ATP Science – Ep 100 – DOMS


In today’s podcast Matt, Steve and I discuss Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness, also known as DOMS.  We discuss the good, the bad and the ugly about DOMS and its relationship with building Muscle and how Estrogen effects it.


  • Gut Issues [00:57:00]
    • MTHFR Polymorphism & Removing the last stubborn FAT [01:07:08]
  • Artificial Sweeteners [01:17:10]
  • Yellow, Cold and Numb Hands [01:26:10]

**This information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition and is for information purposes only.  Please discuss any information in this podcast with your health care professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle**


You’re with your hosts Matt, Jeff and Steve.

Matt:  Woohoo.

Jeff: How are you going, guys?

Steve: Great.

Matt:  Excellent.

Jeff: Excellent.  Today we’re talking about DOMS. Now, this is Episode 100.

Steve:  Yay.

Jeff: But, it’s actually not.

Matt: Oh?

Jeff: We’ve missed and episode somewhere.

Matt:  Struth.

Jeff: Now, there was that crap episode that I did where I was falling asleep one time because I wasn’t feeling particularly well, that we cut, but I thought we re did that episode.  So, somewhere there’s a missing episode.

Matt:  Wow.  This could be one of the greatest mysteries of the universe.

Jeff: (laughs) Absolutely.

Matt: We should call it Pluto.

Jeff: (laughs) But, for now we’re up to Episode 100 and we’re talking about DOMS.

Steve: DOMS, cool.

Jeff: Most people think they know all that there is to know about DOMS.

Matt:  I thought I did.

Jeff: So did I.  If you lift weights you get sore, and as the old saying goes, “No pain, no gain.”

Steve: Yeah.

Jeff: But, you guys have looked a lot into DOMS, the significance, the importance of it, how it works.

Matt: What it is.

Jeff: So Matt, do you want to start off?  What is DOMS?  For the uneducated, and we’ll go from there.

Matt:  The word DOMS stands for Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness.  Typically it’s the pain we feel 24 to 72 hours after training, peaking at about 48 hours, so it’s the soreness.  DOMS is the thing when you’re trying to find a toilet two days after leg day.

Jeff: Yes.

Matt:  Typically what happens with DOMS is there is a lot of soreness, you lose function and form and tone, you lose the ability to walk, especially downhill, and there’s a lot of swelling and oedema as well.

Jeff: A funny thing, a friend of mine we train legs together and next door at the gym at Springwood here there’s a set of stairs that you go down, and he was a spritely young fellow, so he’d jump down the flight of stairs, it was only four or five steps.


After leg day, he forgot that he’d done leg day and he jumped and he collapsed in a crumpled heap down the bottom because he just had no coordination, no ability to be able to stand up and absorb the impact.

Matt: I was in one gym once when they had one of those buttons next to the toilet that says, “In case of emergency push this button for assistance.”

Jeff: What?

Matt:  I seriously was tempted to call that thing to get to the toilet, (laughs) someone to just support me while I bend my knees and get my bottom to the toilet. (laughs)

Jeff: Was there another one that had the button for wipers?


Matt:  I wish.  No, that’s the Qantas lounge.

Steve: Oh goodness.  Really?

Matt: Well, I asked for it.

Steve: You guys are talking about this, I did legs this morning so I might have something to look forward tomorrow, haven’t I?

Matt:  Well, maybe the day after, although it depends on your Estrogen levels, your Inflammatory Mediators.  What we found out is it’s not likely to be proportional to how much Lactic Acid you built up today. (laughs)

Steve: Matt, when I was taught this 50 million years ago I thought it was Lactic Acid.  Isn’t DOMS just Lactic Acid?

Matt:  That’s what we were taught, that Metabolic Waste accumulates, that Metabolic Waste itself lingers causing Pain, interfering with Nerve Function, but also damaging Cellular Structures that are typically oily structures, and Cell Walls, and that leads to Inflammation, and all that leads to the accumulation of Inflammatory Mediators, Waste, that causes the Swelling and the Pain associated with DOMS, and that made sense.

Steve: Yeah, it makes sense.

Matt: Which is probably why we didn’t really go back and question it.  The thing that made me question it is why the bloody hell aren’t my Acidity Buffers and why the hell aren’t my Electrolytes and all those sorts of things capable of buffering the Acid adequately enough to prevent my DOMS?

Steve: Yeah.

Matt:  And, when they weren’t, and when they weren’t in my customers and clients I started looking going, “Well, what the bloody hell is DOMS if this Acid is gone?”  Then we started researching with Stevo and we saw that all that Lactic Acid that’s made, all that waste that’s made, is cleared away within the first 12 hours, it’s not even there when the DOMS start.

Steve: Yeah.

Jeff: in my retail store when people used to come in, and this was my very basic approach, non-scientific, but what you’d learnt through Rope, and what you’d heard from personal planners and all the rest of it, was that DOMS was a micro tearing of the Muscle fibre, and obviously that brought about a little bit of pain, and certainly with regards to endurance type exercises, especially if somebody wasn’t fit.  That was more of your Lactic Acid that would pool and sit, but it was the actual breaking down of the Muscle fibre, which would then be, effectively, welded and bond and get bigger.  That’s about as deep as it went.

Matt:  Well, let’s just cut to the chase a little bit, and we’ll cut out one big part that we thought was causing DOMS, which was the Muscle – it’s not the Muscle.

Steve: Not the Muscle.

Jeff: It’s not the Muscle?

Matt: It shouldn’t be called DOMS.  Stevo just coined a new term, DOFS, it’s the Fascia, it’s actually the Fascia.


Jeff: It’s the Fascia?

Matt: Yeah.  All the studies are now showing that if they try to recreate the pain it can’t be recreated through Muscle, they can’t find the parts of the Muscle that create the pain, but they can find it in the Fascia, and even when you touch it – when you’ve got sore Muscles and some arsehole wants to poke it just to be funny, they’re poking onto trigger points in the Fascia, they’re hitting the Fascia, and that’s what’s sore, not your Muscle.

Jeff: So, the Fascia is the membrane, if you like, that sits –

Matt: The sock.

Jeff: The sock, the sausage skin, it’s the skin on the sausage.

Matt: Yeah.  It’s got a lot of functions:  it’s actually involved in the contraction itself, so 30% of the power of your Muscle contraction comes from the Fascia, 30% of the force of the contraction, the squeezing comes from the Fascia.  As part of an engorgement your Muscle diameter increases and the Fascia has to be able to swell up to 50% of its diameter and actually hold this swollen Muscle.

Actually, let me read this section here – I don’t often read stuff straight from a paper, but this was from a paper published in 1910, and we’re just getting back to it now.

Steve: Yay.

Jeff: It goes back to Atlas days and all the rest of it, doesn’t it?

Steve: There’s nothing like the latest research.

Matt:  I know.  Well, the funny thing is, I think we need to get back to this, because I think it got published and then we kind of moved on.  But if you read this it says,

“The Fascia gives one of, if not the greatest problems to solve, as to the part it takes in life and death.  It belts each Muscle, vein, nerve and organs of the body.  It is almost a network of nerves, cells and tubes running to and from them, it is crossed and filled, with no doubt, millions of nerve centres and fibres to carry on the work of secreting and excreting fluid vital and destructive.  By its action, we live and by its failure we shrink or swell and die.

Each Muscle plays its part in active life, each fibre of all Muscle owes its pliability to that yielding septum washer that gives all Muscles help to glide over and around all adjacent Muscles and ligaments without friction or jar.  It not only lubricates the fibres but gives nourishment to all parts of the body.  It’s nerves are so abundant that no atom of flesh fails to get nerve and fluid supply there from.”

Jeff: Wow.

Matt:  It’s fascinating.  So, basically, what it was saying is, every part of our body is encased and controlled and separated and divided by the Fascia, but we’ve only ever looked at it as a form of architecture rather than a functioning, very important controlling network within the body.

Jeff: The description of calling it just the skin on the sausage is then horribly inept.

Steve: (laughs)

Matt: It is, it is, like your sausage.

Steve: Agh.


Jeff: You’re not the first person to notice, Matt.  Thanks for saying that on the end.


Matt: (laughs) I don’t control the image.


I don’t control the editing.

Jeff: (laughs)

Matt:  Anyway.  That was funny, though.

Jeff: It is funny because it’s true.

Matt: It’s funny because it’s true.

Jeff: Well, it doesn’t look like a rat’s got a hold of it like yours.


Matt: What are we talking about?  We didn’t want to bring up the cat scratchy poem.

Now, listen here, we’re talking about Fascia.  Stop talking about yourself.

Jeff: Right.

Matt:  Now, what the fuck?

Jeff: We were talking about the –

Matt: So, the importance of the Fascia is extremely important because it performs so many functions that we weren’t aware of.  But, inside the Fascia, predominantly, we have Cells called Fibroblasts, and they are very important when we’re looking at DOMS and we’re looking at Fascia and Collagen.  The reason why I wanted to talk about that is it shows how the body is covered and full of it, and we need to understand that our body doesn’t – we don’t have specialists working within our body, it’s a holistic whole system.

So, if I get a part of my body saying, “Change Collagen here,” then it will change Collagen everywhere.  So, we have these major Collagen issues that can change.  Let’s have a look at the Menstrual Cycle, for example; it’s all  about building Collagen and breaking down Collagen.  So, women, with their Menstrual Cycle, as they’re building up their period, so in the first half of their cycle there is a lot of Estrogen and that Estrogen builds Collagen.  Then, what happens is that Collagen holds onto Endometrial Tissue, but it also increases Collagen everywhere all over their body, such as controlling Cellulite, Derma Collagen, Lips, Cheeks, all those Collagens will change in response to Menstrual Cycles.

Steve had some interesting facts.  What were you saying about the feet?

Steve: Yeah.  There was a paper published in 2015 that showed that women’s feet actually lengthen when they’re Estrogen levels increase and their feet shrink during Menstruation when their Estrogen levels are very low, and that’s because of the Fascia in the foot.  Now, a lot of people know this, they get Fasciitis in the foot, the runners, the idiots like me that run kilometres on end, and that’s an interesting scenario to show that Estrogen actually causes the Fascia to become very flexible.

Here’s a question for the audience; are women typically more flexible than men or not?

Matt:  Well, they can’t answer you Steve.

Steve: They can’t answer us, you’re right

Matt:  But, I’m pretty sure they all said, “Yeah.  You should see my chick, legs over her head.”

Steve: Agh!

Matt: No, they can do that.  We were talking about that.

Jeff: They can.

Steve: Right.  I thought you were being –

Matt: I wasn’t.  Why do you always think I’m being like that?

Jeff: Because you normally are.

Matt:  Yeah, I know.  But, it’s fascinating.  So, what we’re saying, as part of a monthly cycle in women where their Estrogen fluctuates significantly, when the Estrogen is low their Collagen is breaking down and shedding Endometrial Tissue, or breaking down and creating Cellulite, or breaking down and shrinking their feet and that sort of stuff, and reducing their flexibility.  When their Estrogen is high they get flexible Collagen, they get lots of plump dermal Collagen, and they’re building enough Collagen to actually hold a whole Endometrial layer that will be shed later.


The reason why I’m talking about women and their Menstrual Cycle when we’re talking about DOMS is women don’t get DOMS as much as men.  So, women don’t experience DOMS anywhere near as much as men, but an interesting fact is, when they’ve got their period they do.  So, when women have their period, or when they’re pre-menstrual, and when they get their period is when the Estrogen is lowest and they get the same amount of DOMS as men do.

Jeff: Is that because the Estrogen acts as an Anti-Inflammatory or is it because there’s more Testosterone so it’s improving the damage on the Fascia which is creating more –

Matt: Well, this is what we’re working out and what is quite amazing about it.  So, if we go back and have a look at what actually DOMS is; so DOMS is when the Fascia gets over stretched.  In a lot of the studies you’ll see, if you look at a study for DOMS they always do downhill running, or downhill stuff, because you actually get more DOMS in the stretched Muscle.

Jeff: And, they’re the long Muscles too, like your Quads and –

Matt:  Well, it’s hard to stretch a shoulder, it’s really hard to stretch a Delt’, but it’s very easy to stretch your Glutes and Hammies as part of squats and that sort of stuff.  So, what you’ll find is some Muscles stretch easier and they’re the ones that get more DOMS.  You can stretch your Pecks and you can stretch your Biceps and that as well, and they get a lot more DOMS than the other parts of the body.

Steve: Yeah, because the Fascia is stretched.  That’s why squats are bad, because if you put a heap of weight on your shoulders, like I had this morning, and then I squatted down, the weight pushed me down even further than I would naturally squat, which is the idea, to get a deep squat, but it stretches the Fascia and so tomorrow I’m going to have trouble going to the toilet, and I’m looking forward to that, I can’t wait.

Jeff: What you need to do, Steve, they’ve got these little wipes you can use, it can make it a lot easier, and Matt said he used to use a toilet brush.

Matt:  Oh no, I’ve gone back to toilet paper.  It hurt.

Jeff: That sounds rough, mate, that toilet brush.

Matt: (laughs)

Steve: But, my partner is a nurse so she can help me with that, that’s part of her job to help people.

Jeff: Oh man, and here I am –

Matt:  Wiping yourself.

Steve: Wiping your own bum?  What are you doing that for?

Jeff: She wipes everybody else’s at work, but she won’t wipe people’s at home, that’s disgusting.

Steve: Terrible, isn’t it?

Matt: And, here I am wanting a back scratcher.

Jeff: But, what I was going to say is, in terms of some old ideology, in terms of training as well, and I can’t remember where this came from, but their idea was, after you’d finish a set, so for example, on Biceps you would take that weight and you would hold it down with the Muscle in a stretched position and hold that for, effectively, as long as you could, maybe it was 20 seconds or 30 seconds or what have you.  Now, I started doing that, and I’m not a serious trainer by any stretch, even when I was in my best shape, but the pain from that was actually quite intense, and the idea was that it was, after you’ve damaged the Muscle – I don’t know about the Fascia, but this makes more sense now – after you’ve damaged the Muscle and the Fascia that you’re then stretching it to help to get that last little bit of tearing.

Matt: This is what we talked about, and these were the protocols we designed with Prototype, remember?

Jeff: Yeah.


Matt:  We worked really hard at that, and the whole concept was, for maximal Muscle Hypertrophy you want to stimulate maximal satellite Cell activity to stimulate the Protein Synthesis.  What happens in the Fascia, as you get Vasodilation that mimics injury straight away, so Vasodilation is part injury, the Swelling.  So, Vasodilation, and then you get the engorgement of the Blood and the Muscles.  As the Muscle swells, the Fascia stretches wide as well as long.  So, the Fascia as it stretches wide it shortens the Muscle and that makes the Fascia more permeable, as you can imagine, as it spreads out between the Cells there is a bigger gap.  So, the Fascia becomes more permeable and then as you stretch it lengthways as well, what you’re doing is you’re actually mimicking a stretching straining injury, and that triggers an exaggerated Inflammatory process, but it triggers exaggerated satellite Cell migration to do the Hypertrophy.

When we talked about that originally and designed those booty protocols around that, we did not even understand the role of Phytoecdysterone and the Estrogen in that.  Because, what we’re finding happening as part of the Inflammatory process of the DOMS is we’re getting a lot of Inflammatory Mediators coming out, but it’s all coming out of the Fascia, it’s not in the Muscle.  So, we get Prostaglandin E2, we get  Bradykinin, and other weird things like Histamine are more of a driving factor to DOMS than the Acids and all the things that we used to think.

Steve: We’re going to quote a study now on Histamine; there was a study done where people took an Antihistamine, and it reduced the DOMS.

Jeff: Wow!

Steve: So, that shows you that Histamine has a great role to play.  Now, if you’re all thinking, “Let’s go and do that,” remember, there are a lot of different classes of Antihistamines, some that get into the Brain and some that don’t.  The old ones get into the Brain, and they’re now used as sleeping tablets, or ADHD treatments, because they numb you down and put you to sleep, so that can be useful.  But, the newer class ones like Claratyne and those ones don’t cross the blood/brain barrier and don’t get you as tired, and they’re the ones that are used to reduce the pain associated with Histamine induced DOMS.

Jeff: Out of curiosity, does that mean that if you were to reduce the pain, the DOMS side effect, that you’d also reduce the result?

Steve: Yeah, because Histamine is a vasodilator, so if you’re taking an Antihistamine it constricts the blood vessels, which means you don’t get as much blood flow to that area.  So, it can be problematic for recovery, so I don’t advise you do it.

Matt:  Well, they’ve also done studies with COX-2 inhibitors and shown less Muscle Hypertrophy if you’re preloaded with COX-2 inhibitors.  So, if you inhibit the Inflammation then you get less Muscle Hypertrophy.

They used those studies to try to prove the Anabolic effects of Arachidonic Acid.

Steve: Mm.

Matt:  Arachidonic Acid is an Inflammatory oil found in red meats and all sorts of stuff that we tell people to avoid for Heart Disease, Cancer and Diabetes.


But, some people supplement with it to load up their Inflammatory Essential Fatty Acids, and that increases Prostaglandin E2, and that is one of the main activators of the Inflammatory processes.  When they blocked that pathway through COX-2 inhibitors they got less growth.  So, if you’re inhibiting this damage, or if you’re inhibiting the degree of Inflammation then you’re definitely inhibiting the amount of growth you get.

But, it’s also to the point that, if you’ve got a lot of Inflammation can you train, and can you train effectively?  So, it’s trying to find the balance.

Now, what is interesting as well, again with these Inflammatory Mediators, the main ones we’re talking about, the Prostaglandin Pathways, Bradykinin Migration and even things like Histamine.  To know if you’ve got Histamine loading up in your Muscles – have you ever had the itch?  You know when you get the swelling and the DOMS and your legs will actually itch when you’re trying to go for a walk and that stuff, it’s a classic sign with Histamine.  So, if you’ve got an infiltration of Histamine you’ll get this weird prickle feeling when you’re trying to walk it out.

Jeff: Actually, I got that when I used to run from time to time, especially if I hadn’t run for a time, I would get that real – especially on the inside of the thighs.

Matt: You know, Stevo was saying, Histamine makes you alert, and when you block Histamine it makes you sleepy.  So, what happens is, if we’re Tired and if we’re under Stress, our Sympathetic Nervous System recruits Histamine as part of a survival response to make us more alert, and also work as a Vasodilator.  A lot of stimulant style products as well can have a pro Histamine effect just by activating the Sympathetic Nervous System.  So, a lot of stimulants may even aggravate DOMS, you never know.

So, what you’ll find is, this Prostaglandin E2 is a very important part of the DOMS process.  They’ve done some studies where they looked at things like Bradykinin and Histamine and found that they don’t cause the pain unless Prostaglandin has pre primed it.  An interesting fact, in that paper, they were just focusing on Fibroblasts and Inflammatory Mediators in the Fascia and DOMS, and what they found is, the reason why you get DOMS due to unaccustomed exercise, or if you’ve had a break and then come back you get the DOMS but if you train regularly you don’t get the DOMS, the reason why is because you actually deplete the amount of Inflammatory Mediators available.  So, when you haven’t trained something for a while these thing build up and then you start training and they release a heap and everything bloody hurts, but if you keep training daily you use them all up and you get less Inflammation.

Steve: And, less inflammation means less growth, and that’s why you don’t have a gym session every day.  Otherwise, the simple answer to grow as big as Arnie would be to work out morning and night, morning and night, and we know that’s a bad thing.

Matt: Yeah.

Steve: Just on Inflammation, you mentioned the COX-2 inhibitors; COX-2 inhibitors stands for Cyclooxygenase, and that is an Inflammatory chemical, it’s a two, it’s an even number which means it’s pro-Inflammatory.


I was talking to the guy just before we started recording and Matt asked me to mention this; when you’re talking about Inflammation pathways, and we talk about Cyclooxygenase-2 and Prostaglandin “Series 2”, Interleukin, all the other Eicosanoids of the “Series-2”.  If it’s an even number it’s typically Inflammatory, and if it’s an odd number then it’s typically Anti-Inflammatory.

Jeff: Does that apply to Omega 3, 5, 7, 9?

Steve: Yeah.  So, is Omega 3 Anti-Inflammatory?

Matt:  Yeah.

Steve: Is Omega 9?

Matt: Yeah.

Steve: Is Omega 6:

Matt: No.

Steve: It’s Inflammatory, it’s an even number.  That’s how I teach my students, the simple biochemistry of Inflammation.

Matt: It’s cool, eh.

Steve: The COX-2 inhibitors, things like Meloxicam – and, there was a drug recently that was banned because it was causing Heart Disease a lot.  So, if you inhibit COX-2 on its own you can also inhibit the Prostacyclin in the blood vessels.  Now, Prostacyclin keeps the blood vessels dilated, and that’s what we want.  So, if you’re on a COX-2 inhibitor, and Celebrex is a common one in Australia, then that can inhibit growth and can also be potentially dangerous for your Heart as well.

Matt: The funny this, when you look at these Inflammatory mediators it’s more than just pain.  Like you were saying too, there are signals for Injury and there are signals to tell the body it needs to Regenerate.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt:  Like I was saying, the Prostaglandin-E2 makes the other Inflammatory mediators more aggressive and hurt more.  But, another thing Prostaglandin-E2 does, and another reason why it’s activated as part of DOMS and as part of Injury, is it directly activates Fibroblasts to stimulate the growth factors and encourage Satellite Cell migration for Cell proliferation.

So, Prostaglandin-E2 builds muscle, so Prostaglandin-E2 stimulates the growth factors from the Fascia to tell the Muscle it needs to be stronger.

One of the ways it does it that, is in the Muscle area and in the local Tissue it upregulates Aromatase conversion of Testosterone to Estrogen.  So, guys who take Testosterone replacement therapy and feel less pain and grow – one of the ways your body is helping the Muscle growth is by converting that Testosterone to Estrogen.  Estrogen is the most Anabolic.  And, this is the wild thing; you know how I was saying Estrogen does the Collagen?

Jeff: Yes.

Matt:  You can’t build Muscle unless you build the Collagen first.  So, what DOMS is, is the remodelling and the reorganisation of your Collagen and your Fascia to make it possible for y0u to build more Muscle.

Jeff: Is this why, with some of the professionals who I used to know, they would say, “If you use Tamoxifen or if you’re using Arimidex you can actually reduce your gains.

Matt: Tamoxifen blocks Fibroblasts straight up.  Tamoxifen blocks Fibroblasts ability to tell the body to grow more Fascia and to grow more Muscle.  So, Tamoxifen, for everyone out there, is an Estrogen blocker.


Steve: It blocks all Estrogen, does it?

Matt:  Yeah, it blocks Estrogen receptor sites.  It’s important to know it blocks Estrogen at receptor sites, it doesn’t just block Estrogen, but it blocks its actions.  The reason why I’m mentioning that is, we have things like Ecdysterones; Phytoecdysterones have been shown to be the most Anabolic natural compound around, and they do it via Estrogen receptors.

Now, Estrogen reduces DOMS but encourages growth.  This is the point you need to understand; you’re talking about, do we want to have DOMS or don’t we want to have DOMS?  DOMS is a symptom, okay?  What we want is Muscle Hyper-trophy or Hypertrophy– I fucking never know how to say that.

Steve: Either is correct.

Matt:  Good.  Well, we’re just going to go for the Muscle growth.


So, Estrogen stimulates Muscle growth better than anything else.  It’s been compared directly to Testosterone, to IGF-1, to Neurabol, Dianabol, all these sorts of things, and the Estrogen receptor activation stimulates more Satellite Cell activation, it’s more prolific for Muscle, it makes more Muscle, it makes more Fascia, it makes more Collagen.  So, when you’ve got a higher Estrogen activity, not necessarily a high level of Estrogen Hormone in your body, but when you’ve got a high level of Estrogen activity at the receptor site you get less DOMS but you get more growth.  So, that screws with our theory that you need DOMS to grow.

Steve: Mm.

Matt: DOMS is symptom, it’s a pain.  So, what we’re saying is, part of the DOMS is the degree of Inflammation and severity of the Injury stimulus, so that will determine how much growth you get.  But, it looks like if you’re capable of having good Estrogen receptor activation, if you’re capable of having good Testosterone load to make Estrogen in the local area then you are capable of making your Muscle growth more efficient and therefore you’ll get less DOMS but still get the same Muscle growth.

Jeff: When we’re talking about the Estrogen, and I appreciate there are a couple of different types of Estrogen –

Steve: Three, yeah.

Jeff: So, typically you want to be getting the good type, the beneficial type of Estrogen.

Matt:  It’s not that simple, you know.

Jeff: In the right ratio, correct?

Steve: Yeah, the right ratios.

Matt: But, they’re also constantly changing, and when you have a look at the Aromatisation of Testosterone it makes E2, but if I was to give you E2 it would be totally different to you making E2 in the local area and using that.

Jeff: You talk about this a lot, Matt.

Matt:  Because, what we’ve got to understand is, if you’re just throwing Hormones around in your circulation they’ve got affinities for different parts of the body, and they’ve got resistance in other areas, but what you’ve got to understand is, we have the ability to have Hormones to have – they call it an Autocrine or a Paracrine effect, which is where they work in the Cell where they’re made, and then they don’t have the option to go and make your arse fat.  So, if you’re making the Estrogen via Aromatisation of the Testosterone it will be happening in a relatively local area where we’re getting the Inflammation.


So, it’s a bit different to trying to increase someone’s Estrogen load because that’s how you get fat and cancer and stuff.

Steve: Right.

Matt:  But, what’s interesting is, when we see this research on such things as the Phytoecdysterones that don’t have an Estrogen effect but they interact with Estrogen receptors to induce certain Estrogen receptors in certain Tissue, and they can have the ability to stimulate Muscle growth without having the side effects of systemic Estrogen build up.

Jeff: It’s funny, actually.  You mentioned a while ago when we were talking about the Ecdysterones and the importance of Estrogen for Muscle building, there was something fascinating you said, Matt, in relation to older bodybuilders, especially once they hit over that 40 years of age, is that their Hamstrings and their Glutes and their legs in general, seem to diminish.

I’ve just watched Kevin Levrone, who was huge back in the ‘90s is making a comeback, and he looks amazing as well.

Matt: How quick did he grow?  Massive.

Jeff: I think that Muscle has been there so it sort of responds.

Matt:  Muscle memory.

Jeff: Muscle memory, that’s what I’m looking for – I haven’t got the memory to say Muscle memory – but, what was interesting was I saw a picture of him from around the late ‘90s and then compared him today, he looks great and you would even say he’s comparable except for his Hamstrings and his Glutes.

Matt:  Yeah, because we lose Estrogen activity, it’s common.  And, this is the other thing that screws with my brain when I’m reading about this stuff; I’m reading all these things going, “Cool, women don’t get DOMS,” but I know, for a fact, in my Naturopath clinic 90% of the people who came to me with Fatigue, Myofascial Pain Syndromes, like Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue, Mixed Connective Tissue Disorders, they were all women.

Jeff: Wow.

Matt: And, when you have a look at the stats, the women are just all over the blokes when it comes to Myofascial pain, yet they’ve got all these things that should stop it.  So, what I’m thinking it is, and when I had another look with fresh eyes, it’s mainly Menopausal women and women with Hormonal Dysfunction and women around their period.  And, this is the thing with men, we get a lower level of Estrogen which is relatively consistent because it’s not coming as part of a monthly cycle from Ovaries, it’s mainly from the conversion of Testosterone through to Estrogen, so we keep this steady level.  But, in cases of Inflammation we actually make more.  So, when blokes are exposed to Inflammation and Trauma they convert more Testosterone to Estrogen.  We’re thinking, “Oh that’s – I don’t know what, it’s terrible.”

Jeff: It’s terrible.

Matt:  Yeah, it’s terrible, but it’s actually part of a very important part of regenerating and growth.  So, when we had a look at all the things that you can use to fix DOMS then knowing this new information it’s interesting to see, and, “Okay, yeah I know how to fix it with Anti-inflammatories, but would you?”

Jeff: No, because you seem to be diminishing the results you should be getting.

Matt:  Yeah.

Steve: Don’t take the Antihistamine.

Matt: So, an interesting thing; one of the ways that they could fix DOMS, and let’s forget about supplementation and that for a little bit, they’ve done a heap of research on stretching and warming up and all that sort of thing.


They found with cooling down and stretching afterwards did nothing for DOMS, but beforehand, if they did stretching it did nothing, but if they did stretching as part of a warm up, to warm up the Muscles, stretching with a bit of activity and that, it did help the DOMS.

I read another study – what the hell was that?  Cardio Acceleration, it had a flash word, I can’t remember so it’s not that flash, not a good marketing word.  But anyway, they had these groups before Resistance Exercise, they made one group just increase their heart rate to 66% of what their maximum would be, while everyone else rested and got theirs down to about 30%.  They did a Cardio Acceleration just before their sets and they had no DOMS.  So, what it’s showing is, if you can just increase the Vasodilation but in the Microvascular – so, if you can just warm up, increase the blood flow and also get that Fascia warmed up, get the Fascia stretched and loose, you get less soreness and less tearing.

I haven’t seen any of those papers where they link to Muscle Hypertrophy, but they definitely reduce the pain.  None of those papers talked about other mediators, but they do talk about Creatine Kinase – fucking CKs, the Creatine Kinase –

Steve: It’s an Enzyme released when your Muscles are damaged.

Matt: That’s one of the main markers, it means that the Muscle membrane has been damaged.  But, that’s one of the main markers that shows Muscle damage.  You know how people get their – they come in and they’re freaking out, “My Kidneys are dying because my Creatinine levels are up.”

Jeff: That’s right.

Matt:  Well, “Actually, your Muscles have broken down in prep for comp.”

Jeff: Often because you’re taking too much Protein.

But, with that, Matt, if people were doing that warm up to get less DOMS were they still getting the same amount of Muscle growth?  Was that measured at all?

Matt: No, that wasn’t measured.

Jeff: It would be interesting.

Matt:  But, what is interesting though, is the Creatine Kinase is something that you do want gone, because that’s the sign of Muscle damage and as soon as that’s gone you want that clearing away quickly because then you want to get back into Muscle Hypertrophy – I’ve got to stop saying that word.

Jeff: So, it’s like, “Let’s not have a controversy about how to say controversy.”  I think it’s one of those things where the Muscle is being Anabolic, it’s growing.

Matt:  Yeah, yeah.

Jeff: So, obviously, when that Kinase is gone it should be in an Anabolic growing phase.

Matt: Yeah.  And, what they found, because they always thought that was one of the main drivers of the Muscle pain as well, or their theory of Muscle damage causing DOMS, the fact that the Creatine Kinase clears away significantly faster than the DOMS.  So, the Creatine Kinase is gone – yeah, especially in women, their Creatine Kinase is gone days before and they’re still whinging.

Steve: Oh, don’t say it like that.


They still experience symptoms, maybe.  Before you get the letters coming in.

Jeff: Oh, he gets plenty.

Steve: Yeah, I can imagine.

The fascinating thing about Estrogen too is, it also stabilises the Cell Membranes of the Tissues as well, so it’s got a bonus effect there.


Now, you talked about the benefit of Estrogen in men; a lot of men are taking Estrogen blockers.  You mentioned the Arimidex before, which is an Aromatase inhibitor, but it’s often given to Breast Cancer sufferers because it stops Estrogen, and so is Tamoxifen, it’s an Anti-chemotherapy drug that blocks Estrogen.  Now, they’re drugs that are relatively common too, and also the Contraceptive Pill blocks the natural release of natural Estrogen, so it would be interesting to see how these synthetic Estrogens in the Pill, because a lot of women are on the Pill.  Dare I say most of reproductive age?

Jeff: I think you’d be probably pretty accurate in saying most.  I’d like to see the stats on that.

Matt:  There are some interesting studies on the Pill with it, some of the Progesterones and that sort of stuff are used.

Steve: Mm.

Matt:  They’re actually looking at Pills that are more suitable for people who suffer Myofascial pain.

Jeff: Wow.

Matt:  Yeah, so there’s a lot of research going into it.  Those Inflammatory mediators, by the way, just before I forget, they actually make the pain by activating a particular receptor called the TRPV-1 Receptor, which you don’t need to know, but people nicknamed it the Capsaicin Receptor, that’s actually the one that Capsaicin blocks to block pain.  We’ve got that CAPZEA product, but if you can get a Capsaicin liniment it will actually block the pain and allow you to function and keep training to a certain degree.

Steve: That’s important because you don’t want to take a COX-2 inhibitor – like Nurofen or Aspirin inhibit COX-2, and they’re common drugs.

Matt:  Yeah, they’ll block the pain but they’re stopping your Muscle growth, but you want to be able to block the pain so you can continue to train and not have to train once and then have a week off and you’re just constantly stuck in that vicious cycle.

Jeff: Back a while ago, I think, in the late ‘90s and early 2000s, a lot of bodybuilders who obviously had chronic pain from injuries and over training and all sorts of damage that they had created, they were using a compound called Nubain.  Have you heard of that before?

Steve: No, I haven’t.

Jeff: Very, very dangerous, and I think Guy Grundy talked about his battles with this, but he needed to use it just to function and certainly to train.  I don’t know if it’s a COX-2 inhibitor or not, but obviously if guys are getting to the extent where they need to use heavy duty pain killers like that, they’re probably getting diminishing returns from their training.

Steve: Oh yeah, it’s probably which block’s pain in the brain, and that’s not an Anti-Inflammatory, per se, the Morphine does that, and it sounds like it’s a severe drop of that and then they get heavily addicted.  They’re now classed as S8, they’re quite restricted drugs, a doctor can prescribe them but it’s very closely monitored.  The COX-2 inhibitors like Celebrex they’re just S4, they’re more common, and the Nurofen and the Aspirin you can get from Coles supermarket.

Jeff: Get it over the counter.

Matt:  And, this is the other thing, this is the fuzzy logic that just runs around my brain when I hear people talk the talk – that’s me ‘tinking’ – sorry, thinking while you’re talking – it’s just a ‘tinking’ brain over here – they create Leaky Gut Wall.  So, the strip the Gut Wall.  If you strip the surface area of the Gut Wall, 400 square metres, it’s covered in bugs, and then what happens is all of these bugs and all their bacterial fragments, known as Lipopolysaccharides float around your body, that primes all of your Inflammatory mediators.


So, if you’ve got a Leaky Gut Wall, or if you’ve got damage to your Gut Wall caused by Anti-Inflammatories the side effect is significantly more Inflammation.  The Lipopolysaccharides are the most Inflammatory thing known to man, and it will go through and directly upregulate Prostaglandin-E2, it will drive everything towards making that, and that creates a big vicious cycle because you might need Anti-Inflammatories, but also it creates a Stress reaction which takes blood away from your Gut Wall contributing to the Leaky Gut.

Jeff: You can see how people become chronic, eh?

Matt:  Oh yeah.  But, then what if you’ve got Intestinal Dysbiosis, if you Microbiome and your Gut Flora is not right you can have a constant source of Inflammation, and that triggers things like Interleukin-1, Interleukin-6, which are Cytokines, they’re chemicals from your Immune System saying, “Something’s not quite right, we’re not even going to wait to see what it is, we’re just going to tell you something’s not right, so you should worry.”

Jeff: That could lead to a severe Autoimmune over time?

Matt: Yeah, it would.  It doesn’t matter, I don’t want to get too specific with it, but it can lead to Immune Dysregulation.  We talk about your Immune System like a Seesaw because very rarely does it sit flat, so either one side is up or the other side is up.  When you’re sitting flat you’ve got no Inflammation, your Immune System is balanced.  When your Immune System, that kills off infections, is high, so if you get overexposure to bugs because of a Leaky Gut Wall you get excessive Interleukin-1, Interleukin-6 in response to that, and that aggravates your Prostaglandin pathways, it makes more DOMS.

But, if you get more of the Allergic Inflammation, you’re getting a lot more Food Antigens and dust and pollen coming through then naturally you make more Histamine, and the Histamine is the main driving factor.  So, for people with Gut Dysfunction and all of those sorts of problems they can get exaggerated DOMS.  And, if you research such things as Glutamine, if you research such things as Citrulline Malate, in particular, there is really good research showing no DOMS.  Yet, the research that we’re talking about with Metabolic Waste we always made the assumption that through an Amino Acid pathway they’re helping our sports performance or whatever, but Citrulline Malate has been shown to stop Lipopolysaccharides from causing Muscle damage.

So, it’s actually been shown, if you’ve got a Gut Infection, if you’re travelling and your Gut goes weird, Citrulline Malate can stop that interfering with your Muscle function.  Glutamine, by thickening up the Gut Wall, improving the tight junction Proteins, tightening everything up, maybe that’s how Glutamine is improving our recovery not just be fuelling Amino Acids and Muscle.

Steve: The Muscle, gosh.

Matt:  But, then if you have a look at this, it’s got bugger all to do with the Muscle.  If we can get the Fascia Regenerating and Repairing – because, what’s happening in DOMS is your body is building new warehousing for your Muscle, so your body has decided, “I need more Muscle if this is going to continue, and to do that I need to make space to put in new Fascia,” in particular Epimysium which is this thing that they talk about all the time, which is actually the sock that goes right around the outside.  You know when you buy your pork loin and things?


Jeff: Yeah.

Matt:  Well, that’s that, it looks like Epimysium there.  So, that’s one of the main ones that is the coating around the outside, because that’s the one that’s got to hold your Muscle when it’s swelling and then when you go long it’s got to be able to stretch as well that way, and that’s when your body goes, “Right, we need to build more socks or infrastructure or architecture or anchor points,” whatever, so you’re capable of building more Muscle fibres otherwise all you’re doing is swelling and shrinking your Muscle fibres.  If you can’t build the Fascia that’s how you get Injuries.

Jeff: And that happens a lot, and obviously the idea behind the NOWAY Protein was to help with the Fascia?

Matt:  Yeah.

Jeff: It’s funny, I think we’re learning more about the importance of supporting and maintaining and building the Fascia just through some of this research and such that we considered bringing on the NOWAY Protein.

Matt:  Yeah, you don’t realise how much of the knowledge out there is governed by what they want us to know.  A lot of the research on Collagen is behind closed doors because it can’t get published.  It’s very strange, it’s a weird thing.  Like I said, that bloody thing there, in 1910 said, “The most important thing in our body holding everything together is Fascia,” and I don’t think anyone has looked at it since then.  When you go through the research, there’s a lot of research talking about bloody heal pain and Plantar Fasciitis and all that sort of stuff.

But really, with these Myofascial Pain Syndromes, the way they always talked about them as being Mitochondrial defects and all that, but the Mitochondrial defect is because of the Fascia, it’s because of the lack of Fibroblasts being able to induce these Organelles production and that sort of stuff.

Steve: We talk about women a lot with their flexible Fascia, and you talk about high Estrogens –


Matt:  Don’t look at me.  Why do you guys look at me when you say something?  That wasn’t even dodgy.  I was just having a sip of coffee.

Steve: But, you’ve heard of things like Uterine Prolapse and these sorts of things.

Jeff: Yes.

Matt:  I have.

Steve: Yes, well those sorts of things, Prolapses are more common in women, obviously Uterine Prolapse is exclusive to women –

Matt:  Well, Uterine’s are, yeah.

Steve: But, also other prolapses are because of their weak or – well, it’s not weak, but their flexible Collagens because of their high Estrogen.

Matt:  Well, they’ve even found that guys who get Hernias, they’ve found they’ve got less Estrogen receptors.  So, the guys who are constantly susceptible to Hernias in certain areas, those areas have less Estrogen receptors in their Fascia and it can get harder to control elasticity and flexibility.

Jeff: Get out.

Matt:  They’ve done some research using Estrogen creams on the Hernias and it was shown to improve the flexibility but not fix them.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt:  So, it will be interesting to see, but they’re looking at that sort of stuff as prevention.

Jeff: PROTOTYPE 8; so, PROTOTYPE 8 would be perfect would it, Matt?

Matt:  Well, they don’t know.  This is the thing; the research isn’t perfect yet.  So, PROTOTYPE 8 it’s got massive doses of the Ecdysterones in there, and we know Ecdysterones aren’t very well absorbed orally, so the whole purpose of that product was trying to work out a way of getting Ecdysterones into the Muscle to stimulate growth.


Steve: Mm.

Matt:  It’s an interesting one, because you need the Vasodilation but you don’t want too much.  You need to be warmed up and you need to be stretched, but it’s a funny thing.  You need to maximise your DOMS – it’s one of those things where you want your DOMS to be bad and then gone, you want to know that you’re having exaggerated stimulus to stimulate Hypertrophy, but then you want it efficiently dealt with and cleared away so you can get back to training.

Steve: And remember, you won’t get DOMS in a non-stretched Muscle.  It’s usually eccentric Muscles so squats – that’s why you wouldn’t get them very much in the shoulders like you mentioned earlier.  So, those Muscles may not feel it –

Matt:  I get a lot in the Traps but not so much the Delts’.

Jeff: The Delts’ are growing.  But, the DOMS aren’t there so much, and obviously they might get them a bit but they’re still growing, so obviously DOMS plays a part there but it’s not – does that mean that they can’t get as much growth?

Matt:  Possibly.

Jeff: It’s just interesting.

Matt:  Yeah.  I don’t really know.  There’s still a lot to learn about it.

Steve: Well remember, the eccentric Muscle is what drives the DOMS, the stretching of the Fascia.  If you think of a shoulder, but you can’t really stretch your shoulder Muscle because your body is in the way, you can’t stretch it down any further.  But, your legs you can, you can stretch your Hammies and all sorts of things, and that’s where the DOMS really kick in.

Jeff: The only stretches, I think, for the shoulder is pulling your arm across that way and pulling it the other way.

Steve: Yeah, yeah.

Matt:  But, they’re not under load.

Steve: Yeah, you need to push the load.  And, that’s why the study shows running downhill is when you stretch your leg out.

Matt:  That’s why it hurts so much to walk downhill with DOMS because that’s the bit that shut down.

Steve: No, it’s fascinating and you’ve hit the nail on the head.  The trick here is, is getting DOMS and then not getting DOMS in some areas.  You’ll still get growth in your shoulders, of course, because shoulders grow.  So, the DOMS are important for some areas but not for others.

Jeff: That’s weird.

Matt:  I’ll tell you what’s funny as well, the Glutes, Quads, Hammies, the Back, Chest and Triceps are the areas that have the most Estrogen receptors in Muscle.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt:  So, all those big large areas that are susceptible to the stretching actually have a lot more Estrogen receptors than the other areas.  It’s funny eh?  It’s starting to piece together.

Steve: And, just to confuse you a bit further, you do get DOMS from distance running, and we know distance running is Catabolic.

Matt:  I bloody would, I wouldn’t walk for a month.

Steve: Yeah, well you do.  After the marathon when you’re walking around that same day, because it usually finishes by 11.

Matt:  Not me.

Jeff: Eleven the next day.


Steve: Exactly.  You’re kind of feeling alright, your feet are sore and you’ve got pain, but you haven’t got DOMS until a couple of days after.


I live in a house that’s got stairs and the first day after running a marathon I can walk up and down the stairs and I’m sore because I’ve been running, but the next day forget about it, you’re getting helped up the stairs with your hands.

Jeff: That’s not Lactic Acid, that’s actually DOMS?

Steve: That’s DOMS.

Matt:  Yeah, it’s Inflammation in the Fascia.

Steve: And remember, distance running is Catabolic, it’s going to break things down.  So, DOMS is not exclusive for Catabolism because it’s the Fascia, it’s not the Muscle.

Matt:  Yeah, yeah that’s true.  That’s another good point.

Steve: Muscle damage, and I’ve done this in the gym, I’ve tried to squat too much, and you’ve pulled a Muscle in your back and you feel it straight away, “Ooh, shivers I better stop that,” and it hurts, so you put the weight back and you’re, “Ooh, ooh.”  So, Muscle damage is felt straight away, not 48 hours later.

Matt:  Yeah, that’s right.  And, this is just the Inflammation from the Fascia saying “We’ve been stretched, we’ve been strained, we need to get tougher.”  So, what we’ve read is that if you warm up, if you get the Fascia warm, you get your heartrate moving a little bit, and even some resistance exercise – I’ve requested the full paper, but I’m just tight as a fish’s arse, so I’ve got someone getting from the library for me – but, I’ve got the full paper coming and we’ll find out exactly what they did to increase their heartrate.  But, if you’ve got your heartrate up before your Resistance training between sets – it makes me think what Josh was saying.

We did a podcast with Josh Lenartowicz last week, and he was saying one thing that he definitely does is, between sets he doesn’t do a warm up set with like 20 or 30 reps on a light weight throwing it around, he’ll do consistent 12 reps sort of thing, and he’ll try to do exactly the same speed, technique and form at a low weight as he does with a high weight.  But, blah, blah, blah, he was telling me he does a couple of sets, warm up sets before he goes in to do his actual proper sets, and he might be actually just working on this Cardio Acceleration as well, and warming up the Fascia a little bit preventing Injury, and he’s definitely not struggling with Hypertrophy – man, that word is bugging me today.

So, when you do the warm up, and it’s important to be warm and stretch; a cold stretch did nothing.  So, you’ve got to have that heartrate up, so you’ve got to do a bit of Cardio and get everything up then you can do a bit of stretching and then you won’t get as much DOMS straight up because you’ve made the Fascia less damaged.

The activation of the Estrogen receptors is extremely important for the Hypertrophy, but also working to fuel the Fibroblasts to actually do it, so that’s where the Collagen Protein – and, I don’t want this to be a product flog, but it just so happens that we’re on track.

Jeff: Yes.

Matt:  And, it’s not a coincidence.  The Body Balance that we use is a combination of Hydrolysed Collagen into Aminos, but it’s actually the Bioactive Peptides that directly stimulate the Satellite Cells and everything.  So, using something that’s focused towards Collagen – now, unless it’s got Hydroxyproline and that as part of the Amino Acids it’s not directing towards Collagen.


So, things like Whey and Vegetable Proteins don’t have the Hydroxyprolines that you get out of Collagen, so they don’t feed Connective Tissue, they will just feed Aminos and then you’ve got to convert things like Arginine, Glycine and all that sort of stuff into Hydroxyprolines and that, so it’s very inefficient.

But, Collagen will directly stimulate that, but then the Bioactive Peptides separately, you can use them to perform a particular function towards building Fascia.  Things that I’ve read through all of these papers they’re talking about ways of stopping DOMS, but if you have a look at something like Turmeric, Bioavailable Turmeric – the biggest load of shit on earth, by the way – because Turmeric is great, an NRF2 activator, a great Anti-Inflammatory and all that sort of stuff.  It’s also a very powerful mTOR inhibitor to inhibit Muscle growth.  So, I could load you up with a very Bioavailable Turmeric – I’m only joking saying this Bioavailable thing, because it’s a load of shit.  For years and years and years, like thousands or however bloody long, we’ve known Turmeric has worked.  Turmeric works, okay?  It does amazing things for Inflammation, it has Antioxidants and everything.  Some guys go through and say, “We’ve done a study to show Turmeric works.  As part of the study we found that it’s not Bioavailable,” and then they go and make a conclusion, “Therefore it’s a scam, it can’t work.”  But, “No, hang on, you just said it works and it’s not Bioavailable.  So okay, it doesn’t work by being Bioavailable, but you’ve just proven it works, so let’s talk about how it might work.”

The way it works is in the Gut, in the Liver, in the local area actually by being Detoxified it’s upregulating Detoxification processes like Glucuronidation.  Anyway, to change something that naturally works a certain way to make it fit a medical model where you get systemic saturation in all your Tissues, yes you can do that Bioavailable Turmeric and it may help the Inflammation and the soreness and the DOMS, but it will do that by stopping the whole Inflammatory cascade that’s creating the growth, plus it’s known to directly inhibit mTOR.  It’s also directly known to inhibit Angiogenesis, which is the generation of new micro vessels into the deep part of the Muscle.  So, you don’t want Bioavailable Systemic Turmeric.

And, a lot of other things I was reading were saying the same sort of stuff, they’re talking about these Herbs that can totally block it, but yeah, we don’t want to totally block it, we want to enhance it, we want to be smart about this.  So, you can use the Capsaicin if you want to block the pain, just put transdermal Capsaicin, you can use ours or you can get it anywhere, it’s very popular, it blocks pain.

You want to do the warm ups, you don’t really want to be pre-loading with everything.  Controlling your Essential Fatty Acids is a great idea because we can control all your Prostaglandins and everything like that, but that’s from eating good oils.  Even the studies showing over supplementing with any particular oil didn’t really help a great deal.


But, it did show that if you overdose on Arachidonic Acid you can make everything a thousand times worse.

Steve: Oh yeah.

Matt:  Now, when I say a thousand times worse, again I’m all into the fuzzy logic.  So, if you are a bodybuilder and you’re very strict on your diet – well, not a bodybuilder, but if you’re anyone who has gone exclusively off Omega 6, so if you’ve taken yourself off all the grains, you’ve taken yourself off all of the grass seeds and all that stuff, and now you’re just eating the grass, then you’re losing all your Omega 6s, you can be very high in Omega 3 and you may actually be deficient in such things as Arachidonic Acid.  You can actually do Lipid profiles and measure this before you supplement, because, as I said, if you’ve got too much Arachidonic Acid you get Heart Disease, Cancer, Arthritis.  If you don’t have enough then you don’t get as sore from your training, and some people can increase the amount of Arachidonic Acid and start to hurt again, and they would that by eating such things as pork, other red meats and that sort of stuff that is very high in Arachidonic Acid, or supplementing with it if you really want to but I’d rather eat meat.

Jeff: You don’t see too many of those supplements around now.

Matt:  No, and that’s the whole thing, they were creating soreness and people were going, “Man, it’s just like I’m starting at the gym again, I’m going to be growing again.”  See, the Inflammation doesn’t cause the growth, the Inflammation is damaging and Catabolic, but it’s how our body responds to the Inflammation that determines how you grow.  The response to the Inflammation is through the Estrogen receptors and all that.

Steve: Yeah, exactly.  It’s fascinating stuff.

Jeff: So, is that it in a nutshell, Matt?  You’ve done a nice summary there at the end.  Is there anything else that you wanted to add Steve or Matt?

Steve: No.  I mean there are other chemical mediators that we don’t need to go through, like Bradykinin.  If you’re on ACE inhibitors you’ve got to be worried about your growth there because ACE inhibitors also inhibit the breakdown of Bradykinin.

Matt:  They’re typically blood pressure medications.

Steve: Blood pressure, sorry.  So, if you’re on any Blood Pressure medication that can also inhibit growth.

Atenolol is the ACE inhibitor?

Steve: Yeah.  And, Beta Blockers, they block Adrenaline, so you may not be able to get your Heartrate up as high.

Matt:  Oh, the other point, while you’re talking about that.  Another thing that’s found in DOMS is Calcium Dysregulation.

Steve: Yes.

Matt:  Because, what happens is, part of the Nerve Stimulus and the signals you get a lot of Calcium influx, and that accumulation of Calcium – Calcium hurts too.  If you get an accumulation of Calcium in around the Fascia, around nerves, that’s the stuff that really hurts.

Steve: It stimulates, yeah.

Matt:  So, you know when you get a Muscle contraction it’s basically little Calcium teeth that holds it across and then they relax and Magnesium displaces it.  So, Magnesium, not so much from the point of view of being an Acidity buffer, but if you’ve got a Magnesium Deficiency you can’t move the Calcium.  And, that’s what screwed me around too, because I’m reading this bloody ‘Herbs and Natural supplements in the Prevention and Treatment of Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness’ paper, and I disagree with most of the things in the bloody paper.

Jeff: Wow.

Matt:  Because, they’re sitting there saying, “Caffeine is good because Caffeine is a pain reliever,” and you go, “No, but Caffeine also stimulates Calcium influx into Cells.  Caffeine also aggravates the Inflammatory process.


Caffeine by inhibiting the Phosphodiesterase-2 it’s preserving Cyclic AMP which is keeping it in that state.  So, it doesn’t make sense, but it might block pain.  The reason I’m saying this is, because you’ve got to understand what we’re trying to do here, if we’re just being healthy every day and do a bit of exercise and have no pain, you can do all those things, but if your goal is to grow significant amounts of Muscle then you want to maximise the pain but then maximise your recovery after it.  That’s probably the lesson.

But, it’s not to do with Lactic Acid, it’s not to do with Acidic Waste settling.  All the Acidity buffers and the Electrolytes, for example, the Beta Alanine, the Potassium and Citrates and all that sort of stuff, that will buffer the Acids, and even Bicarb Soda they do nothing for DOMS but they do improve endurance.

Steve: Yeah, absolutely.

Matt:  Because, the Acidic Waste will inhibit your endurance, but it won’t encourage DOMS.  You see all the studies where they load up on Antioxidants?

Steve: Yeah, it does nothing.

Matt:  They have no effect on any of the other things, so don’t worry about those.  They work on endurance and they make you go for longer with less pain at the time, but they have no effect on DOMS, DOMS is all Inflammation of the Fascia.

Jeff: DOFS.

Steve: Yeah, DOFS as we call it.

Matt:  DOFS, well that’s a good one.  I’m just going to cross out my M here, and put DOFS.

Jeff: Well, good stuff.  Thanks guys, I’m sure there’s plenty of food for thought.  It was quite a difficult podcast, there is probably a lot of information there, and there’s probably not a 100% conclusion, this is probably a lot of information that is starting to be pieced together and we’re starting to get a bit of a handle on.

Steve: Yeah, absolutely.

Matt:  When we share these papers with you, when you read most of them, you’ll see that most of them start by going, “We don’t really know.”  So, most of them say, “This is a thing that everyone experiences, it’s all over the world, it’s something that every one of us gets, and we still don’t know what it is.”

Steve: Exactly.  There are still a lot of unknowns to this one.

Jeff: Mm.

Matt:  Yeah.  It’s cool though.

Steve: Yeah, fascinating.  I loved the podcast.

Matt:  We’ll probably do more podcasts on it and get back to it with ways of stimulating Fascia Hypertrophy.

Jeff: Sounds good.

Matt:  We’ll just do one, Hypertrophy, Hyper-trophy.  Which one is it?

Jeff: Well, it’s either.

Steve: You could do a podcast on that.

Jeff: It really comes down to whether you say ‘Darnce’ or Dance.

Matt:  I’m a dancer, really.

Jeff: I’m more of a ‘Darncer’.

Matt:  Do you live in a castle or a –

Jeff: That’s because you’re from Queensland.  I live in a ‘Carstle’.

Matt:  Yeah.

Steve: Well, I’m from Victoria.

Matt:  With your Squires and Princes.

Steve: Yes.

Jeff: With my Queen.

Matt:  You ‘Darnce’ with your Squire in your ‘Carstle’.

Jeff: No, that’s John.

Matt:  You ‘Darnce’ with John in your ‘Carstle’?


Jeff: Just quickly, a quick announcement; the ATP Project is coming to Sydney Australia next week for two seminars.  What’s the date next week?

Well, let’s get into some FAQs guys.

Matt:  I’m buggered if I know.

Steve: It’s the 11th today, so it will be the 18th next week.

Matt:  Struth.  Yeah, something like that.

Jeff: Yeah, I think it’s around the 16th, 17th, 18th of May we’re down in Sydney doing some seminars.


Matt:  Cool.

Jeff: So, Wednesday with Fit Nutrition Fix, and then at Nutrition Warehouse.  So, jump into those stores Wednesday and Thursday.  Wednesday is with Fit Nutrition and Thursday is with Nutrition Warehouse.  So, we’re going to be going in there and doing a seminar.  Thanks guys for having us.  The seminar is on Handbrakes to Health; it’s not always about pushing the throttle harder, sometimes it’s about removing the handbrakes.  Those handbrakes include Food Choices, Cooking Techniques, and how these can affect the way that your body absorbs Nutrients, Stress and why it can be holding you back, Hormonal Ratios, Different Profiles, Sensitivity and Conversion Pathways, Inflammation and Immune Health, Gut Health and the Microbiome, which I know is very timely.  There’s a lot of information there, Matt, and it’s getting really exciting with regards to the Microbiome.

Matt:  Yeah, too easy.

Jeff: To find out more, if you’re interested and you’re down in Sydney and you want to come along, if you want to email and she can hook you up.

Matt:  Nice.

Jeff: I got it right.



Jeff: So, a couple of FAQs.  Let’s get into these straight away.


This one is from Adrian-

“To Matt and Jeff.  Like many others I just want to say a massive thank you for bringing an honest and caring approach to the industry consistently shrouded in deception and lies.  Keep on doing what you’re doing.

My name is Adrian and I’m 21 years old and I’m a full-time student.  I wanted to ask for an opinion you could offer me about my predicament I’ve been in since turning 19.

I came from a background of serious bodybuilding which I was forced to give up at the peak of my illness, which involved Chronic Gut issues, Brain Fog and Depression.  Along with that I had to drop out of Med School because the work became overbearing quite quickly.

Out of nowhere when I was 19 my Bowels became sensitive to everything.  My Bowel habits changed and I became very hypersensitive to a lot of different things, such as Pain and emotional anguish.  I think this was further exacerbated as I spent most of my time at the gym which was suddenly pried away from me due to my constant Pain and Depression.  Throughout my sickness, a lot of positive things have arisen and I’m a much kinder person, but I really want this Pain and Mental Fog gone so I can attack life like I used to.

A quick history of my background; I moved from Melbourne to Queensland at 13, which was a little traumatic.  Two months later I had my Appendix removed.  I came back to Melbourne at 15 and started training full time in the gym five to six days a week.  I have a very restricted bodybuilding Diet consisting mainly of Chicken and Broccoli and Rice, which restricted a lot of other vital food groups which I wasn’t able to conjure previously.  Also, during this time I had a lot of Stress with high school, and had to get a high 90s ATAR to get into Medicine”

That must obviously be the score.

Steve: Yeah, the big score.

“Around about 8 or 9 months into my first year at uni everything crashed and that’s when the problems started.  Since then I have had a double Inguinal Hernia fixed.  With regards to my blood work it’s pretty much all okay, however my Bilirubin and Live Enzymes are a touch above the threshold, also my Zinc/Copper Ratio is off; a Zinc Deficiency.  I also had a CDSA stool test through Genova and it elucidated that I have low levels of –


What’s that word?

Steve: Akkermansia.

Jeff: There we go.

“Akkermansia, Lactobacillus and Faecal Bacterium Prozenitzi

Steve: Yeah, that’s it.

“While also showing I had a high Beta Glucuronides, and Enterobacter,”

What’s that word Steve?

Steve: Yeah, that’s Enterobacter.

Jeff: And, the next word?

Steve: Oh, Colizzi.

Jeff: “Colizzi and Klebsiella.”

Wow, there’s a lot words here.

“Also, my Colonic levels of E.coli are slightly elevated.  Since that time my Functional MD has put me on Probiotic Fibres such as GOS, FOS, and partially Hydrolysed Guar gum, which has helped me but not completely gotten rid of my issues.  Furthermore, my Brain Fog and Depression remain.

I’m pretty sure that’s about everything.  Sorry for the longest email but I just want to get this sorted finally.

Thanks heaps.  Kind regards, Adrian.”


Matt:  That’s cool man.

I’ll tell you some interesting patterns I’ve spotted through here.  I don’t know what happened when everything went pear shaped for you, but there’s a tipping point with Gut Bugs, you know.  If you get too many of the wrong kind, and then it’s all to do with dose, and then all of a sudden everything goes a bit pear shaped for you.

Those bugs that you’ve got living in you we need to sort them out, we use a lot of Polyphenols and that sort of stuff to do that.  Akkermansia is the one that feeds on Carbon only, and it thrives with Fasted Cardio and Intermittent Fasting, and other weird things like high Polyphenol things that you can sip on Green Teas, Herbal Teas; the Yerba Mate Tea, Schisandra Berry Tea, Hibiscus, they love all that.

Jeff: And, Matt, you always recommend getting the whole herb.

Matt:  Yeah, because you need the Polyphenols out of it, and all the ‘tanninny’ – as long as your mouth feels like it’s dry.

Beta-glucuronidase is a consequence of that Gut Dysfunction.  So, all those weird Bugs increase Beta-glucuronidase, and what that Enzyme does it liberates Conjugated Toxins such as Conjugated Estrogen, it liberates so it can come back into your body.

The problem is, when you use Fructooligosaccharides – when you use indiscriminate Prebiotics they feed all those things.  It’s like you’ve got a lawn full of weeds and you’re throwing fertiliser at it.  So, you’ve got to specifically kill them, you’ve got to have a plan to kill bad ones and feed good ones.  At the moment, it’s all a mess in there and you’re just throwing food at it, and you’re going to get more and more and more of the little buggers and everything is going to get worse.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt:  They can create all sorts of Inflammatory problems.

Now, I need to mention something before I forget; whenever I see high Bilirubin, Liver Enzymes and low Zinc I tell someone to go and test a thing called Mauve Factor, and look for a condition called Kryptopyrroles.  What that is, is a defective Red Blood Cell production.  If you find that you’ve got Kryptopyrroles in your Urine, what that means is your body does not make Haemoglobin properly, for some reason, usually an Inflammatory or Oxidative Stress.


What happens is you are constantly breaking down those Red Blood Cells causing a build-up of Bilirubin and Liver Enzymes and you’ve got to excrete this waste that strips Zinc from your body.  So, you’ll get Zinc Deficiency, elevated Bilirubin and Liver Enzymes, Mental Fog, Depression, and potentially Psychosis Schizophrenia if it gets bad enough.

So, the most important thing for our friend here is, he needs to do MULTIFOOD, he needs to take extra Zinc as well to top up from that.

Jeff: Any particular type of Zinc, Matt?

Matt:  You know when people die of Gut Problems, it’s because of a Zinc Deficiency.  Those kids who get that Diarrhoea and die it’s because it depletes the body of Zinc so much that they can’t function, they can’t regenerate, it’s involved in so many Enzyme structures.

So, if I was him I’d take a Zinc Picolinate twice a day, about 25 to 50 milligrams of Zinc, see if we can load it up, and then do the MULTIFOOD 3 capsules twice a day as well to see if we can load up all these Cofactors so he’s capable, on a Cellular level, of doing things, because at this moment it’s possible that it’s not.

Changing over the Gut is a little bit more complicated, it’s a lot of specific killing sprees, and then trying to change it around a bit.

Jeff: It’s the weed and feed.

Matt:  Yeah, but it’s not, because it’s not weed, seed, feed.  It’s an ongoing thing, and this is where we found out we were going wrong in the Naturopath clinics.  You can’t just kill off a heap of stuff, you can’t throw in some seeds, and then you can’t just put in indiscriminate food from there on, and expect it to stay.  It’s a constant weed, seed, feed, a daily weed, seed, feed.

Jeff: So, it’s just like a real garden?

Matt:  Exactly.  It’s a proper Biosystem.  We need to know that we are giving Antimicrobials – and, this is again why the processing of food has become such a problem, because what we’re taking are the tasty Carb part out of it and leaving the tannin astringent – we’ve taken out the Polyphenols, and it’s the Polyphenols that keep the Bugs under control when they’re feeding on the food.

So, what you need to do is use high levels of Polyphenols, things like skins on nut seeds and that sort of stuff, lots of Herbs.  My favourite is Chinese Wormwood, very good for killing off these, and it also keeps them under control.

We’re working on a product for this exact process, so we will have a product for this one day.

Jeff: I think you and I are both looking forward to that.  It seems like so many people need it.

Matt:  We’re just experimenting a little bit with it at the moment because it’s a bit tricky, as you can see, to make a product that suits everyone because of the amounts of Bugs that are all chopping and changing.  You can’t just put in a food that’s suitable for them all, you’ve got to have a food that is specific for their Gut.  So, the challenging part of the formula is trying to work out, “What do we want to feed them, that might look after the soil in your garden without actually directly stimulating growth of everything?”

Is there anything else, Steve, that you think?


The HIB27 I think might be linked in as well.

Steve: Yeah, that could be possible.  One other thing, just rewinding a bit, the Gut plays a huge role in your Brain, a lot of people don’t even realise that about 80% of your Serotonin, which is a chemical that makes you feel happy and good, is made in your Gut.  So, if you Gut is disturbed you will get Depression, it’s just a side effect of that.  And, if you’re eating a lot of Rice, which you mentioned you were, that can feed a lot of Anaerobes in there, it can feed some of these nasties that you’re talking about.

So, you’re on the right track, the Gut is where to go, and the problems aren’t all in your head, you’re not making this stuff up, this is very common, Dysbiosis, and that’s why you said, “Furthermore, my Brain Fog and Depression remains.”  That is classic.  Studying Medicine, you would prescribe a Prozac which increases Serotonin in your Brain which stuffs your Gut up.  So, healing the Gut is the way to go here, so Matt’s onto something, and absolutely you’ve got to heal the Gut.

Matt:  I might write up something and email it through too, just to tell him what things to eat.

Jeff: Cool.  Well, there you go, Adrian, so that will be great, Matt.

Matt:  And, send him out some MULTIFOOD.

Steve: Yeah.

Jeff: And, MULTIFOOD.  Too easy.


This one is from Jessica-

Hi Matt and Jeff.  I love listening to your podcasts and find them extremely useful and interesting.  I wanted to get some more advice on Estrogen Dominance.

I’m a 25-year-old and I have the MTHFR Gene defect where my Liver cannot process Estrogen.  This has caused me to develop Migraines, and I have suffered from them for the last two years.  After seeing a Kinesiologist, I got some answers and have now been put on 1 milligram of B12 Methylcobalamin supplement.  This seems to work as I was getting a Migraine once a month, which was linked to my Menstrual cycle, and now, once I got the B12 into my system I went four months without getting one, August 2016 to December 2016.

I recently had another Migraine so went back to the Kinesiologist and he has now put me onto Liver Cleansing tablets, Meta I3C.”

You boys both worked on that, didn’t you?

Steve: Yes.

Matt:  Yeah.

“Which I have just started to take twice a day, as well as Iron and B3 drops twice a day along with my B12.

I’m just wondering if there is anything you could recommend to bring my Estrogen levels down as well as to maintain normal levels as I am looking to start a family and want to get everything on track.

I’m fit and healthy with a balanced Diet, train approximately four to five times a week at 6am with a combination of high intensity training, weight training and walking.  I have been training like this for the past five years and also feel like I should have less fat and be more toned than I currently am.  I seem to hold fat on my hips, lower belly and thighs.  I believe this could be due to Estrogen Dominance.

So, any help and what your thoughts are, or what I can do to try and get rid of the fat would be appreciated.

I also get Heartburn occasionally, which I have not been able to completely get rid of for approximately the last nine months.  I tried Digestive Enzymes and supplements to fix the Bugs in my Gut.  If you have any suggestions on supplements and foods to incorporate into my Diet, and any foods to stay away from, that would be great.

Keep up the good work, Jess.”

Matt:  That’s cool man.  I love this one.

Steve: Yeah.


Matt:  The reason why I love it is because this is what you see all the time.  When you have a look at something like the MTHFR Gene, the Mother Fucker Gene as we refer to it –

Steve: I was going to say that.

Jeff: Matt’s going to take it to the gutter every time.

Matt:  I will because it is one of those, because it leads to all sorts of horrible things like Clots, Breast Cancers, Migraines, all sorts of things like that.

Now, what it’s job is, is converting Folic Acid, which is not found in Nature, it’s actually found in boiled water from boiling plants and that sort of stuff – it’s the broken down degraded form of Folate that your body then has to rebuild as the active form of Folate, and it has to pass through this particular Gene and that Gene doesn’t work, so they’ve got no active Folate.

In the old textbooks, they always talked about how you can always mask a Folate Deficiency with Vitamin B12, because if you give enough B12 you can upregulate the functions that need Folate and you can get four months off from your headaches but then they come back because you’ve just masked your Folate Deficiency.

The MTHFR Gene defect is only a problem who aren’t eating good levels of dietary Folate, because Dietary Folate contains the activated forms of Folate.  The MTHFR Gene Polymorphism is mainly a problem with Fortified Foods and Folic Acid supplementation being your main form of Folate, because they use the synthetic Folic Acid that your body can’t use.

What I’m waffling about is, use a product like MULTIFOOD that’s got all of the forms of Folate found in Nature, and it will bypass that Gene and it will provide the Folate that’s necessary to work with the Methylcobalamin for the MTHFR Gene to possibly work.

The other Cofactors that Gene needs is Vitamin B3, B2 and the other B Vitamins, so take a full B Complex.  You don’t just take B12 and B3 because it knocks all the others out of whack, and as you’ve seen by taking B12 you’ve masked your Folate Deficiency and you’ve bypassed the problem, and the other long term consequences of that defect have kept going even though you prevented your headaches.

So, the MULTIFOOD has the full B Complex, it’s got all the activated forms of Folate in it, so you can drop everything and just stick with your Methyl B12 and your MULTIFOOD and you should have it covered.

Then, what you’re looking for is to encourage Estrogen Detoxification Pathways, and we need to encourage the conversion of the 16-Alpha and 4-Alphahydroxyestrones to the 2-Alpha because that’s where the Methylation actually works.  You’ve got to get the Methylation to get from 2-Alpha to 2-Methoxy.  So, that’s why she’s using Meta I3C, but it doesn’t work as well as the Prime and the Venus.  So, send her one of those.

I’ll tell you the best way to do it; this is the tricky way.  You do 3 MULTIFOOD twice a day, you take 2 ALPHA VENUS for breakfast, and 2 ALPHA PRIME at night, and we’re going to recreate the nice Cortisol wave.  The reason why I’ve gone a half dose of the ALPHA VENUS because she has no evidence of major Progesterone Deficiencies, it’s all Estrogen excess.

Steve: Mm.

Matt:  Can you think of anything else, Stevo?


Steve: Yeah.  I just want to take a step back because most people don’t know what the Mother Fucker Gene is – I can’t even say that on tape.

Matt:  What?

Jeff: I can see you struggling with that.  It doesn’t come naturally.

Matt: Yeah, I whisper the Mother bit too.

Steve: Yeah.  That Gene is in about 30 to 50% of the Australian population, and it’s called, and if you’ve got a pen you can write this down people, 510-Methylenetetradydrofolate reductase.  Did you get that Jeff?  He loves big words.

Jeff: I love it.

Steve: Anyway, that Gene Methylates B12 to turn it into Methylcobalamin, so that’s why this practitioner has said, “We’ll give the Methylcobalamin and bypass all that, which is all great but it’s like covering up, as Matt said, you’re not actually getting to the Biochemistry.  This is in the S-Adenosylmethionine cycle, so you’ve got to get this thing working, not just for your headaches, not just for Estrogen, for all sorts of other things.

Another chemical you should be tested for is Homocysteine.

Matt:  Good idea.

Steve: Because, that could be elevated because you’ve got this problem.  My family has that problem and it was only discovered when my Grandmother developed Alzheimer’s, so I got myself tested years ago.

Matt:  I’ll tell you something crazy, man.

Steve: Yeah?

Mat: There is a particular B Complex that you and I worked on at another company.

Steve: Oh yeah.

Matt:  I was taking that and it had Folic Acid, it had big doses of Folic Acid, big doses of B12 and everything like that.  While taking that daily I got my Homocysteine checked – now, you always want your Homocysteine to be less than 10, you don’t want it over 12 and that, or 15 I think is when they say your Kidneys –

Steve: Well, 5 to 15 is recommended range.

Matt:  Yeah, but you don’t want it over 10, because by the time you are 15 you are in amongst getting damage.  Well, mine was sitting at 18.  I kept taking the B Complex and it got higher.  I went and switched and started using 5-MTHF, the activated form.  At the time products like MULTIFOOD weren’t available so I got a synthetically derived 5-MTHF which bypassed the Gene.  In three weeks, my Homocysteine went from 18 down to 8.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt:  What happens, typically when you get a test of 18, it says, “You have five times the risk of Heart Disease, five times the risk of Stroke, five times the risk of Kidney Disease,” and then I got it down to 8, and my report three weeks later was saying, “You have half the risk of the general population.”  It’s a really cool thing to do for practitioners, you look like a genius.

Steve: If you’re over 6 your Homocysteine I think you’re twice the risk of getting Polymorphisms and problems with Cervical Dysplasia, so you really want that Homocysteine quite low, because it’s quite dangerous.

Matt:  While we’re talking about it, because it’s going to shit me this if I don’t say it, and hopefully when I say this someone in a position of authority hears me because I know you’re listening.  It bugs me, I always ask my girls who are getting ready for pregnancy to measure Homocysteine, because Homocysteine is the reason why people get Neural Tube Defects, and the reason why they say to take Folic Acid.

One in 10 people have a definite MTHFR Polymorphism, and you’ll even see the Ads on TV for the Folic Acid supplements saying, “90% of the time it works,” and that’s because one in 10 people can’t use Folic Acid.


Now, I always argue because I ask the doctors to measure Homocysteine before these girls are ready to have babies so we see what their risk is, and we can also have a chance to see what sort of treatments they’re responding to with Homocysteine.  The other reason why I do it, and not just for the birth defect stuff, but it gives a marker to know who is predisposed to Age Related Disorders, because Homocysteine creates 30% of all the Age-Related Disorders and all the other weird Dementia and shit.

So, if they screened people when they’re thinking of having babies to know which ones are going to have problems and need special forms of Folate, they’d have a marker and they’d also have those same people highlighted who are likely to have Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, Dementia, Cardiovascular Disease.

Steve: Yeah.

Matt:  That’s my little gripe.

Steve: Can I just tell you a little joke that I used to tell my students?

Matt:  Yeah.

Steve: It’s not a very good one.

Matt:  Ohh!


Yeah, go for it.

Steve: But, you’ve heard of Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B3, Niacin, and Folic Acid is Vitamin B9.  I always say to my students it should be called Vitamin B4, and they say, “Well, why should it be called Vitamin B4?” and I say, “Because, you’re supposed to take it before you get pregnant.”

Matt:  Oh, that’s clever.  I always used to say it’s clever because it’s B9 and we use it for Anti-Cancer properties, it will turn things Benign.

Steve: Ohh!  Terrible joke.

Jeff: Gosh, you two are like two peas in a pod.

Matt:  Aren’t we annoying.  Come fishing with us and you’ll see what –

Jeff: People aren’t coming here for the jokes.

Alright, anything else Matt?  Steve?

Matt:  Jokes?

Jeff: No, not jokes.

Steve: What about BLOCK E3 on her –

Matt:  No, stuff her.

No, BLOCK E3 is good. It will help to stop the Estrogen Dominance from holding onto that Fat and Fluid.  Because, what happens, and it’s really smart, you said it, the Estrogen Fat might have been made because you’ve got this Genetic Polymorphism internally, but right now the Estrogen reservoirs on your bum will be making Estrogen and using that Estrogen and not actually allowing us to Detoxify it.  So, yeah butter up with BLOCK E        3 as well.

Jeff: Perfect.

Steve: We don’t want to bombard her.

Matt:  Who cares.  We’re paying it, Jeff pays for these.

Jeff: We’ve got time for one more.  You’re welcome, no problem


This one is from Daniel-

“First off thanks for the constant stream of information every week.  I was addicted after just one listen and I found the information you provide to be helpful in everyday life and for my gym routines, but more so for my overall health which has also improved since you guys came about.  The information you give out freely is invaluable.  Don’t ever underestimate the impact that you’re having on us little guys.”

I appreciate that, Daniel, that’s lovely.

            I’m writing with regards to the effects of Sweeteners and Preservatives, specifically – that’s always a hard word to say – as I’m really struggling to get the last bit of fat off my stomach and upper thighs.

I’m a 27-year-old male, I eat quite clean with a cheat meal once a week.  I consume most of my Carbs at night and/or around my workouts.  My Diet consist of mostly Fats and Proteins, specifically meat.  I have had consistent weight loss for the past 18 months that has taken me from 98 kilos at 176 centimetres tall, and quite a large amount of body fat, down to 78 kilos and a much fitter body.”


“I’m super happy with how far I’ve come, however I just don’t understand why I can’t lose that final layer.  It’s as if no matter how much less food I eat or how much harder I push myself, it just doesn’t want to budge.  My chest and shoulders and arms are really lean and I’m getting leaner but not in those regions.

I currently have your products AMP V, L-CARNITINE PRE-WORKOUT, and then have some other pre-workouts after my Fasted Cardio.”

That brand there, which I won’t mention, I believe it’s got stimulants in it.

Matt:  Cool.

Jeff: Nothing wrong with it, because we’re not going to mention names.

Matt:  No, just in case we’ve got to bag the shit out of something, don’t mention it.

Jeff: Yeah, yeah.

“Post workouts I have a Protein blend with Spinach, Kale, Blueberries, Goji Berries and Milk.  I also have tried BLOCK E3 using it prior to my workouts as well, but it didn’t seem to work, I’m possibly using it wrong?

I have looked over everything I’m currently doing and my question is, are my Diet Soft Drinks, Energy Drinks, what are stopping me?  I regularly have them because they’re a nice pick me up throughout the day.  Are these costing me the final bit of weight loss or is there something else you can suggest I can fix up.

What are the effects of Sweeteners on the body, particularly 951 Aspartame, and 950 Acesulphame Potassium”

Is that ACE-K?

Steve: Yeah, ACE-K.

Jeff: Which, typically is considered to be the nasty one, so I’ll let you maybe talk about that.

“Thanks for taking the time to read through this.  Very much appreciated.  Hey maybe one day end up a Tribe member, and you can show all the results you’ve helped me to create.

Thanks very much, Pearce

A shout out to Elsa for all the background work she does.  This is the second time writing and she has always been so helpful.”

Matt:  Oh, what a suck arse way to get into the Tribe that is.

Jeff: No, he is smart.

Matt:  He’s gone straight to the Chieftain Lady, what do they call that person?

Jeff: Chieftain Lady.

Matt:  Witch Doctor.

Jeff: He knows which side his bread is buttered on.

Matt:  Elsa’s side.

Anyway, let’s have a look at this.

Now quickly, I’ll just mention something about Sweeteners.  I’ve been talking about a theory that I’ve had for a while, and a paper was published in March this year that actually confirmed my theory.

One thing we need to understand is it’s not just the chemical ones or the Natural ones, we’ll refer to them as Non-Nutritive Sweeteners, they have very similar effects.

Jeff: And, we’re not anti them.

Steve: No.

Matt:  No, you’ve just got to understand what they do.

Jeff: Especially like Stevia, for myself personally, but they do have an impact.

Matt:  Well, they have an effect.  So, for someone that wants an Insulin spike they can help with that for Muscle growth and Hypertrophy, Hyper-trophy.  Otherwise, if they need to drop their Blood Sugar in case of Diabetes and those sorts of things.


The reason why they do that is because there are sweet taste buds on your tongue, you know that, because things taste sweet.  There are also sweet taste buds further down your Digestive Tract in case you dodged your tongue, and there are also the exact same sweet taste buds on your Pancreas, and then again in your body in your Fat Cells, your Fat Cells have sweet taste buds or a sweet tooth.

They’ve done studies where they’ve injected Sweeteners to bypass the Gastrointestinal Tract and it activated the sweet taste receptors on Fat Cells and told Fat Cells to hold onto Fat, and at the same time it sends a message to the body to say to secrete Insulin.  So, what happens, when you have a Sweetener your body thinks Sugar’s coming through, you’ll get some release of Insulin and your Insulin will signal that, “There is Sugar available, don’t burn Fat.”  That will happen for a period of time, and then if your body realises there is no Sugar then it will

Steve: No Sugar coming in.

Matt:  And, sometimes that’s enough to slow down that last little bit.  So, there is an effect of Sweeteners on your Metabolism, and what it does is it secretes Insulin, tells your body to Burn Sugar, not Fat.

Jeff: So, Matt, just paraphrasing; you would say that Sweeteners might slow down your Fat Loss, but it shouldn’t stop it completely though?

Matt:  No.  And, it also depends on the person, it depends on your degree of Insulin Sensitivity or Resistance, Body Composition, so Muscle Mass and Fat Mass ratios.  So, the guys with bugger all Fat and a lot of Muscle it has negligible effects.

Another thing quickly, I picked up out of here, the Spinach and the Kale.  When you do regular Spinach and Kale raw put into juices you can actually get quite a bit of Toxic Goitrogens, these things called Isothiocyanates where we get a lot of these compounds that actually inhibit Thyroid Hormone Function.  So, just mix that up a little bit, don’t get into a pattern of every day doing Spinach and Kale, and particularly Kale is the worst, man.  And, when you’re having it raw like that in a juice you are taking Megadoses that you wouldn’t normally get if you were chewing it up, eating it, or cooking it or steaming it.  So, just be aware of that and mix that up as well.

The BLOCK E3, yes you were using it wrong.  The way BLOCK E3 works is you need to do it twice a day, best after a shower.  BLOCK E3 actually contains a compound called Chrysin, and Chrysin competes with Androgens for its Aromatase Enzyme and it blocks it and jams it all up, and it can stop the conversion of Testosterone to Estrogen, but the key is, you want a steady delivery of Chrysin, so you’ve better off doing it twice a day.  It has no impact if you do it pre-workout, so it’s morning and night.

And, based on our information about DOMS, using BLOCK E3 pre-workout, may be a bad idea for Muscle growth because if its inhibiting the conversion of Testosterone to Estrogen, which is an important part of Muscle growth, well we don’t want to do that, just do it morning and night, and isolate it to the Fat bits only.  Just put it onto those Fat rolls.  What you’ll probably find is you’ve burnt off all your Visceral Fat, you’ve burnt off all your easy Fat, and you’ve got this stupid stubborn Fat that’s been there forever, with a terrible blood supply, almost dead when it comes to nerves, just sitting there holding Fat.


You’ve got to use the serums, so you’ve got to do the BLOCK E3 twice a day after showers, do SUBCUT straight over the top of that, but do SUBCUT pre-workout.

Jeff: Yes.

Steve: Yes.

Matt:  It’s SUBCUT you want to butter up with before you train.  And, avoid Sweeteners whenever you can because they’re tricking your body into thinking there’s Sugar.  You’ve got to realise Energy can’t be created nor destroyed merely transferred.  If you take something that has no Energy in the form of Carbohydrates, Fat and Protein, so there’s no Calories in it, but you get this abundance of Energy, so you’ve got to ask yourself where it’s coming from, and normally it’s because it’s breaking down Muscle because your body has been told not to Burn Fat because of the Sweeteners.

Jeff: So, BLOCK E3, SUBCUT.  Anything else, Matt?

Matt:  You could do some other things, but really, I think that will do.  I really think that, and maybe replace his AMP V, so he can keep working on that because it will work.  The creams are the ones that are going to work.  And yeah, the Sweeteners could definitely have an impact, you don’t really know until you go without for a while.

Jeff: Also, I guess, it depends on how much you’re having as well.  If you’re having one or two drinks outside training times, especially if you’re having them with Protein or something, then the impact might not be as large, Matt?



That’s right.
Matt:  Yeah, that’s it.  Or, with meals is more to the point.  If, for example, you have a Sweetener with Carbs then what’s happening – if you’re having Carbohydrates that are extra Sweet, you do get an exaggerated Insulin release which helps to drop that Sugar and push that Sugar into the Muscles.  That’s why a lot of those enhanced athletes – they’re doing the Insulin and the Carbs to drive the thing, so that Insulin spike associated with a Carbohydrate can help deliver the Sugar to the Muscle if they’re not Insulin Resistant.  So, that’s one way of doing it.  It’s not necessarily a bad thing if you have it with meals, you just don’t want to do it as pre-workouts, and you don’t want to do it when your body is in Fat Burning mode, because it’s going to put a bit of a handbrake on your Fat Burning.

Jeff: Cool.  So, BLOCK E3, SUBCUT and I’ll send out the AMP V, and see how we go.

Matt:  Yeah, do that.

Jeff: Look, we’ve got one left, it’s only a little one.  I was going to end it there, but let’s do this one really quick, guys.

Matt:  Yeah, let’s do it.


This one is from Adele-

“Hi guys, love the podcasts.  I’m thinking of purchasing PROTOTYPE 8 and was wondering if, as well I should be using it for its intended purposes, I could use it for Bad Circulation in my Hands when it’s cold.”

Matt:  Yes.

Jeff: “I think it might be also Stress Related because sometimes it happens when I’m not particularly cold.  My Hands become yellow and it’s as though the Blood just stops flowing to my fingers and they feel very numbI’m 24 years old, and this has been happening for as long as I can remember.  I was wondering if you could also suggest anything I could include in my Diet, thanks so much, Adele.”

So, Matt?

Matt:  Yeah man, of course, PROTOTYPE 8 increases Circulation.  It was originally made in my Naturopath clinic to treat Diabetics with Foot Ulcers, and they used it as a moisturiser where they just rubbed it past the sites of injury to open up the Blood Vessels beyond the area where they had no Circulation.


Jeff: The one that we’ve spoken about before is the truck driver who used it.  He was in the gym but he had Restless Legs and couldn’t drive for very long, and he whacked it onto his legs and was able to drive, I think, a six or eight-hour shift before he –

Matt:  Yeah, no Pain, no Fluid Retention.  That’s what it’s for, that was originally what it was for, it’s just a Circulatory Stimulant.  Butter up.

Jeff: But, is this a sign of something deeper?

Matt:  No, this is bugging me, because it was only yesterday that I was reading about the yellow skin.

Steve: It could be Raynaud’s Disease.  I don’t know if you’ve heard of that one.  That’s a common discolouration of the Hands due to poor Circulation.

Jeff: How do you spell Raynaud’s.

Steve: Raynaud’s.  And, it’s capital R.

Matt:  But, they’ve got those massive dilated – the main feature with that is those big thick Arteries, so if your hands look like Google Maps with these big thick purple discoloured Arteries with the soft tissue around that having an off colour, slightly yellow.  Man, it’s bugging the hell out of me, if I find this thing that I was reading yesterday, because I was only reading about something yesterday but it was irrelevant at the time and I just glanced over it, and I forgot what I read.  So, I’m going to find it, it’s going to bug the shit out of me.

Jeff: Anything else, Steve?

Steve: Foods that are rich in Arginine, typically Nuts, to keep it really simple and easy.

Jeff: The nice thing is, the NOWAY has the Arginine in there.  I’ll send one of those out too.  Now, Arginine on its own, as Matt says, hits the stomach and blows up in the Arteries and all the rest of it, but because it’s actually delivered in a Peptide form it seems to get out to the periphery and actually works really well.

Matt:  It bypasses it.

Jeff: So, the PROTOTYPE 8 has the Arginine which is going in trans-dermally, the NOWAY –

Matt:  Citrulline Malate is one of my favourite Vasodilators for the periphery, because Citrulline bypasses First Pass Metabolism, there’s no conversion issues, and it basically goes to the Kidneys and floats around in the Systemic Circulation, and then when your hands get signals to say they need more Oxygen they send a signal to get Aspartate and join it up with Citrulline and make Arginine in your body.  So, you can do it that way too.  But, use the PROTOTYPE because it will work.


Jeff: So, we’ll send her a NOWAY and we’ll send out a Citrulline, Matt.

Matt:  It’s going to bug me this yellow thing, though.

Jeff: You think about that, and if you can get back to Adele – Steve, anything else?

Steve: Look, obviously, exercise, wearing gloves at night to bed, which sounds a bit romantic, but that’s what you do.

Matt:  Romantic?

Jeff: Yeah, Steve you’re definition of romance –

Steve: Yeah, Anti-romance, I was being a bit sarcastic.

Jeff: Oh, you were being sarcastic.  I was going to say, “What do you do with your gloves?”  Would they be furry with maybe some sequins or something?

Steve: Yes, absolutely.

Matt:  I don’t know, they just clip into the back of the bed.


Steve: But no, that’s the way to do it, of course.  But, P8 is the best way.

Jeff: That’s right.  My gloves are beautiful, they’re Velcro for the sheep.


Jeff: Sorry Matt, what were you going to say?

Matt:  Nothing anymore.  We’ll just leave it at that.

Jeff: On the high point.

Matt:  Are you sharing that sheep?

Jeff: Mate, I don’t share my sheep with anyone.


So, thanks Steve, thanks Matt.  Thanks for listening to the 100th podcast.  Again, if you’re enjoying it guys –

Matt:  And, if anyone can find the missing podcast you win something.

Jeff: Well, I’m going to go looking for that now, I don’t know what’s going on.  But anyway guys, thanks for listening, and please if you’re enjoying it and you haven’t had a chance yet, or you haven’t done it, you lazy buggers, go and give us a rating if you’re enjoying it, that would be great.

Matt:  Oh yeah.

Jeff: Thanks for listening guys, and we’ll be back next week.

Steve: Thank you.

Matt:  Thank you.