at the results in context of what the person’s doing and in the context of their lifestyle to make sense out of it. But a lot of people who are fasting or who have a very fast metabolism or have a chronic illness and their body just doesn’t really know how to use fuels appropriately will get these very high levels of ketones dumped in the urine, because ketones is also if you have … Especially both of them dumped, it’s like the body doesn’t know what to do with it. It’s like, “Oh, I got all these ketones, but I don’t really know what to do with it,” and so it’ll just get dumped into the urine.

Matt:                                     So if you supplement with more … Sorry. If you supplement with more, then the negative feedback is going to say to your body, “We’re at a level were we don’t want anymore.”

Elizma:                                  That’s right, slow it down.

Matt:                                     That only way your body can stop it from slowing down … It can’t tell you to stop drinking the ketones, well it can but you’re probably going to ignore it because you read the brochure.

Elizma:                                  That’s right.

Matt:                                     But the only way it can do it is tell your body to not burn fat to generate more.

Elizma:                                  Exactly, exactly.

Matt:                                     So the concept of using exogenous ketones to stimulate fat loss-

Elizma:                                  It’s actually counter-productive.

Stephen:                             Yeah, it’s counter-productive.

Matt:                                     It’s opposite. It’s actually the limiting factor with your ketogenic-style diets is your build up of urinary ketones. It’s when they get to a certain point, they’re switching it off. So, yeah, wow.

Stephen:                             Well, remember we did a podcast, I don’t know, about 18 months ago, where we talked about it, taking exogenous ketones from raspberry ketones causing switching off fat loss. If you can google on ATP Science webpage, you can look up ketones, we have a massive website on it where we totally agree with what you said about ketones can be very beneficial for the brain. We went back to the studies in the 20s where we showed its benefits dramatically refractory epilepsy, which is epilepsy that can’t be treated with medications. And also very very good for cancers and these sorts of things so there is a use.

Matt:                                     That’s what the supplements are for though, it’s to try to maintain a consistent level of ketones for anti-seizure epileptic [crosstalk 00:49:03]-

Elizma:                                  Yeah, that’s where exogenous ketones have a role to play. So if you use it for a therapy, that’s fine.

Matt:                                     Good for nootropic, really good for your study.

Stephen:                             Good for your brain.

Elizma:                                  That’s right, but not for weight loss, yeah.

Matt:                                     But not for weight loss.

Stephen:                             When I did my masters, we just went pure ketone diet just to get the brain going so you remember this stuff, otherwise it was … It was the only thing that helped, because the exams were horrendous, you know-

Matt:                                     It can take three, four, five, take a week, you know for certain people to get into ketosis properly. So [crosstalk 00:49:26]-

Stephen:                             We used to cheat, we used to go for a two-hour run.

Matt:                                     Yeah, so for the sake of … Yeah, well I’m not doing that, I’ll just cut out my toast for a week.

Matt:                                     So then what you’re looking at in regards to nootropic and the benefit of supplementing ketones in a nootropic or for study, that’s the benefit of those things-

Stephen:                             Very good.

Matt:                                     So you can do through and go, “Right, I could go ketogenic calorie deficit, cut out the carbs and do that for a week, get into full ketosis, then my brain’s going to be sharp, or I can drink some of this stuff and study and have that fuel coming through to a certain degree.” [crosstalk 00:49:56].

Stephen:                             Contraindicated for type one diabetics. You don’t want to do that because they can’t regulate it because they don’t have the insulin released to slow down ketoacidosis.

Elizma:                                  That’s right, yeah.

Matt:                                     Just that people-

Stephen:                             No. Okay. Well that was part one of an amazing podcast with Elizma and next week we’re going to be doing part two and we’re going to dive even deeper into the biochemistry.

announcer 2:                      Thanks for listening! And remember, question everything. Well, except for what we say.