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Episode 205 – Organic Acids and Metabolic Waste with Elizma Lambert – Part 2

In this episode of the ATP Project, Matt and Steve chat with naturopath Elizma Lambert.  This is part 2 of a 2 part episode. The guys talk to Elizma about organic acids and the Organic Acid Test.  They also discuss metabolic waste – the by-products that come from our energy production pathways, how it can manifest symptoms in our body and influence our quality of life and how we can manipulate these pathways to get enhanced performance.





Stephen:             Welcome to the ATP Podcast. Today we have an amazing special guest, and we’re going to be talking about biochemistry, which of course I love to bits. We’re going to talk about an organic acid testing. We’re going to be talking about metabolic wastes in the body, and all sorts of biochemistry, and all the things we can do to improve our wellness and functional health. And this is part two, so sit back and enjoy.

Speaker 2:           As always, this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any condition, and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information in this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start.

Speaker 3:           Welcome to the ATP Project, delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance, and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax, and open your mind as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo, and discuss everything health-related that can make you better.

Matt:                     I’m just trying to piece it all together because I’m really fascinated by all of it. The thing is, as we’re talking, I’m imagining my friends, I’m imagining different symptom pictures and trying to piece it all together. So, for someone, when they go and do this organic acid test-

Elizma:                  Yup, this is what it looks like.

Matt:                     They go and measure in their urine, that sort of stuff, but it’s got to be related back to symptom picture, hey?

Elizma:                  Absolutely.

Matt:                     You can’t just get this test done and then create a prescription based on that.

Elizma:                  Absolutely not.

Matt:                     You’ve got to ask him, “What have you done?”

Elizma:                  That’s right. It’s one of the things, you know, all of these tests come back with a little blurb at the back, like this marker means this, you need to take this supplement. And I usually tell people, whether it’s practitioners or people, “Throw that away. It doesn’t mean anything.” You’re just going to end up taking a whole bunch of supplements because you have to look at this in terms of patterns to get an idea of… It gives you a three dimensional picture of the person’s biochemistry, so it’s really about getting the full picture and even, you wouldn’t even treat every single marker that shows up normal on there. I’ve found that if you get the key stuff there, you treat that, all of the other markers return to normal because it’s just a way the biochemistry has shifted.

Matt:                     So what do you see commonly? What’s a common metabolic waste? What’s a-

Elizma:                  Oh, oxalic acid is very common.

Matt:                     Really.

Stephen:             We’ve done a podcast on it.

Matt:                     The oxalic acid, so for people that have a problem with oxalates, they get… It’s a real nerve irritant, hey?

Elizma:                  Nerve irritant, it also inhibits the pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme, so it essentially-

Stephen:             Krebs cycle and what not

Elizma:                  Down regulates the mitochondrial function as well and it’s a very, very strong chelator the same as what EDTA is which means it holds onto heavy metals.

Stephen:             Ethylene diamine Tetraacetic Acid for those who don’t know.

Elizma:                  Yeah, so it holds onto heavy metals in the body.

Matt:                     No one knows that Steve.

Stephen:             No, I just want to… When I used to teach it, people used to use-

Matt:                     And there is a quiz at the end of this podcast.

Stephen:             Yeah, people use acronyms. I always try to say, “Now what’s the word for that?” You know, my student-

Elizma:                  I’m glad you know the big words.

Stephen:             Because I used to fail them if they just said EDTA.

Matt:                     Oh, really.

Stephen:             I said, “Sorry, I don’t know what an EDTA is.” and so I tell them what it is. But very interestingly, because you’ve got to remember that oxalates … What would happen if I drunk a beautiful kale smoothie with almonds and blueberries in it, and because I want to be healthy because I’m one of the vegan activists that are around and I have these beautiful kale smoothies. That’s loaded with oxalates about a gram of it, considering our average intake’s about a 100 mg, one tenth of that. So that would drive up my oxalic acid dramatically, yet I think I’m doing something super duper healthy.

Elizma:                  That’s right. The green smoothie fad, so… And again, nothing against it, it’s all about the ratios. If you use-

Stephen:             Oh, I’m against it.

Elizma:                  If you use a ton of spinach and things like that. Kale on the other hand, kale contains sulfur and sulfur somehow mitigates the oxalate absorption, so Kale is not as detrimental as spinach, but the big thing is more that we’ve lost our microbiome diversity, because there is your Oxalobacter formigenes, I think is a bacteria that degrades it, so now we’ve had triple antibiotic treatments for H. Pylori and who knows what else?

Stephen:             Helicobacter pylori.

Elizma:                  Helicobacter pylori, so now we don’t have the gut bacteria that usually would break it down, which is why, I think, we’re seeing more of that stuff in today’s modern society.

Matt:                     For those people out there going, “Oh, I don’t know what they’re talking about, oxalic acid, blah, blah, blah.” If you’re any one of those people that has tried to get really healthy and fix up your diet and then everything has gone to shit, that’s possibly you. What happens is the healthy foods, so we’re talking about sweet potatoes, spinach, almonds.

Elizma:                  Almond flour, the whole paleo diets.

Matt:                     Yeah, those almond meals, all these nut meals. If you try to go really healthy and incorporate all these foods into your diet and then all of a sudden, everything starts to hurt, everything starts to ache, your guts go weird, your waterworks go weird, your brain goes a little bit weird, and then you probably get told you’re going through a healing crisis by other naturopaths.

Matt:                     What you gotta realize is with this oxalic acid, it creates pain, in particular to joint pain, it creates crystals, very similar, we were talking about uric acid before, oxalic acid crystals are very similar. What actually happens is these oxalates are found in all those good healthy foods.

Matt:                     Why are they still good healthy foods? Normally because we have a diverse microbiome. We have strains of bugs that will actually deplete the oxalates, so when you’re eating all these oxalates but only 10 percent of it should be absorbed into your body, most of it should be going straight through, but if you have had your helicopter, your antibiotics for your helicopter and your pylori, and then you’ve had that, and it’s ruined your diversity, with the antibiotics has allowed things like Candida and Clostridium to grow, those things generate oxalates, don’t they?

Elizma:                  That’s right. That’s right.

Matt:                     What happens is you go from eating a good healthy diet where your body is taking in the great nutrients, all the low GI carbs or whatever that’s coming with fiber, all that great stuff coming out of those great foods. You’ve lost your microbiome that would normally deplete the oxalates and you’ve replaced it with Candidas and Clostridiums that actually make it.

Matt:                     All of a sudden, instead of 10 percent of your dietary load of oxalates getting into your body, you might have 150 percent of your dietary load. All of a sudden, it’s a massive switch. These oxalates go into our body. The way we eliminate it, oxalates do go through sweat, don’t they? We can sweat out oxalates.

Stephen:             No, but you urinate them out. If you get too many of them, the most common cause of kidney stones is oxalic [crosstalk 00:06:44]

Matt:                     And that’s also where vitamin C is bad for kidney stones, because it increases that pathway too.

Elizma:                  Yes. It’s too much, yeah.

Matt:                     This is a funny thing. Sometimes people think I’m an idiot when my prescriptions, because sometimes with oxalate people, I used to send them into a pharmacy because I didn’t have this shit in my dispensary, and I used to send them into a pharmacy, “Get the cheapest, shittiest calcium you can find. One that doesn’t get absorbed. Go buy calcium carbonate or something like that, a shitty one, and have that before your meals,” so that way the calcium would bind to the oxalates in the guts, because the calcium oxalate crystal is quite large and it doesn’t get absorbed, so you poo it out.

Matt:                     Then I tell them to use a good quality magnesium, like a magnesium citrate that’s going to get absorbed through your body, so the magnesium is available to bind the oxalate so you can wee it out because of the magnesium oxalate crystals look like tiny little envelopes. They look like envelopes.

Stephen:             They’re weird looking things.

Matt:                     They look just like an envelope. You know your little email signature? Your little email symbol? It looks exactly like that. It’s freaky. But the magnesium ones make these tiny crystals that are small enough to wee out. These people go, “Oh, you don’t want that shit calcium. What sort of a naturopath have you got?” Then they go and sell them some gourmet stuff. No! I wanted the shit!

Elizma:                  Yeah, because you don’t want the calcium to be absorbed. You just want it to stay in your gut.

Matt:                     That’s why Dolamide used to be so good for pain and emotion. Remember the old school naturopath, “Oh, give everyone Dolamide.” It’s just calcium and magnesium carbonate or something, right?

Stephen:             Loved it. Loved the old days.

Matt:                     That oxalic acid is really interesting, because when you have a link from everything we’ve said, again, it goes back to the Candidas, it goes back to the Clostridium. Oxalic acid, because it’s a nerve irritant, has anyone seen any data linking oxalic acid with autisms and that as well? I wonder if that’s one of those-

Stephen:             ADHA it does.

Elizma:                  I think there is a paper on it too.

Stephen:             ADHA it does.

Matt:                     Yeah, because I know for a fact when we go through and eradicate all these bugs and that sort of stuff that we get a much better symptom picture from it.

Elizma:                  Because oxalic acid can store anywhere in the body. We think about it as just kidney stones, no, it can sit in the tissues the muscles, the thyroid, they found it in the heart. You can get oxalate crystals in your heart.

Stephen:             Very much so.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Joints and that. It contributes to a lot of pain.

Elizma:                  If you look at it under a microscope, of course they used to do a lot of live blood microscopies, they look like little shards of glass.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elizma:                  When you mobilize them, also when you start to get rid of them, it’s painful.

Matt:                     And the fascia. They all just glue up all through that fascia.

Elizma:                  It’s very uncomfortable.

Matt:                     And then dehydration would make it worse, wouldn’t it?

Elizma:                  Yes.

Stephen:             The human body should be able to deal with these acids, it’s just that some people they can’t because the microbiome with the genes, same thing really because-

Elizma:                  Well, bile dysregulation.

Stephen:             Yeah, exactly.

Matt:                     There now is a bile fit in there as well, by regulating the microbiome still, or is there another-

Elizma:                  That’s one role, but there is a more direct role. If you have, for instance, let’s say you do have a fatty meal with oxalates in it, let’s say an omelet with spinach in it or something like that, right?

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah.

Elizma:                  If you are not producing enough bile, then the fats in the meal will actually bind to the calcium in the meal and create what we call calcium soaps, so that makes the calcium unavailable to bind to the oxalates and get it out, so now oxalates become more absorbable, because it’s like the fats and the calcium is occupying each other so now you have more free floating oxalates in the gut, so now you have more absorption.

Stephen:             The process in the body is called saponification if you want to google it. If you want to.

Matt:                     I remember a lot of data talking about calcium for fat loss, and it used to talk about that, the actual binding and the clearance of the fats through the calcium, if you have lots of calcium in your meals. I always use dairy as an example, because apparently we get an abundance of calcium from dairy. Most of it is shitty stuff floating around the guts, which actually works on that ability to bind to the fats and help that clear, but if you’ve got oxalate issues, that would make it worse.

Stephen:             That’s why they first hypothesized cheese being very good for fat loss, but they figured out it was the conjugated linoleic acid in the cheese that helped the fat loss. They thought it was calcium and then they did a placebo trial with calcium and cheese, and the cheese worked. Even though it had massive calories, but it was because of the conjugated linoleic acid, the C9-11 form.

Matt:                     That’s cool. Which only would come from the grass fed cows anyway, wouldn’t it? Not the grain fed.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Stephen:             Oh yeah, grass fed cows.

Matt:                     That’s cool, man. When you run through these organic acids, just to summarize, these organic acids we’re talking about, some are waste products, some are fuels. They’ve all got a purpose, but we were talking about the energy production pathways in every cell of our body, and then now, also, there’s 10 times as many cells of foreign organisms living in our guts that all have these mitochondrias, and not only are they producing these wastes, but they’re supposed to be involved in the metabolism and removal of these wastes.

Matt:                     A disrupted microbiome, this is why there’s so much new research now going in to the effects of exercise on microbiome, but we need to have a lot more data coming out on what your microbiome profile. The problem is that a lot of them are qualitative tested, not quantitative, meaning that a lot of the microbiome testing saying, yes it’s there, or no it’s not, but they’re not giving you the proper levels and that sort of stuff, so doing a proper stool analysis is a bit hard, because the OAT is better.

Matt:                     Because the stool analysis, weird people like myself might spend a bit of time looking at poo if curiosity and I’ve even done … remember we used to do HemaViews and I used to do the poo views and put them on a slide, just because I was curious.

Elizma:                  Lovely!

Matt:                     Oh man, it was so cool to see the weird shit lying around, literally!

Stephen:             Weird shit.

Matt:                     The funniest thing is, when you’re looking at your poo, you actually do have little colonies of Candida in there, and unless you’re digging through it to make sure you get a little bit of this color, little bit of that, little bit of this strain.

Elizma:                  Yeah, that’s a lot of stuff. And it’s not just that. There’s quality control issues with labs. I remember we once sent the same sample to four different labs and got four different reports from all of them. Also, I know there was a recent study that showed that parasites, for instance can self destruct between being transported to the lab, so it’s very hard to catch parasites on stool samples.

Stephen:             There’s a new test method called R16SRNA testing, which tests the genome of the bug. It’s a university test, but it may become more popular, and we’ll have to keep our eye out for it, where it may become available. It’s a recent.

Matt:                     Is it quantitative as well?

Stephen:             It’s quantitative and qualitative.

Elizma:                  It’s not the GI map, is it? Because the GI map-

Stephen:             No, no, it’s not that. It’s a bit more specific than that. It measures RNA levels and qualitative and quantitative.

Matt:                     Yeah, cool.

Stephen:             It’s very recent.

Matt:                     I was nervous that the microbiome research was going to go down the same path as the genetic research where people go through and measure it, “Oh, you’ve got this bug. You’re screwed.” Or, “You don’t have that bug. We’ll give you that bug, all your problems are solved.” Because that’s where the genetic testing has gone, so I was really nervous the microbiome was going to do the same.

Stephen:             We’re all fans of Dr. Lynch and the Dirty Genes book. Very interesting read, but if you’ve got a gene, unless it’s a … what I consider a dirty gene is the Huntington’s chorea gene, which is on number four, which means that if you’ve got that gene, you’re going to get Huntington’s, there’s no ifs or buts about it. That’s a gene that programs you to get a neurological disease because you can’t make a protein in your brain. Guess what the protein’s called? Huntington. Named it after Huntington’s and [inaudible 00:14:20] fame.

Stephen:             It’s funny because he named the disease and the protein after himself. Loved it. Two things. That’s a bad gene, but other genes, like my HLA-B and all the other things are not necessarily bad, so you want to explain how certain genes-

Matt:                     Yeah, that confuses me a bit. I’ll need you to explain that.

Elizma:                  Dr. Lynch’s book, it talks about dirty genes, he’s actually talking about environment and the expression of it.

Stephen:             Yes.

Elizma:                  That’s actually exactly what he wanted to clarify, that it’s not about the mutation, it’s about the environment. When he says a dirty gene and how to clean your genes, if you’ve been exposed to toxins or what have you, it’s going to make these genes dirty and to clean it you have to change your diet, change your lifestyle and all of that.

Elizma:                  It’s more about the expression of the gene and how our environment and our diet and our lifestyle and stress affect it. Interestingly enough, stress is a huge trigger for gene expression. It really underestimates the ability of how stress can affect both our mitochondrial function and our gene expression.

Elizma:                  You always think there has to be a toxin. There has to be a heavy metal or something like that, and chronic stress exposure can have the same kind of an effect.

Matt:                     And what freaks us out about that is when you actually look at the definition of what a stress is, it’s anything that makes a change in your body. You can’t afford to wait. It could be something different every time, and they’re just on top of each other, on top of each other. You never get a break from stress.

Elizma:                  No, no, no.

Stephen:             Exactly. And if you had my gene, and you exposed that to a Klebsiella pneumonia, you’re screwed. But if you’re exposed to HIV, you’re fine. That’s the trigger. If you look up Klebsiella and you google it now, you’ll say, it’s fairly harmless and it doesn’t affect anyone, but it does affect people with HIV27.

Elizma:                  It’s very inflammatory. The people actually with Klebsiella actually have a lot of pain. Yeah, yeah.

Stephen:             Yeah, if you got this gene, you’re absolutely screwed. You’re in hospital. Thanks. Now I know that very well. This science in your genes and these sort of things and this genetic … I love the fact that he does talk about the environment.

Matt:                     This is why I don’t believe naturopaths can talk about cures anyway, because you can’t cure the environment. We’re looking at all this stuff. It’s a management. It’s always management.

Elizma:                  The fact is, it’s just that our genes have not had time to … we’ve always gone through evolution where our genes adapt to circumstances, but the industrial revolution came so quick, our genes didn’t have the time to evolve, which is why we have all these chronic illnesses.

Matt:                     Genetic, polymorphism. Polymorphism is not a synonym for defect. A lot of people, “Oh, that’s a big word. What’s polymorphism mean?”

Matt:                     “Oh, it’s just another word for defect.”

Matt:                     No it’s not. It’s a variation of the gene. If we got back to the MTHFR one that we talk about a fair bit because everyone else asks about it, that there benefit, we talked about its ability to do the strength, but also, you could imagine a gene that would allow, when you’re going through times of feast and famine and stress, a genetic polymorphism that allows your stress chemicals to be recycled and float around more, your estrogens to be recycled and float around more, during times of feast and famine, that was beneficial. They survived, plus it makes them stronger.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Matt:                     Those people breed … those bastards. Those people breed. That’s why they’re everywhere. And the other people that didn’t have that polymorphism died off. Didn’t get a chance to reproduce, which is why there’s less. You know what I mean?

Stephen:             Yeah!

Matt:                     We talk about this sympathetic nervous system dominance we see all the time, but these are all people that have inherited and acquired traits that have allowed them to survive in the past, but now we’re exposed to so many weird little things that our body will manifest a stress response to, and even when we’re asleep, those things don’t disappear. We just get stuck.

Matt:                     Now, with this new understanding of the microbiome, now there’s 10 times as many of those buggers, what is it, 150 times the amount of genetic materials or some shit like that?

Elizma:                  They say, yeah.

Matt:                     Something stupid like that, and their genetic material can adapt within a day, their reproduction.

Stephen:             It’s great. We talk about certain genes that are bad for today, but great for when we’re evolving. One of them is the thrifty gene, of course, and we’re all probably familiar with that, which means that, like an Aboriginal, Indigenous person or Inuit Indians or any of those guys, they had more of a thrifty gene, which means they could starve for longer and still survive. In other words, if you give them the same amount of calories as a Caucasian, then they will become obese and heart disease-

Matt:                     I’ve heard a lot about that.

Stephen:             Before industrial-

Matt:                     The Solomon Islands and those big islands-

Stephen:             Yeah, all those.

Matt:                     They got the thrifty gene. And that’s associated with that. Is that insulin-

Stephen:             Yeah, absolutely.

Matt:                     resistance too? Or something like that? It’s linked in with more IGF or something?

Stephen:             Yeah, IGF1. Basically, if you’ve got that gene and you’re starving in the bush from time to time, great. But if you’re in Western society with three meals a day, you are screwed and you have much more chance of diabetes, heart disease, cancers, everything. Because IGF1-

Matt:                     You should ask your mom what your birth weight was, too, because they found a massive link with that particular gene for the lowest birth weight babies become the most obese adults. They said what actually happens is the lower birth weight activates this overcompensatory feeding by the moms and that sort of stuff. The guy throw in lots of breasts, lots of bottle, they measure, “Oh, you’re already below weight.” If you drop off any weight in the early days, we always talk about that 10 percent weight loss and then we’ve got to do something.

Matt:                     What happens is they overfeed, they overdo things that activates the thrifty gene, the small baby grows, and then they’ve activated a pathway where they’re predisposed to obesity. That’s an interesting link too. That comes from prenatal and early life events that you actually activate a gene back then. I have no idea with that one, if you can switch the bloody thing back off, but you become a management issue in those instances where we gotta watch the carbs.

Stephen:             Yeah. You have to de-phosphorylate the kinase enzymes, which is a tricky way of doing it. You have to do-

Matt:                     It sounds tricky, Steve.

Stephen:             Oh, it is! It’s a process where they give them lots of chromium 3 and all these sorts of thioctic acid, lipoic acid. All these sorts of things they’ve done in trials that have actually sort of semi helped it. Basically anything that helps sensitize insulin.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah.

Stephen:             It’s very interesting.

Matt:                     That’s cool, man.

Stephen:             Yeah, it’s pretty cool. You’ve talked about how genes evolved, and if we really did have a bad gene, you’re born with a bad gene, you would just die.

Elizma:                  That’s right. mitochondrial genes, for instance. Mitochondrial genes is a whole nother thing.

Stephen:             They’re genes inside, they’re different to the nucleus genes. They’re genes inside the cells.

Elizma:                  That’s right. And those babies would usually not survive for very long and they would just-

Matt:                     Definitely not reproduce then.

Elizma:                  No. No, no. That’s nature’s way of eliminating things that should not be carried over.

Matt:                     But that’s what, environments change so fast, so quickly, we haven’t had a chance to evolve or adapt to these sort of systems, so what we’re finding is the people that, a couple of generations ago had a genetic polymorphism or a genetic structure that allowed them to benefit, all of a sudden, we hit this era where you’re better off having a nervous system or a genetic profile where you do not react to stress at all, where in the past, there would’ve been the worst possible thing.

Matt:                     Now it’s going to take us a long time to evolve to the people that can sit inside a room with electromagnetic radiations and pollutants and eating crap and all that sort of stuff, with not manifesting a stress response from that.

Stephen:             Because the Homo habilis was the great stressor. That’s what made him or her survive through that particular era. If they didn’t stress to something, they would be killed.

Elizma:                  That’s right. They had to run away from the lion or whatever.

Stephen:             Yeah. 300 thousand years ago, you were killed by lots of stuff. Whether it be disease or a snake or a spider. If you didn’t stress to that, you wouldn’t survive it, and that’s where the Homo habilis species were the great stressors. We still have some of their genetic material in Home erectus and all that sort of stuff. We really are, and Homo sapiens, which is what we are.

Stephen:             We do have some neanderthal genes. Did you know that? I found that out the other day on the radio. Wow! They’re a species that are humans that died out about-

Matt:                     I think I may. I’ve seen a few of the guys. I’ve seen a few of them.

Stephen:             We were talking about-

Matt:                     Neanderthal gene, neanderthal gene. Look at her neanderthal genes!

Stephen:             We talk about some of the footballers and their reactions and some of their genes, but of course, having a lot of neanderthal genes made you a very powerful hunter. They have very short arms, very powerful. That would be beneficial for survival back then.

Matt:                     Go out and forage really good.

Stephen:             Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they were shit at surviving the cold. The ice age … that’s what killed them. The ice age.

Matt:                     Oh, that’ll do it.

Stephen:             Therefore, but if you’re an islander with more neanderthal genes, you would be … you needed the strength so you were a footballer. You had better strength and you could tolerate heat more, what a great advantage!

Matt:                     Yeah, bloody eye!

Stephen:             But what if you were surviving and an ice age came down and engulfed half the world in snow, you die off. That’s what happened to them.

Matt:                     I’m just sitting here, my brain’s just flying now, because I’m just seeing, and I think not only have I worked out a lot of the problems with a lot of my friends and that sort of stuff, because they’re messed up. A lot of this sort of stuff, I’ve worked out a lot things about myself, but I also think I’ve worked out how to fix the Australian Rugby Union team.

Elizma:                  Oh my goodness.

Matt:                     We need to get a little bit of that neanderthal gene back in there. We’ve been focusing on the thrifty gene for too long.

Stephen:             Exactly! Oh, the neanderthal would be a great front rower. Very powerful animals that are humans that are-

Matt:                     Really good at rugby because their knuckles drag on the ground. Easily rake that ball back.

Stephen:             Yeah, I’d take neanderthal genes. They still had the same intelligence. They still had the same amount of brain capacity, about 440 cc.

Matt:                     Yeah, well I still know how to start a fire by myself.

Stephen:             Yeah, exactly.

Matt:                     Without matches.

Stephen:             Here in Queensland now, for those who don’t know, and that’s semi tropical area. It’d be great for the heat. Great neanderthal genes. Have you got any of your favorite genes that you want to talk about that you think are of interest to you?

Elizma:                  Not my personal genes. I’ve never had my genes tested.

Matt:                     No, good. Me neither. Did you know you need to get life insurance because of it? I’m positive. I’m positive it’s a big …

Elizma:                  It is!

Matt:                     It’s a big thing. We’re going to get your data, we’re going to ship it out, sell it out to the insurance guys.

Elizma:                  Especially the overseas companies. That’s pretty much happening.

Stephen:             Absolutely. And if you had your genes testing for, say, the BrCA gene, which is a breast cancer gene-

Matt:                     Is that the Angelina Jolie one?

Stephen:             That’s the Angelina one.

Matt:                     Let’s just quickly say, tell us your thoughts of that.

Stephen:             Yeah.

Matt:                     If she’s positive to this gene, or tested for this gene to be positive, there’s a predisposition.

Elizma:                  Maybe a bit controversial. Again, it’s all about the expression. Just because you have a gene doesn’t mean you’re going to get a disease, which is why using it for insurance purposes or health fund purposes would be worse. It would be stupid. I don’t see the point to it.

Matt:                     Yeah, because like you said, people can manifest the expression of a bad gene without actually having the genetic testing confirming it’s possible.

Elizma:                  Absolutely. There’s still people that have obesity genes and diabetes genes and they’re skinny and they’re healthy as anything because they live a healthy lifestyle. You can’t put those kinds of marks on genes. I very rarely have ever seen anyone’s genetic polymorphisms match their health issues.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:25:45].

Elizma:                  I can understand why some women would do it, because they’re fearful and maybe that’s also fear that gets created by the medical profession, but at the end of the day, it still has to be expressed somehow. Again, stress can make things express or unhealthy diets, anything like that.

Stephen:             Absolutely, and we know a hallmark of say, we’re talking about quickly, cancer, is that if you have a hypomethylation of the suppressor oncogene and a hypermethylation of the ones that … sorry, the hypermethylation of the suppressor genes and a hypomethylation of the oncogenes, that’s a problem. That’s a hallmark of cancer seen in most cancers.

Matt:                     What you’re saying if you lack the nutrients and the ability to do the methylation processes properly, you can be predisposed to cancer because of a buildup of waste and all these other bits and pieces?

Stephen:             Typically-

Matt:                     But if you’ve got too much, if you drive methylation too fast, methylation is also involved in DNA replication and making new cells, which is why a lot of the anticancer drugs and autoimmune drugs block that? Yeah, right.

Elizma:                  With cancer though, it does start off as a hypermethylation. Eventually when the tumor is there, you get the hypomethylation in the normal tissues, but the hypermehtylation in the cancer tissues.

Matt:                     Yeah, right. And it does that by itself then, wouldn’t it? It creates its own-

Elizma:                  Yeah, it drives it.

Matt:                     Drives that genetic process and then recruits those nutrients towards its growth, which depletes those nutrients from its anticancer or anticarcinogenic methylation pathways elsewhere.

Elizma:                  Yup. It takes a lot of material to make its own DNA, RNA and-

Stephen:             It grows its own blood vessels, right? Angiogenesis. Tumors are real scary things. Having a gene, an oncogene like a BrCA gene, then just predisposed you, doesn’t mean you’re going to get it. It’s like saying that we’re predisposed to prostate cancer because we’ve got one. It doesn’t mean we’re going to get one, and we’re now knowing things that can switch on prostate cancer genes, like dairy. It’s a classic one that drives it up.

Stephen:             If your environment is not dairy-based, then you could avoid that particular expression of that oncogene.

Matt:                     If I wanted to get this information that we talked abut today, and find out how it helps me, the first thing I would do is I’d get a good understanding of my symptom picture, meaning I’d go back and analyze myself, and I’d go, when am I tired? It’s not good enough to go into a naturopath like yourself and say, “I suffer from fatigue.”

Matt:                     Because you’re going to go back then, and spend the next hour going, “Okay. Do you wake up tired? Is that the worst time of day for you, or do you pick up quite quickly? Do you then crash after lunch? Is it when you’re actually exercising or could you sleep at any moment?” We need to know how’s your energy production in general, we need to know how you respond to exercise, and then we’re also going to, when your body’s under stress, how do you manifest? Do you get the burn? Do you get pain or are you more of a sweater or more of a panter? Do you feel sick? Do you feel dizzy?

Matt:                     You need to get a good understanding of your symptom picture. For anyone out there that’s listening to this podcast today, part of it is doing an organic test or measuring your organic acids. With that, you need to gather that bit of information and relate it back to your own symptoms so we need to know what type of fatigue I get.

Matt:                     If you suffer from soreness, when are you sore? Are you sore first thing in the morning, but then it frees up? Or are the sort of person that if you do nothing you’re fine, then as soon as you start exercising, you immediately go into a soreness? Then when we talk about soreness, we want to say, is it in the muscly tissue, or is it in the joints?

Matt:                     What I need people to do for this sort of information is you need to go back and have a really good look at your symptom picture and work out those sort of symptoms. Do I sleep? How do I wake up? Am I refreshed? Sleep requires a lot of energy, okay?

Elizma:                  It does. The brain uses more ATP when you sleep, and oxygen when you sleep than when you’re not sleeping.

Matt:                     Yeah. This is the thing. How you sleep is as equally important for our mapping of your energy product pathways as anything. Then, of course, because you’re going to go see a naturopath and of course everything you’ve learned today, of course we’re going to ask about your poo.

Elizma:                  Of course, yes.

Matt:                     What we’re talking about here is a lot of these organic wastes, at this point in time, when we’re measuring these wastes in your urine, do we know which ones are from microbiome and which ones are from your body, or are they the same chemicals a lot of the time?

Elizma:                  This is the thing. Because it gets dumped in the urine, it’s metabolic waste products, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s just from your gut. I guess that’s why I like the test because sometimes a lot of these things become systemic. The beauty is, also, that you’re measuring metabolites of organisms. You’re not actually measuring organisms. It’s like we already said with the stool test, organisms can die off or they can flourish in transport.

Elizma:                  You can have things like Candida grow more while it’s being transported to the lab. Those test results can sometimes be very skewed, whereas, when we’re measuring on an organic acid test, we’re not measuring organisms. It doesn’t matter if they die off or whatever. It doesn’t matter where they are in the body. They are producing these metabolites, and that gets transported to the kidneys and dumped into the urine.

Elizma:                  You’re getting a really good idea of systemic organisms as well.

Matt:                     I’m not sure if the language is right, would that be like an example of the expression of your microbiome? We talked about the expression of your genes. One thing to measure to see, if you want the microbiome, but you could use the organic acids to see how they are manifesting or how they’re behaving, which would be the expression of the microbiome.

Elizma:                  Yes, absolutely. When we’re taking about the mitochondria, Clostridia, essentially, Clostridia and Candida hijack the way the TCA cycle works, the Krebs cycle.

Stephen:             Citric acid cycle?

Elizma:                  Yes. Essentially, Clostridia almost cuts that cycle in half, because it blocks certain of the pathways within that cycle, and so it cuts it in half. You look at Candida, and Candida [inaudible 00:32:02], I think it’s the methyl citric acid cycle. I’m not quite sure, but it’s like they have their own energy pathways which they then superimpose onto ours, and hijack our energy pathways for their own benefit.

Elizma:                  You can see those ratios and those patterns on an organic acid test. You can see how is Candida, for instance, or what’s going on in my gut, affecting my cellular energy production, which will then affect how my brain is working and how my liver is detoxing. When we’re talking about cellular energy, when we talk about energy and fatigue, we think about the adrenals.

Elizma:                  No, no, no. When we’re talking about cellular energy, every single organ in your body needs energy to function. The pancreas for insulin production, your kidneys for electrolyte regulation, your liver for detoxification, so a lot of people with detox problems, we could even go as far as saying, “Well, what’s the cellular energy of those liver cells?”

Matt:                     In the clinic, everyone comes in, I feel like I’m falling apart. They list off these symptoms that cover every part of the body. That’s where you’re going, “Oh no!” The good news for you is it’s one defect everywhere.

Elizma:                  That’s right. It’s the same.

Matt:                     You’re depending on what the job of that cell is. For example, your brain doesn’t have pain receptors. It doesn’t hurt and burn like a muscle would with lactic acid. It manifests with the release of chemicals, which is thinking. Anxiety and worry in the brain is pretty much a brain cramp manifested as a sore spastic muscle in another part of the body, but in the lungs, that same process creates a panting.

Matt:                     Someone would go, “Oh my brain goes, my lungs pant, my muscles go tired. I burn in the gym. I’m falling apart.”

Matt:                     You go, “No, that’s actually one thing.” That’s the beauty of it. What you’ll find in that instance is, with this Krebs Cycle, just so people understand, with the citric acid cycle or the Krebs Cycle, people see, they take supplements in their different forms. They offer ketoglutarate forms or the fumarate forms, and that sort of stuff. All of these little words and that sort of stuff, they are all, they’re little steps of your Krebs Cycle.

Matt:                     When we look at your cellular energy production pathway, when we talk about this Krebs Cycle or the citric acid cycle, that’s got a whole series of little events that all involve different little amino acids and bits and pieces that get driven into this energy production pathway. Each one of those little steps is catalyzed, or sorry, stimulated or driven with a B vitamin or a water soluble vitamin or something, so we’ve got vitamins, we have minerals, we have amino acids, all going into a step that’s a cycle that produces energy at the end, and can also contribute to different metabolic waste.

Matt:                     I got so excited about the organic acid test on the very simple concept that each one of those steps of your energy production pathway can be measured, and then what we can do is create that. It’s just a big circle. If we put that back into the circle and say, high, high, nothing, nothing, nothing, high, high, high, we can actually go through your energy production pathways, look at these metabolic wastes and go, wow, there is a whole section of energy production you are not doing.

Elizma:                  Yes.

Matt:                     Now, we can investigate into that. It’s not just about buffering the buildup of the waste. It’s working out where we’ve got excess of something somewhere. We have a deficiency somewhere else, and we can go back and work it out. Then we can go back on, do you have a mitochondrial fatigue problem, or do you have a waste product coming from your guts, or do we have a nutrient deficiency, or do we have a, just stuck in a stress mode?

Matt:                     We can then go back and use all this data in combination with your symptom picture to determine what your particular strengths and weaknesses may be, whether we need to target the microbiome, whether we need to target it to a particular nutrient deficiency, amino acid, or whatever. Very rarely in my experience have I seen that these people are just genuinely protein deficient. In those, I typically ignore the amino acid section, because it doesn’t really show me a great deal, I don’t think.

Elizma:                  Do you mean the last bits?

Matt:                     Yeah.

Stephen:             We did a podcast on the tryptophan steal. You say you know about that, so, we talked about how that can drive anxiety and that sort of stuff. That’s one amino acid that we focus a lot on.

Elizma:                  Yeah, absolutely.

Stephen:             There’s a few others there. Do you want to highlight some of your favorites? What you like?

Elizma:                  Yeah, you mean in the amino acid space?

Stephen:             Yeah, yeah.

Elizma:                  One of the ones that I think is very underrated and which, just because I see so many of them is, I think it’s the 2-hydroxy caproic acid, if I remember correctly, or it could’ve been 3 methyl 2 oxybutyric acid. They are very much … when they come up abnormal, which is not very often, but I’ve seen it quite a few times, that’s usually an indication of vitamin B1 deficiency, which is more in the TPP form, which is your thiamine pyrophosphate. It’s like an active form of B1, or a coenzyme-added B1, if you want, and when that one becomes depleted, you’ll start to dump B5 in the urine.

Elizma:                  B5 is needed for acetyl-CoA production, adrenal hormones, sex hormones, blah, blah, blah, and also it becomes B1 gets depleted very commonly with Candida because Candida produces acetaldehydes, so even people with a lot of sensitivities to perfumes and chemical, paint fumes and stuff like that, it means that acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme is not working as well, most likely because it doesn’t have the co factors which is B1 to function well.

Elizma:                  A lot of people with a lot of chemical sensitivities and Candida overgrowth have this B1 deficiency.

Stephen:             Just on that too, the classic one medically for those who may not know this, if you drink a lot of alcohol, you get a condition of thiamine deficiency. This is called Korsakoff’s Syndrome, where simply your brain doesn’t work. This is probably a list, they’re probably not at that level, but it’s a very, very startling affect to this particular thing. Thiamine is hugely important for the brain. They just get brain fogged and they go dunno. It’s just people lose track of what they’re up to, they forget what they said a few minutes ago, and that’s classic Korsakoff. If you have an interview with Korsakoff patients, they make up stories. They’re not lying, but they’re making up stories based on what they see right then, because they believe that is a memory.

Stephen:             That’s how important thiamine is for the brain.

Matt:                     Things like dementia and all that sort of stuff would be linked in with that as well?

Elizma:                  Yup. Absolutely. You’ve got all those folks on B12 and folate and B6, and we forget about some of the other ones and how important they are. I actually see a lot of deficiencies in that.

Matt:                     I remember back in the ’90s, and that sort of stuff, a lot of it was about the sympathetic nervous system dominance, but supporting the parasympathetic nervous system, supporting acetylcholine production, a lot of it was B1 and B5, big mega doses of B1 and B5. It seems to have gone a little bit off the radar.

Elizma:                  Yeah, you use the TPP form. You don’t need as much. If you’re using plain thiamine or B1 that you just get off the shelf, you’re going to often need, and I’m not telling people to take these doses. Obviously you’d have to always work with your practitioner.

Matt:                     Oh, well done.

Elizma:                  Yeah, but often we can use up to 500 milligrams. When you’re working with TPP, the coenzyme added B1, it’s 10 milligrams. You need only a tiny amount of that.

Matt:                     That’s interesting, isn’t it?

Stephen:             It is. It’s the activated form. You know, the injections that they give us in the hospital for some of these would be about gram of thiamine, megadoses. Just to overcome-

Matt:                     I remember, yeah. The old acetylcholines. We used to talk about a symptom picture of poor short-term memory, concentration span, poor close vision, dry mouth, hot burning feet syndrome, poor digestion, poor sleep, and always manifest with those. It’s definitely poor short-term memory, focus, concentration span and ability to remember what you just read. But other weird shit, the dry mouth and the burning feet, and we used to do the 250 milligrams of B1, 500 milligrams of B5.

Stephen:             Huge B5.

Matt:                     That’s how we’d do it to fix it, and we’d usually stack it with an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor, like a ginkgo or something, to preserve that acetylcholine and make a quick flip, because we knew we could never drop the sympathetic nervous system, because everyone was so stressed.

Matt:                     We used to try to build up the B1s and B5 and build up all this acetylcholine, but it’s so much more complicated when you go back and individually work out why the hell that person’s got a problem. It’s very rarely just nutrients.

Stephen:             Exactly. And even medically today, the number one treatment for Alzheimer’s is acetylcholine and esterase inhibitor drugs. That’s how far they’ve got. They know acetylcholine levels are low, that’s all for making memories, and this is medically where they’re at, so to get back to this B1 and the TPP level with B1 and these sorts of things is terrific, and you can pick it up early on these too. I love it!

Elizma:                  Yeah, absolutely! And the beauty is that it changes very quickly as well. I’ve seen some incredibly high markers in these tests, but if you treat it correctly, within a four month period, you’d retest and they’re all normal. It doesn’t take years of detoxification or whatever. Like I said, you don’t treat every single marker also, because I’ve seen a lot, especially the nutrient markers, a lot of time the nutrient markers come back wacky.

Matt:                     The vitamin C?

Elizma:                  Well, vitamin C, but also all the B vitamins and things like that. I’ve often treated people without giving them a single nutrient. I’ve identified what’s the core issue, the root cause, you treat that, and the nutrients come back on its own. The nutrients normalize on its own without taking a multivitamin or anything like that. If you treat the right things, you give the body a chance to heal and to regulate itself and absorb nutrients and all those things.

Stephen:             I want to pick your brains a little bit, ask you a question without notice. I want to know what your opinion is on folic acid and folic acid fortification foods and the overabundance of folic acid in the lifestyles. It’s prescribed again medically, compared to the natural folates.

Elizma:                  Your natural folates that you get from your green leafy vegetables and eggs and stuff is obviously a much, much healthier form. I’ve never been a fan of fortification. For me, that’s mass medication. You can’t control how much people eat, so they’ll say, “If you eat two slices of bread a day, you’ll get your daily requirements of folic acid.” Well, there are people who eat a whole loaf of bread a day. You can’t control people’s intake, so it’s mass medication.

Elizma:                  Folic acid in itself, it uses up a lot of the DHFR enzyme, I think, if I remember correctly. It just means-

Stephen:             Dihydride folate reductase-

Elizma:                  Yeah, that’s the one. It has to … I think it uses about twice as much of that enzyme to function, which just means it’s slower to go through the methylation cycle. I’m not a big fan of the artificial folic acid, but unfortunately, that’s what they put in most multivitamins, unless you buy an activated form, but at the end of the day, you want to get it from your food. You get methylfolate from your food. From your vegetables and from your eggs.

Elizma:                  Never been a fan of synthetic vitamins or fortification, in general.

Matt:                     That was one of the things, I was going to say in it in the intro and I forgot. One of the things when I first hear Elizma speak, I just about called your Elizma again. The first time I saw Elizma speak, I was stopping myself from giving her a standing ovation over one line. She said to a doctor in the crowd that were asking these questions, she just actually said, “Please don’t forget, you need to fortify your prescriptions with food.”

Matt:                     You just talked about that. We’ve gone through this phase where we used to eat food for nutrients and we all knew that food had nutrients which is why we ate them, even the stuff that tasted bad, we’d eat it because we knew it was good for us. Into a phase where we’re convinced that nature is idiots, we’re smarter, we’re going to get through these high end prescriptions. I’m talking mega dosing, some of these Pfeiffer protocols. They’re insane.

Matt:                     What happens is that the medical world got involved in the supplementation and that more is better, smacking these things through, and Elizma’s there reminding the doctors to fortify their prescriptions with food as opposed to fortifying food with nutrients. You had to remind them that fortify your nutrient prescriptions with good again to get them back online.

Elizma:                  That’s right.

Matt:                     That was so cool.

Stephen:             It’s funny, because you’re right. It’s terrible that they’re mass medicating. I’ll use that word. Controversy, I’m against fluoride in water because-

Elizma:                  It’s the same thing.

Stephen:             It’s the same. Well, I just drank that much fluoride just then, and someone might now, and someone who works in a building site might drink six liters of fluoride a say. Fluoride is potentially toxic. This is scary! You think it’s good for your teeth. Let’s assume it is, most people swallow the water.

Elizma:                  I think the studies I saw on fluoride was that if you apply it topically, it has a beneficial effect, but swallowing has a detrimental effect. It’s like you said, everyone swallows their toothpaste.

Stephen:             There’s no biochemical pathway for fluoride.

Matt:                     We even swallow our water.

Stephen:             No!

Matt:                     It’s true.

Elizma:                  You don’t spit it out?

Stephen:             I just rinse it around and spit it across the room.

Matt:                     Yeah, in a bucket.

Stephen:             Yeah, you just spit it back in the morning.

Matt:                     I think that’s good to give you fluoride on your teeth that way. What was it, Salon Tea, or one of those was the worst too.

Elizma:                  Yeah, I heard that.

Matt:                     That was with the fluoride, the tea that the little old ladies that don’t need … that’ve got no bloody teeth. I’m only talking about the ones with no teeth, so don’t be offended if you’re one with teeth. They got their little tea pots with their thing, they’re sipping on all day, they’re using their tap water because they’re not buying the big bucks for the flash water. And they’re loading up with it, and this is when they get the skeletal fluorosis and that sort of stuff.

Stephen:             Screws with the pineal gland.

Elizma:                  I think osteosarcomas are also linked to fluoride.

Stephen:             Which is a type of bone cancer.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Matt:                     Yeah, fun, huh?

Stephen:             Yeah it’s good. Also, pituitary sleep problems and all that sort of stuff. I’m glad you said that, because we’re not fans of folic acid here. We’re fans of natural folates, and I would even tell you about that, I’m so glad you said that, because.

Matt:                     Lucky.

Stephen:             Lucky. We would’ve done. [crosstalk 00:46:46] No, no! [crosstalk 00:46:49] Megafols, because you’ve got to remember, Megafols are standard prescription for anyone wanting to fall pregnant.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Stephen:             It’s really quite scary, because they give 5 milligrams.

Matt:                     Tongue tie and-

Elizma:                  Yeah, it’s huge amounts of folic acid.

Matt:                     I figure if you’re one in 10 that struggle to convert it, we just give you more.

Elizma:                  Yeah. What it does, I think it binds to the FOLR3 receptors.

Stephen:             Yup. It does.

Matt:                     It still has an effect, and they’ve linked that affect of the unmetabolized folic acid through to tongue tie, childhood leukemia, behavior disorders, speech apraxias, all that sort of stuff. I think we’ve covered a heap of stuff. We’re going to get you back, and we’re going to do this all the time now, because I’ve got a big plan.

Matt:                     We’re going to do the calcium, we’ve got to talk about calcium influx more.

Elizma:                  Definitely. Calcium dysregulation.

Matt:                     We’ve got to talk about genetic expression versus genetic profiling to screen us all. We’re just going to do so much. I can’t wait. I’m really excited. While we’ve got you here, I want to do some FAQs. Because I normally have to make up this shit, and I’ve got no idea what I’m doing. Now we’ve got a really naturopath here.

Stephen:             Nice.

Matt:                     She can help us.

Stephen:             Now we’ve got an FAQ to go through. This is awesome. This is two pages.

Stephen:             It says, my mum has recently discovered your website and podcasts. Even though we haven’t tried your product yet, she is convinced that you have more knowledge about ‘natural healing’ than she has encountered before. She’d be right too, wouldn’t she?

Stephen:             She has listened to countless podcasts and trolled countless websites to find information that may help me. I figure it’s worth a go to write to you. My question for you guys is, why, at dusk every night, do my symptoms become worse and how can this be rectified?

Stephen:             Prior to my illness, I was a very healthy, vital 24-year old who had successfully completed an aptitude test for entry into the Australian Defense Force. Currently, I’ve been unable to work for two and a half years. I will try to be succinct about my unwellness history, hence the dot points. I have copies of my test results, but I think there are too many for analysis for this forum.

Stephen:             In May 2015, I was sick for about a week, flu and fever with a course of doxycycline, which is an antibiotic not usually give to the flu. It’s an antibacterial, not an antiviral. Three weeks later, symptoms appeared suddenly over the course of a few days. Significant decline in short term memory, anxiety, decreased thinking ability, spacey, like looking through a glass window a passenger in my life, not really there.

Stephen:             Poor concentration, eyes inability to focus outside or in a complex visual environment. Mood swings, daily crashes and my brain would get to the stage where I was debilitated. Couldn’t function at work. The timing of those daily crashes gradually changed from 2 p.m. to the current time of dusk in the evening.

Stephen:             Mid June 2015, GP diagnosed as depression. I knew this was the case. CT scan all okay. Integrative doctors, conformation of Pyrrole disorder and protocol zinc and B6 with no effects. Again, integrative doctor in November, NTHFR homozygous for the 1298C. Under methylation detected a compound and supplementation scrip for five months with no effect.

Stephen:             Saw a functional neurologist, ordered test, urine [inaudible 00:50:11] metabolite profile, CSAP times three. Environment pollutants panel, and I didn’t know the results of that.

Stephen:             Anyway, February, 2016. Saw a naturopath. Analysis of HTMA, UMP, EPP, and CSAP times three. Recommended detox supplements.

Elizma:                  The HTMA is a hair mineral analysis. I’m not sure of UMP and EPP.

Stephen:             No, I don’t know what UMP and EPP is either. Here you go, anyway, recommended supplements. June 2016, [inaudible 00:50:42] ARM and lab protocols positive for Epstein Barr Virus, Chlamydial pneumonia, cytomegalovirus, HHV6, mycoplasmal pneumonia residing in my brain, according to this doctor.

Stephen:             Ordered many blood tests including cortisol, normal, brain, spec scan, high power perfusion, low blood flow there; antibiotics, eight months of doxycycline and erythromycin. IV phosphorylcholine, ozone therapy, IV vitamin C. Wow. Macron was negative, but E. coli found. Ciprofloxacin used as well as a BEG spray for two weeks in February, 2017.

Stephen:             Neurologist: MRI, brain, cavernomas detected. [inaudible 00:51:32] team meeting called at Martin Neuroscience. No action required. Integrative doctor CIRS diagnosed from the blood test. VEGF, EIB-

Matt:                     WHat’s CIRS?

Elizma:                  That’s chronic inflammatory response syndrome, so it’s often found with Lyme and mold issues.

Stephen:             Yes.

Elizma:                  That’s their markers they usually test for. VEGF, EIB.

Matt:                     Okay.

Stephen:             I had another MRI. Integrative doctor [inaudible 00:51:58] authority for Australia, conformation of CIRS, which is C-I-R-S, and from analysis of neuro MRI analysis, probably due to mold exposure, and then had a myriad of supplementations there including things like melatonin injections, HEG injections, supplements, infrared saunas, VIP nasal spray.

Matt:                     Is that cocaine?

Stephen:             Yeah. VIP nasal spray. Four-day cortisol saliva test was normal again. In August 2018, naturopath, analysis at uBiome doctors, recommended induction of PHGG, FOS and GOS and lactulose in prescribed order. Chiropractor specialized in neurology suggested discontinuation due to lack of success.

Stephen:             December 2018. Through all of this I’ve made some improvement, but I could not isolate what supplements/medications or which protocol has been effective or aided improvement. All practitioners have stated that they have nothing left to offer. Although my symptoms have reduced in severity, I still suffer from spaciousness, worse on the outside in open environments. The eyes aren’t able to focus clearly outside or in a complex visual environment. Reduced memory and speed of thinking, decreased ability to interact socially, especially maintaining eye contact. Symptoms worse after exercise.

Stephen:             Okay. This is an interesting one. Underlined and bolded in capitals, every day, every dusk, six until seven p.m., all the symptoms listed above worsen. I have no known allergies. I have taken a plethora of supplements over the past few years, but the ones I am currently taking are NAC, which is N-Acetyl Cysteine cysteine or Carnitine, probably cysteine, Ubiquinol CoQ10, tumeric, rutin, trans-resveratrol, fish oil, zinc picolinate, P5P which is pyridoxal 5 phosphate, magnesium digluconate, astaxanthin, B12 spray, lion’s mane, and raw vitamin C. The only current medication is the VIP spray. Oh, there it is, vasointestinal peptide.

Elizma:                  Yeah.

Stephen:             Final step in Shoemaker protocol for CIRS, which I’ve been taking for six months. I eat mostly organic fruits and vegetables, grass-fed meats, eggs, circle legumes, small amount of grains, nuts and seeds. I eat at least 40 different plant foods a week. I was 24 when it all started, now I’m 28. If you could shed any light, purpose, or theories, recommend any practitioners or suggest any protocols, I will be extremely grateful and very willing to try them out. Thanks in advance for your time, Reese.

Stephen:             Wow. Cool. Wow.

Matt:                     Initially, the initial question was, why do my symptoms worsen in the evening? The symptoms that he’s talking about worsening in the evening is spaciness, the eyes aren’t able to focus clearly, reduced memory and speed of thinking, decreased ability to interact socially and symptoms worsen after exercise.

Matt:                     A lot of those, if you were to really dumb it right down, they’re symptoms of the sympathetic nervous system acting in survival mode. What typically happening around that time of day is when your cortisol eventually is starting to drop off, because what would happen through the day, the cortisol would be high. Cortisol is supposed to be anti stress, so cortisol is supposed to be going back to tell the sympathetic nervous system, “Back off.” Whatever this stress is. That’s why you worsen, possibly, is because that cortisol running out of puff after being high all day in response to your survival.

Matt:                     Why you’re stuck in survival mode is the challenge. What the hell is happening in your system that’s driving and that’s when I’m going to throw it over to you, because I can show you how to manage some of those symptoms by regulating those imbalances, but I’m dying to know what you’ve found out.

Matt:                     A lot of these testing, I was never much of a tester. I used to do a lot of symptom pictures and then refer on people for testing. A lot of these testing, to me, are very new. You’re an expert. The other thing too, just quickly, there’s something weird going on with the red blood cells that can be coming from the cytomegaloviruses and that sort of stuff as well, because that [inaudible 00:56:09], that MO-factor stuff they’re measuring means that they’re breaking down too many red blood cells and excreting too much.

Elizma:                  Yeah. It was borderline, and I sometimes think that, again, I don’t want to ruffle any feathers, but I think in Australia, practitioners overemphasize the whole pyroluria thing. I know that a lot of my colleagues overseas are like, “What is it with you Australians and pyroluria?” All pyroluria is, is a secondary thing from something else that’s going on in the body. This is the typical kind of people I see in my practice, and I doubt that Reese is absorbing any of the nutrients that he’s taking, because he’s taking a lot of nutrients, which I commonly see with people like him. In my experience, very little of this actually gets absorbed for various reasons.

Elizma:                  There’s a few things here. Whatever happened during this whole journey, his cells would’ve gone, or his mitochondria would’ve gone into cell danger response. That’s what happens with these infections. If all of this has been dealt with, I don’t know if the subsequent testing has come back that the MARCoNS is gone and the mold is gone and all of that stuff is gone.

Elizma:                  If it is gone and Reese is still feeling this way, then there could be reasons such as that the cells are still stuck in the cell danger response. They still perceive there’s a danger when there isn’t and that’s how the body is responding. That can sometimes then come with the whole calcium dysregulation thing that we will be talking about, and when that happens, it’s like none of the communication between the cells is working the way it should, because this is what this looks like. Typically the problem here is that the communication breaks down between the cells. Your hormones and neurotransmitters, whatever.

Elizma:                  If cellular communication doesn’t work, then the body doesn’t talk to each other, the organs don’t talk to each other, and you just don’t feel good at all. That time of the day, definitely with the cortisol, but also it could be that’s your circadian rhythms being dysregulated, so that will influence insulin release and dopamine release and all of those other things, which can then influence why these symptoms are worse during these times.

Elizma:                  I’m quite impressed, Reese has done a lot of stuff. Definitely I can see he’s tried everything or a lot of things, but I would be looking at much deeper cellular levels at all of these things, because what I’ve learned in terms of the organisms, because I can see with ARM and labs, there was a lot of very nasty organisms that came up. We have to ask ourselves the question, why did these organisms take hold in the first place?

Elizma:                  Because, if you just focus on the organisms, which is what a lot of people do, and a lot of practitioners do, you end up playing Whack a Mole. It’s getting rid of this one, another one pops up, because you’re not actually fixing the overall environment that these organisms are thriving in. That comes down to pH and all that kind of stuff.

Elizma:                  The point being is that sometimes the answers are quite simple, but we miss it because we think too complex about things. While these treatments work really well, I have also seen where they fail to work because there are some fundamental things that are being missed in treatment, in treatment plan.

Elizma:                  I think there’s some fundamental things that’s being missed here, which is probably why Reese is still feeling that way.

Matt:                     This is the benefit of the OAT. You get a snapshot of the body. The problem is, when you’re doing a specific test, say you do a stool analysis, or you do a urine analysis without relating that data back to each other, and a symptom picture, or if you do a stool analysis here and a hair analysis there, the OAT because it does, the gut, the mitochondria, the brain, everything at once, all at once you’d see strengths and weaknesses, not just looking for defects.

Elizma:                  Absolutely. And also it depends on one of the biggest thing in how you interpret test results is [crosstalk 01:00:16] same to say, be careful what you test for, because you may just have to interpret it. Unfortunately, I’ve seen so many test results being misinterpreted by practitioners as well, because they’re not looking at the big picture.

Elizma:                  I’ll take a hair mineral analysis for instance, so many times hair mineral analysis doesn’t show up anything. For me, that’s an alarm bell. The hair mineral analysis should show something, because hair is an excretory organ. A lot of people say, “Oh, but that’s good. You don’t have anything showing up.” I say, “Oh, that’s bad. You should have stuff showing up.” It all depends on how you interpret things.

Stephen:             I think you’re right, because one of the misleading things of the OAT test, I found is, it says, “You’ve got low vitamin C. Take a gram of it a day.” No.

Elizma:                  That’s not what you’re supposed to do.

Stephen:             Yeah.

Matt:                     I’m just glad you said OAT test. It’s not just me. You need to go to the ATM machine and get me some cash.

Stephen:             Oh my stars. I say it all the time anyway, incorrectly.

Matt:                     The way we would treat it is we would probably try to work with his system and just simplify things a lot, wouldn’t you?

Elizma:                  I would. First of all, I would probably reduce a lot of the supplements. I’d focus on ways to get nutrients into the cells in a different way than what’s being done here. Obviously I haven’t seen the test results. Just as an overview, I would definitely also check things. I’m pleased that he’s done the IV phospholipids. I’m really glad that that was done, but you could even … I don’t know if it’s available in Australia, unfortunately, but I would be even looking at IV NAD. [crosstalk 01:02:07] and stuff like that.

Stephen:             Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. Just to relate it to looking up. IV NAD, which is a form of B3.

Elizma:                  Yup. I have a feeling that it could be much simpler. Not everything you need to do IV and stuff like that, but I can see-

Matt:                     It all started with an infection and antibiotics.

Elizma:                  That’s right. Whatever, whether it was the viruses or the antibiotics, you can break that down to, especially with absorption issues is, when you look at the cell membranes. The cell membranes need the phospholipids for its structure and for transporters to work well. You also need the electrical charge around those membranes for gates to open and close and all of that. That all comes down to mitochondrial function. What we often see with infections is the oxidative stress that a lot of these infections cause can break down that cellular membrane.

Elizma:                  That’s when you stop absorbing nutrients. Then you end up in this space where your body is nutritionally deficient, doesn’t matter how many supplements you take. Sometimes you have to go back and you have to fix the cell membranes, sometimes it’s a matter of getting the calcium dysregulation working again. Obviously if there is infections, you have to get rid of the infections, but that shouldn’t just be the only focus, because you have to ask yourself the question, why was Reese so susceptible to this in the first place?

Matt:                     For me, to treat it, I’m probably a bit biased now, so I need to let you know, I’m thinking the four pillars. With the [inaudible 01:03:42] signs, products, range, we have these things called the four pillars, and we talk about building a base foundation, a stable state with which to work from, so we realize that for a stable state, we need certain nutrients.

Matt:                     We have a multi food, which is just low dose, big variety of the vitamins and nutrients that are found in foods. Nothing in really high doses, everything’s just a big … with their co factors, and we’ve done the same thing with the oils. The [inaudible 01:04:09] oil is a big variation of oils, cell membrane integrities as well as these little co factors and everything, we can cover the basis without giving megadoses of anything that would create competition and interactions.

Matt:                     The other two pillars, the gut right that works on the diversity of the microbiome, so it just helps to prevent overgrowth of anything. If there’s any mild overdose of Candida, Clostridiums and Klebsiellas that are contributing to these pathways at the same time as making sure we don’t have our deficiencies of anything in particular. It’s just nice, generally, to help with the microbiome and try to get its shit together literally.

Matt:                     The resilience is an interesting one, because it goes a bit beyond that microbiome and into the mucosal immunity and into the way the liver and the antigen presenting cells are directing, orchestrating the immune pathways, and the cool thing about resilience is that if there is migrating Candidas or if there is a biofilm protecting some little colony, it’s got the ability to try to disturb a lot of that.

Matt:                     I think, too, because of a little bit of habit and a little bit of bias, I don’t know what I don’t know, but I think if we go back to the basics and make sure you’re capable of having balance and starting with the four pillars, what you’ll find, a lot of noise disappears. I’d say 80 percent of the rubbish disappears, we’re left with something.

Matt:                     On top of those four pillars, was there anything in specific that we should do for Reese, because I’m going to send those out for him anyway, to see. Is there anything in particular? Because otherwise, normally what I find, we give him the four pillars, we give him a chance to come back and then let us know what’s still left.

Elizma:                  That’s what I sometimes like to do. I start with the basics like the four pillars. I’m not saying that Reese should get this test done, but usually I’ll start off with those basics. I’ll say, think about maybe getting something like the organic acid test done. By the time I get the test results back, we’ve already done at least a month or so of those foundational things. Then we can pinpoint it a little bit more and get it a bit more specific.

Elizma:                  It’s always a good place to start. You have to start with the foundational stuff like the four pillar things. Then it’s right. It gets rid of a lot of the distortion, the cobwebs, whatever you want to call it, and then you get a more clear picture of what-

Matt:                     The problem is.

Elizma:                  A lot of the symptoms, they said in the beginning the anxiety, the inability to think, poor concentration, lots of things, very much, it’s very possible that this could be as a result of Clostridia after a course of doxycycline. Of course it’s very similar to those dopamine or those four [inaudible 01:06:51] kind of reactions to get from Clostridia. It could be something like that.

Matt:                     That CSA that they mentioned. The only reason why I saw the CSA thing in comprehensive stool analysis, parasites [crosstalk 01:07:03]-

Elizma:                  Yeah, it misses a lot of things.

Matt:                     The might have missed it, not got the little colony of cobwebby looking goop.

Elizma:                  I’ve seen that a lot, where people have done both inorganic acid test and a CSA and it doesn’t get picked up on the CSA, but it gets picked up on the organic acid test.

Matt:                     Yeah. Let’s start with the four pillars and then get a follow up.

Elizma:                  Absolutely.

Matt:                     Get a feedback. I’d do that for a good month and then let us know what symptoms have changed. I mentioned before that afternoon could be getting worse because of that cortisols and that [inaudible 01:07:33], but it doesn’t have to be low cortisol on a blood test or saliva test. It could be cortisol resistance because your body is sick of seeing the bloody thing.

Elizma:                  That’s right. Because they still have to bind to the receptors.

Matt:                     You gotta interpret those things. Even if you’re manifesting the signs of a low cortisol activity, you could still have relatively high cortisol on a test. We just need that documented on the same day and the same piece of paper so we can piece it all together.

Elizma:                  That’s right. That’s right.

Matt:                     Four pillars.

Stephen:             Awesome, yeah.

Matt:                     Send it out, Steve.

Stephen:             Four pillars, I’ve already written it down here.

Matt:                     Get your people to speak to my people.

Stephen:             I’ll speak to you people and we will get them out to you, Reese. Thanks for writing us, and thanks for taking the time too, Reese. Thanks for everything today. This has been-

Matt:                     This was good fun.

Stephen:             This has been fantastic. Thanks for that.

Elizma:                  Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

Stephen:             Oh, you’ve just been a joy.

Elizma:                  Restimulation, that’s for sure.

Matt:                     Look at these two, a little bit of chemistry.

Stephen:             Oh yeah!

Matt:                     Biochemistry.

Stephen:             Take the marriage ring off. No, I can’t take that off.

Matt:                     A 15 percent increase of heart disease by wearing that ring.

Stephen:             Exactly.

Elizma:                  Really?

Stephen:             Yeah.

Matt:                     That was an interesting study.

Stephen:             Yeah. Real interesting. I just go married too, and I found that study out.

Elizma:                  Well, congratulations!

Stephen:             It’s been a year now, but I love you Becky, because she watches.

Matt:                     That was a really awkward of me to say there. I just mentioned the chemistry over the biochemistry and he’s panicked.

Stephen:             Oh, panicked. Oh goodness me. It’s about time to wrap this up, isn’t it? Quick! Yeah, it’s been great. It’s been fun today. Love the biochemistry.

Matt:                     Thanks for having us. Now I said thanks for … thanks for coming in.

Stephen:             Thanks guys. See ya.

Speaker 3:           Thanks for listening and remember, question everything. Well, except what we say.