ATP Science, Episode 71 – Carb Lies


Welcome to the ATP Project, Episode 71 – Carb Lies

  • Carbs – Dodgy Research
  • Fruit
  • High Molecular Weight info
  • Gastric Emptying
  • Glycaemic Index
  • Bloating
  • Fructose
  • Maltodextrin
  • Rice Malt
  • High Fructose Corn Syrup


  • Products to use [00:42:36]
  • Low Testosterone in a young man [00:55:40]
  • Hashimoto’s feedback [01:02:09]
  • Binge Eating [01:07:18]

Welcome to the ATP Project with your hosts Matt and Jeff.

Jeff:       Matt, today we’re talking about Carbs.

Matt:     Ooh.

Jeff:       People have been asking for this one for a long time.

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       Carbs -we’ve found out, and this is scientifically proven, that Carbohydrates come from Devil.

Matt:     What?

Jeff:       No, but this is what people in the industry think, a lot of people do, they think that Carbs are from the Devil.

Matt:     Well, roll me in honey and feed me to Satan.

Jeff:       Mum, he’s joking.

Matt:     Yeah, that’s a joke for Satan and anyone else involved that might take that literally.

Jeff:       Well, some people argue, Matt, that Carbs come from heaven.

Matt:     They taste like it.

Jeff:       They do, absolutely.  So, what do they say, Matt, “A moment in your mouth, a minute in your stomach and forever on the hips”?

Matt:     Do they say that?  I thought they said, “I’m craving Carbs so much I’ll lick the arse of an angel”.

Jeff:       What?

Matt:     I don’t know.

Jeff:       I’ve never heard that saying before.  I don’t hang around in your circles.

Matt:     No.

Jeff:       Where do you hang out?  The Blue Oyster Bar?

Matt:     Yeah, with all the angels.

Jeff:       Is that what you call your mates?

Matt:     What are we doing?  Maybe we should start again.

Jeff:       No, Toni will just cut it, it’s alright.  So, let’s get serious.

Matt:     Yes.

Jeff:       Carbohydrates, people have been asking for a long time for a podcast on Carbs.  There are so many things that I want to know, personally, as well.  I want to know about Fructose, is it really that bad, is it terrible that you should avoid it at all costs?  I want to know about waxy Maize?  I want to know about Carbohydrates timing, I want to know…

Matt:     Molecular weight?

Jeff:       Well, these are things that I’ve only got a small concept on but don’t really understand it, but timing of Carbs, maximising Muscle.  I think a lot of the guys and girls that are listening, who want to maximise Muscle, understand, “High GI Carbohydrates post workout increase Insulin which is going to promote more Muscle Mass,” and that’s probably about it as far as Carbohydrates timing.  And, even looking at the great coaches like Chris Thomas–and congratulations to him as well, and Rach White, who was on the show, Rach just won the WBFF World Title, looks amazing, an incredible physique—the way that they eat they don’t eat any Carbs in the beginning of the day, they eat all their Carbs in the evening.  This is, really, an oxymoron because most people will say, “You can eat Carbs during the day but no Carbs after 3 o’clock, a lot of people say that.

Matt:     Well, they often cycle too.  Carb cycling is probably one of the best strategies to switch around what substrate your body is going to use for fuel.

Jeff:       Well, the Keto Diet.

Matt:     Like, make Protein adequate, you can get Fat to the ideal level and then you can totally screw with your Carb timing and input amount to totally make freaky changes to your body, it’s a very powerful tool, Carbs.

Jeff:       It is.  And, you’ve even got the extremes with no Carbs, like the Keto Diet, and all sorts of Diets around Low GI Carbohydrates, yatter, yatter.

Matt:     We should also specify, when we’re talking about Carbohydrates—I spun out because I did a lot of my training in the Naturopathic world with all the hippies talking about Food Pyramids, and you know, the Naturopathic world talking about Diets and Carbs was so, so different.  When I came out and started talking to a lot of athletes and body builders telling me they’re having no Carbs and all that, I was just freaking out because classic training will tell you Carbohydrates, we’ve got Simply Sugars, Complex Carbs, Fibre, all that stuff is categorised at Carbohydrates, and then when I came into the sporting world and people were saying, “I don’t have Carbs, I only have Sweet Potato.”

Jeff:       Hang on a minute, that’s a Carb.  Do you put the sweet potato up your—“But it doesn’t count.”

Matt:     I suppose you don’t count them do you?

Jeff:       No, I’m not counting, I’m not telling.

Matt:     Basically, when I’m referring to Carbohydrates I’m talking, predominantly, about anything that contributes Glucose to your Bloodstream, and then we’ll have to specify that as we go, and we must always remember to go back to what our listeners may be thinking, which is, “Are we talking about leafy greens, Starchy Carbs, Simple Carbs and Complex Carbs?”  It’s a complicated thing, but we’ll try to simplify it and give you some practical stuff because you want to know what to go and do not just be freaked out.

Jeff:       People have been interested to hear your viewpoint on this for over 12 months, and I’ve been going back having a look at some of the podcasts where we touch on it, and we’ve mentioned a few things, but we really haven’t broken it down into a lot of depth.  It’s such a massive subject we can’t get through it all today, but are there some specific things that you really want to talk about?

Matt:     Today I really want to talk about things like Gastric Emptying.

Jeff:       Well, we’re reformulating the INFRARED.

Matt:     Yeah, we’re reformulating the INFRARED.  It’s very strange because words like Gastric Emptying, the point I’m trying to make with Gastric Emptying, when you’re performing, when you’re competing, when you’re training and racing and  that sort of stuff, you don’t want a gut full of stuff.  If you get a gut full of Carbs you end up with a Gut full of Water and all of a sudden it starts fermenting and you’re getting a gut full of gas, that’s where the Nausea, the Bloating, the Diarrhoea and all that comes from, it’s trying to jam in enough Carbohydrates to stimulate growth, hypertrophy, or to fuel hours’ worth of exercise in one big dose into your gut, and the problem with that is the Bloating, and subsequently, often Diarrhoea, Nausea, Vomiting while trying to perform at your best.

Regardless of Aminos and all the other stuff you can do with a formula, you can cancel all that out by making someone feel crook, or just queasy in the guts, you combine that with nerves, you combine that with changes in Diet and stuff like that, it can totally ruin the day and nothing else works especially if you’re shooting it out behind you on the bike.

So, when people talk about Gastric Emptying what we’re mainly talking about is getting the Carbohydrates out of the Digestive Tract, not just out of the Stomach, out of the Digestive Tract and getting those Sugars into your Bloodstream so that way Insulin will spike to take that Sugar out of the Bloodstream and put it into Cells, and that sort of stuff.

The reason I’m talking about this first is, a lot of marketing behind Carbohydrate ingredients—there are a lot of big companies out there trying to make unique Carbohydrate things for different purposes, and they market them certain ways, and it gets so damn confusing.  So, one of the first things I’m looking at is Gastric Emptying.  A lot of people used to criticise or question why I would us Maltodextrin and Dextrose.  The reason why I did, and I’ve been doing it for years, and that’s what I put in INFRARED, is because they’re predictable.  If I get the right supplier who makes it in enough bulk and I know the Molecular Weight.  From batch to batch Maltodextrin and Dextrose from the same supplier will be exactly the same.  So, by the time you find a good manufacturer, non-GMO sources, all that sort of stuff, you can get Maltodextrin and Dextrose, and they may not be the greatest things, but they are the most predictable and the most consistent.  So, when you’re giving it to an athlete they know what to expect, and from batch to batch things aren’t going to change in the guts.  That can’t be said for a lot of the other experimental Carbs out there.  We understand the Gastric Emptying time of Maltodextrin and Dextrose, so we know what’s going to happen.

Jeff:       It’s relatively rapid, correct?

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       It’s in and out, it doesn’t ferment, it gets into the Bloodstream, the body can use it straight away for energy.

Matt:     Each supplier and manufacturer will make a different one, but once you find the one that gives you the right Gastric Emptying with the right Molecular Weight and all that sort of stuff, the length of Glucose Polymers Chain, all that sort of stuff will determine how that’s going to act in the body, so then if you buy the same stuff over and over again, and we get it consistent.

Jeff:       So, are the variances small or large in Maltodextrin?

Matt:     Oh yeah.  Each different supplier they have a different methodology, they have different proprietary knowledge and trade secrets they use to make their product, some are better drying agents, some are better flow agents, some are better as a Sugar, and some are used purely to improve the mixability of a Herbal extract, so they’re used for different purposes, so it depends on your intended purpose which Maltodextrin you would purpose.  And Dextrose is pretty much Simple Sugar, it’s just Glucose, so that doesn’t really matter and if it’s pure it doesn’t matter, but Maltodextrin some can react differently, but once you work it out they can make it consistent every time.

Jeff:       It’s typically made from Corn but can be made from Grapes and other things like that as well.

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       Mainly now most of the products you see in the market are Corn, aren’t they?

Matt:     Yeah.  The hard bit is just making sure that you go back—because, they can say, “Yeah, our Maltodextrin, everything we do here is legit and clean,” and you say, “We need a declaration of your starting material,” so for everything we get, we get starting material declarations to make sure it’s not coming from ‘Evilcorp’ and all that, and there’s no other—so, they can say, “Yeah, we use non GMO Glucose, but we’ve got a genetically modified organism in a little step in between that converts that into—so, we don’t want that either.

So, Gastric Emptying, it’s all about understanding what it is.  So, for example, some companies out there that have been marketing their source of Sugars, and one of the main reasons why it’s good is Fast Gastric Emptying.

Jeff:       Are you talking about the Waxy Maize sort of thing, Matt?

Matt:     Mate, if we talk about Waxy Maize and then it will just be like—that’s the perfect example of…

Jeff:       Bad marketing?

Matt:     No, inconsistency.  Waxy Maize you can’t—it’s the—let’s talk about it.

Jeff:       I’ve never actually seen that, you became tongue tied.

Matt:     Well, this is the thing with Waxy Maize, I don’t really know what to say about it, each batch can be different, each supplier is different, every study I’ve read is totally different.  It’s the most contradictory thing on earth.  So, when they talk about High Molecular Weight Sugars Waxy Maize, apparently, has a High Molecular Weight.

Jeff:       What is it’s job?

Matt:     High Molecular Weight, apparently, has faster Gastric Emptying.  So, High Molecular Weight stuff will leave the Stomach faster, therefore, in theory, get into the body faster and all that.  But, there’s a little bit more to that story I do want to touch on though.  With the High Molecular Weight, the theory behind it—I’m not even sure if allowed to mention brands or anything.

Jeff:       No, you can’t mention brands, don’t mention brands.

Matt:     So, if you Googled High Molecular Weight Glucose Polymers ranging with a Molecular Weight of 500,000 to 700,000 you’d probably find what I’m talking about.  But, what they found is High Molecular Weight stuff leaves the Stomach quickly.  This is the problem, Waxy Maize is what they call a Resistant Starch, and a Resistant Starch is supposed to linger in the Stomach and not be absorbed quickly.  So, what they have is a Resistant Starch with a high Molecular Weight, so they’re saying, “Fast Gastric Emptying but slow absorption.”

Jeff:       So, it gets out of your—hang on.

Matt:     You said it, exactly then.  Say that again.

Jeff:       So, it’s getting out of your stomach?

Matt:     Not into your Blood but into your Bowel.

Jeff:       Oh.

Matt:     So, this is the thing, you can have Fast Gastric Emptying which suggests—okay, so if I’m looking at the Stomach and I want to make a claim of Fast Gastric Emptying I can look at just the Stomach part of the Digestive Tract and say, “The Gastric Emptying of the Stomach is extremely fast,” but it’s in the Small Intestine, not in the Bloodstream, which is why the studies on those High Molecular Weights don’t necessarily show Insulin spikes and changes to Blood Glucose.

Jeff:       That’s smart.

Matt:     So, they go through and say, “Okay, we’ve got Fast Gastric Emptying and therefore you’re going to get less Bloating, Nausea and that sort of stuff.”  Well, not necessarily.  A lot of the Nausea and Bloating comes from fermentation in the Intestine, so it’s moving out of the Stomach quickly, but if anyone’s got any Intestinal Dysbiosis, if you’ve got Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency, if you can’t break down those Carbs you’re going to get Bloating, Distention, fullness, which is why some people love the stuff and some people hate the stuff.  Some people say, “It leaves my Stomach, I feel really good,” other people say, “Man, the Bloating and the fullness I get from this stuff is insane.”  Interestingly, with Waxy Maize, if you then go and have a look at the studies in humans that says, “What does it do to our Blood?” it did exactly the same as white bread.

Jeff:       Oh wow!

Matt:     But, that was one batch from one supplier.  Another batch from another supplier may be totally different.

Jeff:       Fair enough.

Matt:     The companies that are selling the Waxy Maize are actually quoting research from the other High Molecular Weight stuff that isn’t even Maize, it’s not Corn necessarily.  The other companies that do the High Molecular Weight Sugars that claim Fast Gastric Emptying that’s sometimes Barley, Rice, Potato, they can get it from anything, really, they’re just looking for that particular Molecular Weight that shows Fast Gastric Emptying.  Interestingly, I found the studies they quote from, which directly say within the study that it leaves the Stomach and goes into the Small Intestine, and surprisingly, made no change to Insulin and Glucose.  Then the same ingredient, from the same people, was studied with eight people…

Jeff:       That’s not a big study.

Matt:     No, eight people, it’s not statistically significant so you can’t make statistically significant statistics from it, or claims and conclusions.  Then, they did another little study on those eight-people using the same ingredients with almost the same methodology that they could create an Insulin and Glucose spike from consuming it.  So, we’ve got all these studies here showing Fast Gastric Emptying, but the goal of those studies is to show Fast Gastric Emptying not Insulin, so they just happen to mention in there, “No change to Insulin and Glucose.”  So, the same stuff used by the same people using the same methodology but only eight of them turned up, did show Glucose and Insulin, but it’s not a big enough group to be able to draw a conclusion.  There are studies on the Gastric Emptying but that only had six people as well.  So, it’s interesting to see that these massive companies can come out and quote all this, “Back by science,” and all that sort of stuff, but the science is not legit.

Jeff:       But, this is where Winston Churchill knew exactly what was going on here, because he said, “A lie gets half way around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”  How quickly is information shared?  People share information, and this is a little story and it makes sense.  So, there is a guy in Target and he was taking a photo of the new Darth Vada.  He was by himself and he had his phone, his son wanted it, and he felt a little bit awkward but he got up and took a photo with Darth Vada to show his son.  Anyway, there were a couple of boys there who were playing next to him and he just laughed and he goes, “What do you think of that, kids?”  The mum looked over and saw him with his phone in his hand talking to these two kids and then proceeded to follow him as he walked out, called the cops and she snapped a photo of him and put it up on the internet going, “Watch out for this guy, he’s a paedophile perve.”

Matt:     Oh God.

Jeff:       So, what happened, that went around the world.  This guy was an executive, he was in a board meeting, he got a telephone call from the police, basically because they had tracked him down on social media, he had death threats, he had, “You’re the scum of the earth,” and all the rest of it.  So, this is problem, do you see the point of my story?

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       People share and disseminate information now so readily and so quickly that they don’t actually bother to do any sort of research or fact checking.

Matt:     Check, share a reference and not the same reference.

Jeff:       It’s the same sort of thing.  And, you were showing me, Matt, one of these papers which was literally three paragraphs…

Matt:     It’s actually only one page.

Jeff:       One page and yet it looks like a white paper, but it’s a brochure, it’s crap.

Matt:     Interestingly, the ones you’re referring to, and this is the funniest bit about it, one of these companies that hasn’t done a lot of science on their products—they haven’t done that much.  The first study that they quote from had six blokes in it, and that basically showed Fast Gastric Emptying out of the Stomach into the Bowel, and no changes to Blood Sugar and Insulin because it’s in the Bowel.  They then did a study with 13 this time, and this is the one showing that Fasted Muscle Glycogen synthesis, and that was a good one.  So, this High Molecular Weight stuff definitely does seem to improve Glycogen Resynthesis.  So, the High Molecular way Carbs—I don’t know how exactly, but a couple of these studies have suggested that it’s faster for Glycogen than a Simple Sugar.  I don’t know.

Interestingly, the other study that had eight blokes that showed the Insulin changes, so they’ve got all these studies, two of them say no Insulin changes, the third one, specifically designed to look for Insulin changes, found Insulin changes and the other ones didn’t.

Jeff:       Isn’t it funny that they found what they were looking for?

Matt:     Yeah.  And, you can totally screw with Insulin secretions purely through Glycogen depletion.  So, for example, if I wanted to show Fast Glycogen Resynthesis I could cause Glycogen depletion but if I wanted to show high Insulin Secretion I wouldn’t deplete the Glycogen, because when you’re Glycogen Depleted you are Insulin Sensitive, so your body secretes less Insulin in a Glycogen Depleted state.

Jeff:       Because, the body is almost sucking it in, isn’t it?

Matt:     Exactly.  And, through GLUT4 transports not Insulin.

Jeff:       So, we can clearly show that, obviously, you can manipulate a lot of these studies.

Matt:     Oh yeah.

Jeff:       Again, a lot of athletes are getting a lot out of this part of it because they understand Waxy Maize and all the rest of it.

Matt:     I’ll give you some other cool shit in a sec.

Jeff:       Yeah, keep going.

Matt:     These three studies, you know how I was saying it’s like six, 13, five or whatever…

Jeff:       That’s people in the studies?

Matt:     People, yeah.  These were all done around the year 2000 and published on the webpages and everything…

Jeff:       And, billions of dollars being made.

Matt:     Exactly.  Then, in 2015 they had another crack at it and this time tried to do it with 16 people in each study using very similar protocols, the same company funded it and everything, this time it showed no change.  It didn’t show change to anything, Insulin, Gastric Emptying, nothing changed, but these ones don’t happen to be on their webpage.

Jeff:       I was just about to say, “They’re not making any more marketing brochures.”

Matt:     No.  And, in fact, the only way I found these is when I was reading through it just rang a few memories about the other trials so I went and had a look at the author details because in these studies you’ve got to click this little tab and open it up and it will tell you who the author is, where they’re from, who they work for, and it’s usually the company.  But, they’re also supposed to disclose conflicts of interest, and they’re all in there.  This actual journal that they have it in is one of those ones where they’re looking for content and you just submit stuff and they publish it.  But, it’s one page, Man.  But anyway, it didn’t show any of the things that they’d previously showed and built a whole company on, so they just chose not to share this stuff and just hide that away.

So, the cool thing is, what we do know from this research, for everyone out there, High Molecular Weight stuff—you know Glutinous Rice?  There’s Amylopectin in Glutinous Rice.

Jeff:       What’s Amylopectin?

Matt:     That’s a really gluggy gel like starch that comes off the rice, that’s what we’re talking about, that’s a High Molecular Weight Carbohydrate, so people who eat Glutinous Rice and that sort of stuff will be getting this stuff anyway.  But, that stuff seems to be pretty good at replenishing Glycogen, that’s the point.  As far as Gastric Emptying it doesn’t seem to do much because they’ve never proved that it actually leaves the Stomach and go into the body fast, it just leaves the Stomach and goes into the Small Intestine because it’s a big gel like structure that goes all gluggy, heavy and like jelly.

Jeff:       So it takes time to get that down into the Bloodstream?

Matt:     Yeah, it gets digested pretty quickly, it just seems to leave the Stomach.

Jeff:       It’s weird.

Matt:     Yeah, it’s very strange.

Jeff:       Just about these studies, I don’t have a problem with companies funding research because a lot of the time that’s how innovation and things…

Matt:     You have to.

Jeff:       Who else is going to do it?  Well, anyone else that does it for your company is going to fund their research with their motives, which will be destroying you.

Matt:     Yeah, exactly.

Jeff:       So, Matt, in terms of Carbohydrates, moving on from that, in terms of performance fuel, and again, a lot of these Waxy Maizes and things were designed, originally, for people wanting to put on more Muscle Mass to get superior Glycogen Replenishment and things like that.

Matt:     And, Insulin spikes.

Jeff:       So, so far, from your investigation probably the majority of those things don’t really seem to hold up to scrutiny?

Matt:     No, not those.  And, this is the thing, when you’re looking at Carbohydrates, and this is a very simple concept which is true, every different form of Carbohydrate has a slightly different form of digestion and absorption.  If you overload the Stomach with any particular one type of Carbohydrate that requires one transport pump and one combination of Enzymes, it will overwhelm the system.  The numbers that are used in these studies to show Glycogen Replenishment, these people are supplementing with 300grams of Carbohydrate post exercise.

Jeff:       Holy snap.

Matt:     Some of them 100grams.  So, they’re looking at 100grams to 300grams of pure Carb.

Jeff:       Wow!

Matt:     Yeah, it’s fucking crazy numbers.  And, that’s what they do to create these big changes in your body.  So, when we’re looking for the average person that’s looking at Carbohydrates to fuel performance, stimulate Hypertrophy, what we’re looking for is Fast Gastric Emptying, we want it out of the Stomach and into the body relatively quickly so it’s not there.  And, then what we do is we want some coming through doing that to get a big Insulin spike, but if you have a massive Insulin spike with a very fast Sugar, typically, you get a reactive Hypoglycaemia.

Jeff:       Yeah, Blood Sugar levels drop.

Matt:     So, typically, what would be ideal is you want some to come in quickly, you want some to come in slightly slower.  You want some to stimulate the Insulin spike, and then the other ones that trickly through, the Insulin is already there driving it into the Muscles and that to be used as fuel.

Jeff:       And, maintain a good Blood Sugar level.

Matt:     Yeah, exactly.  Otherwise you go up and then you go down, and then you need to bring yourself back up again.

Jeff:       You crash, yeah.  And, Sugar cravings and that later on.

Matt:     Exactly, and if you don’t give the Sugar it will make it from the Liver and the Muscle.

Jeff:       Right, so you will actually go Catabolic?

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       So, Gluconeogenesis?

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       Wow!

Matt:     Exactly.  So, what happens, if you get too big of a spike and you get a reactive Hypo because you’ve secreted too much Insulin for the amount of Sugar.  Because, the way GI worked, the Glycaemic Index, we have had thousands of years to evolve with certain amounts of food, we’re used to certain foods.  We’ve only had a few generations to get used to high refined foods and then these weird Glucose Polymers and stuff like that.  So, your tongue and your smell, everything like that is trying to predict how much Sugar is coming through.  So, when you’ve got something highly refined and it hits the tongue, the body is basically saying, “Okay, after this many seconds we are getting this much Sugar through.  Based on our knowledge over generations and generations we must have consumed a wheelbarrow full of Sugar, there must be so much Sugar on its way through,” because in Nature anything that intense or that fast with Sugar is just dose dependently huge, you’ve eaten ridiculous amounts of Sugar.  So, in preparation for that Sugar coming in your body secretes Insulin, so the more simple the Sugar or the faster your body senses this Sugar in the Sugar Molecule, the more Insulin your body secretes, and that’s what we talk about as GI, the Glycaemic Index.

Jeff:       And, for guys and girls building Muscle, Insulin we know is more Anabolic even than Testosterone, so there is a benefit to obviously replacing the Glycogen content, spiking the Insulin, a powerful Anabolic.

Matt:     Hypertrophy, yeah.

Jeff:       So, for Fat Loss you almost want the opposite?

Matt:     Yeah, exactly.  Which is why most Fat Loss strategies cut the Carbs, to get the Insulin out of the way and keep you Glycogen Depleted to keep you Burning Fat.

Jeff:       Is it true that you cannot Burn Fat while Insulin is present in the Bloodstream?

Matt:     I don’t know.  I don’t know if we’ve got the technology to know.  I wouldn’t want to comment.  In theory, Insulin inhibits Carnitine Palmitoyltransferase which is the delivery for Fat into the body.  So, Insulin does tell the body, “Don’t Burn Fat, and instead it upregulates Methylmalonyl-CoA which sucks Sugar in.

Jeff:       So, Acetyl L-Carnitine, which you take to help Oxidise Fat, Burns Fat in the Mitochondria?

Matt:     Via Carnitine Palmitoyltransferase.

Jeff:       That’s right.  Therefore, in theory, if Insulin is being released that down regulates that, so therefore, at the very least, Matt, it would be a handbrake for Burning Fat?

Matt:     Exactly.  So, do you want to add your Carnitine to juice or do you want to have sweetened Carnitine?

Jeff:       No.

Matt:     Yeah, because you’ll get the Insulin and it will actually block the Enzyme that it’s fuelling.

So, Gastric Emptying for Glycaemic Index—so, what we’re looking is the highly refined stuff gets absorbed quickly, triggers an exaggerated Insulin response.  You mentioned earlier Fructose, and this is a classic.

Jeff:       I’m sitting on the edge of my seat.

Matt:     Are you?  Why?

Jeff:       I am, I’m really keen to find out what’s going on with this.

Matt:     Fructose, the fruit Sugar…

Jeff:       Because, if Carbs are from the Devil then Fructose is the Devil’s—I don’t know, what’s above that?

Matt:     Well, I tell you what, the forbidden fruit was full of it, wasn’t it.  So yeah, Fructose must be bad, Apples, Oranges, Bananas, Honey…

Jeff:       They sound horrendous.

Matt:     All of these terribly toxic things that we eat, and of course, we’ve always been told, “Don’t eat too much fruit.”

Jeff:       Especially Bananas, if they’re ripe, which seem to have some unbelievable properties as anti-tumours.

Matt:     So, no Fructose is not evil.

Jeff:       But, let me say this as well, Matt, as you and I have been talking, obviously, in building this company over the last few years, and one of the things I consistently love about you is you’re going back and as you’re researching and you’re finding things you’re not going, “Oh no, that doesn’t agree with my perspective, it must be wrong,” you actually investigate it.  And, you have, several times gone, “You know what?  This is what I used to believe but I’ve discovered that is not true, and the evidence proves this.”

Matt:     Yeah, because I’m a sceptic.

Jeff:       The same thing with me too with regards to fruit, people are always going, “You cannot eat fruit, fruit is from the Devil, it’s no good,” and I’m sitting there going, “Mate, there is so much great nutrients in fruit, not just the Vitamins and Minerals.”

Matt:     I’ll simplify it very easily; Fructose is not High Fructose Corn Syrup.  The problem is, Fructose is the natural Sugar found in fruit.  It is relatively hard for the body to digest and break down the bonds in Fructose, which makes it a slow release, relatively Simple Sugar.  The cool thing about Fructose is you absorb it relatively quickly in the Smaller Intestine, it doesn’t get all the way to the Large Intestine because it’s not a Complex Molecule, therefore it doesn’t feed a lot of the bad bugs and that sort of stuff.

Jeff:       Well, that’s good.

Matt:     But, it’s Glycaemic Index is around 20.

Jeff:       Well, that’s good too.  For people who don’t understand the Glycaemic Index, Sugar is 100.

Matt:     Glucose is 100.

Jeff:       And, that’s going to create an Insulin spike.

Matt:     Exactly.

Jeff:       Moderate is 40 to 60-ish?  And, Low is below 40 right?

Matt:     Yeah, something like that, 100 is pure Sugar.

Matt:     So, High Fructose Corn Syrup is around 100.  So, High Fructose Corn Syrup behaves just like Glucose in the body, it is that processed and refined.  Yes, it was originally derived from Corn, they get Fructose out of Corn but they then highly refine it and pretty much turn it into Glucose Syrup.  So, it’s so far from Fructose that it is now absorbed as if it is not Fructose, it’s pure Glucose, and then it has a totally different effect.  So, when you’re eating Fructose in fruits then you get relatively little Insulin secretion, you get a relatively slow absorption, and because of it’s relatively slow absorption there are a few people out there that are Intolerant of Fructose, it causes a lot of Bloating and Gas and that sort of stuff.  But, not High Fructose Corn Syrup; High Fructose Corn Syrup is so processed and refined it goes straight through and causes massive Insulin spikes.  So, basically, Fructose is pretty cool.  Sucrose is white table Sugar mainly.

Jeff:       That comes from Sugar Cane.

Matt:     That’s found in Beetroot, so hence the name Sugar Beet, it contains a lot of Sucrose as well.  So, the thing is, if I was to find one perfect Sugar and I was to give that to you in a big enough dose to supply your Carbohydrate requirements it would cause Gut problems because having a Simple Single Sugar overwhelms one particular pathway and it backlogs.  So, in Nature, and what we’ve found with all the absorption and Gastric Emptying is combinations are the best, you want lots of different little sources of Carbohydrate combined together because they all use different Enzyme systems and they’ll get absorbed at slightly different points, and that way you’ll get Fast, you’ll get Medium, you’ll get slightly Slower.  What we don’t want in a performance product is really Slow Carbs, which have the Low Molecular Weight and the Resistant Starches, they’re the ones that take ages, and they get all the way down into your Lower Bowel and they start causing Osmotic Diarrhoea where all the water rushes in to dilute them and you get the green apple splatters in the middle of your triathlon, and that’s what causes the Bloating and the Fullness, and the Farting and Gurgling and all that sort of stuff.

So, basically, for performance you want a bit of Fructose, you want some Sucrose, you want Dextrose, which is just pure Glucose, and then you want some of these Higher Molecular Weight Amylopectin stuff as well, to create that nice gel and also create different effects in the body, because the combination will actually help to get things through at different points.

Jeff:       That’s awesome.

Matt:     So, if you have a look at Glucose and Dextrose, they’re the same sort of thing, and they probably act very similarly to a High Fructose Corn Syrup with a Glycaemic Index of 100.  So, we want those ones that are Simple, that come in, taste good, smack it in.

Jeff:       Do the job.  But, then follow it up with more of a Medium to Lower GI Sugar so that you don’t get the Glycaemic…

Matt:     I’ll tell you another funny one, and I could never understand this, but you know how everyone started using Rice Malt as an alternative sweetener?  It was a phase where everyone was going, “We’ve got to sweeten everything up with Rice Malt because it’s got such a Low GI compared to Sugars,” because they published that it was around 20 or something, the GI for Maltose from Rice Malt.  But, it’s actually closer to 100, it’s such an intense sweetness on the tongue that it creates this crazy Insulin spike.

Jeff:       Wow!

Matt:     So, Rice Malt is really, really interesting, but any Malt really; Maltose is an amazing Sugar, it’s got a lot of other—it’s very easily digested, very Fast Gastric Emptying.  Fructose has a slow GI around 20.

Jeff:       Xylitol is pretty slow as well, which comes Birch and from Corn as well, too.

Matt:     Yeah, but they’re Modified Starches.  The whole point of them is they have almost no absorption, and if you go and spike it up with that it can cause a lot of Gut problems.  I’m glad you brought that up, this is interesting; it doesn’t have to be labelled.  Because it’s a Modified Starch they don’t have to talk about it as a Carbohydrate source, or as a Resistant Carbohydrate.

Jeff:       Or as Calories?

Matt:     Yeah.  They don’t have to talk about the Calorie yield because it doesn’t quite fit in the Nutrition Panel, and the Nutrition Panel has to add up to give you the number at the top.  You’ve seen Nutrition Panels, Protein, Carbohydrate, Fat.  So, this thing is a Modified Starch because we’ve made a Sugar Alcohol waxy sort of molecule that is no longer a Carb, it’s no longer a Fat, it’s in between and there’s no place for that in the Nutrition Panel.  It does have a Calorific value—sounds like terrific when I say that, eh?

Jeff:       Calorific, it makes dining sound enjoyable.

Matt:     Calorific.  Yeah, and extraordinary.  What was I talking about?

Jeff:       Extraordinary.

Matt:     Extraordinary shit like that.  So, that’s about that.

Let me tell you one more thing about Fructose, because this is another thing that makes me—it always pops into my mind when people say Fructose is High GI and evil and bad and everything.  The Glycaemic Index of Honey—Honey is a combination of Fructose and Glucose, so the GI of Honey can range from 45 to 65, it’s quite broad.  And, what determines the GI is its content of Fructose; the more Fructose in that particular batch of Honey the lower the GI.

Jeff:       Wow!  I’m going to have to find this out now because I love Honey.

Matt:     Oh Man, you should see the stuff that I’ve got coming through.

Jeff:       What?

Matt:     Local organic Honey from South East Queensland.

Jeff:       Yeah, my mate actually got a couple of hives, I get it from him, and it changes colour through the seasons as well.

Matt:     And, a lot of the Fructose content will change, depending on what they’re feeding them.

Jeff:       The dark Honey versus the light Honey.

Matt:     Yeah, and you can taste the sweetness, the different levels of sweetness.

Jeff:       I love Honey, and they reckon it never goes off, so Antibiotic properties.  I mean it’s got to be good for you.  And, this is the thing, I look at this and the properties of Honey and using Honey in your tea instead of…

Matt:     You know Honey heals Ulcers, it does leg Ulcers.  If you’ve got any wounds or anything like that Honey smashes it, Honey is really good for Oral Infections as well.  If you get a wound or something and you totally cover it in Honey what happens is, you starve the area of Oxygen, and where that Honey interacts with the skin it creates Hydrogen Peroxide.

Jeff:       Really?

Matt:     And, that Hydrogen Peroxide burns the surface of the wound, sterilises the whole thing, and creates exaggerated healing.  It’s funny, because Diabetics, for example, get a lot of leg Ulcers because they’ve got high Blood Sugar, and then they go and cover the thing in Honey to kill the infection, and you’re going, “Man, those bugs are there because they’re feeding on Sugar and you’re going and covering them in Sugar,” but once there’s that percentage of Sugar it becomes a sterilising agent, or a preservative, which is why it doesn’t go off.

Jeff:       The other thing, Matt, in terms of Manuka Honeys, especially from New Zealand, and I know we’ve got some here in Australia as well, but they talk about that rating.  You see it on the side of the jars, that little 30, the antibacterial—what’s that?

Matt:     That’s to do with the pollens, so depending on what plant they’re feeding on it determines what properties go into the Honey.  Have you ever used Propolis?

Jeff:       No, what’s that?

Matt:     Propolis is this stuff that the bees line the inside of their hives with to stop the fungi and mould and bacteria getting into the hives.

Jeff:       What, do they make it?

Matt:     Yeah, bees make it, and they use it as an Antimicrobial to protect themselves and their hives.

Jeff:       We need that.

Matt:     Yeah, it’s cool stuff, Man.  I use it all the time.  It’s a really good source of Chrysin and that as well, the Anti-Estrogen compound Chrysin.  Propolis is amazing, and it’s one of my favourite things because it tastes beautiful.

Jeff:       Why can’t we use that?

Matt:     We don’t use it as a Carbohydrate source, you use it as an Immune product.

Jeff:       That’s what I’m saying.

Matt:     It is the best thing for the Immune System, Tonsillitis and that sort of stuff.  I make Propolis lollypops and my boys sit there and smack down the Propolis lollypops.

Jeff:       Nice.

Matt:     Bee pollen is where you’re getting a lot of those other products from.  Do you know how they harvest bee pollen?

Jeff:       No.

Matt:     This is interesting, it’s funny.  Sorry everyone that I get so distracted.

Jeff:       Toni will cut it if it’s not interesting.

Matt:     The way they harvest bee pollen is they put tiny little brooms on the inside of the hive and as the bees come in they brush their feet and it collects the pollen off their feet.

Jeff:       That’s too cool.  And, Royal Jelly as well, that’s pretty cool as well, that’s got some cool properties.  But, you can’t give it to Asthmatics though, right?

Matt:     Yeah, because some Asthmatic who was allergic to bees had it once and died.  I personally was a really bad Asthmatic and there was this old Ginseng Royal Jelly tonic which I personally believe was a major thing that changed my Asthma around; Mum used to buy this stuff and I used to swig it out of the bottle and I used to love it.  I used to avoid all my other medicine and I used to swig this stuff.

Jeff:       What does Royal Jelly do?

Matt:     It’s an Immune tonic, that’s the way they talk about it.  Again, a lot of those things, as typical with Nature, they vary from location to location because it all depends on what the environment has available for the bees to feed on and all that stuff.

Jeff:       Cool.  That makes sense.  Matt, let’s change topic again; so Fructose is actually not bad?

Matt:     No, Fructose is good.  High Fructose Corn Syrup is not.  High Fructose Corn Syrup is a highly processed refined Sugar syrup.

Jeff:       So, for people that are maybe not counting Calories so much but they’re trying to lose a little bit of weight, a little bit of fruit is not going to kill you?

Matt:     No.

Jeff:       And, obviously, it varies through the fruits as well, some fruits are higher GI than others?

Matt:     And, what determines that is fibre.  So, you can lower the GI of any food by combining it with Fat and Fibre and Protein, so that’s the way to do it.  For example, Bananas are High GI and Strawberries are Low GI, mix the two together you get Medium GI, and throw some Nuts and Seeds over the top of that with the Oil and the Fibre and you’ve got Low GI.

Jeff:       And, Banana as it ripens becomes higher in the Sugar content.  Is that because the Fibre breaks down?

Matt:     Yeah.  Basically, the Resistance Starch that’s found in Green Bananas is a very complex Sugar Molecule.  Over time little parts of the Sugar start breaking off and it becomes less Complex.  Then what happens the Simple Sugars start getting incorporated into the skin and as they Oxidise they go black.  That’s why the crust of your bread is brown and the inside of your bread is not, because the Sugar is Oxidised.

Jeff:       Matt, what else?

Matt:     What else do you want to know?  You’re the question man.

Jeff:       Is there anything else you want to share today?  We’ve talked about Carbohydrate Timing for Weight Loss and Muscle Building, so we’ve covered that, so I think that’s enough.

Matt:     I think it’s enough.  A lot of our podcasts on Fat Loss and Muscle Gain will talk about the Timing of the Carbs.

The other point I should probably make is it is possible to create a Carbohydrate Electrolyte performance product, like the one we’re revamping with INFRARED that is suitable for all different types of sports, the challenge is, how do you use it for each different sport.  So, we’ll probably do another podcast about that later, because body builders that want to stimulate Muscle Hypertrophy and they want to do a big bang and hit everything pretty hard would use it totally differently to someone that’s got to be on the bike for the next five hours.  So, it’s all about timing of the dose for your particular objective.

Jeff:       Okay, and that’s where the complexity comes in.



Jeff:       Let’s do some FAQs.

This one is from Dan:  “Dear Matt and Jeff.  Firstly, I would like to say I love the podcast, great content you guys pump out, it’s seriously is some of the best advice out there.  It’s great listening and I appreciate, as do many no doubt, the way that you guys convey the message behind all of your products not to mention the ideology of who ATP Science are.  I have been listening for a while now and I’m trying to make my way through each and every podcast as content is so good that I felt compelled to sit down and write you guys an email to say thanks as well as to ask some advice.

                A quick brief on my background:  I’m 34, 82 kilos, and I’m seemingly a normal father of two.  I’ve made great transformation over the years and have turned my body around for the better.  Previous to that I weighed 118 kilos in my early 20s.  I’m extremely active, very fit and focus a lot of my time on weight training but my passion is mountain biking downhill very fast, but I mix it up with cross country riding and road riding.  Recently I was listening to the Vasodilation episode, Part 1 & 2 and took notes on Citrulline Malate, L-Carnitine Tartrate and Beta-alanine.  I purchased these individually and began making my own pre-workout mix and straight away my performance increased both with my weight training and riding.  I was also able to punch out more reps and even up my weight whilst riding, and was able to maintain a high cadence for much longer without fatiguing.  You boys really know what you’re talking about and I’ve been blown away by my progression.”

                That’s always nice to hear, Matt.

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       And, I love Citrulline Malate and Beta-alanine and I think they’re underused, and they’re not normally used in the right doses, in fact so much so I’ve had enough of it.  A lot of people are asking us for these things, so we’re bringing out a complete range of Aminos…

Matt:     Pure.

Jeff:       Pure, because we appreciate some people want to use more, and as Matt said, depending on what you goals are you might want 1gram or 3grams, depending on what you need.  So, stay tuned for that in the next month.

Matt:     It’s what the best athletes do, it’s what we do with our best athletes.

Jeff:       Yeah, and you can throw it in with the INFRARED if you want, it depends on what you’re trying to achieve.  So stayed tuned for that, Dan, we should have our own coming out.  We’re not doing Tartrate, it is a great product, but yeah, keep on the Tartrate as well but make sure you keep the Carbs in with the Tartrate to make it effective.

“So, now I have come to the point where I am ready to make the financial investment to ATP Science based on the above statement of your quality advice, but before I do I wanted to seek your collective advice on which products I need and what protocols I should be using them in.  I should also mention the following:  even though I have been successful in my weight loss I still carry the typical lower abdominal fat and love handle areas.  Certainly, not as bad but none the less no matter how hard I try or strict I am with my diet these never seem to fully disappear.  My diet is on point and I’m a seriously motivated individual.

Here is a list of products I’m looking to purchase but please tell me if I need all of them: 1:  CORT RX–by nature I’m not a big stress head but I do get down about the trouble spots on my body and I fear this raises my Cortisol levels.  2: ALPHA PRIME.  3: ALPHA MARS.  4: BLOCK E.  5: SUBCUT.  6: PROTOTYPE 8.  7: AMP V, this product sounds amazing.  I know that’s just about everything in the range, and after all the advice, which by the way, you guys, it’s like you’re talking to me, as if you can hear my thoughts and my concerns.  But, seriously, I think these will help me break through and get the body I’m after.  So, please let me know which order to take them/apply to the skin, etcetera.  If there is there anything else, I need to know please email me back because it would be cool to hear from you both.  Matt and Jeff, you guys are legends.  I love what you do.  Keep up the great work and I look forward to hearing from you, Cheers Dan.

Jeff:       Dan, thanks very much for a start, it’s really nice to know that people appreciate what we do and you’ve been very kind, and I’m really glad to hear that you’ve got good results from the Amino Acid protocols that were put forward.  The funny thing is, Matt and I laugh because we talk about it all the time in regards to our products, we create these products for our athletes, for our families and for ourselves as well, and it is difficult.

Matt:     Flip that order around, I think; ourselves and then our family.

Jeff:       That’s right.  It really comes down to what your goal is, and also what your problem areas are and what you’re trying to achieve as to which products you might need to use.  So, Matt, I’ll pass that over to you.  What do you think?

Matt:     I’ll run through how to use these for different things and it might help you create your protocol.  And, you’ll chop and change depending on whether you’re going to be doing your cycling or whether you’re doing your weight training and that sort of stuff.

Jeff:       What happens if he’s doing both at the same time?

Matt:     It’s totally different.  What, lifting weights and riding a bike?  That’s pretty impressive, especially downhill really fast.  He’s lost 40 kilos, he doesn’t have to do everything, lifting weights at the same time.

So, basically, CORT RX there are so many different ways to take it.  If you’re going through a period of Anxiety and Panic, then take it throughout the day to keep yourself cool.  If you’re all cool through the day but you want to improve your quality of Sleep because you’re not waking up feeling awesome then take a couple at night.  If you’ve had an injury or that sort of stuff and you want to use it as an Anti-inflammatory you can take one or two of those capsules every couple of hours or three or four times a day.

Jeff:       I use it when I get Sinus, Matt, it knocks it on the head.

Matt:     Yeah, it’s a very powerful Anti-inflammatory for the Mucosa, it’s also very good for the Liver and all that, so it depends how you’re doing it.  In your case, just at a guess, I’d probably say take two before bed.

Jeff:       And, in terms of priorities, and I appreciate Dan is looking to take a fair bit of our stuff, but if we were to prioritise, for him, on a scale of one to 10 where would you say that product would be?

Matt:     That’s a tough question.

Jeff:       It’s like asking you to choose your first-born child.

Matt:     No, well it’s not, because if my first-born child was CORT RX he’s a bloody hard worker and good for everyone, and so there is really no reason not to use it apart from financial things, and that’s what we’ve got to appreciate.

Jeff:       That’s right.

Matt:     So, if I had to choose and I was Dan, I would use PRIME.  The reason why is because ALPHA PRIME has a massive dose of Tongkat Ali in it that can flatten your Cortisol at night as well.  And, it can also help to control the Cortisol Fat, but more importantly it will help to improve your Testosterone Estrogen Ratios that will help to change that body shape and improve recovery and that.  So, if I was you I would actually do a protocol of MARS and PRIME for a period of time and then, maybe, go onto the CORT RX as more of a maintenance thing so you actually live forever.

Jeff:       And, that’s an interesting point, Matt, because with the CORT RX for performance and everything sure it’s got benefits but they’re subtle, but as an NRF2 Activator…

Matt:     Don’t forget, the PRIME is also an NRF2 activator because of the Glucosinolates from the Broccoli, so it’s very powerful.  So, if I was you I’d probably do two MARS in the morning, and two MARS at night, and I’d probably poop–pop in two PRIME before bed.  Poop in!  You didn’t jump on that one, did you?  I’d poop in the bottle and give it Jeff and then I’ll get a different bottle and give it to Dan and say, “Take two of these at night.”

Jeff:       And, get him to drop some friends off at the pool or something?

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       Do you?

Matt:     No, I don’t.

Jeff:       Okay, well I won’t stop.

Matt:     No, I just said poop in the bottle.  But Dan, you can poop in the bottle.  Anyway…

Jeff:       Okay, get back to it.

Matt:     So, PRIME at night to work the same as the CORT RX to get you to sleep.  Do the MARS morning and night.  The MARS also has the Tongkat Ali so stacking that with the PRIME at night.  You could probably do two ALPHA PRIME in the morning as well if you want to get faster changes.

Now, with the SUBCUT and BLOCK E3, interestingly, if it’s Lower Abdominal stuff and it’s a lot of loose skin and fluid because you’ve lost 40 kilos I would just use the SUBCUT.  If it was extending like an isolated ring that goes around the hips and the lower back—why do you keep looking at me?

Jeff:       Put your shirt back on, Matt.  It’s weird.

Matt:     Yeah, stop isolating your ring.  So, if it’s like a full love handle spare tyre then I’d use the BLOCK E3 because there’s probably an Estrogen component, but if you’re looking at just tightening the skin and moving the last part out of the Lower Abdomen SUBCUT should nail that.  But, again, if you were one of my athletes I’d tell you to do both, and the way I’d tell you to do it would be BLOCK E3 twice a day after a shower, SUBCUT straight over the top of that, and then I’d do SUBCUT again before exercise.

Now, PROTOTYPE 8; when trying to build Muscle, so if you’re in the gym and you’re using it for weights, I would actually use the PROTOTYPE 8 towards the end of the workout.  So, I’d do you full workout, and when you’re coming into some final drop sets, super sets, butter up with your PROTOTYPE 8 and you’re going to get a crazy pump, it’s going fully blow you out.  That’s why I say do it at the end.  If you do it at the start it actually gets in the way of your workout sometimes because you’ve got too much pump.

Jeff:       The funny thing is, Matt, since we changed from the PROTOTYPE 7 to the PROTOTYPE 8 I actually don’t find it inhibits my work out because of the Rosemary, obviously.

Matt:     That’s right, the Rosemary.

Jeff:       But, we still do have some people who find it uncomfortable.

Matt:     Yeah, I’m like that, and it often depends on my Carbohydrates, so if I’m in a Carbohydrate Deficit I don’t get the pump, but if I’m loading up on the Carbs and I use PROTOTYPE 8 then you get all puffy and you can’t move.

Jeff:       Yeah.

Matt:     Anyway, PROTOTYPE 8 do it towards the end of your weight session and that way you can time it with your post-workout Nutrition because the PROTOTYPE 8 is going to drive the Protein and the Aminos and all your Carbs into your Muscles.

Jeff:       I always get these stats mixed up; a 30% increase in Glucose Disposal and 20% increase in Protein Synthesis, according to your research?

Matt:     Yeah, that’s right.

Jeff:       Which is significant, especially…

Matt:     Well, a 20% increase in Protein Synthesis was comparable to Dianabol.

Jeff:       Yeah.  The only difference is you’re only using this post-workout, or most people are.  A few of the athletes that we’ve got, high end guys, are using it four or five times a day.

Matt:     Yeah, they use it like moisturiser head to toe.

Jeff:       One of the guys we had was using it three times, and he’s actually upped it to five times now.

Matt:     The thing is, if you can just keep trickling it on, you keep a steady blood level of it, it’s probably the most potent Anabolic Natural thing I’ve seen.

Jeff:       Yeah, me too.  But, obviously, that takes a lot of dedication.  But, to get the major benefit out of it, I think, for that post-workout, I still love it, Matt.

Matt:     After your riding—if you’re on your mountain bike and you’re doing your cycling, don’t do PROTOTYPE 8 beforehand because you get too much pump in your legs and lower back.  So, do your PROTOTYPE 8 after and it will stimulate the Muscle Growth and that sort of stuff, and it’s also very good for recovery.

AMP V is bloody amazing, so throw it in everything.

Jeff:       I love AMP V, it’s probably my favourite product.

Matt:     I just smashed it in my coffee then while we did this podcast.

Jeff:       As you said, if I was going to choose, that’s my first born, that’s my favourite.

Matt:     Really?

Jeff:       Well, Omega 3, 5, 7, 9, I don’t get enough Omegas, and then you’ve got the CLA which I love as well, then you get the CLNA.

Matt:     Yeah, the CLNA that no one has.

Jeff:       And, what is CLNA again, Matt?

Matt:     Conjugated Linoleic Acid, so it’s a Conjugated form of the Omega 3 Oil, where the classic CLA we use is a Conjugated form of Omega 6, but Omega 3 is just so much more powerful.  The cool thing about CLNA after it’s done it’s PPAR Activation jobs and all of its cool stuff it actually converts to CLA on the way through.  So, it does all the CLNA jobs and then it converts to CLA and works with the other ones.

Jeff:       Not to mention an increase of 36% of grip strength.

Matt:     Yeah, 16% vertical jump.

Jeff:       So, you’re getting strength benefits, and then we haven’t even discussed what we sell it for which is the Fat Loss, Matt.

Matt:     I know, which is through the PPAR Regulation.

Jeff:       It increases Oxygenation in the Blood as well.

Matt:     And, then the Grapefruit is an Essential Oil that actually crosses the Blood/Brain barrier and Activates the Adrenaline Receptors the same as Adrenaline without having to go via the Adrenals.

Jeff:       So, in terms of AMP V, that’s why I love AMP.  And, even talking to some of our retailers who are selling the product they go, “Yeah, yeah, we give it to people for Fasted Cardio,” and that’s probably one eighth of what the product actually does.

Matt:     Yeah, and that’s an important one though, I’m so glad they’re doing that because otherwise those people doing Fasted Cardio they were smacking down Amphetamine like stimulants.

Jeff:       But seriously though, if people need Omegas take AMP.  If you need CLA take AMP.

Matt:     If you want an appetite suppressant, if you want stimulation of Fat Burn, you want Anti-inflammatory, use surfactant that breaks up Mucous, you want something that clears out the Airways and Sinuses, improve Oxygenation.

Jeff:       Before sports.  So, that’s why it’s my favourite.

Matt:     A couple of those things.  Just send him everything.  He said a lot of nice things.

Jeff:       Well, I probably feel like a bit of a tight arse.  I reckon he’s probably had a plan, he probably knows that we give stuff out to people whose emails get read, so he’s being extra nice, but that’s a good plan, Dan, so I’m paying that.

Matt:     Well played, Dan.

Jeff:       Let us know how you get on, Dan, and best wishes Mate, and thanks again for the nice comments, it’s very nice.


Okay, this one is from Mr X:  That sounds very spy versus spy.

“Hi guys, please help me.  I’m a 22-year-old who has a blood test confirmed Low Test levels. For about a year now I’ve been feeling the typical symptoms of Low Test.  So, I decided to find out for sure and sure enough I’m on the Low range.  I train hard and heavy, eat red meat, plenty of veg, Zinc, no alcohol, take Vitamin D.  So, you can imagine it’s a huge kick in the teeth at a time when I should be entering the prime of my life.  I feel like I had a lifestyle that should have been encouraging a High Test, but now I feel this issue is robbing me of all my progress in the gym, my mood, drive, etcetera.  After doing the bloods all my issues now make sense.  I don’t understand why someone of my age and my lifestyle would have Low Test.  This is very distressing for me as I feel I need to fix it ASAP before I get too desperate.  Can you guys help me?  Any advice would be appreciated, kind regards Mr X.”

So, Matt, can you help the X Man?

Matt:     Yeah.  A different X Man to the last one.

Jeff:       He didn’t have a problem with Test.

Matt:     Hell no.  Actually, to get a Low Test level on a blood test—when you get a blood test it’s a snap shot in time.  So, you’ve got to understand that Hormones actually work in pulses, so what happens it’s constantly assessing how much Testosterone you’ve got and then maybe adding a bit more, so it’s in a constant state of flux, and when they take out a sample with a blood test and measure that it doesn’t necessarily mean over a 24 hour period seven days a week you don’t have Test.  So, that’s the first thing I want point out, which is why, when we measure Testosterone levels, we also measure Luteinising Hormone and things like Follicle Stimulating Hormone, Estrogen, Progesterone.  They never measure Dihydrotestosterone, I really wish they would, because when someone’s got Low Test we need to work out, “Are you not making it, and why aren’t you making it?”  For example, if your Brain is screaming at your nuts with Luteinising Hormone saying, “Make Test, Make Test,” and your nuts aren’t responding then we know you’ve got nut problems.

Jeff:       Sounds like a horrible girlfriend.

Matt:     Yeah, Luteinising Hormone.

Jeff:       Screaming at your nuts, go.

Matt:     How do you make that Luteinising Hormone?

Jeff:       Kick her in the guts.

Matt:     Anyhoo, that’s terribly awesome.

Jeff:       That’s so going to be cut.

Matt:     No, it’s not, leave that in.

Jeff:       Okay, go.

Matt:     What were we talking about?  Yeah.  So, basically, we need more information to know why your Test is low.  So, if your LH is high and Test is low then your nuts aren’t responding to Luteinising Hormone.  Interestingly the treatment for that is Shilajit and that sort of stuff, which is in the ALPHA MARS.  If your Test is low, Luteinising Hormone and all that stuff is low, then, basically, your Brain doesn’t think you need anymore, so I would be looking at Stress levels, Cortisol, Sleep, your body’s not making it a priority, it’s doing something else, and that’s typically Stress related.  If you find your Test is low, Dihydrotestosterone is high, Estrogen is high, then your problem is your body is converting it, so your body is releasing Testosterone but you may have Toxic exposure, Inflammation that is causing it to convert through to other things, and none left as Testosterone.

Jeff:       So, if that’s true though, Matt, in that case of DHT was high, probably the side effects of that would be Anger, Acne, and hairloss

Matt:     Yeah, exactly.  Also, look at Sex Hormone Binding Globulin because when they say you’ve got low Test they often mean low Free Test.  So, you may find your Testosterone levels are fine, but your Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which they call SHBG, is too high and it’s bound it all up, meaning you’ve got no free Test, and that again is associated with Stress and all that.

Jeff:       So, 2% free, roughly, I think.  Again, I love that whole thing about the bulls where they’ve had ridiculously high levels of free Test, and that’s what builds Muscle.

Matt:     Or, is it grass?

Jeff:       I don’t know.  You try eating grass for a month and tell me how you go.

Matt:     So, we need to know a little bit more information of why your Test is low.  But, in saying that, when we tried to create products for the masses and we’re looking at the objective of increasing Testosterone levels, the product ALPHA MARS that we do make has the Shilajit and everything, which basically tricks the Brain into thinking you’ve got no Testosterone, so the Brain sends a message to your body saying, “Make more.”  So, the nuts and that sort of stuff…

Jeff:       And, it’s got Tongkat in there as well, which helps free up bound Test.

Matt:     Exactly.  So, Tongkat Ali drops off the Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, increases the free Test.  We also then have other components, the combination of the Shilajit with the Tongkat Ali directly enhances your sensitivity to Luteinising Hormone in the nuts—unless Luteinising Hormone is your girlfriend and you don’t really want that…

Jeff:       No, we’re not dating anymore.

Matt:     That’s cool.  So, basically, they will enhance your sensitivity to those signals from the Brain saying, “Make more Test,” and then, in the same product, we have stuff to block 5-Alphareductase, which converts Testosterone to Dihydro, and we block Aromatase which converts Testosterone to Estrogen.  So, if you look at something like ALPHA MARS, it’s designed to be able to give to someone when we don’t know the full story, and if you take two tablets twice a day your Test levels typically come up.  We find, typically, a 30% increase within—well, they say 30% every couple of weeks, but if you’re low then you’ll jump to the top really quickly.  So, a lot of people come in, their Test level is 2, and then the next thing you know it’s up to 15, 20, 30 sort of thing.

Jeff:       I’ve only got one question.

Matt:     Yeah?

Jeff:       What is a Sex Binding Goblin?

Matt:     A Sex Binding Goblin?  I don’t know, some little…

Jeff:       You mentioned it before.

Matt:     Did I?

Jeff:       That’s so getting cut.  Okay, so ALPHA MARS, Matt?

Matt:     HR is going to work hard today.

Jeff:       Yeah.

Matt:     With ALPHA MARS make sure you’re getting good quality Sleep because if you’re not getting good quality Sleep you can’t do it, so do CORT.

Jeff:       So, ALPHA MARS and CORT.

Matt:     And, go back to your doctor and make sure you’ve got Luteinising Hormone, Follicle Stimulating Hormone, Estrogen, Progesterone, Dihydrotestosterone, Prolactin, and I’d be curious about Cortisol, also look at DHEA levels, and that’s how you get a full Hormonal Profile.

Jeff:       It’s pretty full on, isn’t it?  So, Mr X, there’s a lot of testing you can go and further refine so that you can target these things a little bit better, and in the meantime, we’re going to send you an ALPHA MARS and a CORT RX just so you can target two third of the issues, Matt?

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       And, hopefully that starts bringing things right for you.


Alright Matt, this one is from Bridget:  “Hi boys, love listening to the podcasts, those big beautiful brains of yours working overtime.  Thank you for the time you spend giving back to us regular folk.

                I wrote earlier in the year about my Hashimoto’s and have been busy finding practitioners who can help me.  I’ve been putting things in place to heal my Gut, address Intolerances Imbalances, and asking lots and lots of questions regarding just moving forward.  I wanted to thank you so much for the CORT RX.  Between taking that and changing my Thyroid Hormone extract the two changes have changed my life, and I’m not exaggerating.  I started out taking two CORT before bed and one at lunch because I was getting a huge energy slump mid-afternoon, but I’ve had to change it to take it three times per day because I can’t sleep with it anymore, I guess my levels have changed.”

                That’s exactly the same issue that I have, I cannot take CORT at night, and I know it’s only a small percentage of the population, Matt, whereas Toni…

Matt:     You’ll be in a constant state of flux too.

Jeff:       Yeah right, so I might go back and try it again then and see what happens.

“Anyway, here is my question; somewhere in my research I came across something saying that with Hashimoto’s I shouldn’t drink coffee in the morning before I’ve eaten, something to do with supercharging my system as I’d run out of energy later on.  Managing Hashimoto means managing and levelling out my energy levels, minimising the peaks and troughs.  I wanted to ask Matt if he puts any weight to this, and if so, does this extend to Fasted Cardio because that also supercharges the system.  Also, I really want to try your AMP V but don’t want to start Fasted Cardio regularly if it won’t help me with my long-term cause, and if I did Fasted Cardio with AMP V would it help or hinder the Hashimoto’s?  Thanks always boys, love your work, Bridget.”

Matt:     How cool is that question, it’s very cool.  So, the theory with Caffeine and Hashimoto’s there is a theory that Adrenal Exhaustion precedes Autoimmunity, and Hashimoto’s is an Autoimmune condition, and the Cortisol spikes, as you’ve seen with CORT RX how important Cortisol is in influencing the way the Thyroid Gland works and that sort of stuff, and we also know it affects the Immune System.

However, the main reason why you wouldn’t drink coffee first thing in the morning for people with Hashimoto’s is because people with Hashimoto’s really struggle to stimulate the Stomach to make Digestive juices.  So, typically, they really struggle to get the Parasympathetic Nervous System to work, and the Stomach doesn’t make good Acid, so the Caffeine then, what it does, it basically shuts down your Digestion in the morning and creates a false surge of Energy with Adrenaline and Cortisol, so that’s how Caffeine works.  The problem with that is it shuts down your Digestion, which means you don’t process any of your actual Macro Nutrients, so you’re running on nervous energy, and that causes exhaustion.

Jeff:       Right.

Matt:     Now, if you were to throw AMP V in that Caffeine and then go do some exercise it wouldn’t be so bad because the AMP V is very powerful at—well, it’s got some Calories in it for starters, so you’re actually trickling that oil through telling the body to prime everything for Fat Burning, stripping the Fat out of your Liver first as soon as you start your exercise, then it’s going to start taking the Blood and Intramuscular Fat before it starts tapping into the Fat from your body.  So, doing AMP V before Fasted Cardio, with or without Caffeine, will be absolutely fine.  Then, the key is to come back, and before you eat sit down, don’t eat on the run, like sit down and have something warm with some bitterness to it.

Jeff:       Like a Miso soup or something?

Matt:     Yeah, or a lemon juice or something like that.

Jeff:       A vinaigrette?

Matt:     Yeah, Apple Cider Vinegar, so anything like that.  So, you could do 5mls of Apple Cider Vinegar in a bit of warm water, or you could throw in your…

Jeff:       Miso wouldn’t be bitter enough, would it, Matt?

Matt:     No, it would be fine, it’s right, it’s got a bitter component to it.

Jeff:       I love Miso soup.

Matt:     But, at the chemist they sell things like Swedish Bitters and all that sort of stuff.

Jeff:       Oh yeah, my dad used to use that.

Matt:     And, Gentian, Violet Gentian.  So, you can do those sort of things, and they hit a nerve on the tongue and it brings the Blood back into the Stomach to get your Digestion primed so you can eat.

Jeff:       Is that the Vagus Nerve?

Matt:     Yes.

Jeff:       I love that Nerve, it’s my favourite.

Matt:     It is.  Really?

Jeff:       Well, I don’t know, it just sounds like a fun place to go.

Matt:     You can poke it through your eye too.

Jeff:       Really?  Talking about Vegas, Matt…

Matt:     Woohoo.

Jeff:       A couple of weeks.

Matt:     Vegas in a couple of weeks.

Jeff:       For work purposes, only.

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       That’s a shame.

Matt:     Oh Mate.

Jeff:       So, anything else?

Matt:     No, that’ll do.

Jeff:       So, we’ll flick out an AMP V and see how you go with that.

Matt:     I think I’ve got a bottle of Gentian there, I’ll have a look.

Jeff:       No, you’re not giving anything out, Matt, from your private stash.

Okay, this one is from Timina:  I hope I’ve pronounced your name correctly, Timina.

Matt:     [overtalk] [01:06:59].

Jeff:       Look, if there’s someone’s name I am like a rhinoceros that will trample over it and sit on it.

Matt:     That’s why we all call you Joffre.  It’s not because you’re an arse.

Jeff:       Nobody calls me Joffre, only you do, and you know how much I don’t like it.

Matt:     It’s not so bad now after the next couple of villians.

Jeff:       Yeah, exactly.


Okay, so this one is from Timina:  “Love listening to you guys and have recently purchased CORT RX, AMP V, SUBCUT, and T432, and I’m yet to use them.  I bought them on impulse when I was just so sick of feeling flabby and bloated.  My biggest question is, what am I doing wrong?  I’m a 25-year-old female, mother of two…

Matt:     Twenty-nine.

Jeff:       Twenty-nine.  Did I say 29?

Matt:     You said 25, and something about some Sex Binding Goblin.

Jeff:       No.  “A 29-year-old female, mother of two little children.  I’m five foot eight, 59 kilos, I exercise regularly, and eat a very clean Diet but with no animal products other than Seafood.  I have eaten this way for 10 years, and for an equal amount of years I’ve been in this cycle of not having much of an appetite, only 1000 Calories a day to a Binge Eating for a month of 2 to 3000 Calories a day.  My exercise routine never changes, which is Cardio, Weights and Yoga five days a week.  I never Binge on junk food, it’s healthy food, but just ridiculous amounts like six slices of Oat Bread in a sitting or eating 10 dates.  I hate the way that it makes me feel and I can’t control it even though I’m conscious of it.  It makes me so flabby around the torso and hips and increases the Cellulite on my bum.  Basically, it makes me skinny fat.  I have never had any serious illness but was diagnosed with severe Iodine Deficiency in April 2016.  My levels were 10.  It was tested based upon a Corpus Luteum Cyst I had.  I have since been supplemented.  All of my Blood work was normal and my Insulin was normal.  The Iodine has helped with my Energy levels and cleared my mild Hormonal Acne.  I currently supplement with—a product brand, Matt, that I’m sure you know—B3, B5, Zinc, Magnesium, Vitamin C, and Vitamin D.  I would really like to hear any answers you may have for me, any advice on how to use your products, I’m so desperate to kick start this habit.  Thanks.  Bye for now, Mina.”

There you go, that’s easier.  So, Mina.

Matt:     It’s a tricky question, and a very common issue as well, but not everyone talks about it though.

So, as they say, “Everything in moderation including moderation.”  We are adaptive organisms and we’re also creatures of habit.  Doing the same thing every day expecting a different result is insanity.  So, all I’m saying is you have to shake stuff up.  So, sometimes when your body is stuck into such a routine it knows when you are going into a feast and famine phase, so you’ve really got screw things up.  So, if you cut your Calories down the reason why your appetite and all that slows down is because your Metabolism slows right down, and then when you’re not eating enough, basically, your Metabolism slows down, gets to a point where you’ve depleted all of your reserves of Glycogens and all that sort of stuff, so your body then says, “Right, we need to feast again to reload.”  So, it’s a lot about changing it all up.  And, when I say changing it all up, what is a good strategy to do, and I think I mentioned it earlier in the podcast, we calculate how much Fat you need and then just shake up the Carbs.  So, basically, just go through a phase where you’re doing Fasted Cardio, stay relatively low Carbohydrate all day, smack your Carbs in last thing at night, do that for a period of time.

The challenge is knowing how long to do it for, which is why we always recommend people work with coaches because they can measure and see when things plateau.  Because, you may adapt to that, and that change may stop freaking out your body and working, anywhere from three days to six weeks before you have to change, but you don’t know unless someone else is measuring skin folds or something and says, “Man, it’s not working for you,” or, “You’ve adapted to it now, you’ve plateaued out,” so, then what you do is you change, it’s all about chopping and changing.  So, you might include Intermittent Fasting, and you can do this, just the shits and giggles, like you can split your week up and say, “Right, I’m going to do Intermittent Fasting one day a week, and I’m going to then do Carbs in the morning for three days, and I’m going to do Carbs at night for three days, and then I’m going to have a cheat day.”  I don’t know how many days are in my week yet, did that add up?

Jeff:       Yeah.

Matt:     Cool, I fluked that.

Jeff:       Well done.

Matt:     So yeah, you might want to do something like that, but it’s all about mixing it up and changing it up because you’ve got yourself into a pattern.  Your body doesn’t care whether that pattern runs over a monthly cycle, three monthly cycle, because typically we run on seven year cycles, and it can incorporate patterns into all that sort of stuff, so you’ve just got to create change.

Jeff:       Yeah.  And, as for the Thyroid, Matt, it looks like Mina’s got that under control.

Matt:     That’s really interesting, Man, about that Iodine Deficiency causing the cysts on the Corpus Luteum.  The Corpus Luteum is within the Ovary, and a lot of people talk about Ovarian Cysts.  They get an ultrasound, but people don’t have the technology to know where on or in the Ovary that Cyst may be, and having an Iodine Deficiency it’s classic because an Iodine Deficiency changes Cells.  If you’re Deficient in Iodine you actually get more Estrogen Receptors per Cell, you become more sensitive to Estrogens and things like that as well, which is fascinating.

Jeff:       It’s interesting, Matt, because Mina was saying that she eats Seafood but she doesn’t eat red meat.  So, how would you…

Matt:     Yeah, and Iodine comes from Seafood, typically.  Mainly from sea vegetables as well, so Kelp and that sort of stuff.  But, it’s crazy to have an Iodine Deficiency when you have a high Seafood Diet.

Jeff:       Yeah, it is.

Matt:     But, you might need more of the sea vegetables.

Jeff:       Could it be with the processing of the Iodine that’s the problem?

Matt:     Yeah, it could be, it could actually be some weird Thyroid stuff going on where you’re depleting through it so fast.

Jeff:       Anyway, it looks like that side of it is managed, and who knows there might some things there, Matt, maybe.  I mean work with your Healthcare professional and make sure you’re covered, but if you’re happy and he’s happy, or she is happy, that’s great.  As for you Diet, I 100% agree, I would definitely go and find somebody to work with, if you can, whether it’s online or in person, because they can help you to shake it up and you’re accountable to that person.  If you’re a highly-motivated individual, you can probably manage it yourself.  But, I agree, I like working with somebody who’s going to give you objective measurements and also give you sound advice based on experience.  Again, if you’re in Australia, and you don’t have to be, Chris Thomas, Anne-Marie Lasserre, Rach White—who else, does Mick do coaching?

Matt:     Yeah, Mick Galley, Rach White, Anne – Marie.

Jeff:       These are just people that we know, so we’re not saying that you should only use them…

Matt:     They’re our mates.

Jeff:       We know them, they’re athletes, we sponsor them because they’re quality, they’ve got good knowledge and they share that.

Matt:     Oh, they’re great lab rats.

Jeff:       They are.  But, in terms of working with someone, I definitely agree with Matt, I would change up your Diet…

Matt:     You could throw in the VENUS too.  Oh, actually there’s another thing—I was just racking my Brain, it’s just bugging me where this Iodine Deficiency comes from.

Jeff:       You know what, you’ll think of it, and you’ll say, “Oh that’s it,” and if that’s true, Mina, we’ll  get them to email you if you think what it is, Matt.

Matt:     I was just thinking the consumption of Brassica but it’s the other way around, that doesn’t create an Iodine Deficiency.  If you have an Iodine Deficiency and you have too much raw Kale and that sort of stuff, it has these compounds called Goitrogens, and they can cause the Thyroid to get Goitre.  But, it’s the other way around, the Iodine gets absorbed in preference to those, so they only get absorbed if the Iodine is not there, not the other way around.

Jeff:       Groovy.

Matt:     It’s going to bug the hell out of me.

Jeff:       I know it will.  So, again Matt, there’s something else there as well too.  Anyway, Matt, that’s all we’ve got time for today, we have to go.  So, I’m going to throw out Mina a VENUS?

Matt:     Yeah.

Jeff:       Cool.

Matt:     What?

Jeff:       I don’t know.

Matt:     You just look at me weird.

Jeff:       Last word.

Matt:     I’ll put my clothes back on.

Jeff:       That was several.  Look, you don’t have to.

Matt:     Alright guys, well thanks for listening and we’ll be back next week.

Jeff:       Alright.  Hooroo.