ATP Science Episode 44 Diuretics & Fluid Retention


Welcome to the ATP Project, Episode 44 – Diuretics and Fluid Retention.

• Bloating, Swelling and Puffy things.
• Relationship of Thyroid and Fluid Retention
• Cortisol
• Estrogen
• The Lymphatic System
• Pitting Oedema
• Circulation
• Uric Acid
• And ways to treat these problems
• FAQs

Stay tuned, the ATP Project is about to start.

Welcome to the ATP Project. You’re with your hosts Matt and Jeff.

Jeff: What are you laughing for?

Matt: I don’t know. This is going to be a big one.

Jeff: Okay Matt, today we’re talking about Fluid Retention, all things puffy, Bloating and Swelling; sounds great!

Matt: Maybe that’s why I was laughing, I knew that was coming.

Jeff: Matt, Fluid Retention? Well, we know what that is, that’s just water and stuff, fluid?

Matt: Yeah, ‘retented’. Yeah, so basically you’re holding water, but where you hold it can give us an indication of why you hold it, and unless you know the why you can’t fix it.

We’re getting a lot of questions about different types of Swelling or Fluid Retention, Circulation problems, and I’ve noticed a lot of people in The Tribe are all trying the dry skin brushing and all that sort of stuff. So, there’s a lot to cover, and the important thing is, we all get different types of Fluid Retention at different stages, and just understanding why and how…

Jeff: So, what’s the most common form of Fluid Retention, Matt? I always think of Swollen Ankles.

Matt: Yeah, that’s popular, they love that, they call it ‘Cankles.’

Jeff: So ‘Cankles’, why do people get ‘Cankles’ and Swollen Wrists and Fingers and Toes?

Matt: That’s the extremities. So, when they’re getting swelling in the fingers and the toes and that sort of stuff we’re looking at a Circulatory Problem, so they’re struggling with their delivery of Oxygen and Nutrients out to the extremities, and therefore also struggling with their Venous Return, taking that Waste and that away.

Jeff: Right.

Matt: So, that can come from Cardiovascular Disease, so it could be a Cardiovascular Disease. Oh, put in a disclaimer Joffre, because this is the time that we want to let people know that all types of Fluid Retention, potentially, could be a sign that you’re about to die and you probably should go and see your doctor and double check it’s not one of the sinister ones.

Jeff: What are the sinister ones?

Matt: Well, Cardiovascular Diseases and those sorts of thing. Make sure that there’s no Cardiovascular Disease, Congestive Heart Failure, because Fluid Retention is one of those symptoms that we look at as a tip of an iceberg, we can see it, it’s an obvious sign that something is happening, but it’s just a side effect of something that’s happening inside your body. It may be something small but it could also be something nasty. So, go and check those sort of things out, and if it’s something that’s happening constantly or regularly, or doesn’t change very quickly check it out anyway so you don’t come back and sue us because we did a podcast on Fluid Retention and didn’t tell you to go to the doctor.

Jeff: Yeah, so if you’ve got Fluid Retention go and see your doctor, there you go.

Matt: Yeah, a good disclaimer.

Jeff: And, is Fluid Retention all the same, the same on the left side and the right side? If it’s on the right side, it’s more…

Matt: Well, they’re good questions. So, basically, what you’ll find, if you’ve got Cardiovascular Disease it will be symmetrical, you’ll get swelling in both hands and both feet, predominantly, unless you’ve got one major chunk in an artery. For example; people with a DVT, they actually get a clot in that one leg or something, and you can get one leg that will swell up; that’s a sign to quickly go and do something about it. So, when you getting just one leg swelling or something like that, that’s a sign there’s a blockage somewhere in that limb, that’s often a bad sign and you want to go and check that out.

So, typically you can get Lymphatic Congestion that will swell on one side because you may have a blockage in a Lymph Node, and with Lymphatic Congestion, basically, the whole leg will swell up; like the whole leg, and it backlogs from the top and ends up down the bottom because Lymphatic Congestion it’s got all the valves in the Ingurial are and the Groin and the Armpits, so your legs and that will swell up from the top and then backlog.

Jeff: Wow!

Matt: But, with Venous Swelling, if you’ve got a DVT, the whole limb will swell up and it hurts a lot if you squeeze on it and that sort of stuff.

Jeff: Venous? What do you mean by Venous?

Matt: Venous? Oh, Veins, so Deep Vein Thrombosis.

Jeff: Right.

Matt: So, that’s a DVT and that, basically, means that the Veins are struggling to pump the stuff back and the blood accumulates and can clot, and then everything from there gets stuck, everything behind it gets stuck but then can also screw around with Circulation going beyond that point.

Jeff: Really? Toni once trained calves one time and absolutely smashed the living daylights out of them, and I don’t know what happened, but the next day she woke up and one of her calves was all swollen and really tender to touch and blown up, so obviously that was that, right?

Matt: Yeah. And, this is another type of Fluid Retention that can also occur from Trauma, so Injury. So, with Sports Injuries and that sort of stuff you can get a Swelling, but it’s usually associated with a torn Muscle and that sort of stuff, and then you go and speak to the doctors and physios and that, and they’ll go through and do some testing and go, “Okay, no it’s Muscular. You’ve sprained that Muscle and this is an Inflammatory Swelling and then you treat that with ice and that sort of stuff.

DVTs can do exactly the same thing, though, so someone can have a clot and that can actually backlog and that whole calf can swell up. Typically, very hot, swollen, changes colour, it’s very painful, if you squeeze it it’s like you can’t go anymore, so basically, those sorts of things are quite dangerous.
If you’ve got just Poor Circulation, though, what happens is you start getting a lot of Fluid Retention just in the hands and the feet. Typically, you go for a walk in the morning and then all your fingers are swelling up or on hot days, it’s bizarre. But, with Poor Circulation you get a lot of Fluid Retention and you typically get Cold Hands and Feet. So, if you’ve got Poor Circulation you can be cold and then all of a sudden you get this swelling and that sort of thing.

Jeff: My mum used to say, “Cold hands warm heart,” but that’s not…

Matt: That’s probably because the blood is stuck in her heart, she’s not pumping it out to her cold evil fingers.

Jeff: Oh shit.

Matt: Take that, Robeena.

Jeff: Gees, how dare you Sir?

Matt: She doesn’t listen to our podcasts does she?

Jeff: Yes, she does.

Matt: Oh, sorry Robeena.

Jeff: Don’t worry about it Mum.

Matt: That was Jeffie who scripted that.

Jeff: I did not. Right.

Matt: So, what were we talking about? Robeena being evil?

Jeff: No.

Matt: Oh, warm heart cold fingers?

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: So, basically, the blood’s not in the hands, so they’re assuming it’s stuck in their heart somewhere and keeping all the warmth there.

So, with Poor Circulation you’ll often find other circulatory signs: Varicose Veins, Raynaud’s Phenomenon, you know like the swollen blue blood vessels trying to suck some blood through. You’ll get a lot of circulatory signs like that, typically Cold, Numbness, Tingling, that sort of thing, and worse after rest and improved with movement, that Cold and Numbness and Tingling with the movement it will get a bit more blood flow there—and, you get a lot of pins and needles and that sort of thing.

When you see someone that’s got Poor Circulation that’s leading to Fluid Retention then we go down to the next step and go, “Right, Cardiovascular signs, let’s go and have a look to see if it’s Cardiovascular Disease: any signs of Congestive Heart Failure, or other blood congestion, any signs of Blood Pressure issues, Cholesterols, you know, we’ll go through that whole Cardiovascular risk assessment profile and do some assessments and that sort of thing that way.

The other causes for Poor Circulation is a sluggish Thyroid. So, if your Thyroid is a little bit slow you get Poor Circulation and then you get this generalised Fluid Retention everywhere, because you get a lot of Fluid Retention with Thyroid, but it’s usually generalised, it’s kind of everywhere. You’ll get the Vascular Swelling as well as the Hormonal Swelling, you puff out everywhere, and that’s how you know if it’s Thyroid as well.

Estrogen can also screw up you Circulation, but you’ll typically find it will be coming in towards those 10 days before the Period. In women they’ll be getting Stickier Blood, that’s when Varicose Veins can start to hurt or swell, that’s when they get a lot of Fluid Retention, a lot of Bloating. What you’ll find in that case, with Estrogen, you’ll find two different types of swelling: you’ll find the Vascular Swelling from the Poor Circulation that’s happening in the extremities, then you’ll also find the swelling that’s occurring in and around the Abdomen associated with the Sticky Blood and everything there. And, also, you’ll find the swelling in the Breast Tissue and that sort of stuff, so they get Swollen Breast Tissue from the Estrogen.
So, you can go through and analyse it. People listening might be going, “Gee, so far I’m ticking a lot of these.” Because, what happens, and this is what we always talk about, is if the Thyroid is a bit sluggish the Estrogen tends to go high, so you can have mildly Slow Thyroid that causes mild Estrogen Elevation that results in Poor Circulation, and then you’ll get the Oedemas and that sort of stuff, so you’ll see the patterns.

Another Hormone that can cause Fluid Retention is Cortisol, and I’m just mentioning it because we’re talking about Hormones at the moment, but you can tell if you’re getting Fluid Retention from Cortisol because it’s in your Internal Organs. So, Cortisol will actually make you swell up in the middle like ball with arms and legs. So, the point is, with Cortisol, if you’ve had chronic exposure to high Cortisol your body doesn’t know what the Stress is and doesn’t know if it’s an inescapable Stress and you’re about to get your leg ripped off or something like that, so it preservers a lot of Fat and Fluid in around your Internal Organs in case you need it for survival, just go through a phase of famine.

Jeff: And, do these sorts of things come and go, Matt, or are these things that are worse at other points, like that Bloating around the middle?

Matt: Yeah, the Estrogen stuff will definitely be associated…

Jeff: Obviously cyclical?

Matt: Yeah, with the Menstrual Cycle. The Cortisol is associated with Stress, Over Training—you know how you see some guys they just train really, really hard and all of sudden they’re going, “Man, the scales are going the other way, and I’m feeling so Bloated,” and everything like that, so sometimes if you go through a phase of increased physical demand stacked with stimulants and all of a sudden the Cortisol is starting to hold a lot of that Fluid. Interestingly with Cortisol, where we often feel it most is in around the Neck, that’s that puffy in around the Scalene and in behind the Clavicle and everything there that makes you feel Fluidy, and the double chins and that sort of stuff, or in and around the Internal Organs, like the top of the Stomach, those sort of things; we just feel Bloated and Full, and all of sudden you just don’t feel right, or look right.

Jeff: So, what about things like Lymphatic Drainage, Lymphatic Massage, Matt, what about that? Because, I mean that’s a different effect, right?

Matt: The way Lymph flows—you know how I was talking about the Circulation, you’ve got your Heart beating behind it, and so as the Heart beats the Arteries pump the blood out and then it gets to the end and then it comes back up through your Veins. The Veins have got these little valves and things like that, that allow the blood to come back up and not shoot back down, but they’re little tunnels. Lymphs are different. All the extra Cellular Fluids and everything in between all of our Cells, and they drain into our Lymph Nodes. The way we clear our Lymph is through Muscle Contractions, so the actual Lymph, as we get Muscle Contractions, it just squeezes the intercellular spaces and that squishes the stuff in a certain direction and it always go back towards the Heart, so it’s got to squeeze it back, but you need Muscle Contractions.

The most common cause of Lymphatic Congestion is a Sedentary Life, Office Work, and that sort of stuff will cause Congestion in the Lymph Nodes. So, there’s a lot of Lymph Nodes in around the Groin, so if you’ve got a Toxic Bowel or if there’s a lot of Toxicity coming from Hormonal problems and that sort of stuff, then the legs are predisposed to a lot of Lymphatic Congestion. Legs, in particular, get it so much worse all the time because there is so much happening in and around that Pelvic region that the Lymph Nodes are having to deal with all of those Immune Complexes and all that rubbish and send it off to your Spleen.

Jeff: It’s funny, because I noticed, when I was younger and working in the supplement store, a lot of people would come in, you know, figure and fitness models and things like that, and some of them would have unbelievable upper bodies, just amazing, almost better than normal, but then they had really Fluidy legs, and it didn’t seem to matter what they did, Matt, they just could not shift that water. It was like their upper body didn’t match their lower body.

Matt: Yeah. What you can find, especially when you see Asymmetries like that, you go, “Well, it shouldn’t be that Heart, because I mean the Heart is controlling the Circulation everywhere, and if it was one leg you might have a clot or you might have a lump or something in the way, but typically what happens is a combination of things. So, what can happen, a lot of Lower Back Trauma, Inflammation, Stress—you know that pump you get in that Lower Back when you do leg days and things like that, that can just shut that down?

Jeff: Mm.

Matt: That can really screw with your ability to drain waste out of your legs and all that sort of thing. So, basically, what can happen is, you can get a combination of things, again: you can have slightly Slower and Poorer Circulation, or you might have a slight Estrogen Dominance, then all of a sudden you might be building up extra Water Soluble Waste in the legs, because there’s some massive large Muscle groups there, a big thick Muscle bundle, they can build up a lot of Water Soluble Metabolic Waste in the process of training, a lot of things like Uric Acid and Ammonia and other Waste, Lactic Acid, of course. A lot of those things will hold a lot of water into that area and then all it takes is for you to have a sluggishness in around that Pelvic region—that’s why I love Chinese Medicine stuff, even though I don’t always use all the Chinese Herbs, I love the way they describe some of these things, they talk about Stagnation in certain areas, linking in to Kidney Chi and all that sort of thing, and it all links in with Cortisol and everything perfectly.

But, basically, what can happen is, you’ve got all the Hormonal stuff, all the Bowel stuff, you’ve got all that Lower Back stuff, you’ve got everything like that, everything is happening in around the Pelvic region and then everything just backlogs down through the legs. So, what they can do is do some Lymphatic sort of drainage—a heap of customers coming through at one stage, I used to do this little Lymphatic Drainage, I had a lot of little frequency machines and I used to do this little Lymphatic Drainage where you just hit these little points in around the Inguinals and open it up and all of a sudden all this stuff flows out. We had people who were struggling to put their pants on when they came in, not even undoing them, and they had to keep getting up and going to the toilet during the treatment.

Jeff: Yeah, right.

Matt: But, basically, all you do with Lymphatic is, you’ve got to remember you’ve got to clear the way first, otherwise it backlogs. So, anytime you’re trying to clear away Lymphatics—let’s just focus on the legs, you’ve got to start in and around that Groin, you’ve got to start in the upper legs, so you’ve got to go through all the thighs and hamstrings and that first before you get to the back of knee, and then, all the stuff behind the knee you can open up the Lymph Nodes there and get them to drain somewhere, because if you start at the feet it can’t go anywhere.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s right, it’s got nowhere to go. Gotcha.

Matt: Oh Man, another thing with the Lymphatic, and interesting fact—well I find it interesting…

Jeff: I’ll be the judge of that.

Matt: Yeah, you’ll be the judge. You know when you get bitten by a snake?

Jeff: Yes.

Matt: Good, I’m glad you said that because…

Jeff: You had nowhere to go, right?

Matt: I had one I prepared earlier. Yeah, “Sit there snake.” Shh.

So, basically, you know how they say you can’t move when you get bitten by a snake, like stay still?

Jeff: Right.

Matt: It’s because snake venom doesn’t go into your bloodstream, it goes through the Lymphatics. So, that’s why they’re saying, “It’s all about demobilising the limb.” Now, what they’re saying is, “It’s all about just splints, immobilising, don’t move,” because you just want to keep the poison in the Lymphatics. So, the new way they’re saying is to tourniquet pretty much above the leg, but that only stops the blood flow, so then the whole plan is, to go back and push the poison back down the leg, for example, and hold it in the Lymphatics as far away from the Heart as possible.

Jeff: Right.

Matt: Yeah, wild eh, because it travels through the Lymphatics.

Jeff: And, don’t get excited. So, you’ve just been bitten by a snake, so don’t…

Matt: Oh, just relax, it’s awesome. Just chill out.

Jeff: Yeah, wait and have a Meitei or something.

Matt: Yeah, just lie there and enjoy the view, look at the sky through the trees. That’s the last thing you’re going to see.

Jeff: The last thing you’ll see, yeah.

Matt: This podcast is in Australia too, by the way, so we’re not even joking.

Jeff: Well, the interesting thing is, Matt, and I don’t know if you know this, but I think we have the top 10 most deadly snakes in the world.

Matt: Yeah, we’re awesome like that.

Jeff: I think we’re the only ones with the black snake, and the Western Taipan, I think that’s it.

Matt: Yeah, well. And, then we can’t even kill a Cane Toad!

Jeff: What about Pitting Edema? That’s another one we were talking about before, that’s a bit different.

Matt: Pitting Edema, what that talks about is actual Swelling in the—it’s like Cellular Swelling, it’s like Tissue Damage, sort of thing. That’s where you get a lot of Fluid Retention in between our Cells, and Pitting Edema, basically means, if you push it in with your thumb and where you pushed it in it leaves a dent.

Jeff: Yeah, right. And, does it go white as well?

Matt: I don’t know.

Jeff: No, you know how you skin discolours but it doesn’t go back to the normal…

Matt: Well it makes a dent, I don’t know so much about a colour change. So, if you do that with your fingernails, if you push the fingernails everything goes white, and then how quickly it comes back depends on how good your Capillary Return is, so it talks about your Circulation. So, we should pretty much push it white, which hopefully we’re all doing right now unless you’re driving.

Jeff: I’m doing it.

Matt: Yeah, me too. And, then it comes back instantly pink, so I’m Well Hydrated, I’ve got good Circulation.

Jeff: Yeah, me too.

Matt: Man, I could be a hand model, look at those hands Joffre.

Jeff: Get a look at these fingers, Matt.

Matt: Oh my God, they’re ugly fingers. What have you done?

Jeff: I’ve broken fingers, I think.

Matt: Were you a thief or something?

Jeff: I don’t know. They’re all like Mr Squiggle fries or something. Anyway…

Matt: So, Pitting Edema commonly comes from Trauma, but what happens is, you’re getting all of this Fluid that’s pouring out of your Vasculature with all sorts of chemicals, everything is coming out, and you get a lot of Swelling in around your Cells and it’s all Fluidy and Puffy and stuff. And, when you push it in it leaves a dent, and it’s a sign of multiple things.

It can be a sign of Poor Capillaries, very weak Capillaries where Fluid is constantly just falling out of the Arteries. So, if you’re getting Pitting Edema typically in and around the Ankles and it’s happening all the time then there’s a fair chance that your Blood Vessels aren’t capable of holding the water in them very well, which can happen with High Blood Pressure, but it can also happen with Poor Capillaries. But, that’s a sign that you’re predisposed to a lot of Cardiovascular problems or in amongst some Cardiovascular issues.
But, for Pitting Edema we want to look at improving the integrity of your Blood Vessels and also taking away a lot of this Inflammation that’s occurring from typically Immune Mediated Inflammation. So, one of my favourite Herbs for that is Quercetin, Quercetin is a really cool Herb.

Jeff: Doesn’t that keep the mosquitos away? What’s in the…

Matt: That’s Vitamin B1, Thiamine keeps mozzies away.

Jeff: Does it?

Matt: Yeah, it comes out in the skin.

Jeff: What’s in Tonic Water, what’s that?

Matt: Bubbles. Bubbles and a straw.

Jeff: And, Gin.

Matt: Gin, yeah. Otherwise you’re doing it wrong.

Jeff: Yeah. I thought there was something it that they have in Indian Tonic Water which is—I thought it was Quercetin.

Matt: I don’t know, it sounds exciting, whatever you’re talking about.

Jeff: Oh, I don’t know. Anyway. So, that’s an interesting thing.

Matt: I’m glad that wasn’t a question. Yeah, I don’t know. So yeah, Pitting Edema, it’s the one they used to call Dropsy which used to affect old people when they had Poor Circulation and the next thing you know they’re struggling to control their limbs and things like that because they don’t have any blood there. But, don’t be alarmed if you get it.

Jeff: It’s easy to fix?

Matt: Just refer back to the disclaimer. No, it’s one of those things that can either be associated with Acute Trauma—you know, things like Cellulitis, Inflammation, other Traumas and that sort of stuff, or it’s associated with slow and steady long term Cardiovascular issues.

Jeff: Mm.

Matt: Yeah, so depending on which one it is.

I’ll tell you some tricks to get rid of Fluid Retention.

Jeff: Yeah, well I was going to say, we need to talk about maybe some supplements, maybe some basic exercises.

Matt: Oh yeah. So, everyone knows about Lymphatic Drainage, but what it is—because we’re all hippies we’re using a vegetable bristle brush or something like that, or loofah or something natural, which is what we always say. I don’t know why I’ve always said that, but probably because I’m a hippie. And, what you do is, you’ve got to go towards the heart, okay? So, you start at the top, so if you’re doing it in your legs, start—I just touched my shoulder—but anyway, just these little—I’m doing like a hand wave, I’m the Queen waving here, so just imagine the Queen waving—so, you’re just doing these little brushing motions always aiming back to the Heart. Don’t worry about the Veins and the Blood Vessels they can only go one way, but het Lymphatic we’ve got to encourage it to back towards the Heart all the time. So, start at the top, work your way down to behind the knees, do a fair bit around behind the knees and everything before you go down to the lower leg, but all those little brushing things, and just imagine you’re pushing the Toxins upstream, back up towards the Heart, back up towards the Lymph Nodes to drain away.

Jeff: Mm.

Matt: So, Lymphatic Drainage is a good way to both improve Circulation and improve Venous Congestion, and help get rid of the Lymphatic Waste.

Jeff: Next time I have a shower, Matt, I might get you to show me how.

Matt: No.
Uric Acid is another interesting one I wanted to mention, because I know how to get rid of it; I like things that I know how to get rid of.

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: Uric Acid is a weird Water Soluble Waste and it typically accumulates around joints. So, what you’ll find is, in around the Knee Joints, in around the Ankles, the Elbows, Armpits, Groin, those sort of places is where the Uric Acid accumulates and holds a heap of water. So, for the guys that are preparing for Comp there’s a really sneaky trick we can do to dry out around the Joint, which makes the Joint look smaller, which sounds weird, but it actually improves Definition at the origin and the insertions of your Muscles. So, when we’re looking at striations everyone gets a feathering through the belly of the Muscle.

Jeff: Mm, I do.

Matt: But, it’s really important to get that Definition at the origins and the insertions so you can actually see each—you can see the full Muscle separated from the others, and Uric Acid is bugger because it gets in the way and it holds water in around those Joints.

Jeff: And, Uric Acid is just a by-product, a Waste of exertion, is it, or what?

Matt: Exercise and Protein.

Jeff: Yeah, right.

Matt: So, you’ve probably got a fair bit.

Jeff: Yeah, and Uric Acid is obviously a precursor to other things like Gout. Right?

Matt: Yeah, exactly. And, a lot of guys will come into Gout, especially if they hit the Keto Phase trying to cut up and that sort of stuff. The way to clear out Uric Acid is using things like Celery Seeds.

Jeff: Yeah. They’re a good Diuretic, anyway.

Matt: Yeah, they get rid of most Fluid Retention. But, the thing is—and, I’m glad you said that—there are a lot of Diuretics we can get in and they’re going to keep you weeing and removing some of this Fluid, but you’ve got to always try to find the cause because it could be Thyroid, Cortisol, Estrogen, Cardiovascular Disease. It’s one thing to keep taking the Fluid away, but it’s another thing to try to find out why you’ve got the Fluid then you don’t have to get rid of it.

Jeff: That’s right.

Matt: Because, this is just a sign or a symptom of something else.

Jeff: That something else is not good. And, I think that’s what a lot of companies rely on, “Oh well, you’ve got Fluid Retention so therefore, “You should get Juniper Root and Celery Seeds, and keep taking them through your cycle,” “No, actually, hang on, if we fix your Thyroid you could be good.”

Matt: Yeah, but you only sell one product then, but you can put someone on a Diuretic for the rest of their life.

But, I’m glad you said all that, all those things you just said you can put them in the food. So, Parsley is a really good one, Rosemary is a really good one, Asparagus is good, Juniper Berries, Celery Seeds, Rosella Flowers—I love them. Yeah, they’re all really good things, and they’ll help to strip out that Uric Acid and get a lot of improved Definition on the origins and insertions of your Muscles.

Jeff: A lot of people, especially in The States too, utilise Diuretics that are harmful, Matt. Do you want to talk a little bit about the side effects of harmful ways to remove Fluid out of the body, and I’m talking specifically about Sodium, Calcium, Electrolytes, all that sort of stuff?

Matt: I’m glad you asked that too. You’re on fire today.

Jeff: Mm.

Matt: The thing is, everyone uses it because they see this Fluid Retention, and where do they see it, they see it around their bloody Joints. Most of the Pharmaceutical Diuretics are designed to strip out Sodium, they work on the Sodium Potassium Pump, and they strip out the Sodium and with that goes the water, and you know, you’ve heard yourself, everyone talking, “Oh, how much Sodium is in your capsules?” you know, everyone is obsessed with Sodium because they think it’s causing this Fluid Retention; it spins me out. And, how many times I’ve gone to show people who to strip out Uric Acid and then they’re coming into Comp, “Oh, I didn’t even need Diuretics this time.” They never had a Sodium issue, they don’t eat Sodium. Seriously, to have a Sodium Retention problem, it’s caused by Elevated Cortisol in some situations, otherwise Renal Disease associated with Cardiovascular Disease or Blood Pressure problems, unless you just eat a bucket load of Salt. But most people are limiting their Salt intake while smashing out buckets of—well, most of our listeners and most of the people we work with they don’t eat that much Salt, and they drink a lot of water; more people are Sodium Deficient than they are Excess. But, the Uric Acid is holding he water and then they’re taking Sodium Depleting Diuretics.

What happens then is, you can’t hold water in your body, you can’t maintain Blood Pressure, and you combine that with Dehydration and Gravity, and all of a sudden your Heart is going, “Man, I can’t pump this sludge around. I can’t dilute my blood enough to get to all the gaps if you won’t let me hold Sodium in here.” That’s why you’ve got to hit the Sodium cleverly, and do it properly. Like, Dandelion Leaf, for example, Dandelion Leaf is one of my favourite Diuretics for two reasons: it works on the Sodium Potassium Pump and what it does is it helps to strip out the Sodium—so, it works like a Diuretic based on the Sodium mechanism, but it’s also what we call Potassium Sparing. Most Diuretics you can actually lead to Potassium Deficiency, and Dandelion is one of the very few ones that’s very cool; it contains enough Potassium in the leaf extract itself to correct a Potassium Deficiency while it’s stripping out the Sodium and causing the Fluid Retention to leave. It’s got to be Dandelion Leaf.

Jeff: Every time we talk about this I think to myself, “You know what? I should just go for a frolic through the fields and just go and grab some—you see the yellow Dandelion and just go and take those leaves and put them in a salad.”

Matt: Yeah, but it’s the weed one, not the ornamental one. So, you know how we get the other weed one in Australia that grows everywhere, and then we go and buy the flash one from the shops to put in our garden?

Jeff: Yeah, no we want the weed.

Matt: We want the weed one. And, I have to double check this, and I’ll get back to everyone, but there’s a way of telling by a certain amount of branches that come off the main stalk; I don’t know whether it’s a single stalk or whether it’s multiple stalks that’s the one that’s medicinal.

Jeff: Right.

Matt: And, you can use the whole plant, but the leaf does the Diuretic and the root helps with Bile Flow in the Liver. Interesting eh, how the one plant does it all?

Jeff: Yeah, it’s funny actually. There’s quite a lot of stuff like that. We’ve got to talk about home remedies. And, I’d like to talk about not only home remedies but also peculiar facts about Herbs and Plants and stuff, Matt; there’s some really cool stuff out there.

Matt: Oh Man, there is.

Some other tricks, I told you how to get rid of Uric Acid, Quercetin and that improves the Capillaries Integrity, so you stop the water falling out.

We’ve got all the ATP Products, we’ve got the T432 for the Thyroid, we’ve got the CORT RX for the Cortisol, we’ve got the ALPHA VENUS and ALPHA PRIME to target the Estrogen; I don’t want to go through all those again, really. Trauma? Just stop hurting yourself, that’s easy to fix. Bentonite Clay is a really sneaky trick. I use a lot of Australian Bentonite Clay, and the reason I use the Australian Bentonite Clay is because we haven’t had as much—there are some other parts of the world that sell a lot of Clays that have got a lot of Toxic—they absorb poisons from everywhere, so you want to get it from a place where you can talk to the person about the history of the area.

Jeff: Like Quick Silver, Mercury?

Matt: Yeah, it’ll absorb anything. Some places where they’ve had Mercury used it’s in there, like Vietnam is full of Agent Orange, that sort of stuff, so all those sorts of things can get stuck in the Clay. But, the Australian Healing Clay is the one I buy—“Get ready, you might get some orders.” But, the Bentonite Clay, seriously…

Jeff: We should just get it, Matt, seriously we…

Matt: Let’s buy it. Well, I’ve always got a kilo in the kitchen, I don’t know if I told you that, there’s always a kilo sitting in the kitchen.

Jeff: Yeah, it’s something we keep talking to a lot of people about, and we should just make sure we’ve got…

Matt: If I ever feel crook in the Guts, like I’m going to get the green apple splatters, I just have two teaspoons of that in a bit of water and that just absorbs whatever Toxins are in my Gut.
I saw this documentary once; every animal in the jungle, at some stage every day tried to find this one little puddle of Clay, went to this one puddle of Clay to eat as much Clay as they could before something else bigger and scarier came along, because it absorbs all the Toxins and Poisons that was in the fruit and berries that they consume all day.

Jeff: Right?

Matt: So, they can neutralise a lot of those Toxins. But, Bentonite Clay, you get in a powder, you get some water and make a paste and then paint it on the outside of your body, and what it can actually do is help to dry everything out, remove Fluid Retention. You know how in the Lower Back there can be weird little pockets of Fluid Retention sitting above the Sacrum and stuff like that, for the girls coming into Comp, and especially for the blokes trying to get that Christmas Tree to pop out. You can paint the Clay all over that whole lower back and the legs and everything, the legs can get all Fluidy. But, if they paint that Clay everywhere a couple of things happen: you let it dry and then when it’s dry you just go shower or wash it off or brush it off, whatever, depends where you’re going, and that will, actually, significantly remove that Fluid, tighten the Skin, dry it out, but it also opens up the Pores and everything like that.

Jeff: Mm. So, Bentonite Clay is not a bad idea.

Matt: Yeah, it’s a handy little trick. You know how I kept talking about Circulation and a lot of these things are long slow things that take a while to kick in?

Jeff: Mm.

Matt: What you want to do, if you’re considering that your Circulation is pretty average, even if it is associated with Thyroids and that, you target the cause but also do some things to look after your Cardiovascular Health: maintaining Good Oils for the Elasticity of your Arteries, maintain Good Antioxidant Status. Measure things like Homocysteine; I tell everyone to go and measure Homocysteine as young as possible, especially if you’re talking about having kids and that, because that’s the one that causes Neural Tube Defects. It also causes about 30% of Age related Disorders, and most Cardiovascular Diseases.

You can clear away Homocysteine really easily with Folate and B12 and B6, and no one measures it. The funny thing is, once you get to that point when you’ve got major Heart Disease and all that sort of stuff, then the specialist will measure it. But, the doctors never measure it, and it’s a $25 test, and often it comes in high and then it’s, “Oh Man, you’re five times the risk of Heart Disease.” Six weeks later, after taking B12 and Folate, in the proper forms, in six weeks or something you go back and get another test and they say, “You’re actually half the risk of the rest of the population now.”

Jeff: You know the really funny thing is, Matt? And, I’ve obviously been reviewing some of our previous podcasts, and I’m going to let all of our listeners in on a little secret, there’s a lot of common themes that keep coming up, in terms of things people need to live an optimal lifestyle. And, I’m not going to mention the name of the product category we’re developing, but we’re working on this. Matt, but it’s interesting, a lot of the FAQs that we get back, and I know that your clinical studies show a lot of these things that people require. We’ve got some foundation products, pillars if you like, which we’ve developed in theory and we’re going to bring out. I think once we bring that out…

Matt: Oh Man.

Jeff: I think every man on the planet needs it. It’s funny, because our products are great, obviously the ALPHA VENUS, the ALPHA MARS…

Matt: Unfortunately, every man on the planet can’t get it, can’t have it, because there is just not—we can’t make enough of this stuff for everyone, so we’re going to have to just keep it quiet and use it ourselves.
But, the other point, just further to what you were saying there, when we’re looking at Vitamins and Minerals, and I keep talking about things like Folates and B12 and that, just using a synthetic Folic Acid, 2 or 400micrograms of Folic Acid in amongst a multi it’s only going to work for like one in four people.

Jeff: But, there’s no point in talking about the problem unless we’re prepared to face up and create a solution.

Matt: No, that’s why I keep talking about foods. You’ve got to realise that Folate, for example, that we talk about, it gets its name from Foliage, so you’ll find Folate in a lot of the green leafy things. So, you need to eat a massive big variety of all your Bok Choy, and your Broccoli and all that whole Brassica species is going to be full of it.

There are some people who struggle to convert that vegetable form of Folate into the Methylenetetrahydrofolate which is the active one that our body uses to control Estrogen and Homocysteine. But, the funny thing is, animals don’t struggle. So, you can get the activated form of Folate out of a lot of organ meats, which we don’t eat much of, but you actually find a lot more of that in amongst the animal meats, and particularly in the organ meats you’ll find a lot of the activated Folate because they’ve been eating the green leafy things and converting it in their body and now it’s found inside them. The same as the activated forms of B12, so the animal sources of B12 are sometimes more efficient than vegetable. Vegetable stuff has got a big variety of all those, but it’s just there’s more converted through in the animal organs.

Jeff: Which is, obviously problematic if you’re Vegan and those sorts of things, they need to look for other sources that can help.

Matt: It’s just tricky. At this stage we’re basically saying, “We want you to eat a variety of really gourmet foods,” but we need the foods to be grown and produced in a way that preserves those minerals and enhances them not degrades them and ruins them. So, that’s what I’m saying, there’s not enough farms doing it properly for us to do it, otherwise you’re getting waste material and you’re just trying to concentrate the Nutrients in food that don’t have the right profile.

So, what we’re doing, and this is why it’s taken us so damn long, is because we’re going back to the farmer. We’ve been, basically, saying, “There’s all these Vitamin and Mineral Deficiencies because of poor farming practises and because of poor food production processes.” Where the rest of the world is saying, “Because of poor farming practises, because of poor food production we need to supplement with synthetic Vitamins made in a pharmaceutical lab out of genetically modified yeast feeding on rubbish.”

Jeff: It’s moronic, isn’t it?

Matt: Yeah. So, instead, what we’ve done is gone, “What did you say? Poor farming practises, poor food production? If that’s what’s causing the problem, well let’s have a look at solving that problem.” So, we’re working with farmers and we’re working with food production techniques to make sure that we’re making foods that are, not only loaded up with Nutrients, but we’re actually testing them to see if the stuff is actually there before we go and say, “It’s loaded up full of Nutrients.”

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: Because, like you’re saying, the amount of Vitamin C you’re getting out of an orange—how many factors are there, it depends where you get the orange?

Jeff: That’s right. And, nothing takes away from good foundation food.

Matt: Yeah, exactly. But, it’s the stuff we don’t know about that’s in there, that’s the thing. We know so little; we seriously we know so little. There is so much more in Nature, and how arrogant would we be to say, “That’s the only good part of Nature.”

Jeff: Mm. And, what is frightening as well, is that there may be epidemic proportions of disease on the way because a lot of these things that were in our food aren’t there anymore and we don’t even know that they’re not there anymore, and we rely on them. I mean if you look at the incidences of Cancer, just a few weeks back we had David Bowie die at 69, we had Alan [0:36:19] die at 69, we had Gilligan die at 68. All these people within a week, all these actors, and I’m sure everybody that remembers them, the guy that played Grizzly Adams died at 72 from Cancer; Cancer, Cancer, Cancer. And, I know there are other diseases, Diabetes is another big one, and Cardiovascular Diseases, those are the big three, right?

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: But, I am absolutely convinced that not only is it the high levels of Stress which could be a component, obviously more Toxins, I mean we’re dealing with tens of thousands more manmade chemicals in the last 100 years than our forefathers never had to deal with.

Matt: And, our Immune Systems are just overwhelmed.

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: But, who knows about the stuff we can’t taste and can’t see, like the Electromagnetic Radiation and all that sort of stuff?

Jeff: Yeah, the soup that we swim in. This is where people who live out in the country—it’s good to get out in that and get some time away from technology and recharge the batteries.

Matt: Yeah, let’s go fishing.

Jeff: Yeah. But, all I’m trying to say, obviously, Matt, with all these sorts of things they come back to Quality Nutrition and Quality Environment.

Matt: Yeah, and going Back to Basics, going back to Nature, and say, “What was provided here for us to sustain ourselves without us being smarter than the people who made all this stuff available?”

Jeff: And, it’s Quality of Life as well. I mean if you look at these people, David Bowie dying at 69, Man that’s just gutting, when I know that Cellular Death doesn’t occur until 120. Now, Theo, the manicured man sent me over an article about these Grecians that were living well over 100 with quality of life—if you think of how much life these genius’ are giving up, it’s sad, because the world is a poorer place for it when these people pass on.

Matt: Yeah, that’s right.

Jeff: Anyway, we’re really getting off topic here.

Matt: Yeah, I know.

Jeff: Sorry, it’s just one of these things that just smacks me…

Matt: I forgot we were recording.

Jeff: We should be focused on having Quality of Life, Living into our 90s, 100s.

Matt: Yeah. Man, I freak out of time, it’s the most valuable thing on earth because there’s so much stuff I want to do. Anyway, stop wasting my time.

Jeff: Anything else on Lymphatic?

Matt: No, that’s enough.

Jeff: Okay. Let’s get stuck into a couple of FAQs then.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Right, let’s do it. This one is from Adriana: “Hey guys, I’m unsure if I’m getting the same results as people are reporting on social media. I’ll pop my feedback below on the products and any help would be greatly appreciated as I really want to stay on the products because I love what you guys are all about.

I’ve been using ALPHA VENUS”—I think, or maybe ALPHA PRIME—“T432 PLUS, SUBCUT, BLOCK E3 since December, but apart from skin firming I don’t know that I’ve seen much of a difference. Bloating has subsided but I’m unsure if that can be attributed the ALPHA VENUS, the old formula, or watching what I eat and not eating foods high in FODMAP; weight has definitely stayed the same, no changes. I feel fuller in the arms, and thighs, butt and hips all feel relatively the same; “sigh”. I’m going to take a three to four week break and try a second course around 12 weeks to see if I notice the difference in my physique like others are reporting, after which point I will assess again but at this point I’m not noticing much of a difference but in my purse; “ha, ha.” Hopefully I’ll start noticing some difference soon like others are reporting. It’s hard to recommend products if you don’t see any marked degree in changes.

Some things I’ll note about my diet: I eat small meals per day due to Digestion issues. I don’t eat after 6:30, so only a snack, as I can’t sleep on a full stomach. I don’t eat meat or chicken. I qui sugar in my coffee and try to stay well away from that garbage; chocolates etcetera. I limit fruit as well due to FODMAP issues below. I eat loads of eggs and tuna; I could do better with my greens though I try my best. I have to stick to a very basic FODMAP foods that don’t aggravate me as I have Digestion issues. I eat a fair bit of nuts, a weakness of mine, so I’m getting adequate Fats. I would appreciate any advice, noting that I have taken loads of stimulants in my time; you name it, I’ve taken it, and lists of some brands.

This is the first time in a long time weaning off the Stims because in my head I know what I’ve learned and continued to learn through Matt and ATP Science for my best interests in the long run. I wonder if anyone else is noticing not a great deal of difference? I really appreciate your advice, and thanks.”

Well Matt, can I throw a couple of things out there?

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Everyone is an individual and so everybody will be different.

Matt: Yeah, of course.

Jeff: But, I understand this, this is a fair question that can be frustrating at times. If you feel like you’re doing everything right but just the results aren’t coming.

Matt: No, it’s a good question, I’m glad you read it because there are lot of people who have similar type things. And, that’s not unrealistic expectations to think you’d see some changes on the scales and that sort of stuff.

When you said everyone is an individual, it is so true, and what we have to look at is, we don’t have enough information on this to actually go through and be detectives and analyse where things are going wrong. But, as a general rule, with this Inflammation and Immune Dysregulation coming out of the Gut—Inflammation contributes to Insulin Resistance, Inflammation contributes to an Inhibition of Thyroid Hormone Function, Inflammation contributes to Estrogen Activation. So, with all of our products trying to push things in certain ways it can all be sabotaged by an ongoing Inflammatory and Immune Activation, so it’s a good idea to have a break and get this Gut stuff sorted first, because, at this stage, reading through there, there’s not enough Greens, not enough Fruits, no Meats and Chicken and so the Protein is coming out of Eggs and Tuna, and I don’t know if that’s hard yolks or soft yolks, or if we’ve got a lot of Saturated Bad Fats, if they’re roasted Nuts and Seeds with a lot of damaged Fats and that sort of stuff. So, from what I’m understanding at this stage we’re getting a diet that’s full of Fatty Protein, which is a fine strategy to actually lose weight if it’s a very specific strategy where you are then putting Grains and everything in as well. So, using a particular Keto System Diet would suit that high Fat, high Protein style Diet, but we don’t know what she’s actually doing, whether there are Grains coming in a well, or what other bits and pieces are coming in. So, it’s very important to fix those things first and to actually work with someone that can actually go through and make sure you’re getting adequate Calories and measuring out the Protein, Carb and Fat ratios and giving you some foods and some specific instructions of what to eat when for Calories and then you can pick which foods don’t aggravate your Guts, but you need a proper strategy because you’re going to have to go either healthy Fats, Clean Eating, Calorie Control, or you can go Keto where you avoid the Fruits and that sort of stuff, and you’ve got to do it properly. You can’t just be flipping around.

The problem with that, as well, in those situations we get our heads stuck and we’re looking at foods as either going to be Inflammatory, Allergenic or Fattening, where instead when you’re working with a Coach and a Trainer you start looking at food as feeding your Muscle. So, for every 2 million bits of information we potentially could pick up we’re going to take in seven, so we need these seven to be positive, not Allergenic, Inflammatory, Fattening, blah, blah, blah. What we need you to be able to do is say, “This food I’m eating because I need to feel my Muscle and my Metabolism because I’m working hard and training hard and I’m on a plan.” And, with this sort of stuff, self-doubt, fear, combined with the Inflammation and all that sort of stuff, and Negativity, can actually sabotage your results. When you work with a Trainer and a Coach to take out a lot of the Anxieties and a lot of the Worries, and they give you a plan that you can trust the process, and knowing that our products aren’t then going to have to fight against an ongoing high grade Inflammation, that will allow our products to work on Insulin Resistance, it will allow our products to work on Estrogen and Thyroid, otherwise there are too many handbrakes slowing down your Metabolism associated with these Gut issues, and the way that you’ve had to change your Calorie and Macro ratios based on your Gut and fears around what’s going to happen with the Gut.

There are some interesting studies around too, where simple Positive Affirmations around the meals, by changing the way your Brain looks at your food, it changes the way you react to the food. That’s why I think it’s always good to give someone else an opportunity to help you with your food and say, “Look, trust me, these foods aren’t going to aggravate your Gut, but these are the Calories, these are the ratios, this is how many Nuts you can eat a day, and they have to be raw, this is how many Egg Yolks you can eat in a day to get your Protein. Your Tuna, well what are we getting out of the Tuna? Is it an oily Tuna, what is it, is it in Canola Oil, Olive Oil, Water, kicking off a boat?”

Jeff: It’s interesting, isn’t it?

Matt: Mm. So, there’s a lot of factors, and it’s a good question because there are a lot of people out there that will be thinking that. And, that’s why, when they do these studies on Natural Medicine and they go and give a product across the board, there’s all these other factors and that’s why they’re happy to see a 60, 70 or 80% success rate across the board.

Jeff: The same with Drugs.

Matt: Yeah, well Drugs are lucky to get a 60 or a 70%, you know.

Jeff: So, underlying Absorption issues, underlying Chemical Pathways in the body, there could be all sorts of things that can cause…

Matt: Epigenetics and all sorts of stuff.

Jeff: Yeah. And, it’s interesting, Matt, one of the stories that you tell that I really enjoyed was about the Water and also the Rice where people were ignoring it or talking nicely to it, or talking horrible to it, and how the Rice and the Water actually looked different. And, for those who haven’t heard the story I’ll tell the Water one: one was sworn at, one was told…

Matt: “I hate you, I hate you,” and one was, “I love you, I love you.”

Jeff: Yeah, and when they froze it and they looked at the ice crystals the one they’d said, “I love you, I love you,” the ice crystals were perfectly formed strong structures. The one that they said, “I hate you,” to had all fragmented broken weak looking crystal structures. It’s weird, the Metaphysical stuff.

Matt: What about the next part of that trial? It’s not so much a peer reviewed trial, some guys got criticism over these trials too, so it may not be scientifically valid, but they’re really cool. And, the other interesting part was, they criticised them saying, “You didn’t have a control,” and that was one of the reasons why they said, “You’re scientifically not valid, there was no control sample.” They then did a third trial with a control sample where they just ignored it, they didn’t say, “I love you,” or they didn’t say, “I hate you,” they just ignored it. When they went back the actual control was the worst, and actually even the negative attention was better than no attention.

Jeff: It’s weird.

Matt: Yeah, freaky eh.

Jeff: So, anyway, I appreciate your frustrations Adrianna.

Matt: But Man, the funny thing is, you learn a lot about yourself through these processes too. So, understanding that there are things that are happening in your Gut that are probably the cause of your problems, and you’ve got to fix the cause. I mean these things are in there trying to fix it but there’s an Inflammatory trigger coming from your Gut that’s probably causing Thyroid, Estrogen, Insulin, all those problems, they’re all Inflammatory. Have a crack at that.

Jeff: Alright. Look, Adrianna, we’d love to hear from you. Let’s see if that helps, and go from there.
Okay, this one is from Cooge—we’re getting some unusual names—he’s a Tribe member.

Matt: Good on him.

Jeff: “Hi Matt. You touched briefly on this in your last podcast for those with Celiac Disease. Aside from Probiotics and Zinc what are some other essential Vitamins for Celiac. In the absence of Wheat can the lack of a particular Vitamin or Mineral cause Bloating? Are you able to name or recommend any Multivitamin?” No.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: “Thanks heaps for getting around to my post, warm regards, Cooge.” I think that’s right.

Matt: So, you do your Probiotics, look for the Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG, because it’s very powerful at controlling Zonulin, which is a compound which causes the Intestinal Permeability. Like you said, Zinc is probably one of the most important because that’s what actually kills people with Diarrhoea, apart from the Dehydration, so Zinc is extremely important; Glutamine is important. But, seriously, you get Deficiencies of most things because of the constant fast—it’s to do with your Bowels.

So, if you’ve got a big balanced Diet and everything is going well the Inflammatory reaction can screw around with a few things, but it’s like a basic Multivitamin type thing. But, you’re better off getting it out of foods because we don’t know everything, so you want a big variety. But, specifically look for Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG, throw in the Glutamine. I’ve got to get a chance to write these lists up, Man. I’ve got all these lists out of my clinic and I’ve just got to write them up, I’ve just got to get them prettier.

Jeff: We’ll get there.

Matt: We will get there.

Jeff: We’re getting more people on board to help, so that will hopefully free up some more of your time,

Matt: Yeah. So, B12, Folate are so important again.

Jeff: Yeah, just go for the brands that you trust. Again, I don’t like recommending any brands because on the surface—and, I know Matt you’ve worked with a few brands that seemed to have worked in the past, but we don’t know what their current practises are like, we don’t know how they working in the world.

Matt: No. That’s right, and they all get bought out and changed, sold.

Jeff: So, this one is from Tommy—finally, a name I can pronounce.

Matt: G’day Tommy. What’s his last name?

Jeff: Nah. “Hey Matt, a question about headaches. My brother, ever since I can remember has suffered from terrible, terrible headaches. Usually they come and go, and he goes through phases when they’re worse than normal. He’s a 23-year-old mechanic. He’s 210 centimetres tall—Holy snaps. How tall is that?

Matt: Probably he keeps hitting his head. Ask him if he bangs his head on everything, walking in doors and things.

Jeff: Oh, problem solved. There you go, thanks Tommy.

Matt: Next.

Jeff: No. “He weighs around about 90 kilos. He is exposed to oils, fuels and other chemicals daily but is careful to wash his hands regularly. He is fairly active all day pulling engines out of cars and doing other mechanic stuff. He goes for the very odd run every now and then but doesn’t weight train. His Diet is pretty standard considering of the typical Cereal and Muesli breakfast, sweets and snacks for smoko breaks, sandwiches for lunch and normal everyday dinners, lasagne, meat and three veg, that sort of stuff. He drinks three to four litres of Water a day to keep Hydrated in a hot and stuffy workshop. He hasn’t had sugary soft drink in ages.

When these headaches get really bad he to the GP; he has seen just about every one around where he lives. He’s been given advice such as, “Take some Panadol every day for the next two weeks and see if that does anything.”

Matt: Oh? Huh.

Jeff: “No good. “Your back and neck are out, go get a massage,” he tried that with different Physios and Chiros with no avail. Do you think it could be due to the oils and chemicals that he’s exposed to on a daily basis, or could it be more to do with how tall he is and the awkward position he has to get into when working on cars, always hunched over an engine bay or rolling around under a car? Thank you in advance, Tom. ATP Tribe.”

Matt: Yeah, that’s a good one. So, with headaches, and there are a lot of different types of headaches. If it comes out of your neck and back and that sort of stuff, usually you can put your head into a position that will refer pain into the part you get your headache.

Jeff: Right.

Matt: But, your head is about 10% of your body weight, so his probably sitting about a nine or 10 kilo head sitting on the end of a 200 centimetre pole and leaning forward. So, basically, there’s a lot of Muscle stuff that’s having to happen to keep that up, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a bit of Muscular type stuff. But, usually, if that’s the case, lean forward and you’ll feel it pulling up to the neck and through the Occipital area and maybe refer to where you get the headaches. Or, you can go and find trigger points on side of the neck and poke on them and it will make your head hurt where you get the headaches. But, a good therapist should be able to work that out for you. So, that’s how you can often tell if it’s structural.
But, again, the thing is, with Chemical Exposure we’re inhaling them before we’re absorbing. So, we’re getting a lot of inhalants and that sort of stuff, and what they immediately do, we’ve got Receptors in our Olfactory Nerves that will send signals through to say, “Hey, there’s poison on its way,” so you don’t actually have to be poisoned to get the symptoms. So, what happens, the body quickly makes the Blood go sticky, so whatever the poison or venom that’s coming in doesn’t spread, then you get no Oxygen to your head. Some of the fumes actually compete with Oxygen for binding sites in the Blood but you get no Oxygen to the head and then the Brain says, “Where’s my Oxygen?” and starts pumping the Blood Vessels to get more Blood into your head. The Skull doesn’t change much, Brain I hope doesn’t change much, so you run out of room between your Brain and your Skull and you get a headache. That’s a very common thing and it causes a throbbing, usually temporary and it’s associated with changes in the Cytochrome P450 System.

So, CORT RX with the Turmeric and the Withania and Schisandra call all help with that. So too can the VENUS because of the Rosemary and the Broccoli Sprouts, they can help with those sort of headaches. I’d probably start with CORT RX actually, because the Turmeric and that sort of stuff is probably the fastest acting. Oh, gees Man, the Broccoli Sprout is even better by clearing away the actual compounds and stopping the changes, so I don’t know; both if I had my choice. But, otherwise you do the VENUS and hit the Turmeric, you know, just take them both, you’ll be right, you’ve got headaches.

The other thing to check out, before I forget, when the Arteries start throbbing our body should stop that throbbing as soon as the Blood gets back to the head, but why it doesn’t sometimes I don’t know. But, often, it’s associated with Electrolyte imbalances. So, if you’re working hard, you’re drinking three to four litres of Water a day, you’re probably depleting yourself of Magnesiums and Sodiums and Potassiums. So, the first thing I would do is get a good Electrolyte blend—give him something like INFRARED, see if we can get him some INFRARED to put into his—we’ll send one out, won’t we?

Jeff: Yeah, we will.

Matt: Send him out an INFRARED to throw into his Water and drink that because that way you’re going to get the Circulatory Stimulants, you’re going to get the Schisandra and you’re going to get the Electrolytes.

Jeff: Which ALPHA VENUS, by the way, Matt, ALPHA VENUS or ALPHA PRIME?


Jeff: Okay. Alright, well we’ll send them out.

Matt: Blood pressure. I’m positive if he went to the doctor for headaches the first thing they would have done was measure Blood Pressure and Blood Sugar. If they haven’t…

Jeff: They should be shot.

Matt: Yeah. No. Tell them to—no, that’s a bit mean. Tell them to take all those Panadol, they recommended for two weeks, at once. A suppository, give them the whole box. No, they would have measured Blood Pressure, surely.

Jeff: Well, we’ll send out an INFRARED and a CORT RX, and an ALPHA VENUS.

Matt: Because, you can get headaches from high or low Blood Pressure and they’re often associated with postural changes, leaning over and that sort of stuff.

Jeff: Maybe it could be a combination of both.

Matt: So, send him an INFRARED.

Jeff: Yeah, I’ll do CORT and ALPHA VENUS too.

Matt: Oh wow!

Jeff: I’m feeling generous.

Matt: Aren’t you?

Jeff: Matt, if his brother was to get out of that environment, let’s say, for a two-week holiday or something like that, would they subside or does it take longer?

Matt: Not necessarily because the Survival Mechanisms are there, then you go down the aisle at the shopping centre where they sell the detergents and stuff like that, and bang, it hits you in the face, or the cleaner comes in that hour early before they’re supposed to and start spraying chemicals around, and bang, it hits you in the face. So, the funny thing is you’ve still got to reset the Cytochrome P450s that have been altered based on the Chemical Exposure anyway.

Jeff: Oh, okay. Alright, give that a try and hopefully Tom that helps. Gee, your brother is tall, I hope he’s playing basketball or playing for the All Blacks or something.

Matt: And, do ask if he’s just not hitting his head on things.

Jeff: Yeah. Okay, this one’s from Anonymous: “Dear Jeff and Matt, thank you for your podcasts, riddled with mordent humour to break up the monotony of my daily grind. I look forward to hearing your weekly tid bits of gold.” Ooh.

Matt: Mm.

Jeff: “My question relates to recent blood tests and my constant feeling of Fatigue and Tiredness. I’m a 22-year-old male who competes in power lifting and trains four to five days a week. I have a stressful job being a lawyer. My most recent blood test was taken three months after a hospital admission for a debilitating Virus which I fall victim to annually at sporadic times. This has happened in the last three years. Initially it was assumed to be Appendicitis but after emergency surgery and the removal of my Appendix—great.

Matt: Ugh.

Jeff: “It was found out that I was not suffering from the condition, but I did, however, have complications from the surgery, largely emanating from the burning of my Bowel and perhaps other aspects, I was told, was excessive twitching during the procedure. Since this time I have had excessive Bloating and Stomach discomfort along with excessive Weight Gain despite a Calorie Controlled Diet. After the dismissal of the diagnosis of Appendicitis I was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome…

Matt: Ohh.

Jeff: …as, I had previously had Epstein Bar Virus tests which showed negative in relation to a recent flare up.”

That’s funny because I was going to say Ross River or Epstein Bar Virus.

“My further concerns arise from the blood tests above mentioned, the results of the same can be provided if necessary, however the greater concern for myself is the reading of my Testosterone coming back at 13 nmol. My age and competing as I do this has led to come issues including Inability to increase Strength and Body Composition changes unfavourably, lack of Sex Drive and Libido, and constantly feeling Tiredness resulting in a lack of Motivation and Drive to enjoy activities outside of work and training. I recently started taking CORT RX four tablets a night for a week and two thereafter with the intention of stabilising Stress Hormones and naturally the Anabolic Hormones to restore. This however has been largely unsuccessful as the above symptoms have not resolved.

Approaching competition season and the lack of progress relating to Strength are particularly annoying and frustrating in the light of my consistent training efforts. What products or lifestyle interventions could you recommend in my circumstance, and your help is greatly appreciated as I’ve had a year of failed attempts to rectify and unhelpful medical professionals.”

That’s tough.

Matt: Yeah. Those Viruses suck. Certain Viruses come into our body and they typically find a nice little home living inside certain cells; they’ll often live inside Immune Cells. So, normally an Immune cell with eat the Virus, poison it with the chemical inside, rip it to bits, show their mates saying, “There’s Viruses here, go kill them.” Certain Viruses are immune to that, they just love it, they just think, “Oh, I can happily live inside this Immune Cell, and the more work this Anonymous bloke does to feed my Immune System the more fuel I’m going to get. The more good food he eats to fix these things the more fuel I’m going to get,” and then they get to a point and go, “No, I’ve overstayed my welcome here and it’s actually a nice place, I think I might invite the rest of my family and friends,” and what they do is they then spread, they go through and propagate, and then you have what they call a flare up. It’s only when they’re outside of the Immune Cells and back floating back through the Bloodstream that the Immune System goes, “Hey, there are Viruses here. Quick, let’s attack them,” and then they grab them, and, “Oh, no there’s no Viruses here. No, we’re an Allergen,” and then what they do is they tell the body, “Stop attacking Viruses, there’s no Viruses here, let them go, they’re fine, these aren’t the droids you’re looking for.” And, then they say, “Go and attack Allergens instead.”

So, what happens is they keep the Immune System skewed towards Allergic Inflammation but they keep you constantly Inflamed, plus they’re constantly exhausting your body. It’s very inefficient, it’s stealing all your energy and everything like that triggering constant Inflammatory Reactions.

We’ve got to attack the Virus specifically, and we don’t actually have anything directly within our range. The CORT RX is good to help protect against the damage from the Virus, it’s probably our best Anti-Inflammatory. But, there’s a particular Herb you want, you want to find Ganoderma Lucidumwhich is the Reishi Mushroom, and you want to get equivalent to 6 grams a day. So, you’ve got to read the box and throw them down; I’m going to try and get some in for us, anyway, into a bottle. So, anyway, you want Reishi Mushrooms equivalent to 6 grams a day, that’s the best way to do it, and if you’re not on any other Antidepressants or any other medication, one of the other most potent Antivirals is actually Hypericum, which is St John’s Wort, they market it as an Antidepressant because it also makes you feel good but it’s very powerful at smashing specific enveloped and protected Viruses.

Jeff: Really? I’ve never heard that.

Matt: Yeah. The combination of Reishi Mushrooms—did you ever hear about that French doctor? I wonder whatever happened to him? Maybe it didn’t work. He was going to inject himself with HIV, he was doing all this work saying Hypericum was going to kill HIV.

Jeff: Are you for real? Wow, that’s a bold claim.

Matt: Yeah, he did disappear. I wonder if he did that and it didn’t quite work?

Jeff: Maybe he did do it and it did work.

Matt: Yeah, that’s right, by the way he’s gone.

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: Oh Man, we’re going to get into trouble one day.

Jeff: Oh, I love conspiracy theories, why not, they make life fun.

Matt: Don’t they.

Jeff: They may or may not be true but they’re fun talking about.

Matt: Stop informing yourself. Anyhow, what were we talking about? Yeah, Rieshi Mushroom, smash it with that, and you’ve got to do that first, you’ve got to target that Virus, you’ve got smack it out of the park first. And, the other thing to do is to try to trick the way the Immune System is working, and that’s how the Rieshi Mushrooms really work. So, bucket loads of Zinc, you need lots of Zinc because the Immune Cells need to fire up as an Antiviral and Zinc is the way to do it. Rieshi Mushrooms, 6 grams a day, St John’s Wort at about 2 grams a day, and CORT RX take one capsule three times a day so you have a steady blood level of the Anti-Inflammatory compounds. That’s what I’d do.

Jeff: Right. Alright. So, the CORT RX is like the last thing, almost to use?

Matt: Yeah, it’s just a symptom control, the Virus is the cause.

Jeff: Okay, well hopefully that helps. Please let us know. Obviously, we love to get feedback.

Matt: Oh, sorry. Further to that, if you can’t get the Immune and you can’t get the Inflammation and everything under control your body will not allow you to make adequate Testosterone because it doesn’t know what’s going on, so you won’t be reproducing.

Jeff: “Save energy?”

Matt: So, it’s saying, “Man, you’re under attack. Don’t go shagging and having babies and stuff, or doing body building Comps.”

Jeff: No, no powerlift.

Matt: Yes.

Jeff: Okay, this one is from Jessie: “Hi ATP crew. I’ve recently started taking the new ALPHA VENUS, T432 plus some CORT RX. I’ve noticed some significant positive changes to my symptoms of PCOS. Fructose Malabsorption and most of all my sleeping patterns.” Great. “My partner has also noticed these changes and is now interested in giving some of your products a go. We’ve had a reasonably Clean wholesome Diet, all of our meals are prepared from scratch due to my Fructose Intolerance. We do add foods that I can’t have to some of his meals to make sure that his diet is as well balanced as possible. We try our best to exercise daily but our biggest issue is that my partner is consistently tired and struggles to get out of bed even after 10 to 11 hours of sleep some days. He’s a diesel mechanic,”—Oh?—“working on an afternoon into the late evening shift, and whilst is weekly rostered it is the same each week and has a constant battle with Fatigue and very little Energy to get out there and exercise and train. He has lost a significant amount of weight last year, but is struggling to maintain it. He feels like he is in some sort of Energy Crash at the moment, but the doctors say health wise he’s fine.

I was hoping you could suggest some products that could help to balance him out. I just wanted to say thank you as your products have made such a wonderful difference to my health. We’re looking forward to finding out if there is maybe a solution for my partner as well. Thanks for your time, Jessie.”

Diesel mechanics. My brother in law is a Diesel mechanic. He has suffered some serious health issues and he actually had to leave the industry. Some people, Matt, are more resilient than others, some people seem to have no problems, other people seem to get smashed by it.

Matt: The people that have got strong Survival Instincts they cop it. We’re moving into a part of society where you’re better off being one of those people that do not react to Stress, because we don’t have the life threatening Stress as much, you’re better off letting Toxins come in and go, because it’s our actual body’s response to those Toxins that’s actually killing us more than the Toxin. People do these studies and say, “Oh, the Toxin isn’t that bad,” but it’s actually the way our body responds to the Toxin that’s bad.

Jeff: So, Jessie’s Immune System is…

Matt: Is, probably tough and his body is constantly working dealing with this sort of stuff, and it’s bloody exhausting.

Jeff: Yeah, right.

Matt: The way I would treat it, and this would be a really cool strategy, and it would be really interesting to see how he goes. But, CORT RX before he goes to bed, so take two CORT RX before sleep. That’s going to reboot the Cytochrome P450 Pathways that have been screwed throughout the day through exposure to the compounds, and then your body is doing all that Detoxification processing stuff when he’s sleeping. When he wakes up in the morning take ALPHA MARS, get him on the ALPHA MARS for two reasons: ALPHA MARS is really good for energy, very good for Chronic Fatigue, very good for Motivation and Drive and that sort of stuff, but the Shilajit is a very powerful Chelation agent. It binds onto Toxins and holds onto them so you can eliminate them out without them causing problems in your body; a very powerful Chelator.

Other powerful Chelators…

Jeff: My favourite Herb, Coriander.

Matt: Coriander, yeah. Zinc, Selenium, Coriander.

Jeff: Smash the Coriander; put Coriander in everything that you’re eating.

Matt: Yeah. Chlorophyll as well is a very powerful Chelator, so make sure everything is green; it’s the green part of plants.

Jeff: I thought you were going to say Chlorella then, but no?

Matt: Well yeah, Chlorophyll is in Chlorella, that’s how it gets its name, it’s full of it.

Jeff: Yeah, but smash that. Any other ones, Matt, salads that are good?

Matt: No, that’ll do, just start with that, Man. You find if you do a simple pattern like that, two CORT RX at night, do ALPHA MARS, two of those twice a day, you should notice good Energy pretty quick. The other things, the usual culprits that we need to add in there are B Vitamins, Zinc, Selenium. Every time, eh?

Jeff: Yeah.

Matt: We’re getting there; we are seriously getting there. We need to make them.

Jeff: We’re hiring some new people at the moment, some R&D people, to help Matt, and Matt’s going to focus more on innovation and that’s going to free up a lot of your time, Matt. So, we should be able to fast track some of these products.

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Alright. This one is from Rachel: “Hi boys, love your podcasts. As a fourth year Naturopathic student, Bachelor of Health Science…

Matt: Oh cool.

Jeff: …I have applied your knowledge in many of my patient cases, in particular balancing female Hormones. Unfortunately, at my college, I can only prescribe Naturopathic brands and have not been able to utilise ATP supplements. I have however seen the personal and clinical improvements in balancing Hormones, decreasing Inflammation, reducing Food Cravings, increase in Mood, and many more by using N Acetylcysteine”—I love N Acetylcysteine—“Matt, have you used N Acetylcysteine in your treatment protocols? I have a thorough understanding of its role in the Tripeptides Glutathione, and that is why it so affects thoughts.

Matt: Yes, it’s brilliant.

Jeff: I love it.

Matt: I love it. I use it for all the Fatty Liver problems, all the Liver Degeneration problems. It can be a bit tricky to take because some companies—it actually was an antidote to a poisoning from a children’s cough mixture, and one of the pharmaceutical companies patented it, reserved its rights for use in Australia as an antidote to their poison.

Jeff: Yeah, it’s bullshit.

Matt: Anyway, let’s not talk about that. The NAC is brilliant. I tell you what, if you add in NRF2 Activators with NAC you can take it to a whole new level.

Jeff: Combine it with CORT RX?

Matt: Yeah, well CORT RX or VENUS. So, N Acetylcysteine is a very important ingredient, one important ingredient, the important building block for all those—you know, reduce Glutathione and that sort of stuff. But, the NRF2 Gene Activation forces the body to make it, so if you activate the NRF2 Genes it will drag that N Acetylcysteine and make it more effective for Glutathionation and that sort of stuff, it can amplify it’s results through the roof.

It’s interesting, Glutathione; a lot of people supplement with Glutathione, but you actually get a better result supplementing with N Acetylcysteine and better again if you stack it with an NRF2 Activator. So, the NRF2 Activators that we’re aware of that are powerful are Turmeric, Withania. I’m telling you this because you’ll find these in your Naturopathic products, and I’m going to go visit these colleges and explain that the most Naturopathic products they can have access to aren’t actually in their dispensary, so we’ll see what we can do about that.

Jeff: Matt, we can barely keep up with supply!

Matt: I know, but gees.

Jeff: I know it’s a massive market, and Matt, I’m reading this and I’m cringing on the inside because I know, as a Naturopath you’re brilliant, and I know that you formulate…

Matt: But, that’s why we made these products because the Naturopathic products weren’t cutting it.

Jeff: No.

Matt: And, I used to make for the Naturopathic products and they wouldn’t let me make this stuff.

Jeff: That’s right. You took the words out of my mouth. You used to make for these companies who then had to dull it down to either fit in with [1:09:13] or whatever else they were doing.

Matt: No, we’re pushing it. They’ll be right, they can use it when they get out. Come and do some clinic hours and help us make some products.

The NRF2 Activators, Turmeric, Withania, Brassicas, all your Broccoli Sprouts and all that stuff, and Rosemary.

Jeff: Cool. There you go, ALPHA VENUS. Okay.

Matt: And, CORT RX.

Jeff: Well, anyway Rach, yes I love it, it’s always been great.

Matt: Nice one.

Jeff: Good question.

Matt: What’s next?

Jeff: This one is from Richard: “Gents, love the podcast, keep them coming. Look forward to your Melbourne Seminar in March”—so are we, it’s going to be fantastic. It will be nice to actually press the flesh, Matt.
Matt: What are you talking about? He didn’t tell me what’s involved in this thing. Flesh pressing?

Jeff: Alright, let’s just skip that. There’s a surprise for everyone. I’ll be greeting everybody at the door.

Matt: Well hang on, if Jeff’s ever behind you and he yells, “Surprise…

Jeff: Oh my Gosh. Matt, that’s too far. ”Love to hear your thoughts and supplementation ideas on my somewhat erratic state of affairs. I recently had some lab runs, Biohealth 101, Nutropath Adreno Cortex Stress Profile,”—Matt, do you know what they are?

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Okay. “And, feel average—and official medical term. My background: I’m a 39-year-old male, I used to Cross Fit for five years before the injury, I sprained my SIJ, it ruled me out of contention for no title ever. No longer enjoying the Cross Fit beat downs. I drive a desk all day, not happy about it. Looking to change that. Sleep, seven and a half to eight hours per night, and wake up super tired. Some more background may help, I’m six-foot-tall, 80 kilos, relatively lean, taking over the counter supplements of Magnesium, Zinc, D3, but not so much over summer, Fish Oil every other day, [1:11:07] Acid, NAC, Curcumin, B Complex, occasional Vitamin C.

My lab results: my Cortisol I am 16.5, the low end of normal according to their reference range, keeping in mind that their range is determined by all the unhealthy people they test, so not a good gauge for normal. Cortisol midday 5.9, normal. Afternoon 2.6, low. Midnight 2.5, borderline high. DHEA, 15 low. Cortisol DHEA, 1.8. Melatonin, 14 low. Progesterone 250, I’m in the high range; the range is 159. Testosterone is 215 which is low, range is 100-270. Estradiol 22 high, the range is 1-6, so he’s at 22. And, Estriol at 7, okay, range is 0-25. P4E2 ratio, 11.4, which is low, range is 4-108. Biohealth 101 Metabolic Assessment Profile Urinary Indican positive, +1 for Protein Digestion.

Matt: Is he on the PRIME yet?

Jeff: Does not say.

Matt: Doesn’t look like it. He needs the PRIME, it’s perfect.

Jeff: Okay.

Matt: Because, the ALPHA PRIME—see that Tangkat Ali, the combination of ALPHA MARS and ALPHA PRIME would be the perfect combination for this. The reason why I say that is—but, we trick it around a bit. You take the PRIME at night, just keep the ALPHA PRIME at night just to force that Cortisol to lower around midnight. So, you could probably take two of them at night, probably take four and push your luck a little bit.

Jeff: What would you do if it was me?

Matt: If it was you I don’t care that much, I’d take four.

Jeff: You bastard.

Matt: So, I’d say two ALPHA MARS in the morning, two ALPHA MARS at night, and see how you go with four PRIME before bed, otherwise just drop it back down to two. The reason why I say that is because—no, actually, you don’t have to force the four at night, because having that extra Tangkat Ali in the morning will help as well. I’m waffling a little bit, but do two ALPHA MARS twice a day, and that’s because it makes you feel awesome and gets your Test up, but the ALPHA PRIME, what it can do is it can change the priorities of your Adrenal Cortex, and it can say, “Stop pumping out as much Cortisol and start using some of those raw materials to make DHEA. So, it can lower Cortisol in the morning by about 20% and at midnight by about 20%, but it can increase DHEA production by about 20%.

Jeff: Right. So, DHEA ratio is low, yeah 1.8.

Matt: Yeah, it sounds a bit low. But, don’t worry about that Cortisol DHEA ratio, that’s all over the shop because there are multiple Cortisol [1:13:53]. So, basically, first thing in the morning you want your Cortisol high, but not that high, so what we want to do is use the Tangkat Ali to tell it to make some DHEA as well in the morning. Then, when you do the PRIME again at night you’re actually going to flatten that Cortisol reading at night, force your Adrenals into a bit deep sleep so when you wake up in the morning they’ve got something left. So, ALPHA MARS and ALPHA PRIME two of each twice a day.

Jeff: So, would you go two MARS first thing in the morning with breakfast, and then another two at lunchtime or before training or something like that?

Matt: No, just smack them both down, two PRIME, two MARS for breakfast, two MARS two PRIME for tea, or dinner, or evening meal, whatever you are.

Jeff: Perfect. Yeah. So, that’s splitting them 12 hours apart, or thereabouts?

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: Perfect. Matt, that’s it for today.

Matt: Easy.

Jeff: That was easy.

Matt: It was fun.

Jeff: Matt, last word?

Matt: Yeah.

Jeff: You’re terrible. We’re coming down to…

Matt: Well do it like a phrase or something, but one word? Seriously, it’s harder to think of one word.

Jeff: One word?

Matt: Shut up.

Jeff: That’s two words. Oh anyway, well thanks guys for joining us this week, we’ll be back next week. Don’t forget we’re getting close to the Melbourne event down at the Arnolds, we’d love to see you there for the breakfast. I know that tables are filling up fast, there’s no allocated seating so it’s not like you’re going to be pushed to the back. We’re going to have some quite exciting announcements that we’re going to be making down there, and we look forward to seeing you. So, thanks again, keep the FAQs coming, and we’ll catch you next week. Matt, do you want to say goodbye to the people?

Matt: Hooroo.

Jeff: Very good.


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