Jeff:                       Welcome to the ATP project, interview with Luke Leaman on hyper nutrition part two. In today’s podcast, Matt, Steve and I continue our discussion with Muscle Nerd’s Founder, master trainer, Luke Leaman. We continue to discuss why more is not always better. This is the final episode in the two part series, as I said last week, both podcasts are more conversational in style and differ a lot from our normal podcast format. As always this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any condition and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information of this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP project is about to start.

Announcer:        (Music) Welcome to the ATP project, delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax and open your mind as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.

Matt:                     So, when would you give branch tri-amino acids for someone that wants to grow? How much would, should they take?

luke:                      So I …

Matt:                     And when?

luke:                      I would, probably tend to give them right after the workout.

Matt:                     After the workout?

luke:                      Yeah[crosstalk 00:01:13]

Matt:                     And that’s for [crosstalk 00:01:12] hyper [crosstalk 00:01:14] as well?

luke:                      Yeah stimulate them too a little bit, you know, that type of thing. Maybe you could take it before, like Steve was saying, you’re gonna block a little bit of the tryptophan so you’re gonna have a little bit more energy during the workout but …

Matt:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative). But you’ll burn those, a lot of those branch chains as part of that workout?

luke:                      A lot of those, it’s, it’s, it’s, at that point it’s just gonna be, it’s gonna, just gonna jump into the [crosstalk 00:01:29].

Matt:                     So between meals, is there ever a time really for branch chain, I mean souping on it.

luke:                      Uh, no.

Matt:                     No?

luke:                      Not, nah, I don’t think so.

Matt:                     Now the big thing I’ve noticed as well, ’cause everyone’s starting to say brach chains, you know, that everyone’s gotten excited about brain chains and over plugged them and then people weren’t getting the results they expected. So now everyone’s saying that’s because you didn’t have the essentials. So now what big tra-, uh, pattern I’m seeing is what everyone was doing with the flavored branch chain amino acid between meals, they’re not doing with essential aminos. Is that better? Or are we gonna see the same sort of stuff?

luke:                      It’s, it’s still the same sort of stuff. If you take a lot of amino acids and it’s not in the, uh, combined in the food group as a whole complete protein you’re gonna have issues.

Matt:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative).

luke:                      And uh, when I was looking into the research on the essential amino acids, you only need about six to eight grams to get the anabolic effect, and I, I remember seeing that this was, I don’t know, maybe five years ago I decided well, I’m gonna take six to eight grams four, five times a day, I’m gonna see what it’ll do, and after about a, a, a seven to ten days I was, walked into the gym and I’m, I said, “Man. I feel heavy and I can’t breath. I don’t know what’s going on.” I went and got on the scales. I’d put on 11 or 12 pounds. It’s like holy shit, but it was all water and bloat, and I was super inflamed, so I got off of it and lost it, but it, it, it, I pushed it past this point where for a couple of weeks I couldn’t look at a carb without blowing up and passing out almost.

Matt:                     Yeah. Right.

luke:                      You know. So, you know …

Matt:                     And that’s insulin resistance again …

luke:                      Yeah.

Matt:                     ‘Cause a lot of those essential amino acids have, you know, can be converted through sugars and that’ll, that’ll help your body to … Again, they get burned as a source of fuel.

luke:                      Yeah.

Steve:                   Hm. It’s called gluco neogenesis if you wanted to look up the term anybody.

Matt:                     Mm-hmm (affirmative).

luke:                      [inaudible 00:03:01] neo genesis.

Steve:                   Yeah.

luke:                      Actually. Thank you very much.

Jeff:                       Um. But yeah, in terms of obviously more, and this is the whole thing about [inaudible 00:03:09], we have touched on it on quite a few different podcasts, any other specific times where you’ve seen people taking more because they’re [inaudible 00:03:15], a little bit’s good, more’s a lot better.

Matt:                     Hm.

Jeff:                       Let’s get into it. We’ve done themselves some damage or some harm.

luke:                      Well I, I’ll tell you another story, something, again, dumb shit I’ve done on myself with nutrition, um, you know, so there was some research that came out that showed that performance gains from caffeine, six to nine milligrams per kilogram, and at the time I was probably about 110 milligrams, so …

Steve:                   Whoa. Whoa.

luke:                      I had … Yeah. That’s a …

Matt:                     So you’re talking about in terms of the grams and milligrams.

luke:                      Gram. So, yeah. About 1000, 1100, somewhere around there, right? So I tried six grams, or six milligrams per kilogram, that works really well.

Jeff:                       I thought you said six grams. You took six grams.

luke:                      No. No. But, but, I, yeah. So the story when I tell you, you’re gonna, you guys are gonna freak out over what I did to myself. So, you know, we were taking high dose and the, you know, 600 milligrams of caffeine, totally fine as long as you’re gonna work out, and 900 to get quite a bit nauseous.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       Mm-hmm (affirmative).

luke:                      And then if you take and don’t work out you get super ridiculously sick.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      But one day I put 15 pills of uh, beta alanine in one pocket and I put 15 pills of um, a supplement that 225 milligrams of caffeine per pill in the other.

Steve:                   Whoa.

luke:                      And so they’re both, they both look the same.

Steve:                   Ehh.

luke:                      And so I was working, I said, “Okay. I’ll take the beta alanine and one I feel that, this tingle start to work, then I’ll uh, pop a couple of these uh, I’ll pop like two or three of these other ones and I’ll go to the gym.” But I forgot which pocket they were in and I ended up taking 15 pills with 225 milligrams of caffeine in them.

Matt:                     Ohh. Yeah.

luke:                      And so I was banging out emails. About 45 minutes later I’m like, “I should feel, I should be tingling by now.”

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      “I don’t understand what’s going on.” And then I realize my heart rate is like 140, 150 and I start freaking out and I realize what I had done, and I went on like this huge four hour speed walk because I, I kept thinking if I stop walking I’m gonna’ have a heart attack, and I ended up eating an entire tub of powdered vitamin C just trying to, trying to …

Jeff:                       Yeah. Neutralize.

Steve:                   What does the vitamin C do?

luke:                      Well it, it, it breaks down catecholamines.

Steve:                   Right.

luke:                      Right? So, it helps to neutralize a lot of that, that, and normally, you know, you eat five or six, seven grams of vitamin C you’re gonna get uh …

Jeff:                       Screwed.

luke:                      You’re gonna get disaster pants.

Matt:                     Hm.

Jeff:                       (laughs)

luke:                      So I ate the entire bottle.

Jeff:                       Wow.

Matt:                     Oh, man.

luke:                      It did nothing.

Matt:                     No disaster pants. (laughs)

luke:                      No disaster pants.

Steve:                   It splatters in your underwear.

Jeff:                       Would you be looking at taking taurine as well too, just to protect the heart or …

luke:                      Yeah, but I didn’t have any.

Jeff:                       Right.

luke:                      You know. It wasn’t soon after that I started having panic attacks and I didn’t realize what it was. As in, it was, I depleted all my taurine, so I started to [crosstalk 00:05:40]

Matt:                     And it’s almost like a post traumatic stress disorder. You actually set your cortisol levels so high that you become resistant to normal levels. [inaudible 00:05:46] switchin’ stuff off.

Steve:                   You’ve gotta’ remember caffeine blocks adenosine. That’s how it works. So really adenosine regulates you, so you, you don’t wanna block too much of that. And, you know …

Jeff:                       Adenosine from adenosine [inaudible 00:05:57]?

Steve:                   Yeah. Yeah. The same thing, but adenosine is a [inaudible 00:06:00] of um, neurotransmitter as well. I don’t want to get too nerdy with you …

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:06:02] by itself.

Steve:                   Right. And so adenosine you can prescribe it in hospitals for people having acute MIs and that sort of stuff. So, adenosine is a, is a, is a molecule that, it calms you down. Helps you sleep for example. And if you block that with caffeine you wake up more. But taking, doing three grams of it can, you know, the average …

Matt:                     Half life.

Steve:                   Yeah. Half life of three hours.

Matt:                     Okay. Let’s figure it. Your average coffee’s what? 80 milli-, 75 milligrams?

Steve:                   75, 80 milligrams.

Matt:                     In a cup of coffee, in a week cup of green tea.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     A normal, one sip of coffee, your Starbucks venti, the big buckets from Starbucks are 500 milligrams …

Jeff:                       Wow. That’s huge.

Matt:                     Of caffeine. So we’re looking at you probably having what? Um, three of those ventis ingested immediately.

Steve:                   Well it’s actually six.

luke:                      Six.

Jeff:                       Six. Wow.

Matt:                     See, I suck at math but I … (laughs)

Jeff:                       That’s not the only thing you suck at.

Steve:                   (laughs) Well …

Jeff:                       Just ask John.

Steve:                   But, you know, the caffeine with it’s half life of three hours, it’s gonna be hanging around a lot. And even if half of it’s gone you’ve still got a gram and a half. The, the highest I’ve ever seen done in the medical studies is 500 milligrams, and that’s for treatment of severe Alzheimers.

Jeff:                       That, that’s nothing. They should just go down to Starbucks and get a venti.

Steve:                   Exactly.

Matt:                     Yeah. Exactly. That’s what they’re doing in this study. [crosstalk 00:07:09] multiple times a day.

Steve:                   Those drinks, you know, the Rockstar drinks um, and the Monster drinks, I think they’ve got, you know, some have got 150, some have got 250 milligrams per can, and they load them up with taurine [inaudible 00:07:18] two grams to [crosstalk 00:07:21]

Matt:                     And hydrous caffeine is very different acting to a caffeine that’s found in green teas, coffees, [inaudible 00:07:28] and that sort of stuff.

Steve:                   Very much so.

Matt:                     Because we’ve also got the polyphenols in there that control the receptor, the cathecholamine receptor activity, you know like you can have a certain amount of caffeine out of green tea as you can out of a coffee and then out of a supplement, and you’ll feel the supplement or you’ll feel that, that drink, you know, that ready to go drink, you’ll feel that. What you won’t feel the green tea at all, and you’ll feel something out of the coffee.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     You know, and that can have exactly the same amount of caffeine. It just depends on the … Like, for example, guarana caffeine, doesn’t give people anywhere near as much of a crash. It’s a slower in and a slower out, you know.

Jeff:                       We used to have this product way back when called Limitless, and [inaudible 00:08:07] remember that Matt and you went more down the um, uh it wasn’t [inaudible 00:08:09] was it? That you used again.

Matt:                     Oh, yeah. We had so many cool stuff in there. I mean we had multiple forms of different caffeine, but it was all slow. Like we had multiple different forms of caffeine to be absorbed at different rates so you didn’t get a spike and a crash.

Jeff:                       Well, and, and, in theory, and it went quite well [inaudible 00:08:24] too in theory, but the thing is that’s before we were manufacturing, and I know that wasn’t being manufactured the way that we want it to be. We should re, [inaudible 00:08:31] that one and dust it off and give it another crack, but [inaudible 00:08:35] because I reckon we’d get better results.

Matt:                     Oh, hell yeah.

Jeff:                       Anyway, I know you’ve got other things in the cupboard you’re using for pre-working.

Matt:                     Oh, yeah. Hey, this is the other thing I’m seeing a lot now. So just in general with overdosing on stuff, people still think they can’t overdose on protein. Like, you just see, like we’ve seen the studies that were done on the, the Germans did a lot of studies trying to work out what the ideal dose of whey was to compare collagen peptides too, and in those studies they screened 10 to 80 grams of whey post workout and found negligible differences. They did find about 20 grams of whey was about the right amount and past they didn’t achieve anything else. Um, so these people that are taking this abundant amount of whey and adding protein into everything, that people just need to realize that what the protein goes in for the amino acids and your muscle. So you get the muscle, the protein synthesis, you get the brain effects, you get detoxification effects, but the 50% of the excess is converted through sugar or something anyway, huh? So that’s another [inaudible 00:09:28] and it adds a lot of burden onto the kidneys and all that sort of stuff if you’re going crazy in excess.

Jeff:                       It’s a really hard one to be efficient with that, again. Selling supplements way back when, guys that are 100 kilos would go the, you know, 30 grams approach isn’t nearly enough, so I’m taking 50 or 60 grams, you know what I mean? And they were looking at not only for post workout recovery, but also going well, I need the macros in through the day anyway because I’m going to get my, you know, 220, 250 grams of protein and whatever I’m trying to get, but yeah.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:09:52] studies and they talk about high protein diets. They’re not high protein diets. They’re protein adequate. So, what we got, so anything more than protein adequate is unnecessary. So what do you do with protein in your clinic? Do you work it out per kilo body weight or …

luke:                      It all depends. So, Jose Antonio put out a couple of really uh, good studies in the last couple of years. I think one of them was six months and one was uh, one year where they took people at uh, anywhere from 2.2 to 3.3 and even up to six grams per kilogram.

Matt:                     Wow.

luke:                      And found in most people there’s no detrimental effect and they’re more protein, seemed to be better.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      But a lot of these studies were also hypo-caloric diets, right?

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      So, when you’re under eating calories you probably need to pump your protein up as long as you can get rid of the nitrogen.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      And that’s part of the problem. People talk about having a positive nitrogen balance, but again, it’s, the body craves balance, right? So you can have too high of a nitrogen balance and then you have to get rid of that through the urea cycle, and then you realize, “Wow. My sweat smells like bleach. I don’t understand what’s going on.”

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

luke:                      Well your body’s trying to get rid of the ammonia because the urea cycle’s not working correctly, ’cause you’ve got a nutrient deficiency or something else is going on, right? Um, so we will typically … I like the 2.2 to 3.3 uh, grams per kilogram. The more uh, carbs I give somebody, the less protein I’m gonna give them. They don’t really need it, but if somebody’s at a hypo-caloric diet and we’re trying to save muscle tissue, I don’t mind using some of that protein to create sugar because when you eat protein you’ve got a 30% reduction to the thermic effect of food. Then if you’re in a lower carbohydrate, lower fat, lower calorie diet, some of that protein will then be turned into sugar through gluco neogenesis, which costs more energy. So you can put someone in that energy deficit without actually like, severely dieting them by, by just through biochemical transformations. Right?

Matt:                     Yep. Yep.

luke:                      So, [inaudible 00:11:38] your strategy.

Matt:                     And [inaudible 00:11:39] obviously removing the ammonia in the urea what are you suggesting for that if people are consuming at a higher protein than, you know, say normal?

luke:                      So, eh, if they’re doing higher than normal and they’re getting to those, those issues of ammonia toxicity, so well, you see this a lot with guys, they’ll do, uh, like a super compensation routine where they’re training twice a day, six days a week and then they’re eating tons of protein and tons of calories and then they go home and, you know, guys when they come back from the gym they take all their clothes off and string them through the house.

Matt:                     (laughs)

luke:                      And then your wife yells at you and you go back and you grab your shirt and you smell your shirt and it smells like bleach.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      It smells like ammonia. If that’s happening, then you probably need to cut the training down a little bit. You’re probably taking it too far in your catabolic. You need to cut the protein down a little bit and then what you guys were talking about, the arginine, that might be a good time to take a little bit of arginine or ornithine or citrulline to try to neutralize some of that, because those are used in the urea cycle, but you don’t need 20 grams of arginine.

Matt:                     No.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      You just need two or three grams will do it and …

Jeff:                       But wouldn’t citrulline [crosstalk 00:12:36]

Matt:                     And glycine.

luke:                      Citrulline would be the pre-, preferred. So like six grams of citrulline or nine grams of citrulline malate, that’s all you need.

Jeff:                       Right. Glycine’s really fit and one of the other common side effects of ammonia toxicity from this is anger, irrational anger, irritability and glycine’s one of the best ways of controllin the neurotransmitters in the brain and having a mild inhibitory effect to offset the ammonia. And avoiding excessive glutenic acids, ’cause it’s by that that it’ll create that kind of temporary insanity. So you should take [crosstalk 00:13:03]

Steve:                   Yeah.

luke:                      Take 80 grams of glycine plus workout.

Jeff:                       Yeah. That’ll slow you down.

luke:                      (laughs)

Jeff:                       Maybe. Yeah. We can start a bit lower. Maybe a couple of grams is enough.

luke:                      It’s a good way to lose weight …

Steve:                   It’s amazing.

luke:                      When you like, have the Hershey squirts and you’re puking at the same time.

Steve:                   Yeah. That should get rid of it.

Jeff:                       Never had that one. The Hershey squirts.

luke:                      When you’ve got brown chocolate [spurtin 00:13:20] out your butt.

Jeff:                       Yeah. Yeah.

Matt:                     Right. There you go. He was just thinking of Hershey kisses.

luke:                      Yeah.

Jeff:                       Right. Okay.

Matt:                     Hey um, so basically [inaudible 00:13:29] the other one that I see a lot of that I just wanna, just quickly cover off on is ketones. Because, no I know I’m gonna stir you up with it, ’cause I’m not gonna specifically just talk about the way people are using them at the moment for fat loss, but in my experience I’ve had really good experience using ketones as a neurotropic. Ketones for mental clarity. Ketones for antiepileptic. I mean I used to gnarl the ketones and go low carb for my exams. So whenever I come into study time and exam time, I’d go fully low carb, get into ketosis, and when I wasn’t in ketosis I’d be supplementing ketones to stay smart and sharp, which I’m all cool with, except the fact at the moment I’m seeing ketones popping up into everything being told that it’s going to keep you in fat burning mode.

Jeff:                       Just, just before Luke comments, ’cause, just to give some history as well too. Matt I know that we’ve slammed ketones, raspberry ketones, for examples. [crosstalk 00:14:20]

Matt:                     Raspberry ketones. [crosstalk 00:14:20] That exploded. That was a weird study I read. That said your raspberry ketones make your nuts explode and then people said this is a good idea to supplement with. [inaudible 00:14:27]

Jeff:                       Yeah. And it’s like anything. It’s like a tool, right? It’s the same as, as non [inaudible 00:14:30] sweeteners there’s a time and a place, um, you know, whatever that may be, so the way I think ketones in the general marketplace at the moment, especially with some of the network marketing companies are out there, the claims I think …

Matt:                     Oh, yeah.

Jeff:                       And what they’re saying. They do everything from make you a rocket scientist …

Matt:                     Oh.

Jeff:                       And, you know, give you, give you wings.

Matt:                     And put it in that breastfeeding and put it into your baby’s bottle and give it to your childrens and, but then they’re all keto [inaudible 00:14:55] fat loss.

Jeff:                       So let’s, let’s, again, as, as some of the [inaudible 00:14:57] whenever I mention this, this is gonna be a huzzah moment. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let’s talk about uh, you know, where ketones, and we’ve talked a lot about with them being misrepresented and used poorly met and, you know, all the rest of it, but there are some places that they’re good, and that they do work. But, [inaudible 00:15:13] Luke, you go first mate, and we’ll circle back around.

luke:                      Alright. So …

Matt:                     (laughs)

Jeff:                       ‘Cause I mean, y-y-you, the look in your face is the same as the way that I feel a lot of time when I hear ketones.

luke:                      Look, here’s the thing that people think that all this ketone stuff is brand new, but, you know, I was doing this 20, 22 years ago when I was 18 and I was doing like Atkins and stuff and Beach Diet and all that, and the first recorded kind of low carb, high fat diet was in Letters of, Letters of Corpulence by William Banting in 1863.

Jeff:                       1863.

Matt:                     Wow.

luke:                      Right?

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      So, this is not a new thing, and everybody’s jumping on the bandwagon so, can I talk about the [inaudible 00:15:46] of ketone first …

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      And then I’ll talk about k-ketones as nutritional ke- …

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah

Jeff:                       A-and how they’re being, and how they’re being u-u-used or misused.

luke:                      You. So, okay. So, you’re epileptic. Great. You use the ketones because then you’re able to eat a normal diet and eat carbohydrates and take the ketones and not have seizures. That’s awesome. If you’re taking it for the brain benefits the brain loves carbs. K? So if you can get carbs into the brain properly that is the preferred fuel source, you know? Um, can they increase performance, and especially uh, cognitive performance? Yes. But the problem is they’re really expensive and the majority of them are through MLM fucking marketing things. I cannot stand these MLM people. Right? If you wanna, if you wanna ostracize yourself, lose all you friends, lose all your family members, join a fucking MLM.

Steve:                   Do you know the reason for that? Is a lot of people who get into MLMs are not actually business people. They’re [crosstalk 00:16:41] people.

luke:                      No. They’re not.

Steve:                   I mean, the, and there are some, there are some good companies out there with MLM and there are some good practitioners, but I understand what you’re saying. The rank and file have no clue how to do business, and so then they become the annoying …

luke:                      Yeah.

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:16:53] can make claims.

Steve:                   Yes. That’s what [crosstalk 00:16:56]

Matt:                     No professional could ever make, and no professional ever would, ’cause we know better. So when you go to [inaudible 00:17:02] say, it’s perfectly fine to use [inaudible 00:17:04] breastfeeding and in fact, it can only do good things and anyone that says negative is just bitchy.

Steve:                   I’ll tell you a sad story. Uh, and I won’t mention any names or anything, but there is a nurse who’s selling loads of MLM stuff at the hospital.

Matt:                     I don’t doubt it.

Steve:                   Uh, now that’s scary because you’re coming across as a professional …

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah.

Steve:                   Health worker and you’re selling MLM.

Jeff:                       There’s something else as well too, that somebody I know very close has, has, has uh, recently had an appointment. She went there and they recommended this MLM company’s product. We met, had a look at it, and he’s like, “This is terrible stuff. The only reason they’re recommending is it because there’s money to be made.” Now I’m not bagging all MLMs. There are some good ones out there with some cool stuff, but like anything, they’re few and far between. Like good companies, they’re few and far between. Like most things. But, yeah. I understand your frustration.

luke:                      I’m working with a, a, a AFL guy in uh, Victoria, and I’m looking at some of the stuff he’s on and I look at this and go, “What is this product?” And I looked it up and it was an MLM company. I go … And the ingredients were just rubbish. It wasn’t even close to the amounts you need to actually make things work, and I go, “Where’d you get this?” He goes, “Uh, my doctor got it for me.” And it was basically on every single product that that company made and I go, “There’s not enough of the actual ingredients in any of this to do anything, and it looks like this is probably quite expensive.” He goes, “Yeah. Its’ super expensive.” And I go, “Yeah. It’s making your wallet lighter, but you’re not getting any lighter or faster.” So, let’s take you off this and put you on some stuff that actually works.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      But, the other thing, the thing I have with the ketones as well is they’re, they’re marketing them as a fat loss supplement.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      They’re not a fat loss supplement. They, they’re a byproduct of fat loss metabolism. Right? So if you’re ingesting all these ketones, it’s like the branch chains. You’re taking tons of branch chains, that has a caloric value. The ketones have a caloric value, and if you’re taking a lot of them there’s a negative feedback loop that makes the body go, okay. My brain has plenty of ketones. I don’t need to break all of this fat down. So you have people taking it all day and they’re, they’re taking it for the wrong reason, and it’s being marketed as something wrong and I’ve got a problem with that.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      And as well you can make ketones for free. Really easily.

Matt:                     By burning fat.

luke:                      Like burning fat.

Steve:                   Go for a run in the morning with me and I’ll even leave my shirt on. There you go.

luke:                      But you know what people want …

Jeff:                       And your pants too.

Steve:                   Oh. Maybe.

luke:                      Pe- people want change, right? They want change but they don’t wanna do anything. They don’t, they, they want to keep their current lifestyle but then they want to get lean and strong and all this.

Jeff:                       It’s a microwave society.

luke:                      That’s it. They just, I just want a product or a pill that will change everything without actually having to change anything.

Matt:                     Yep.

Steve:                   Yep. And what if you can pee on a stick and it confirms change?

luke:                      Oh, well, you know, you take a ketone and now you’re in ketosis. You’re not in ketosis. It’s like if I, if I, if I ate …

Steve:                   You are in ketosis, but you’re not ketogenic.

luke:                      You’re not ketogenic.

Steve:                   Yeah.

luke:                      You don’t have ketogenesis, which is kind of the point of fat breakdown.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      It’s like if I, if I took my blood sugar right now and this morning my [inaudible 00:19:58] and blood sugar was 4.5.

Matt:                     That’s good.

luke:                      If I drank like, 400 grams of glucose and then took it, it would be sitting at like 21. Am I now diabetic?

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

luke:                      Am I diabetic for the next two hours because I took a bolus dose of glucose?

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah.

luke:                      That’s, that’s, that’s ridiculous to say, but that’s what the ketone people are saying, right?

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why those keto sticks exist is because to monitor people, to make sure they don’t get too many ketones and get kidney disease.

luke:                      Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Keto acidosis will kill you. And so the funny thing is the whole, the original reason why those sort of tools exist is so people can measure their ketones and go, “Oh, wow. I’m getting too much ketones. We’re gonna drink more water. I’m gonna increase my calories. I gotta get back, I gotta burn some.” So basically I’ve gotta protect my kidneys.

luke:                      Yeah. If you’re dia-, if you’re diabetic I need it. Shoot up some insulin because I gotta get the ketones down, right?

Matt:                     Exactly.

luke:                      I’ve got a type one diabetic right now out of Hong Kong and he’s on a very, very low carb ketogenic cell diet because he’s got H pylori sibo.

Matt:                     Yep.

luke:                      So, we’re monitoring his beta, beta [inaudible 00:21:00]. So we’re monitoring his blood ketones to make sure they don’t get too high.

Matt:                     Yep.

luke:                      And he’s having fantastic results, but he knows how to use insulin to keep that in the right area.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      So, a lot of people are buying the, the ketometers now …

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      And they’ll, they’ll take their ketones and say, “Look. I’m at .3.” And then they’ll take the keto OS and then oh, all of a sudden they’re at 1.2. Well now I’m, I’m in ketogenesis. You’re not.

Matt:                     No. You’re, you’ve got exogenous ketones measuring, that’s what you’re measuring and reading.

luke:                      Yeah.

Matt:                     And the frustrating thing is in the past it was all about trying to keep those levels down and keep the color off the sticks to make sure you’re safe. Now people are trying to get the strongest, highest color on the stickers [crosstalk 00:21:37].

Jeff:                       Yeah. They can get purple [crosstalk 00:21:39].

Matt:                     And [crosstalk 00:21:38] draining themselves and then they constantly measuring this thing and they’ve got this thing in their mind that if I can change the color on the sticks, I am burning fat. And it’s not the case. They’re actually, if you’re changing color sticks, you’re ex- you’re excreting ketones. Those ketones may be coming from a thing you’ve drank, or they may be coming from you breaking down fat. But when you get too many of them, your body can’t stop you from drinking these things ’cause you’re part of a month subscription. And so, so basically um, in sends a message back to your body saying because this person’s on a month long prescription and they want to actually um, use these products they’ve paid for, we’re gonna have to stop burning fat.

Jeff:                       Yes.

Matt:                     In the short term with ketones, what these people feel is remarkable results. They feel energy. They feel awake. They feel strength and power, and it does keep them out of starvation mode, you know. Like, because the calories that are coming in, they get less [inaudible 00:22:28] I mean, this is one of their advertising campaigns they used to sell ketones is you get less cravings, you get more [inaudible 00:22:34], you get better energy. Very similar things to we get when we’re actually not in a calorie deficit.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Matt:                     And that’s what they’re actually achieving with it.

luke:                      The problem is people get dependent on it and they don’t want to change anything else. So you have people, you’ve got a society of people that have poor glucose sensitivity, they have poor insulin management, and then they take something that, that can give them energy irrespective of all these things. Then like, great. I can eat all these carbs and then take these ketones. So they’re going about it kind of the wrong way.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      Like if, if somebody came to me and, you know, ketogenic dieting is really popular now, and they wanted to take ketones for the first two weeks to kind of get over the keto flu and all that.

Matt:                     Yep.

luke:                      That’s a perfect time to take it, right?

Matt:                     Exactly. Yeah.

luke:                      Uh, but you don’t wanna be dependent on taking it all the time.

Jeff:                       So in other words too much of a good thing. It can be used as a good tool, but again, it’s over- …

luke:                      Absolutely.

Jeff:                       But that always seems to happen, doesn’t it? The pendulum just swings too far.

Matt:                     But it’s not a fat loss tool is to the other point.

Jeff:                       No. It’s not.

Matt:                     It’s actually a performance tool. It’s a brain and muscle performance thing. And, does anyone know the calorific, I like saying calorific, ’cause it sounds almost like terrific, but does anyone know the calorific value of ketones?

Steve:                   I think it’s nine grams per, uh,[crosstalk 00:23:37] Yeah. Yeah. Nine calories per gram.

luke:                      That’s the same as fat.

Matt:                     That’s the same as fat.

Steve:                   Same as fat.

Matt:                     Yeah. ‘Cause it acts the same as fat.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     I mean it’s a byproduct of fat burning.

Steve:                   Yeah. [inaudible 00:23:46] it’s very similar [inaudible 00:23:48] in the middle of it if you want [inaudible 00:23:50]

luke:                      If you want more energy, more calories, just, just drink booze, man. They’re seven calories. You save two calories and I feel pretty good.

Steve:                   There you go.

Matt:                     And you get high.

luke:                      And you get high.

Matt:                     Yeah. And you perform pretty well.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      Makes you a good dancer.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      You feel like Superman, you know.

Matt:                     Yeah, I probably burn a lot more calories when I’m drunk. I’m a hell of a lot funnier. I can dance.

Steve:                   You’re more attractive as well.

Matt:                     Oh, that’s what they say when I get other people drunk.

Steve:                   They’re called beer goggles.

Jeff:                       Beer goggles.

Matt:                     Is that a kiwi version of saying beer goggles or are you saying it …

Steve:                   Learn how to speak English. Actually, New Zealand English is closer to the original English than the [inaudible 00:24:26]

Matt:                     But hang on. That word you just said. Beer. How do you spell it?

Steve:                   B-E-E-R.

Matt:                     Okay. So you are referring to beer googles. Okay. I was just trying to, I wasn’t sure if he wanted me to wear these hairy goggles with ears attached like gr, I got my bear goggles on. Find myself a bear. Arg. There she goes again! No one can understand you she-bear!

luke:                      Oh, jeez.

Matt:                     (laughs) Anyway.

Steve:                   It’s funny.

luke:                      Look, also on the, on the ketone thing and, you know, that’s so common for people to want to jump in the ketogenic dieting right now and I really like what my friend, Dr. Mike T. Nelson, who has like 15 PHDs and he’s one of the smartest guys that I know, and he’s, he’s huge into the research, and he teaches uh, courses on like metabolic flexibility and he goes, “Look, let’s look at the ketogenic diet.” He goes, “This is a backup survival, uh, pathway for when you can’t find food. If you’re trying to perform, why the fuck would you not want carbs? Why would you want to be in ketosis when that’s like, survival, and when carbs mean performance?” So, what we typically teach people is if you’re interested in physique, yeah. Go a little bit low carb. Do you have to go into ketosis? Absolutely not, but you might have to go lower carb to increase your metabolic flexibility so that you can modulate fat burning and keep the respiratory quotient where you want it. But if you’re an athlete you have to have carbs. [crosstalk 00:25:42]

Steve:                   So, but, every time I’ve gone into ke-ke- ketosis, definitely my strength and my [para 00:25:46] has dropped. Absolutely.

Matt:                     Yeah. Of course.

Steve:                   And I think, and I think a l-, when I was utilizing ketosis as a, as a, an idea to help people is because they had over, gone too far on the carbohydrates. Effectively it was almost like retraining their body how you don’t use as many carbohydrates as you, as you, as you think you need.

Matt:                     Yeah. And giving the receptors a break from insulin so they can become sensitive to it again. But, what’s really important when you’re taking about athletes and ketogenic, while in a ketogenic phase and training hard and pushing not performing well, but then starting to improve, we get excessive mitochondrial biogenesis. We actually get tougher and stronger, and it’s a good strategy to use to actually improve someone’s endurance or strength capacity, but then what we do, it’s just like [inaudible 00:26:29], you know, then we prior to the competition we throw all the carbs back in. So the whole thing is we put them into a deficit. Yeah, the baseball guys, they’re swinging around the heavy bat, then we take it off, and off they go. It’s the same concept. We make, we put a hand brake on you to make it work harder for you.

Steve:                   Like running with the parachute.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Matt:                     And so you build up extra mitochondria, you get extra energy pro- production pathways, then when you throw the calories and the carbs and everything back in, all of a sudden it’s like, whew! Let’s go!

Steve:                   Hey, we, we, we’re getting better at cycling, which is what we talked about [inaudible 00:26:59], which is about, you know, the high calorie diets, the high, you know the bulking phases, and then the leaning phases. In nature we have those cycles.

Matt:                     Yeah. They’ve got seasons.

Steve:                   All the time. Yeah.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah. You know? If you’re living in a really cold environment, there’s no fruits around …

Matt:                     You’re ketogenic in Winter.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:27:12] and thermagenic the whole time.

Steve:                   And you’re right. It is a backup thing, but if you supplement with ketones remember it does down regulate the basal metabolic rate, ’cause it is a survival [inaudible 00:27:22].

Matt:                     Does it really?

Steve:                   Yeah. It down regulates your basal metabolic rate.

Matt:                     Oh, is that right?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     I didn’t even know that.

Steve:                   Yeah. It was in our podcast. I don’t think you were doing that one.

Matt:                     Probably not. I might’ve been. [crosstalk 00:27:29]

Steve:                   [crosstalk 00:27:29] But it, it does. It just down regulates basal metabolic, which is not, you know, again, as long as you’re aware of it, and you’re happy to, you know, cut back our performance for that time and lose the weight, then it’s fine.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah.

luke:                      When you talk about the cycling, wh- what we typically teach, we teach trainers to think about things biochemically.

Steve:                   Hm.

luke:                      So, instead of like, the way we [inaudible 00:27:52] things, you think about [inaudible 00:27:53] mTOR for a while and then you [inaudible 00:27:56] AMPK for a while, and that could be, that could be, you know, carb cycling like one day an mTOR day, one day and AMPK day. That could be a few weeks in one and a few weeks in the other, but you’re creating that balance.

Steve:                   Yes.

luke:                      Right? And um, yeah. So, that’s, that’s the way people need to start thinking about things and thinking about things in balance instead of just going full potato and going way on one side and reacting and going way back on the other side.

Jeff:                       And that’s what we’re saying before. Actually, just quickly [inaudible 00:28:22] too, this is interesting in a p- plug if you like for the noway protein because noway doesn’t have any, um, gluten or very low amounts, but yet it still, um, up regulates mTOR, but it also has an effect on [inaudible 00:28:31] too. So it’s, it’s an unusual product that seems to sort of work on both sides of the coin.

luke:                      And some things can stimulate mTOR without actually stimulating growth factors. Like fish oil can stimulate mTOR in a whole different way that’s not as inflammatory and still allows for better protein synthesis.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   There, there, there’s mTOR one and two. So, just to give you a bit of background with that, there’s two different pathways.

Matt:                     Right. What’s different?

Steve:                   Well one of them has, you can actually describe it very well. One is the mTOR one that we, we classically talk about which stimulates growth.

Matt:                     Muscle growth.

Steve:                   Yeah. And those are the mTOR two is another way to form growth of normal replication of cells and cell cycle.

Jeff:                       So, obviously omegas are important for that, so the, the amp. Perfect. Would be perfect for that, but would have an anti-inflammatory effect as well too.

Steve:                   Very much so.

Matt:                     Hm.

Steve:                   And a fat burning effect, you know. It’s, it’s a win-win-win situation.

Matt:                     So when you look at it though, just to for [inaudible 00:29:26] product, it’s an essential fatty acid product. The ability for it to stimulate MK is also very high and it’s ability to stimulate mTOR, and the governing factor whether it’s driving MK or mTOR is your calories.

Steve:                   Calories. Yeah.

Matt:                     So if you’re in a calorie surplus and using AMV then you’ll be getting more mTOR activity. If you’re in a calorie deficit using AMV like, before [inaudible 00:29:45] cardio, you’re gonna get more of the MK fat burning effects. So, it’ll depend on your calorie surplus or your deficit of whether MK, I’m sorry, AMV is anabolic or catabolic.

Jeff:                       Hm. That’s good.

luke:                      I think a lot of people need to understand too that vitamins and minerals can do different things. They’re situational dependent, right? So you hear people all the time say, oh, magnesium. It’s a sleep supplement. Okay. So if it was a sleep supplement, if you take an electrolyte with magnesium and then you go squat, have you ever fallen asleep during a squat?

Matt:                     Yeah. Exactly.

luke:                      No. It does help sleep.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      It does help relaxation, right? It’s a calcium channel blocker. But if you take magnesium and you need ATP and you’re stimulating AMPK, then you’re gonna make more ATP and then you’re gonna make ATP more bioavailable.

Matt:                     Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so [inaudible 00:30:32] look at magnesium itself involved in 600 different enzymes. They’re not all driving one particular function.

Steve:                   Not all putting you to sleep, obviously.

Matt:                     No. Hell no.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Um, yeah. That’s a good point. With that magnesium in particular.

Steve:                   You actually, you actually, I think you described magnesium really well when you say it creates an off switch.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   It doesn’t turn it off.

Matt:                     Yeah. It makes sure it’s cap-, you’re capable of switching it off.

Steve:                   Yeah. That’s right.

Matt:                     Yeah, so. And your fine though when, when this, it goes back to our original point, if you are magnesium deficient and that sort of stuff, there’s a time and a place for mega dosing magnesium. You’ll know when you’ve corrected your deficiency and you’re going over, ’cause you’ll get the squirts. Um, but a lot of these things don’t have those sort of side effects. You know, like I love the B vitamins and that sort of stuff. You overdose them, they get into your body, you might get some colored urine thinking, oh, that’s fine. It just goes straight through urine, but on the way it creates all sorts of problems, you know.

Jeff:                       Can I, can I address now the B for bad vitamins when they say oh, it just makes your urine expensive and passes straight through you. Of course it passes through you because you, if you’re built up with vitamins it’d become toxic.

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff:                       So this weird thing that you shouldn’t, I mean I shouldn’t drink water ’cause that comes out the other end as water.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       I mean, it does stuff along the way too.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:31:39] clear it makes your urine.

Jeff:                       Yeah. Yeah.

Matt:                     (laughs)

Jeff:                       You know, it’s like, it’s a ridiculous scenario.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       You know we, we do find excesses of vitamins and we do find [crosstalk 00:31:46] need them.

Matt:                     Well, it’s a really good point that, and that’s one of the things in the papers they say is a reason why we have the vitamin toxicities occurring right now. ‘Cause we’ve got a lot of fortified foods, we’ve got a lot of synthetic vitamins going on, and people aren’t sweating as much. So we are urinating and that sort of stuff, but we’re not perspiring as much, so then we can’t urinate the excess that we would perspire, and that’s a major problem with vitamin toxicity.

Steve:                   It came to light …

Jeff:                       And exercise obviously, pa- panting it out’s another way. [crosstalk 00:32:12]

Matt:                     Yeah. That’s right.

Jeff:                       So, you know, again, if you’re [inaudible 00:32:13] you’re more at risk of obviously overdosing with vitamins.

Steve:                   Very much so. You know, the, the first I overdosed with vitamins [inaudible 00:32:19] of course and the South Pole.

Matt:                     Of course.

Steve:                   And, and so, you know, when you have these dogs …

Matt:                     When you have these dogs.

Steve:                   Yeah. [crosstalk 00:32:27]

Jeff:                       What was it? Vitamin A?

Steve:                   Yeah. Vitamin A. Yeah. He was an explorer.

Matt:                     And he set himself blind, didn’t he?

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Matt:                     Classic sign, because the first thing that happened to him he went blind from excessive vitamin A, but what are we say? Vitamin A doctrine [inaudible 00:32:36] helps you see in the night.

Steve:                   It helps with vision. Purple production in your eye for night vision if you want to know that nerdy detail.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   But, you know, it’s, it’s …

Jeff:                       Yeah. Night blindness. Yeah. A lot of people suffer from that. So you get some more vitamin A.

Steve:                   Vitamin A.

Jeff:                       And if you’ve got, if you’re diagnosed with night blindness.

Matt:                     But don’t eat your dog’s liver. You’ll die.

Steve:                   No. No. Don’t eat dog liver. That’s uh, that’s bad. (laughs)

Matt:                     Especially if it’s supposed to be [crosstalk 00:32:56].

Steve:                   It’s funny because the other guy that was with him, [inaudible 00:32:59], actually fell down a crevasse. So, uh …

Matt:                     What’s so funny about that?

Steve:                   No, no. It’s funny because …

Matt:                     What an ass.

Steve:                   Because.

Matt:                     Who’s this guy?

Steve:                   No, no. Listen to me. Hear me out.

Jeff:                       Oh, look. You’ve fallen out of it. [crosstalk 00:33:06]

Steve:                   Well, well, I mean, [crosstalk 00:33:09]. You make jokes 100 years ago. We got that 100 year limit.

Matt:                     Too soon.

Jeff:                       Too soon.

Steve:                   Too soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff:                       (laughs)

Matt:                     (laughs)

Steve:                   It’s 100 limit [inaudible 00:33:16]. But anyway, was he blind and didn’t see the damn gap, or was it [crosstalk 00:33:20]

Matt:                     Oh, maybe. (laughs)

Steve:                   Do you know what I mean?

Jeff:                       Or maybe he was pushed. [crosstalk 00:33:23]

Steve:                   That’s, that’s [crosstalk 00:33:23]

Jeff:                       Oh, this is a new twist, wasn’t it?

Matt:                     He’s probably looking for his dog. Probably running around. “Have you seen my dog?”

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:33:27] That barbecue smells good.

Steve:                   He was the guy carrying, carrying most of the food, and of course he went down the creva-, with the food …

Matt:                     Oh, no!

Steve:                   So then it forced him to eat more dog liver.

Matt:                     Oh, my gosh!

Steve:                   So it got worse after that. So …

Matt:                     Where is this place? That just sounds like a terrible place [crosstalk 00:33:42]

Steve:                   Antarctica!

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:33:45] going there.

Jeff:                       No, me neither. That’d be horrible.

Steve:                   But, you know, of course, you know. Morrison came back and, and [inaudible 00:33:51] so, that, that’s one man …

Jeff:                       He probably pushed them both, didn’t he?

Matt:                     What a load of shit! [inaudible 00:33:54]

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:33:55] food.

Steve:                   I didn’t make this story up.

Matt:                     Yeah. Something went crazy. I ate all the food, pushed our mate [inaudible 00:34:02] tell the other bloke that ate all the food, pushes him down a crack. The other guy, “Here! Here! I made you a burger!’

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     A bit of dog liver. Watch this little fool go by and then he goes home. “Oh, this idiot! I ate the dog. He fell in a hole! I’m fine.”

Steve:                   So, there’s a, there’s a moral of the story to this guys.

Matt:                     Don’t travel with what’s his name?

Steve:                   Don’t let anybody push …

Jeff:                       Morton.

Matt:                     Oh, yeah. Yeah. Don’t travel with Mort- …

luke:                      You’ve got, you had a really good point there about like, the sweating. People tend to think that because B vitamins are f-, are water soluble that you’re just gonna pee them out or sweat them out, but how many women do we know don’t sweat?

Matt:                     Yeah!

luke:                      And how many people don’t really pee a whole lot or drink a lot of water? You know you get stressed out and [inaudible 00:34:38] and cortisol goes up, you start retaining sodium, you’re gonna retain all those vitamins …

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      And you’re not, you’re not urinating them out.

Matt:                     Yep. Yep.

Jeff:                       Ladies glow for the um, yeah.

Matt:                     What?

Jeff:                       Ladies glow. Men perspire horse’s sweat. Yeah. Anyway. But, no. That’s sexist, because a lot of women do perspire.

luke:                      Okay.

Matt:                     (laughs)

Steve:                   (laughs) See, he’s trying to be politically correct, but otherwise though …

Jeff:                       Yeah [crosstalk 00:35:01] See, this is what [crosstalk 00:35:03]. This is what goes wrong when you try to be politically correct.

Matt:                     Yeah. This is the wrong room to be politically correct.

Steve:                   I’m the one that has to be, has to be politically correct.

Matt:                     Why?

Steve:                   Like it’s fine for Steve to cross dress. It’s fine for John to be gay. There’s no problem with that.

Jeff:                       No problem at all.

Matt:                     This is why [crosstalk 00:35:17] sit down and listen to the podcast. That’s why.

Jeff:                       (laughs)

Steve:                   (laughs)

Jeff:                       She’s the least politically correct person I know.

Matt:                     Really?

Jeff:                       Oh, yeah.

luke:                      Can you, can you even get vi-, like preformed vitamin A in a supplement here? I don’t think you can.

Matt:                     Oh. I don’t know.

luke:                      I think you can only buy beta keratin.

Matt:                     TGA won’t let you do it. We don’t do it as a food. So we can get foods that naturally have it.

luke:                      [crosstalk 00:35:35] import it from the US.

Matt:                     yeah.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      The US is like, US is like the wild west. You just get whatever. They don’t even care.

Matt:                     Typically dog liver we use here.

luke:                      Yeah.

Steve:                   (laughs)

Jeff:                       (laughs)

Matt:                     Just dose it properly.

Jeff:                       That’s beta keratin, right? That’s what we have.

Matt:                     Yeah. We’ve got crappy beta keratin. The reason why it’s so in Australia, it’s a messed up thing, TGA will not let you make nutritive claims on plant containing nutrients. You’re only allowed to use synthetics.

Jeff:                       Yep.

Matt:                     Which is crazy messed up, and the reason why is because when you register a product with TGA you’re allowed to register your recipe once. It’s not allowed to change. Variation in plants occur, so sometimes we might need to add more, sometimes we might need to add less. Every time you do that you’ve gotta register a whole new product. The only thing that are consistent are things that are synthetically made such as beta keratin [inaudible 00:36:22].

So then back to the loop to the start of our podcast when they do these meta analysis on people taking vitamins, they’re not. They’re taking beta keratin. They’re taking vitamin E mega doses, and when they talk about antioxidants, that’s what they’re talking about. Vitamin A and E and maybe some C. Um, the rest of the time everyone’s doing everything dodgy and synthetic. So, in Australia, like for example we talk about folic acid toxicity. If you make a multivitamin in Australia, you’re not allowed to use 5 mthf. You’re not allowed to use the other folinate. You can only use folic acid. Again, the reason why, it’s consistent. The levels are consistent, but also when it comes to studying these things, instead of extracting keratinoids from plants to study, or instead of extracting folate, methylfolate, or standardizing a plant to be methylfolate and then seeing what happens, it’s easier to use synthetics.

And they do all these studies on the synthetics, so when it comes time to make a decision on what is well studied, you know, what should we allow people to use? The folic acid might have a pile of papers a foot high, and the um, and the methylfolate might only be a little bit, because there’s no one investing research into it, so then they go oh, folic acid’s [inaudible 00:37:29] so once it’s proven it’s the real stuff. And this is how we end up this way.

But the worst thing is too for us reading labels. So you have a look at a label. You get, if I get a natural plant vitamin A source, um, from a carrot let’s just say for example I wanted a carrot extract and I say standardize to vitamin A, I actually standardize it to beta keratin. So people get the hang of reading a label saying carrot extract standardized to beta keratin this much, then the next product carrot extract standardized to this much beta keratin, people learn to look for beta keratin and buy the product with the highest amount of beta keratin. I do that for a while, then they go let’s just do it just the carrot bit. We’ll put beta keratin 10 milligrams compared to these guys did one milligram. We [inaudible 00:38:11] better.

And this is how we’ve ended up with these things where all these synthetics are looked at as natural. When I tell people that folic acid doesn’t occur inside of a plant in nature they go, “Rubbish. That’s the most natural thing.”

Jeff:                       Yeah. [crosstalk 00:38:22]

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:38:23] but, yeah.

luke:                      One of the things we’ve seen, um, in the past couple of years is a lot of people with a BC01 gene issue, so they, they have a dampened ability to break beta keratin down into vitamin A, so um, what we’ve found was we had a, we had a seminar in Perth, and we were telling them you should eat your veggies. You have to eat fruits and veggies. If you’re not willing to eat that, you don’t deserve to eat your meat. So, everybody in the class, 30 people, they’re pumping veggies, pumping veggies, seven or eight months later I come back and half the class, all their skin turned orange and yellow.

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

luke:                      And if you have the BC01 snip, that’s what’s gonna happen and uh, we had some girls in there that had some thyroid issues. They had messed themselves up doing contest prep and I said, “Okay. We’ll do like a Dr. Vazques like vitamin load, for like a week.” And some of these girls were losing four, five, six pounds in like seven to ten days by taking preform vitamin A ’cause they weren’t getting any out of their diet.

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah. Man. Wonder what percentage that is in the population?

Jeff:                       I can’t remember this but that, but um, basically what you’re talking about is beta keratin converts or the [inaudible 00:39:26] to vitamin A. Some people have that problem with their gene conversion. It’s zinc dependent and [inaudible 00:39:32] dependent.

Matt:                     I know the guys that go mental with Roaccutane?

Jeff:                       Oh, ro-, yeah, yeah. Roaccutane toxicity is very common because they use the synthetic form of vitamin A which is a [sis 00:39:40] nine, trans 11 version which is completely not found in nature.

luke:                      It’s pretty high dose too, isn’t it?

Jeff:                       Well yeah. They, they, they used to use like a lot more than what they’re doing now, but still even now the side effects are horrendous. In fact …

luke:                      Photosensitivity is pretty …

Jeff:                       Yeah. There’s a, there’s a, a, a pharma, or what, medical conference on um, dermatology that I’m speaking at in a couple of weeks, and they’re talking about the dangers of Roaccutane there. So that’ll be …

Matt:                     That was my first ever referral as a [inaudible 00:40:07] from a doctor. Was a doctor sent his son to me who works with sort of depression after his dad put him on Roaccutane and he said [inaudible 00:40:13] become serious.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       Pretty [inaudible 00:40:17].

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       We are running short for time so, Luke, I’m gonna’ throw to you. Any last words of wisdom? Or any final requests?

Matt:                     Design a meme. Come on.

Jeff:                       What’s that? (laughs)

Matt:                     (laughs)

luke:                      Um, look both ways before you cross the street.

Jeff:                       Wow. [crosstalk 00:40:33]

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:40:35]

luke:                      Uh, never trust a fart.

Jeff:                       Wow. That’s a good one.

Matt:                     Oh, that is a really good one.

luke:                      Never pass on a boner.

Matt:                     What?

Jeff:                       Steve’s right with you there.

Matt:                     Yeah. Yeah. I’m 49 now. When was that one? I missed it.

Jeff:                       The exquisite erection selection I think you said.

Matt:                     So you try, so this never pass out on a boner. So every time I get a woody we gotta do something?

Jeff:                       (laughs)

luke:                      Well we don’t. No. But you should.

Jeff:                       Really? Wow. Wow.

Matt:                     I’d never get any bloody work done!

Jeff:                       What’s the different? Um, Steve-o, any words of wisdom?

Steve:                   Look, just be careful there the vitamins.

Matt:                     It’s not that big Steve. Put your hands down.

Steve:                   Oh. Sorry. (laughs)

Matt:                     (laughs)

Jeff:                       (laughs) That’s about …

Steve:                   Vitamins!

Jeff:                       That’s, that’s more realistic.

Steve:                   Vitamins are not created equally. We have synthetic ones and we have natural ones. The research that come up with studies show supplement vitamins is bad like this one is, is because they’re the synthetic ones and they’re testing things that aren’t found in food unless they’re fortified back in food, and it’s [inaudible 00:41:34]

Jeff:                       It’s still synthetic. They’re putting synthetics back into nature.

Steve:                   Yeah. It’s [inaudible 00:41:36]. I, I’m not a fan of synthetic vitamins at all.

Jeff:                       Nope. And again, our catch cry always is eat fresh. Eat local. Eat organic where you possibly can. Um, and you know it’s one of the best things you can do. Food is medicine. Get back into that. And again this is, so many times we’ve heard it and I appreciate it for those people who have heard this a million times. That’s why we’ve created Multi Food from nature, all the [inaudible 00:41:56]. And the results that we get are so astounding from people every day writing in testimonies of how they’ve improved. Some serious health, some just with regards to energy, uh, anyway.

luke:                      Well I, you know, I, I, everybody class somebody asks about Multi Food and I, I tell them the same thing. I said, “Man, I looked up a bottle of this and I said, ‘Matt, you’re full of shit.'” And he said, “Well try it.” And I did and I went about two months on it and then when I ran out, like id didn’t feel anything while I was on it. When I ran out I went, “Oh, man. I don’t feel normal.” And every person that’s come to our courses says the same thing. They didn’t notice anything until they ran out, and then they were like, “Wow. I feel off.”

Jeff:                       Yep. And they go back to normal ’cause it’s a gradual incline. A gradual improvement if you like in terms of so many processes in the body, and then when you take it away again, it’s like, it’s like the stock market. They say that the bull climbs up the stairs and the bear jumps out the window. It’s the same thing. It takes time going up and then boom. All of a sudden when it drops it drops quick.

luke:                      Well and a lot of people are going to look at that and they’re gonna look at the label and think that there’s not a whole to of stuff in there, but what they’re not seeing is what you don’t put on the label. It’s the 8000 chemicals that we don’t have a name for and we don’t know what the fuck we do. We just know they make the, the processes work better.

Jeff:                       What’s really funny is that we actually had a conference call while we were waiting for you, that’s what the meeting we had today with our growers, and the demand for this stuff is so high that we’re having to ration it. Like the demand for our stuff, because we’re, we’re obviously expanding globally now, we can’t supply it to all of our customers in the United States.

Matt:                     Isn’t it organically grown? So for us to increase our, to buy more, we actually grow more farms. Build more farms, and then they grow more food, and then [inaudible 00:43:35] we gotta grow it, we’ve gotta test it, we’re gonna measure it, yeah, we gotta predict a yield, but we actually gotta pre-allocate dirt and patches of garden to us to actually be able to keep up with the demand, and it’s, it’s out of control.

Steve:                   And here’s the crazy thing. If you did the, if you did it the wrong way, the old way, which is synthetic, you would never have a problem with [inaudible 00:43:53].

Matt:                     Oh, no.

Steve:                   You just go give me that chemical. It’s as stable as anything. You store it for a few years.

Matt:                     This is my concern though.

Steve:                   Not a problem.

luke:                      Fire up the bacteria. Feed them some crap.

Steve:                   Yeah. Yeah.

Matt:                     Whatever I was doing with Multi Food, you know, compared to or to copy, you know, something ’cause what you’re saying you look at the back of Multi Food you don’t see crazy levels. People have still got it in their head that more is better. That I can’t overdose on natural stuff, so I take as much of it as possible. I want more value for my money based on numbers on a label, but that is not the way it works. We need just the right amount coming through, and like you’re saying all the little bits and pieces that are in it make all the difference.

Now, what the big concern is is people are getting like greens powders, which I don’t know what the hell that is. It’s basically saw dust from the Chinese factories with green.

Jeff:                       And everything [inaudible 00:44:34].

Matt:                     Trust me, ’cause I’ve ordered some to try and test them and identify some things in them. You don’t want to see the results. Um, but what they do is for a, I can get you about a 60 day supply of a multi vitamin pre-mix. It costs $1.30. So I can smi-, mix that in with your saw dust and I can call it a greens formula [inaudible 00:44:53] and then as a multi vitamin. And then, the people read on the label, they say, “Oh, it’s got all the carrots and the alfalfas and everything like.” And then I’ll go down the nutrition panel, all these vitamins, then make the assumption that those vitamins are coming out of those plants, which is not the case. You got a synthetic blend of crap strewn in with a green colored saw dust crap. [inaudible 00:45:12] you’re taking crap.

Jeff:                       I mean the easiest way for me to understand it is like when you’re building a house, okay? Vitamins are the bricks, but then you need the mortar, you need the wire, you need the windows, you need the doors, you need the carpet, you need everything to make a house. Everyone’s grabbing bricks and going, “I’m gonna build a house out of this.” It’s just completely useless. So, yeah. Anyway. Matt, um, was there, was that it for you? ‘Cause we really need to wrap it up. We’re going a bit too long.

Matt:                     Oh, gosh. Him and his wrapping it up.

luke:                      Yeah, why can’t we just, we’ll just go for hours.

Matt:                     Yeah. We’ll just chat. That’s what we said. Who said Humpty Dumpty was an egg?

Jeff:                       Nobody.

Matt:                     Yeah, exactly. So why the hell does everyone think Humpty … Typical example of what’s wrong with the world. No one ever said Humpty Dumpty was an egg. The whole world [inaudible 00:45:52] pictures of an egg. This is exactly why I think our vitamins are rubbish and synthetics [inaudible 00:45:55].

Jeff:                       And Humpy Dumpty.

luke:                      I do have one last thing.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      If that’s alright.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

luke:                      So, you know, Steve …

Matt:                     We’ll make time for you.

luke:                      Steve, Steve, you were talking about like, most of the studies were done with synthetics …

Steve:                   Hm.

luke:                      But what people need to understand too is most of the studies are done on single nutrients and not multiple nutrients together and not how they are, they’re found in food, which totally changes everything and I, I attended a retreat in Costa Rica and Dr. Bryan Walsh was there and he was talking, he did a detox lecture and talked about toxicity and one of the interesting things was when you look at all the research, they’re only testing one thing. We don’t really yet know what happens when you combine a lot of different toxic chemicals and also what happens when it’s, when you’re taking it for a very long time. Because what they do is they give small dosages or they’ll give big dosages in a short period of time, and there’s no synergistic effect. When you start adding these things together they have a synergistic effect. They compound over time, so we don’t know. It’s the same thing with the vitamins. You can find all this research that says that a vitamin doesn’t work or it does this or it does that, but you don’t really know unless you see the vitamin with all the other stuff it’s supposed to be with like all the phytochemicals.

Matt:                     Yep. Yep. It’s a classic sign. No, even B2 for example. It’s been shown you overdose on B2 it actually creates B6, B12 folate deficiencies. So you sit there and they go do a dose and then of this study says this thing’s terrible for you.

Steve:                   Oh, it’s like [inaudible 00:47:15] increased in one study mortality.

Matt:                     Hm.

Steve:                   And it was like, oh! And there was an asterisks on the study, and it found that they were giving it with a drug that [inaudible 00:47:24] reduce the flushing[crosstalk 00:47:26]

Matt:                     Yeah. It’s the drug.

Steve:                   The drug was banned in 2013 because of toxicity.

Jeff:                       Yeah. But that’s not important.

Steve:                   (laughs)

Matt:                     (laughs)

Steve:                   It’s like, [inaudible 00:47:32] little asterisks in the study and it was published in the Journal of the American College Academy.

Matt:                     You just have to love it.

Steve:                   It’s like, ugh!

luke:                      You know what most people do, especially in the body building world, they read an abstract because they’re too lazy to read through the whole thing.

Steve:                   Oh, yeah. Yeah.

luke:                      Most of them don’t know …

Steve:                   It’s on page 10.

luke:                      Yeah.

Steve:                   It’s right in the back there.

luke:                      Most, most people, most people don’t know how to read a study anyway.

Jeff:                       I love that you mention that. Like, Matt was having a conversation, this was when he used to, I don’t know how you got into a debate with this idiot, um, and, and, uh, Matt’s going through and effectively providing, you know, peer reviewed articles to support his case. I think some of them were [inaudible 00:48:06] if I remember correctly as well too, and the guy writes back to him. He goes, “Yeah. Yeah. Well you’re just an abst-, abstract scientist.” And I thought to myself, “My gosh. Is there anybody who …”

Matt:                     So, so, let me put it straight. Someone said, “Have you got any references to support your argument?” And I said, “Yeah. I’m actually playing Lego with my kids at the moment. I can quickly send you a couple through that I can find on my phone and I’ll show you how I can find these things quite easily on my phone, and you could do this too. Um, let me give you some examples of how to quickly find free, full text articles showing these things.” He comes back, “You’re an abstract scientist, bro. You effin’ pleb.” And all that sort of stuff. It’s cool. And I was just like, and then, that’s when I actually deleted Facebook ’cause I was actually playing Lego with my boys. Much more important than dealing with somebody that’s calling me an effin’ pleb. Anyway …

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:48:50]

Matt:                     And then I said, and I said, “Hang on. What did y-,” and then I read the comments side of it. Some other people went on said, “Hey, man. Like, give him a break. He said he’s playing with his boys. He’s actually supplied you with the references that you’ve requested, and now you’re attacking him over the quality of the, the fact that, you know, he’s provided those references.” And then he said, “Well what did you expect from me?” And the bloke wrote, “I expected him to actually pretty much write an essay of what I …” He expected me to review all of those things, write it down as a, in the Facebook comments still by the way, and then say my opinion, and then cite those references. [inaudible 00:49:21] fucking playing Lego. (laughs)

Jeff:                       (laughs) Now this is a problem when you start, and, and, and in their industry as well too, it, it, it’s funny.

Matt:                     And that was about sweeteners by the way.

Jeff:                       Yeah, right.

Steve:                   Oh, jeez.

Jeff:                       Yeah. Right. It was. And you were proven right time and time and time again.

Steve:                   [crosstalk 00:49:34]

Jeff:                       But, this is the thing. Your mother ever used to say to you bad company corrupts good character? Eagles don’t hang around with turkeys. I mean the other one that’s really popular is that, what is that, lions don’t consume themselves with the opinion of sheep?

Matt:                     Yeah. And this kid said …

Jeff:                       You gotta find good people to hang out with, and people who are open to having honest discussions. Admitting, you know, when they’re wrong, and that’s a hard thing to do. That takes a lot of humility, which there is a great lack of in our industry, you know. [inaudible 00:50:01] you know what? That makes sense. Even when you approach somebody, they have little to say. Look, I appreciate where you’re coming from but, you know, that’s, that’s not what I found. Here’s what I found, you know? There’s a little bit of humility when you know you’re right as well too. They just … And that’s what stifles debate. That’s what stifles progress is that people are so, so care about their, their uh, profile. They so care about winning a Facebook argument. I love that [inaudible 00:50:22] friends and influence people. If you win an argument, you’ve lost, because the person that you’ve won against hates you for it. You’ve made them look bad in front of their peers. You know? You have to be gentle and … There’s just not enough of that anymore. There’s no, there’s no gentleman or ladies anymore. Everybody’s just out to slit everybody’s throat on Facebook. It’s a cesspool.

Matt:                     Well anyway, Jeff. We’re running out of time.

Jeff:                       (laughs) We’ve already gone way over thanks to you guys.

luke:                      Sorry.

Jeff:                       Okay. We done guys?

luke:                      I think we’re done.

Jeff:                       Last … That’s it?

luke:                      That’s it.

Jeff:                       Going. Going. Ugh.

Matt:                     Oh, let me tell you this thing.

Jeff:                       Oh, shut up Matt. Thanks to uh, Luke for coming. It was good to have you back on this show mate. Um, what are you doing next? We got a last time for your plug. Have you got anywhere where people can see you? Give you website a plug. Your Facebook page.

luke:                      So, Muscle Nerd was uh, plurals.

Jeff:                       Zz, plural.

luke:                      Zz, plural.

Jeff:                       Yep.

Matt:                     Yep.

luke:                      We’re also on Facebook at Muscle Nerds. Um, I will be speaking at the Irish Strength Institute late July at their symposium. I’ll also be speaking …

Jeff:                       Where’s that?

luke:                      That, it’s in Ireland.

Jeff:                       In Ireland.

luke:                      It’s in [Oreland 00:51:22].

Jeff:                       I didn’t hear you say that.

luke:                      Now, yeah. So it’s a Irish Strength Institute. That will be, uh, I think it’s July 25th they’re gonna have a huge symposium with a concert and all this cool shit.

Jeff:                       In like, Dublin or?

luke:                      Uh, it’s Malahide, which is right outside of Dublin. It’s a fantastic area of Ireland. Um, and then we’ve got the Swiss, uh, symposium. That’s gonna be right outside of Toronto in late October. We have um, we’re doing a course in early October in Atlanta. We’re doing one in Vancouver some time around there, but if they go to the website we post all that stuff, and if they get on our page we post all that stuff too.

Jeff:                       And what’s some of the cool things you’re gonna learn there? What, what’s the hook? What are people gonna go in and learn?

luke:                      So, basically we, we’re just, you know, this is the problem with the industry is everyone wants to teach like, advance this or the other and no one knows all the basic, fundamental, foundational stuff, right? They wanna teach that one weird trick or that one hack without actually knowing the physiology, so what we teach in our, in our foundations course, we teach just basic, basic self physiology and basic bio energetics. So how do you turn, how do you turn food into energy? Where can you find those hand brakes? How do you release those hand brakes? Um, and then things like digestion simulation, how you actually get things from the plate into the cell, and then we talk about elimination. We talk about poop a lot, and then we talk about the stress response and how stress, chronic stress, creates immune system dysregulation, intestinal permeability, um, long term inflammation and insulin resistance and things like that. And uh, yeah.

We teach people how to fix basically the metabolism. So the foundation course is more nutritional biochemistry and then we have a program design course that’s online, and then you also come to a, a seminar as well. That one we teach exercise metabolism.

Jeff:                       Hm.

luke:                      Alright. So that way what we’re going to do eventually is create one, and like a whole years worth of courses, where you do everything. Alright? And that, it’s going to we don’t, we don’t teach protocols. We teach, or methods. We just take it … ‘Cause there’s plenty of people teaching that. We don’t need to teach that. What we teach is why the methods work. What are the actions in the body so that you can pick the right protocols and methods for your clients instead of just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Jeff:                       Nine times out of ten most experts that you find out there have got good memories and have learned something by [inaudible 00:53:38]. It’s very, and this is what I said about Matt as well too, and Steve too, is that it’s very rare to actually talk to people who truly understand it. It’s not just a I can repeat the study that I’ve seen, but they actually have an understanding of what’s going on behind the body. Which obviously Luke, while you’ve become so renowned, because you understand and you can explain these things so people have a true understanding. It’s the difference between giving someone a fish or teaching them how to fish.

luke:                      Right.

Jeff:                       Something is not quite working, you’ve got the brains to work it out.

luke:                      Yeah.

Jeff:                       Not like keep banging your head. This must work. This must work.

Matt:                     You know how they say things like the youth is wasted on the young.

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:54:10]

Matt:                     It’s the same with basics. Like, it’s so important for advance people to redo that basics because when you first learn the basics you no nothing, and then you bluff your way through to pass. You, you can’t, like you say, rope learn things. You kind of remember enough to pass you exams and that sort of stuff, but until you’ve actually been out in the clinic, in the real world trying everything, the basics didn’t make sense. If you go back as an advance practitioner and therapist and go back and relearn the basics, the whole thing’s all ah ha! Like, oh! You totally forget these things or you never really had that understanding.

This is why I love chatting with Steve-o so much, because Steve-O like, understands the basics. So, now I know I don’t understand the basics very well ’cause I can’t teach them to people.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Matt:                     Steve-O understands the basics so much that where I have little levels of confusion I can go back and say, “Steve-O, what’s the …”, and he can just talk me basic biochemistry, ’cause in my training I did this chem, biochemistry and stuff like really early, and you get all this bombarded with information and none of it makes sense ’cause you don’t know how it fits and how it works and what is, but when you’re advanced you go back and redo it, but that’s one of the benefits for me. I did a advanced diploma. Originally it was only a three year dodgy course, but then they made it a bachelor of health science, so three years later, after being in a clinic, you know, for three years and working with people for three years with that base amount of information, I went back to uni to do these advance things where they just give you a refresher on the basics. I learned so much in that one more year ’cause I had a point of reference and I had something that it made sense to. I knew where these things fit all of a sudden. Changed everything. I recommend anyone that things they’re [inaudible 00:55:47] challenge yourself with the basics again and I guarantee all of a sudden you’ll be spending the whole time going ah ha!Oh! You’ll have all these light bulb moments the whole way through.

luke:                      If you ever speak to someone that’s been in the industry 20 years they, they spend this time kind of learning some basics and then they go into really advance stuff when they don’t really need it, and then they, they circle back around. They realize if I just stick to the fundamental stuff, I get results.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      And I don’t have to do anything crazy because I understand that all I’m doing is giving my body some information and asking it to adapt in a certain way. But if you don’t understand that basic level stuff, then you have no idea when you give somebody a certain training protocol, conditioning protocol, food protocol, supplement protocol, you have no idea what it’s doing and how it fits all the pieces of the puzzle fit together so [crosstalk 00:56:31]

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:56:30] the advance only stuff works if you’ve built a base foundation with the basics.

Jeff:                       Yes. Absolutely.

Matt:                     And that’s what we always talk about. The pillars, the base foundation, making sure you’re capable of inducing change for the advanced movers and shakers to come in and force things to do weird stuff.

luke:                      Exactly.

Matt:                     But you’ve gotta have a particular capacity or ability. [inaudible 00:56:47] talking about magnesium. Make sure you’re capable of switching off. It doesn’t necessarily switch you off. The basics make sure you’re capable of creating change. The advanced stuff is there just to force a fast dynamic.

luke:                      If you’re, if you’re training like, if you’re training Usain Bolt then yeah, you might need some advance stuff because 0.01% improvement could be 20 more million dollars in the bank.

Matt:                     But he would already be doing the basics as [inaudible 00:57:09].

luke:                      Yeah.

Matt:                     The basics for him is [inaudible 00:57:10]. Many go to the next level.

luke:                      But like, Joe Average and Susie Muffintop doesn’t need advance stuff. They can’t even walk and chew gum at the same time.

Matt:                     Yeah.

luke:                      They, they think that a peanut is a solid source of protein, like, there’s so much basic stuff they need to know that trainers just bypass and go straight to crazy protocols when they don’t actually, they don’t even drink enough water, eat enough protein.

Matt:                     Yeah. That’s why it’s so important to ask questions or any therapists or practitioners. They spend so much time doing that symptom picture and asking questions and don’t assume people are drinking water or eating vegetables or actual food.

Jeff:                       Hm. The handbrakes to health seminar that we did when we went around Australia, one of the most enlightening things for me personally learning is the fact that you’re right, we got into relatively advanced levels in terms of, you know, hormones in the endocrine system and, and all sorts of nutrition things and, you know, all these things definitely have their place, and they do work, and they’re important, but the handbrakes to health … The, the looking at taking away some of the basic things that people overlook all the time.

And again, even with our supplementation with, with the Gut Right, with the, the Multi Food, these are actually core foundation products that are way more important than anything else that we sell, and there’s a couple more to come as well too that Matt’s worked out. The, these four products together effectively are it, but they’re, they’re really, they’re incredibly, um, sophisticated but at the same time incredibly basic, and they’re what everybody needs and used to have in their, in their diet and in their nutrition when we used to eat well and whole balanced food. Same thing with training as well too. You can see if you skip those base foundation things, or you don’t have a grip on them, and you go down the wrong path. Unless you understand them you can’t see where you’ve gone wrong. So, I love it.

luke:                      Love it.

Jeff:                       Luke, thanks for coming onto the show.

luke:                      Thanks guys.

Matt:                     Cheer for you. [inaudible 00:58:50]

Jeff:                       Um, Matt will [crosstalk 00:58:51]

Matt:                     I think we need to wrap this up.

Jeff:                       I definitely think we will.

luke:                      This has gone way over time.

Jeff:                       Way over time.

Matt:                     Way over time.

Jeff:                       Um, Steve [inaudible 00:58:59]

Steve:                   Nah. [crosstalk 00:58:58]

Jeff:                       Get, get stuffed.

Steve:                   (laughs)

Matt:                     Oh.

Jeff:                       And we … These plebs.

Matt:                     Oh!

Jeff:                       I can’t believe I have to hang around with [crosstalk 00:59:05]

Matt:                     Effin’ terrible.

Jeff:                       Yeah. Bad company mom. Bad company corrupts good characters. These guys.

luke:                      Absolutely.

Jeff:                       Um, and we’ll be back next week.

Matt:                     Yep.

Jeff:                       Thanks guys.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:59:12]

Steve:                   See you later guys!

Jeff:                       See you.

Steve:                   Okay! What a great podcast! [inaudible 00:59:19] Part two!

Matt:                     Whoa ho ho ho!

Steve:                   You’ve gotta love it!

Matt:                     (laughs)

Steve:                   (laughs) What’s in that drink?

Matt:                     (laughs) Master segue. He’s everywhere. He’s everywhere.

Steve:                   Oh. Oh, God! Alright. Well let’s see. Here’s an email from Teddy!

Matt:                     Hey, good day Teddy.

Steve:                   Teddy. Um, it says, “Hi Matt, Jeff and Steve. Jeff’s, where’s Jeff?”

Matt:                     Um, alien abduction.

Steve:                   Oh, right. I can’t talk. Okay. Wondered where he went after that. Okay. Um. [inaudible 00:59:49] “Absolutely loving your podcast. I’ve always had interest in health, but you guys explain things in a non biased and understandable way.” Thank you! “I’m a 25 year old male around 6’2 and weighing about 90 kilos. So I train five to six days per week. Fast is mainly during weight training with a little bit of high intensity cardio on the side. I eat a fat based diet with little carbs, which I usually have at the end of the day. My meals consist mainly of fish, greens, no white, red meat, and I’ll admit I eat too many grains, but I’m not sure what carbs I should be having. Um, I try to get clean during the week, but go out for a meal on the weekend. I don’t binge, but I do enjoy occasional ice cream and pizza. I consider myself quite healthy but wasn’t, uh, so much when I was younger.

At 19 I was abusing steroids like [trim 01:00:37] and testosterone year round and not cycling at all, which resulted in gynecomastia, which is of course breast tissue, that I’ve never had removed. I was having three to six scoops of pre workout per day as well as cigarettes. Yep. Abusing sugar free soft drink and was basically eating Kohl’s home brand chicken, broccoli and rice every day. I was getting so many pimples from my steroids my doctor put me on Doxycycline, which is an antibiotic, for six months straight. Uh, also caused by the steroids I had depression and anxiety, which I was prescribed antidepressants.

I don’t have issues with that anymore and I don’t take any prescription medications. Even [inaudible 01:01:15].” Oh, wow. “I used to binge massively on high sugar and junk food every week, then I would have a, and then I would have my cheat meal. Also, I was competing body building at the time and would starve myself down for comps. For my competition I got under 1000 calories per day, and then binge for four weeks afterwards and gain 20 kilos in four weeks.” Wow. [inaudible 01:01:38] on Weight Watchers. “I was never quite the same after that, and was repeating a similar cycle up until about 80 months ago. Since then I’ve been learning about health and trying to do things the right way.

I’m in good shape now and feel my metabolism get back to normal but can’t seem to get rid of the fat on my love handles, lower back, lower stomach, lower pecks. I’m giving, I’m giving 100% but getting frustrated with these stubborn areas. I’ve previously had a lot of gut issues due to the, uh, things I mentioned before, and had really bad bloating and slow digestion. I don’t get these symptoms as often now, but when I eat carbs, especially [inaudible 01:02:14] in my, in my [inaudible 01:02:17] and my abs basically disappear for the rest of the day. As I am a male stripper and model my physique is very important, but I really, I just want to be healthy. I am very committed and am willing to give 100% to whatever protocol you can recommend.

Thanks guys. From Teddy”

Matt:                     That’s a good one, ey?

Steve:                   Yeah. That’s a goodie.

Matt:                     So, we’ll go back through it and so, um, just quickly we’re gonna’ talk about the steroids and the pimples and the depression anxiety. All of those things are caused by a thing called dihydro testosterone. So it’s dihydro testosterone that causes the roid rage and the depression and the anxiety with [inaudible 01:02:50]. Um, but it’s also um, dihydro testosterone that causes the pimples. And other people through that mechanism can get male pattern baldness if they’re unacceptable to it, um, and a lot of visceral fat. It’ll actually cause you to conserve fat around your internal organs and lower abs, so zinc and selenium is the main thing that we use for that. Now you’ve got a lot of zinc and selenium out of nuts and seeds.

Um, so you were talking before about carbs. Which carbs are best for me? What you want to do is lots of nuts and seeds, and even if you’re using like nut meals or almond meal and that sort of stuff as your flours and that sort of stuff, you get a lot more nutrients and a lot less empty calories. Also when you look for these things like nuts and seeds, get the ones with the skins on them. Um, when you’re getting your veggies we want a big variety and that sort of stuff. We want to be getting it as fresh as possible, which sucks if you’re [inaudible 01:03:39] relying on Wally’s.

Um, and the reason why is because without carbs in nature the sugar part of our carbs are normally hidden behind a wall of polyphenols, which is what we call a [modbiotic 01:03:53] compound. So what that means is if you consume these carbohydrates without the poison that’s naturally found with them, you’ve got all this food for the bugs and nothing to keep them under control. And then if you’re eating a high fat diet with that, you actually build up a lot of these highly inflammatory [inaudible 01:04:08] style bacteria that creates a lot of inflammation. Then you gotta be very careful with our calories ’cause they improve your calorie yield and slow down your metabolism. Then when you go and eat after post comp, when you cut back your calories and your carbs they don’t die, they just wait. And they just, just hide. Um, and then when you come back post comp and put your carbs back in they all thrive and that’s how you get that weight gain.

Steve:                   Hm.

Matt:                     Um, and so the first thing that I’d actually give Teddy, especially considering it does sound to me, I mean that you may probably need a little bit more, you know, good quality fruit and veg and nuts and seeds and that sort of stuff into that diet, and Gut Right’s a good way of cheating, um, because the, even if you do everything right and go buy organic and just eat that way all the time, there’s no guarantee that these [modbiotic 01:04:53] polyphenols are there. So we give you the Gut Rights the and no matter what you’re doing you can just spike up your diet with extra of these polyphenols to keep the gut bugs under control.

Steve:                   Hm.

Matt:                     And then what I’d also recommend we do is something. We give you a heap of zinc and selenium. Um, and load it up that way. So, with the zinc and selenium, again, Multi Food. And the funny thing is, for someone that, anyone really that’s looking to just improving their nutritional profile, improving their diet, the world’s greatest, and I’m probably maybe a little bit biased in that little statement I just said then. The world’s greatest.

Steve:                   No. It’s alright.

Matt:                     The world’s greatest thing you can do would be to combine Multi Food and Gut Right. Because what you’re getting is you’re gonna’ get all the nutrients out of the plant, fruit and vegetables that you’re not eating, and even if you are eating them [inaudible 01:05:36] bloody things.

Steve:                   That’s right.

Matt:                     And then the Multi Food’s gonna cover all your basic nutrients that you require. So between the two you’ve got a standardized form of nutrients, plus the standardized load of plant based polyphenols that’ll keep your gut under control. Between those two things you should be able to reset your stomach. I would cheat a little bit though. Because when your gut gets right out of back a lot of these [inaudible 01:05:56] are called [inaudible 01:05:59] and they can contribute to a thing called the [inaudible 01:06:02], which is basically as your body is trying to detoxify estrogen the little buggers feed on it and put it back in, and that gives you love handles.

Steve:                   Hm.

Matt:                     So, I’d do Gut Right. I’d do the Multi Food, and I’d probably spike it up with some um, Block E3. Just to cheat on the love handles and get rid of them since you …

Steve:                   Yeah. [crosstalk 01:06:18]

Matt:                     You know, you’re a, you do that for a job man. Butter up. Use the Block E3. It’ll be worth it.

Steve:                   That’s great. And you mention the zinc and selenium he needs, which he obviously does. Um, so, so, you wouldn’t put T432 in there [crosstalk 01:06:29]

Matt:                     Well you’ve got some in the Multi Food. You’ve got the Gut Right. When he starts loading up on nuts and seeds and that sort of stuff.

Steve:                   Mk.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   Good.

Matt:                     Yeah. I mean you could put this in MST and [inaudible 01:06:38].

Steve:                   Oh, yeah.

Matt:                     I’m pretty tight. You know I’m tight as a fisher’s ass. You could put the T432 actually would be better. Because the T432 is basically iodine, zinc, selenium, [inaudible 01:06:48] with a lot of these plant polyphenols that specifically stimulate metabolism.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     So, yeah. That’ll do it. Multi, [inaudible 01:06:53]. So we go Multi Food, Gut Right, T432 Plus.

Steve:                   Yup.

Matt:                     Butter up.

Steve:                   Good stuff.

Matt:                     Alright.

Steve:                   Excellent. Well done. Well thanks for that.

Matt:                     No. No. Thank you.

Steve:                   Thank you. [inaudible 01:07:05] Alright. Next question’s from Sally.

Matt:                     Hey Sally.

Steve:                   “Um, hi guys. Absolutely in love with Steve. I’m sorry. You’re podcast.”

Matt:                     (laughs)

Steve:                   “You’ve completely transformed me, uh, the way I think about things now. Onto the problem. I am 27 and recently diagnosed with Meniere’s disease. It’s an inner ear problem, or too much fluid in the ear.” Oh, God. “Which causes vertigo, brain fog, nausea, headaches, tinnitus, etc. It came about about um, after I returned from a trip from Bali. Before I left I remember getting water in my ear after diving into the ocean, and I don’t recall it ever coming out. My ENT, which is ear, nose and throat specialist, wasn’t too interested in that piece of information, but I think it was contributed.”

Matt:                     Of course it is.

Steve:                   (laughs)

Matt:                     Fluid in your ear. You’re stuck with fluid in your ear.

Steve:                   Yeah. And he’s an ear, nose and throat specialist. [inaudible 01:07:49] Anyway, “While [inaudible 01:07:52] my partner and I got sick with uh,” oh, well hang on. Hang on. What’s this. Uh.

Matt:                     Shigella.

Steve:                   Shigella. Yeah. “Determined by [inaudible 01:07:59] when I returned to Sydney.” Okay. “However, I had additional symptoms to just your standard pooing, spewing stomach cramps which I found strange. On the flight home I went to the doctor. I went and saw this doctor around a week after I returned because I felt like I had chronic fatigue or something. I was unable to stand for long and my brain was so foggy. I felt like I was floating in another world.” Wow. “He told me to do a nasal cleanse and unblock the ear, and that was it. Fast forward two or three months still suffering vertigo, brain fog and constant headaches everyday.” Wow.

Matt:                     Poor thing. That’s horrible.

Steve:                   Eesh. “While some weeks were better than others, after an episode of almost collapsing I realized I might have something seriously wrong. My doctor referred me to get an MRI as I crashed a moped in Bali the night before I started feeling sick. The MRI came back normal, thankfully, and the ENT detected low tone deafness and diagnosed me with Meniere’s disease. He told me that the treatment was to cut salt from my diet to help with the vertigo and prescribed a diuretic. Um, I don’t take diuretic as I didn’t, as I did research and read that it can strip potassium from the fluid and cause dehydration depending on which it was.” It’s usually [inaudible 01:09:14]

“Um, I came across an article that talked about a possible link between candida and Meniere’s and decided to explore this uh, as I now, as I know I have struggled with this all of my life. About four to five years ago I battled with numerous thrush outbacks followed by UTIs followed by thrush again. Not one doctor really tried to help me with this. They ran pap smear tests and told me to have a thrush tablet or the antibiotic which [inaudible 01:09:38] the cycle.” Wow.

“Prior to seven years ago, uh, this, I did some silly dieting for a comp which I ended up pulling out of because of my health. Um, when I supplement with tribulus, which is an herb, I [inaudible 01:09:51] my trainer and lost my period for around two years.” Wow.

“Around one and a half years ago I had a random outbreak of what was diagnosed with perioral dermatitis. It was painful and hideous and my, um, many months hidden in my room. I did extensive research that concluded that it was linked to candida. I was given a steroid cream which made it worse and then antibiotics, which I was super worried about due to thrush, but worked after the long six week course. Now I use zinc cream whenever I feel an outbreak coming on, which [inaudible 01:10:23] hasn’t occurred uh, as I’ve read it tends to pop up, um, back up for most women.” Last bit.

“More recently I started taking Multi Food [inaudible 01:10:35] prime as I suspected estrogen dominance, however my hormones went crazy on it. I started getting period symptoms way before period was due. So I’m thinking maybe I should use Venus?” Question mark. “Anyway, I’m buying Gut Right this afternoon in an attempt to fix my candida problem.” Good stuff. “But basically I am wondering if you think it could be linked to Meniere’s or [inaudible 01:10:53] any other situation that causes Meniere’s. Thank you very much.”

Matt:                     Oh, it’s a tricky one.

Steve:                   Whoa!

Matt:                     These are the, this is a typical case though.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Because people have very, all sorts of variables. Like a lot of the time we go [inaudible 01:11:07] ’cause we always say well, hasn’t been the same since and [inaudible 01:11:09] person so many hasn’t been the same since in this one case.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     Let’s take a step back and just have a look at these things because I’m also a big believer in people’s intuition. I like, and I’m sounding funny ’cause I’m very science-y with the way I break shit apart.

Steve:                   Yeah. Yeah.

Matt:                     And rip things apart, but initially I am more happy to be guided by intuition. Funny thing is when you’re reading and you mentioned candida and Meniere’s I’m like that’s a bit of a link. But when you see this sort of history in that, it’s like that’s a bit weird, but what I noticed in my clinic a lot with [inaudible 01:11:41] um, if it is contributing to Meniere’s you would not be surprised, but you will find a constant congestion in the sinus.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     ‘Cause you can get fungal, um, congestion. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the candida that associate with thrush, but if you’re predisposed to that you can have all sorts of fungus and mold growing into those sort of areas. What I want to say here is if you get Meniere’s contributes, I’m sorry if you got candida contribute to Meniere’s syndrome contributing to congestion in the inner ear, it’ll be by blocking the eustachian tubes which connects the sinuses through to your throat. So you’ll find that you’ll have constant sinus congestion and typical sin-, um, symptoms of sinus congestion linked with Meniere’s is if you’ve been [inaudible 01:12:23] forward you’ll actually feel like water going into your ears. You’ll actually get physical swishing around. What bugs me about Meniere’s they always do the diuretics because there is a link with blood pressure to it.

Steve:                   Yes. There is.

Matt:                     But the problem with that is is what actually happens is the blood pressure, um, results in calcification of the vestibular system. So it’s actually calcium that causes Meniere’s.

Steve:                   Yeah [inaudible 01:12:43]

Matt:                     So the more, the more you deplete the sodium, the more exaggerated the calcium becomes, and if you don’t have magnesium offsetting the calcium, then you’ll get calcification to these things. So the way I used to treat Meniere’s syndrome in my clinic was with frequency specific micro current. So we had Gary Griffin on the podcast the other day. He’s probably Australia’s most … He does more to that machine than anyone. Um, you could go to Gary and he could do a vestibular protocol to dissolve the calcium [inaudible 01:13:10] in the inner ear. I used to do that a lot. Um, caraway seeds. Chew on caraway seeds all day. It’s a great old home remedy. The [inaudible 01:13:17] medicine teaches you this. It tastes nice. Uh, chew on the caraway seeds. They help to reduce the fluid pressure in your inner ear.

Steve:                   Oh, okay.

Matt:                     That’s one of my secret recipes for um, sea sickness and travel sickness and all that sort of stuff.

Steve:                   Interesting.

Matt:                     Caraway seeds is excellent for that. So call Gary Griffin. Look at caraway seeds. I would, will send you out some [inaudible 01:13:36] ST.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     ‘Cause I want the magnesium levels up because um, think about this. Any time you get stuck in something it may be a magnesium deficiency. Now I know tinnitus, Meniere’s, a lot of those other symptoms of anxiety, and what happens with Meniere’s syndrome too, um, you get really clumsy in the dark. You can actually wake up with panic attacks.

Steve:                   Right.

Matt:                     Because you, and you get, you’re start to screw up with like, society because you can’t go into crowds. You can’t travel very well. Because what happens is your brain gets signals from your eyes, your ears and your ankles to tell you are, to tell your brain where you are in space and time. And the problem is is in situation when your feet aren’t on the ground, and even [inaudible 01:14:17] we wear shoes, so it’s very rarely is on the ground, but in those situations where your ankles can’t give signals to your brain to say whether we’re flat, walking, falling, or laying, not even on our feet.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     You know. Um, with the eyes, if the eyes can’t find a point of reference like the horizon. For example, if you’re asleep or if you’ve got your eyes shut of it’s dark, or if you’re in a shopping center or in a car or on a boat where the horizon keeps moving, then your brain freaks out ’cause you’re not getting proper signals from your ear. And then all of a sudden you’re getting panic attacks, you get fear, you get stuck in the sympathetic nervous system. Short term memory can’t work. Concentration [inaudible 01:14:51] sleep. Digestion. That’s why it causes all these messed up symptoms and a constant degree of stress, because if your body, if your brain doesn’t know where you are in space and time, forget about [inaudible 01:15:03] and bills and things like that. Your, your body is in survival mode. ‘Cause it doesn’t know honestly if you’re falling.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     You know. So [inaudible 01:15:12] stuck that way. So we gotta break that cycle. [inaudible 01:15:13] ST’s a good way to break that cycle.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     So is going to see Gary with the micro current machine. It’ll definitely do it. Um, but yes. Candida can contribute to Meniere’s.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     Especially if you’re getting the perioral dermatitis.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Especially if you’ve had the, um, recurrent thrush and never, ever take antibiotics to fix thrush, ’cause it causes thrush.

Steve:                   ‘Cause the antibodies kill bacteria.

Matt:                     Yeah. And allows the fungus to overgrow. And most, I assume the people that get thrush it’s because of antibodies and the pill combination, you know.

Steve:                   Yeah. Easily. Yeah.

Matt:                     Funny that pill will [inaudible 01:15:43]. Oh, tribulus just quickly let me say this. Women have ovaries, and blokes have nuts or test, what do we call testicles.

Steve:                   Can we call them nuts on the podcast?

Matt:                     Yeah. Testicles. Gonads. So oh, external gonads make testosterone and sperm. Women make their internal gonads, or ovaries will use the same signals from the brain. Follicle stimulating hormone that we use to make testosterone and sperm, they’ll make an egg and estrogen. So when you give tribulus to a woman it does the opposite to what happens in a man.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     Tribulus is used for menopausal hot flashing and estrogen um, deficiency in women. In women it makes estrogen. In men it builds testosterone ’cause we have nuts and women have ovaries.

Steve:                   I think that’s the problem with uh, trainers who aren’t trained in this area [crosstalk 01:16:32]

Matt:                     And they go, “Will this work for me?”

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     If it didn’t work for you then you’re lying about what you eat.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     (laughs) Yeah. So then you get stuffed up with massive amounts of estrogen that you can’t clear away, but I would, and this is one of the reasons why you can’t clear it away. Every time your body tries to clear it away, it puts it into your poo. If you’ve got candida, clostridiums, [inaudible 01:16:51] are all part of what we call the [inaudible 01:16:52], that will feed on that estrogen and put it back in and keep you estrogen dominant.

Steve:                   [crosstalk 01:16:59]

Matt:                     So a lot of this stuff is going back to a potential candida issue.

Steve:                   Yeah. I think it’s a very gut related issue.

Matt:                     So, before we go to [inaudible 01:17:05] stuff, eat your caraway seeds. They can’t be any harm.

Steve:                   No.

Matt:                     Take [inaudible 01:17:08] ST and we’ll send you um, Gut Right.

Steve:                   Yep.

Matt:                     As well. [Arell 01:17:13] [Azrell 01:17:14] Did you hear that?

Steve:                   [Azrell 01:17:16]

Matt:                     Um, and I know, course there’s something else I want to do, which is Multi Food.

Steve:                   Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Matt:                     The reason why is because, you know the symptoms of B3 deficiency. Hey.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Perioral dermatitis.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     Brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, dizziness. There’s a lot of symptoms running through here of a straight out boring ass vitamin B3 deficiency. So we can send you some Multi Food. If it’s a B3 deficiency you’ll top it up in a couple of days and you’ll feel better.

Steve:                   Yes.

Matt:                     And then you can send the rest of the stuff back.

Steve:                   Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Matt:                     (laughs) Nah. Give it to your friends. No, and so yeah. Multi Food.

Steve:                   Yep.

Matt:                     Gut Right.

Steve:                   Yep.

Matt:                     And [inaudible 01:17:59]

Steve:                   [inaudible 01:17:59]

Matt:                     Can you think of anything else? I mean there’s probably a shit load more.

Steve:                   Oh, no. The Gut Right was the one that was, eesh, you know with me was, was huge, you know.

Matt:                     Hm.

Steve:                   Um, but, but no. I think we’ve covered it.

Matt:                     That’ll do.

Steve:                   I think she’s, she’s gonna be set.

Matt:                     Gotta get that, that, gotta get that calcium out of the inner ear. Otherwise [inaudible 01:18:16] you’re not even inside the ear. They got all these recep-, so you’re in the water parts of the ear, and you know this. I’m telling the other people and just looking at you ’cause otherwise I’ll look at the camera and feel weird.

Steve:                   Yeah. Weird.

Matt:                     So, you know like in the Christmas snow cones sort of things. So in side of it you’ve got all the snow flakes. So we’ve got those snow flake things inside the fluid parts of our ear, so when we swish they swish, and then our receptors pick up on those things, heh, moving around, and then it tells you if you’re moving or not, you know?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     So it uses those swishy things. With Meniere’s what actually happens is there’s one big messed up [inaudible 01:18:47] snowflake in there. So what’s happened a whole heap of these things and you shed off a big layer of calcium off the outer and you get this big chunk.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     So you swing your head and all a sudden this big chunk goes and your body goes oh, my gosh! They’re falling over this way. Quickly. Fix them up.

Steve:                   Hm.

Matt:                     So you get all that weird ass dizzy and everything. The way to tell which ear it is or if it’s both ears, you stand up, um, put both feet on the ground, and shut your eye, or have someone with you so [inaudible 01:19:09]

Steve:                   Yes. Yes.

Matt:                     Have someone with their arms out ready to catch you or surround yourself with mattresses and shit. And then you stand there and try to shut your eyes and stand still. You’ll kind of fall always to the side that’s the dodgy ear. And then what I’ll get you do is lift one leg off the ground, shut your eyes and see if you can just stand there, but you’ll fall, and you’ll always fall the same side, and that’s the dodgy ear side. The other way of doing is is, um, eye tracking.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     You know, you get people to hold their finger in front of the eye and move it and you watch their eyes to see if it can follow it without having to do this weird catch up.

Steve:                   Yeah. [inaudible 01:19:38]

Matt:                     I stopped doing that in my clinic because for the life of me I can’t stop looking at my own finger. I keep forgetting to look at their eyes. I’ll put this finger and go, “Now watch my finger.” And then I’m watching my own finger instead of watching their eyes.

Steve:                   You tell yourself to watch your own finger.

Matt:                     Yeah. So then I’m like I’m diagnosing myself with vestibular injuries. Oh, that made me dizzy. How ’bout you? (laughs) But yeah. So, I don’t [inaudible 01:19:56]. So your ear’s like a snow Christmas cone thing.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     So …

Steve:                   Cool. [inaudible 01:20:02] So, I mean, I, I think those three products are great and um, yeah. I think she’ll be great.

Matt:                     She’ll be fine. [inaudible 01:20:09] like I said, no promises and insert all the disclaimers.

Steve:                   Yep.

Matt:                     But um, you’ll be fine. (laughs)

Steve:                   (laughs)

Matt:                     Go see Gary and under his insurance you’ll be fine.

Steve:                   Excellent. Yeah. (laughs) Well that’s it. That’s absolutely it. We’re at no more.

Matt:                     Well.

Steve:                   The whole, whole [inaudible 01:20:25] dramatic.

Matt:                     Yeah. [inaudible 01:20:28] felt obligated.

Steve:                   Whew. [inaudible 01:20:32]

Matt:                     (laughs) Alright. Thank you.

Steve:                   Alright. Have a good one. See you guys. Bye.

Announcer:        Thanks for listening and remember – question everything. Well, except for what we say.