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Episode 198 – Performance Series – Endurance

In this episode of the ATP Project – Performance Series – Endurance. Jeff, Matt, and Steve discuss how to increase performance for endurance events, adding in the 2% touches and paying closer attention to how your body responds to exertion. They cover off specific diets and nutrients as well as things you can do push past the threshold a little more.


Topic Index: 

00:01:09 – Start

00:02:34 – What is endurance?

00:04:28 – aerobic threshold

00:08:45 – Dropping acid/ph levels

00:09:36 – VO2 max

00:12:25 – Muscles and body shape

00:19:04 – Benefits of endurance running – telomeres

00:23:00 – The runners high

00:28:20 – Changed brain chemistry through exercise

00:30:30 – exercise and gut microbiome and akkermansia

00:33:54 – metformin

00:35:53 – Endurance athletes and firmicutes (increase calorie yield from


00:37:24 – polyphenols improve performance

00:38:16 – Yerba Mate

00:39:14 – Schisandra

00:39:55 – Tongkat Ali

00:40:28 – Viagra and altitude

00:40:58 – Beetroot

00:46:11 – Fat burning during endurance (low carb v keto)

00:54:50 – Salts and electrolytes

00:59:07 – backloading supplements

01:12:39 – iTunes Review

01:13:48 – FAQ-01

01:21:22 – FAQ-02


Steven Eddy:                      Okay, hello, my name is Steven Eddy, and today, on the ATP Podcast, we’re going to be talking about endurance activities. Now this is for activities that are going for about two hours or longer. So it’s the marathon runners, it’s the triathletes, it’s for those athletes out there. We’re going to talk about what specific diets and nutrients, and things we can do to improve our performance during these longer events. So sit back, enjoy, and thank you.

Jeff:                                       As always this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition, and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information in this podcast with your health care professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP project is about to start.

Speaker 3:                           Welcome to the ATP Project, delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best, or, somewhere in between, then sit back, relax, and open your mind as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.

Jeff:                                       Welcome to the ATP project, you’re with your host Matt, Steve and Jeff. Good day guys?

Steven Eddy:                      Good day how are ya?

Jeff:                                       Good, we’re going the extra mile on this podcast. Steve as we spoke about last time, we’re going to be talking about performance but specifically, we’re going to be talking about the endurance aspect of performance. Which is going to better benefit anybody that’s doing whether it be running, God knows why you’d want to do that.

Steven Eddy:                      Could be getting chased.

Jeff:                                       Could be. So we’re talking about …

Steven Eddy:                      It’s the only good reason.

Jeff:                                       Marathons. But we’re also going to be talking about sports as well obviously. It’s so funny, I was listening to some VO2 max information, and it had in there the different types of sports that really needed to improve in VO2 max. And it went ahead and had a look at football, aka soccer, and it said, well it’s not that important because you’re not running that hard. I felt like saying, “Well you’re a douche bag.” The funny thing is I used to play rugby when I was younger, and especially playing on the wing or fullback, you’re running a lot, right? Well even the forwards are, everyone’s running in rugby. But same playing football as well to playing on the wing or playing wing back, you’re running ridiculous amounts all the time. And I find it equally as hard as when I used to play football.

Jeff:                                       But we’re talking about basketball, tennis, exercise swimming, anything thing that you did.

Matt:                                     What is it? What’s the definition, how do know? Because I can make a walk to the shop and feel like an endurance event but someone like yourself might run a marathon in the same time, with the same amount of effort. So what’s the definition of endurance? Is it a particular time, is it to do with VO2 Max? Is it to do with HR, is it to do with intensity? What’s the-

Steven Eddy:                      It depends on what definition you use, but a lot of the studies use two hours plus. So that’s a long thing but that’s to do with the lactate build up and that sort of thing. However, you could say 100 minutes would be more accurate because you include a lot of those sporting events.

Jeff:                                       Or 90 minutes for a game of football then Steve. I say I just don’t qualify.

Steven Eddy:                      Don’t qualify.

Matt:                                     But then if you look at the Super Bowl, it might go for four or five hours but still not an endurance when they’re only running for a little bit just [inaudible 00:03:17].

Jeff:                                       Well, you know there’s a combination of them. Obviously, you’ve got your first twitch in your anerobic explosive that you need to run fast and quickly. But then in a game like soccer or football, I’m talking rugby league, rugby union, you’re constantly at a elevated heart rate for extended period of time. Some of that time you’re going to be walking, some time you’re going to be jogging. Sometimes you’re going to be running and sometimes you’re going to be flat out. The ability to maintain speed throughout the event and again, then we’ve got triathlons, we’ve got cycling, so there’s lots of different sports that endurance looks different to them. But the definition from my understanding is just being able to run or maintain a level of speed for a prolonged period of time.

Jeff:                                       An endurance athlete could be someone who’s, I know 1,500 meters is not considered to be endurance, but you’re starting to get there. They’re looking very different from what your sprinters are looking.

Steven Eddy:                      The definition comes from anerobic threshold, anerobic threshold for lactate build up. That’s where that two hour differentiation comes from. So it’s very arbitrary. And what it means is that, an aerobic threshold is an ability you’ve got to maintain lactate levels and I’ll explain what lactate is. It’s a build up of muscle acids basically at a level that actually comfortable for you to continue performing. So that’s your aerobic threshold. And if you go above that, then you’re going to build up lactic acid. If you stay that or under that, your lactate levels will be detoxified as quickly as you’ll be making it.

Matt:                                     So the lactate, we’re going to talk about aerobic for the other people that aren’t right up there. So aerobic we’re looking at oxygen.

Steven Eddy:                      Yes.

Matt:                                     When there’s oxygen coming through, you’re doing aerobic. So typically things that are lower intensity for longer durations, we can get that oxygen through?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah.

Matt:                                     But things that are high intensity or you’ve extended beyond sort of intensity thing, then you’re basically looking at that becoming anerobic, where no oxygen is getting in to oxidize fuel to support that things and you have to use what was stored or inefficient energy production creates lactic acid or lactates as a waste product.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah.

Matt:                                     And then it accumulates.

Steven Eddy:                      You burn a lot less fats when you-

Matt:                                     So this is where the definition it gets a bit sneaky and tricky because, and what we’re going to do today now is just define what we’re specifically talking about. Because in an event that might go for a couple of hours, that may involve periods of sprinting and periods of relaxing, well you’re not doing so much of an endurance exercise. You’re doing medium or high intensity interval training. So with the definition of an endurance that we’re looking at is things that hit a certain VO2 max or hover around that aerobic threshold for an extended period of time?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah and then you’ve got things like half time or quarter time and you don’t physically do any exercise during that time, that rest, so therefore the liver detoxifies like you guessed.

Matt:                                     And even if you look at fighting and that sort of stuff, the interesting thing to look at three minute bout and have a 30 second break or something. It’s about that 10 to 30 seconds as an after actually regenerates some of that ATP as well, we start to regenerate that tissue at that rest, and that’s something you don’t get in an endurance athlete. That’s the whole concept of a triathlon or a marathon, or one of those extended durations. So you pace yourself. You hit a certain pace and try to extend that energy without doing sections of sprints and stops.

Jeff:                                       But at the same time though, I know myself. And this is for the boxers for example, if you try and fight 10 rounds, when you try and do even a couple rounds the average person, they’re going to be absolutely gassed after the first minute. You get a person who’s relatively sedentary to run flat out 100 meters, they’re going to collapse at the end of that. So their anerobic fitness is terrible, but their aerobic fitness is also terrible as well too. But it’s a combination between Steve, and I hope that we can cover this, that this podcast is not just about your marathon athletes or your long distance cyclists. But they also will incorporate aspects that people who are playing sports can use to improve their performance.

Steven Eddy:                      Very much so.

Matt:                                     But the problem is, the topic is so … each one of these different campaigns requires such a specific protocol to be at your best for it. There is probably some information that will be applicable to all different sports. So everyone will get something out of this today, but to do it justice, I mean the endurance athletes, the runners, the cyclists, the triathletes, cross country, I’m still a bit confused and that sort of stuff. Because there’ll be levels of intensity changing in that, but those sort of things we’re going to dedicate our podcast to that today because there is a lot of information. We’re going to talk about electrolytes, we’re going to talk about fuel, specific herbs that can be used, polyphenols, all these bits and pieces. Micro bio probiotics, so we’re going to talk about that specific for maintaining a level of intensity over a long period of time.

Matt:                                     And then what we’re going to do, in future episodes we’re going to go through it and get it right. So now for like team sports rugby, and soccer and what sort of stuff we’ll hit hard. Then we’ll do a body building performance one as well, as well as a sprint, high intensity performance one.

Matt:                                     Each one of these things requires a specific protocol. To do it justice, we’ll do it that way.

Steven Eddy:                      Excellent, it’s good. That’s the general definition. There are things that will conc you out because anyone who tries to run a marathon, you will start to hit walls that will slow you down. And there’s things like dropping pH, or acid levels in the muscles will slow you down. Your [inaudible 00:08:50] dioxins will drop, that will slow you down. There’s lots of things that will eventually catch up, it doesn’t matter how fit you are, your lactate levels will increase too much so you can’t go on. We’re just trying to look at ways of preventing or prolonging that. Not getting rid of it, we can’t. It will eventually hit the wall, but we’re looking at ways, apart from obvious training, which is great. To delay the inevitable fatigue that’ll kick in. That’s what today is pretty much about I’d say.

Matt:                                     So we’re talking that go for a couple of hours like one and a half hours to two hours sort of thing?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, it depends how you want to define that. That’s what I’d define it as.

Matt:                                     So intensity, let’s talk intensity. So I mean I’m thinking the objective measurements for intensity. Because if you’ve got subjective for intensity, it can vary significantly between people. But this VO2 max Steve, can you explain it to us? What is it, how do we measure it? How do I know my VO2 max is when I’m puffing or not [inaudible 00:09:43]?

Steven Eddy:                      So it’s basically how much oxygen you’re consuming. The volume of oxygen VO2, and oxygen is O2. So it’s how much of that you can consume. The more of that you can consume, the better off you’ll be. So the higher VO2 max you’ll have, the better you are. The average person is around 30 to 40. If you’re a female 30, male 40. That drops dramatically if you’re overweight. The level for someone whose got too much body fat, will drop because they’ll be using energy up for their fat stores.

Jeff:                                       And that’s interesting Steve, we’re looking myself to improve VO2 max, one of the first things that is said and one of the first things I focused on, is actually cutting body fat. Not only are you hauling around extra weight that’s not actually contributing anything whatsoever, you’re putting more strain. For every kilo of weight that you have, every time you run, it puts a sheer force between three to five kilos through your joints, through your knees and through your ankles. If you are running and if you’re looking to get fit, dropping weight is one of the best things that you can do on many levels. But especially for VO2 max.

Steven Eddy:                      Absolutely.

Matt:                                     So how do you measure that? I mean, I’m sitting here thinking, “Jeez I wonder what my VO2 max is right now?” But I how would I measure it? When I see these people with these machines on their face, so how can people relate that to themselves without going to a place like a Australian Shooter Sport for that process?

Steven Eddy:                      The other way to do it, the simple way, is to measure your maximal heart rate when you exercise at high intensity and then measure it against your resting heart rate and the difference between there is related to your VO2 max.

Jeff:                                       So smart watches, I use a Garmin watch for example, and that will estimate. It’s not as accurate as obviously-

Matt:                                     It’ll estimate VO2. It’ll tell you VO2-

Jeff:                                       Yeah. It can tell me my VO2 max.

Matt:                                     It tells your heart rate, your VO2.

Jeff:                                       Yeah, the Garmin watch I love and it’s fantastic. You can use it with anything, even for people doing weights or people who are doing runs or anything. You should always measure everything that you can do so that you can always then aim to beat that the next time. It’s funny, it’s almost like goal setting. Goal setting automatically comes in, whether it’s lifting weights and want to lift slightly more or slightly extra reps or what have you. With VO2 max, I can now keep an eye on my VO2 max to see where it is. It’s improved one point since I’ve started training. It’s gone from 45 to 46, which is not great. It’s better than average but it’s certainly not where I want to be.

Steven Eddy:                      Yes and the only way to do it is to do those longs hours of training. This is the thing that will get that number up.

Matt:                                     So what’s the goal for endurance? When we say endurance, we’re saying it’s related to V02 max. So what’s the goal?

Steven Eddy:                      Post 60 is what you’re after.

Matt:                                     So when you said you get for V02 max?

Jeff:                                       Yeah. And it is slightly different for men and women.

Steven Eddy:                      Yes. Women are 50 because they got more fat in all things they just have.

Matt:                                     On across the population done analysis. How does the fat interfere VO2 max? Are we talking free fatty acids in the blood stream?

Steven Eddy:                      Stored fat.

Matt:                                     So stored fat because it’s a blood reservoir.

Steven Eddy:                      It’s a blood reservoir. It takes away-

Matt:                                     It requires blood and because it’s active during that sort of time in regards to lipolysis, it has an increase blood supply during endurance [crosstalk 00:12:46] and exercise.

Steven Eddy:                      So it just takes away-

Matt:                                     Even subcutaneous does, because of the actual physical shaking and bouncing. It actually increases the blood flow to the fat in the periphery. And it basically you’d imagine the body saying get rid of it.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah.

Jeff:                                       What’s interesting with that and if you watch and I know again, I’m sort of coming back into medium sort of lens sport, but if you look at boxers, especially the really big muscly ones and they come in and you go, “Oh this guy is going to smash this guy because he’s so much bigger and stronger.” But you see very quickly that that extra muscle weight also can work against them as far as endurance is concerned. Again, you look at the long distance runners they’re built like whippets, there’s not much on them. So too much muscle can also work against you Steve.

Steven Eddy:                      It works against you for endurance events definitely because there’s not much strength involved in endurance events unless you’re doing a weird type of event that requires you to run like … There’s a study here on army people. And they require more muscle because they got to carry and do that and run for 24 hours. It’s a study on Beta-alanine showing Beta-alanine improves the 24 hour endurance. But if you look at the greatest distance athletes, we mentioned Dean Kanarese, he’s one of the greatest and we’ll get arguments about that. He’s won the Badwater in 2004, he’s run 350 miles non stop, no sleep. So that’s endurance. That’s 560 kilometers.

Matt:                                     What was the story behind that? Was he in trouble or? Get somewhere-

Steven Eddy:                      He dropped the kids off in the morning and had his family follow him. He’s an extremist, he’s run across America, he’s done 50 marathons in 50 different states in 50 days.

Matt:                                     You’re thinking of Forrest Gump.

Jeff:                                       No, well kind of. He was inspired by [crosstalk 00:14:24].

Matt:                                     Eddy Izzard, that comedian. Eddy Izzard did a marathon everyday for like a month.

Steven Eddy:                      But this guy is all about pushing to the limit and he’s a little bit extreme in that way. But it’s good to show, and you know what his VO2 max is? 63.

Jeff:                                       Wow. I thought it would have been way higher than that.

Steven Eddy:                      No but he’s won the Badwater marathon which is a classic endurance event.

Matt:                                     Sounds like a sprint event to the toilet. It’s the Badwater, let’s go.

Jeff:                                       What is the upper limit of VO2 max in terms of the really elite athletes?

Steven Eddy:                      They can go plus 70.

Jeff:                                       Yeah.

Steven Eddy:                      Which is just extraordinary. And these will be the great Kenyan distance runners and those sorts of things and the [inaudible 00:15:06], the guys from the higher lands of Mexico. Where they run for 100 miles a day. These sort of guys are just insane.

Jeff:                                       Did you look at the Japanese running monks?

Steven Eddy:                      No I didn’t look at the Japanese running monks, but there’s all these people-

Jeff:                                       They’ve taken a vow of running, I haven’t researched this, this is someone told me about it. I believe they’ve taken a vow of running. They run between 50 to 80 miles a day. Every day.

Steven Eddy:                      Where do you sign up man?

Jeff:                                       That sounds like death.

Matt:                                     I would get a tattoo of scissors on my hand. I can’t run with scissors, sorry.

Steven Eddy:                      I wondered where you were going with that.

Matt:                                     So seriously, there’s phases of my life where I used to walk around carrying scissors so people wouldn’t make me run.

Steven Eddy:                      From the front row forward, deep.

Matt:                                     Remember there was a day, and talking about those, that’s why I want to talk more specifically about sports later. Because when I played rugby league for example, there’s a lot more sprinting involved in that as a front row in rugby league as there was as a forward in rugby union. Because you spend the whole time jogging around three quarters. Everything’s different. And then when I played soccer football, I was center back or goalkeeper typically, so not a lot of running there. Depending on, there’s so much to do with this. That’s why I was trying to get some definitions of like, so if I set up a VO2 or particular heart rate, now when you say exertion, you said, heart rate at maximum exertion. We’re just talking about just a burn. You just can’t push. You’re talking about lactic acid burns and that sort of stuff?

Steven Eddy:                      No when you’re running and your heart rate can’t go any higher.

Matt:                                     Okay, cool. So it’s not to do with your perceived exhaustion or anything, it’s just the way your heart rate flattens out.

Jeff:                                       And Steve there is a mathematical depending on your age, they’ve got a norms haven’t they? Where they say that you should be.

Steven Eddy:                      Maximal heart rate, 220 minus your age.

Jeff:                                       Yep.

Steven Eddy:                      So I’m 50, we’ll round it off now. So my maximal heart rate should be 170.

Jeff:                                       You know what? I bet you do higher than that consistently, Steve. Because your biological age though is probably significantly better than your chronological age.

Steven Eddy:                      Well I’m 22 according to 198 so, don’t try it at home without doing it. But when I did an Echo test, a stress test because my family are riddled with heart disease and my mother had a episode, a heart attack a few years ago. And I went, “Oh, I better get myself properly tested.” So I had a stress Echo. And had my heart rate up to 198 and the cardiologist office and they couldn’t believe it. Because I was on an inclined treadmill at 30 degrees running at the highest speed, 20 kilometers, now the treadmill would go. Because normally you’ve got to remember, when they do Echo stress, it’s usually old people that are walking but because you’re a relatively fit person, I was about 46 person at the time so I was young. Running that speed and that’s how I know I got to 198.

Matt:                                     That’s the truth.

Steven Eddy:                      And my heart’s fine.

Matt:                                     Oh, lucky after that.

Jeff:                                       You didn’t drop dead at the end of the treadmill.

Matt:                                     Because that’s his maximum.

Jeff:                                       You know what Steve, your heart’s not very good. Sorry about that.

Matt:                                     It’s funny his heart rate at rest is going back to zero.

Jeff:                                       That’s phenomenal. You’re going to finally tune off like this fellow. Zero.

Matt:                                     That’s his pain threshold.

Steven Eddy:                      It’s quite funny because I had no coronary score so I’ve got no coronary atherosclerosis score at all which is completely rare and then the cardiologist says, “You’re the fittest person I’ve seen.” And then he said, “What do you eat?” And I told them about about the eggs for breakfast and he said, “You shouldn’t eat that. That’s not good.” And I’m saying, “Well is it or not? Look at the results.” And this is what worries me when the cardiologist wouldn’t see results, they saw someone who is really fit according to them and they said, what I’m doing is wrong.

Jeff:                                       Do you know what I would have said Steve? I would have gone, “It’s like these bastards that live to 110 years old, smoking a pack a day and drinking whisky.”

Matt:                                     Genetics.

Jeff:                                       They would have gone, “You’re an anomaly.”

Steven Eddy:                      But my genetics are bags and my family have got heart disease. So it’s not that heart disease runs in the family, no one runs in the family. You know that saying.

Jeff:                                       It’s like noses run in my family.

Matt:                                     Infertility runs in mine.

Steven Eddy:                      Do you want to know quick benefits why you should do these stupid long runs?

Matt:                                     Yes.

Steven Eddy:                      Just quickly, it improves your telomeres, better than resistant strands.

Matt:                                     That’s interesting.

Jeff:                                       This is very controversial science Steve. I’m fascinated by telomeres in terms of all the longevity people speak about and proving telomere or preserving telomeres. Matt, I know you sort of wrinkle your nose a little bit.

Matt:                                     No, no, no. The thing is telomeres are real. There’s only so many and when you run out, you’re dead. That’s the cell’s life cycle over. It’s just that it’s only one. There’s other forms of apoptosis, there’s other forms of things that regulate cell cycle and aging length as well as the telomeres, but the other thing is, a lot of the products out there that are designed to enhance or lengthen or prolong the telomeres, there’s not much data on anything actually showing that it does that. There’s lots of data on telomeres, lots of data that exists, lots of data that it can regulate cell cycle and life span and things like that. But as far as the treatments that go to modify the telomeres, or how that modification of the telomeres makes people live longer, hasn’t yet really been in the [crosstalk 00:20:17].

Steven Eddy:                      And that’s why I jumped on this paper that was published in the European heart journal, published this year. And it compared endurance training, interval training and resistance training. It concluded by saying, endurance training and interval training but not resistance training, increased telemoreous activity. Which is the enzyme that grows your telomeres and your leukocytes in the white blood cells.

Matt:                                     Well it makes sense really, the whole concept of resistance training is faster turn over cells. So the resistance training is about breaking and damaging cells and asking the body to make more. The whole telomere theory is there’s only so many cells you can make in your lifetime. So the faster you break things down then the faster you build. So the telomere theory fits in really nicely with that very low calorie, very slow metabolism, intermittent fasting extend your life span as a skinny weak person, starving for an extra decade or something.

Jeff:                                       As we say, quality versus quantity.

Matt:                                     And quality, my perception of anti aging is a little bit different to others. My perception of anti aging is to feel young until you die. As opposed to living longer as an old person.

Steven Eddy:                      But it is interesting because I mean again, in combination with the other types of exercise because we know the benefits of white bearing especially on bones, especially on your muscle tissue which is so beneficial. It’s one of those things where you could use in combination, which is interesting again in contrast to the weight only. Which I do understand and appreciate and these guys are building great physiques. But I just hop back to what Luke Lehman was saying in terms of the left ventricle, I think it was-

Matt:                                     It’s still cardiovascular fitness. The reason why cardio exercise is called cardio, so if it goes again and again and spend three quarters an hour, an hour on the treadmill to resemble this sort of activity, it’s for cardiovascular fitness there. A by product of that is going to be more free fatty acids liberated and more fatty acids oxidation and more depletion of fuels and that sort of stuff. But the goal of that is for cardiovascular fitness, that’s why they call it cardio.

Jeff:                                       And again I think we’ve demonstrated as well too with your sprinters and your body builders and those that don’t do any form of cardio or very little. You can build an unbelievably good looking physique, shredded to the bone and maintain more muscle mass by avoiding cardio because we know that it breaks down muscle tissue. However, in terms of the heart and again harking back to that interview that we did with Luke Lehman, is the left ventricle I think that doesn’t get any benefit from the weight training, which is important for heart health.

Steven Eddy:                      That ventricle part that pumps the blood all around the body. And also it’s very good for your brain too isn’t it Matt? You want to talk about it.

Matt:                                     Oh man, the mood stuff. Because that’s the one thing, because it’s addictive apparently.

Jeff:                                       The runners high, they talk about it.

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Jeff:                                       I’ve never experienced it. I’ve experienced the runner’s low.

Matt:                                     Yeah, yeah. I’ve managed to get home without paying for a cab, so screw them.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, the runners lie.

Matt:                                     I had that high when I got back. It took me almost two days.

Jeff:                                       But no, some people absolutely and they live for it and it becomes a drug and addictive.

Matt:                                     And the cool thing about it is, actually it’s not just a high like, oh man I’ve survived something that I thought was killing me. Otherwise why the hell have I been running all this time? So what we’re looking at, lets have a look at the brain chemistry behind it. So the Tryptophan pathway. So basically we’re looking at certain papers, certain micro bios and a lot of different causes for the Tryptophan can go down the wrong pathway converted into this thing called quinolinic acid that causes anxiety, panic, restlessness and irritability instead of going down a different pathway where it can make quinolinic acid, which basically switches off that pathway.

Matt:                                     And that quinolinic acid pathway is involved in Krebs cycle energy production. So when people push themselves and they push their Krebs cycle to do different types of exercises, and they improve their cardiovascular fitness, they improve their Mitochondrial biogenesis and their energy production pathways. They’re more likely to have the Tryptophan go down the correct pathway and away from the anxiety causing one. So they get a feeling of feeling good way without it, they’re actually left with quinolinic acid that made them feel restless, jumpy, irritated, can’t sleep, anxious, panic, I need to move. So if you go running, it actually changes the pathways and takes away the anxiety chemical. What’s really interesting as well as a lot of our Tryptophan is also, well 80% of it’s made in the gut and then it migrates to the brain. And in the migration, it’s attached to albumen in the blood stream. And what’s interesting is when we start burning and liberating fat from storage, the free fatty acids it knocks the Tryptophan off from being bound. That makes the Tryptophan free. So that means the Tryptophan can then get into the brain where it’s converted to serotonin.

Matt:                                     So a combination of things by the simple process of exercise improves your energy production pathway through the Krebs cycle. So you’re capable of burning carbs with oxygen and that sort of stuff. So good oxidation of carbs through that training up that cycle but then as a by product for that as well, you’re freeing up the bound Tryptophan making it available so you can get a serotonin release instead of being left with a nerve irritant. So that simple process of not going for a run and being left with that restlessness and irritability, that feeling’s that you need to move. Move and it actually changes the pathway, which is really kind of cool.

Matt:                                     And then sorry just in regards to the endorphins, one of the other things that we’re looking about there, a lot of that’s regulated by phenylalanine. And phenylalanine is a really cool compound in our brain that raises mood and increases our pain threshold. But phenylalanine is also broken down and used to make tyrosine so that tyrosine can increase noradrenaline production which is anxiety and worry. What happens again, the process of exercise and the endurance tells the body you need more of these endorphins. It preserves the phenylalanine which means that you’ve got les tyrosine for noradrenaline and adrenaline production after the exercise. So what’s really cool about that is you get a combination of serotonin and endorphins that you didn’t have. What you had before you exercised, you would have had noradrenaline, which gives anxiety, worry, fear of the unknown. Quinolinic acid that gives you a bit of restlessness and irritability. So if you’re getting those feelings, you can go for a run and it converts it into the chemicals that say all right, now pain, raise mood, block pain, make you feel nice and content. You’ve been running for so bloody long, and you’ve stopped you better have escaped.

Jeff:                                       Is the best exercise running then for that first part, the tryptophan and the [crosstalk 00:26:52]. Or is it any form of high intensity exercise?

Matt:                                     No anything that releases free fatty acids. Anything lipolysis. So the process, the fat burning itself, like you could be doing fasted cardio or high resistance faster, I could then deplete through the morning and then your body spends all day pumping out the free fatty acids into your blood stream to replenish it if you’re on a relatively low carb. That’s why low carb makes you feel fresh in the mind.

Steven Eddy:                      The low carb diet is great antidepressant and what you said actually brilliant. That is a great way to treat that tryptophan and still the quinolinic acid because you get these OAT Test, organic acid test and you’ve got this high quinolinic acid and people are going, “What’s wrong with me? I’m feeling XYZ, I can’t sleep. I’m anxious all the time.” And it’s all, “Go for a run.”

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Steven Eddy:                      And that’s a great treatment.

Matt:                                     That coronaric acid is often the way they treat it. So you know certain acids or supplements that increase coronaric acid, through negative feedback or stop that tryptophan going down that pathway or you can do that same process through exercise.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, it’s a great way to start the day. Get out there and do a bit of exercise and get your heart rate up. Because you’ll burn fat and yeah sure, you’ll feel better. So it’s good for your brain as well as your body.[crosstalk 00:28:01]

Matt:                                     And circulation. You can look at peripheral circulation and all this stuff about dementia and all sort of stuff, and Alzheimer’s. A lot of that circulatory disorders to the brain, so it’s no difference to cardiovascular. And this is why they say sitting is the new smoking. You just got to get moving. Like it’s that movement of blood’s so important.

Steven Eddy:                      But also exercising increases brain drive neurotrophic factor. And the great thing about what Matt talked about with phenylalanine is that it’s an enkephalin inhibitor. So it inhibits the breakdown of the enkephalin which I think that makes you feel good in the brain. So it’s a really good way to feel good. And that’s why people talk about, “I feel good because I exercised today.” And that’s the goal of life, is to feel good. Yeah you’re going to live longer, you got telomeres whatever, but you feel better. So it’s living longer healthier. Quality and quantity of life.

Matt:                                     I mentioned just then when I was talking about most people a lot of times we’ve talked about the tryptophan still because most of the tryptophan is made, oh sorry, serotonin is made in the gut from tryptophan. Those defective pathways were always linked back to the gut. Not necessarily on a Krebs cycle level but there’s heaps of data talking about it with the microbiome. And so what’s really cool is well, when you have a look at this, this is what I love about nature and the human body. But when you have a look at the synergies here, what we’ve just said is that you change brain chemistry through exercise. Well there’s heaps of research showing that you can also change your microbiomes through exercise.

Matt:                                     So because is the [crosstalk 00:29:21] and importantly, you can actually change your microbiome to improve your exercise performance.

Jeff:                                       And this is the question again, we’ve mentioned this three times now so can we get into a little bit about that. Because I do want to talk about exercising specifically for your microbiome and the impact that it has. So Steve I know that you’ve done a bit or research on that.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, yeah.

Jeff:                                       And, in relation to that or if it’s a separate lactic acid and the improvements that it has for the body and how you improve your lactic acid threshold. And you know that carbon mucus that you get in the back of your throat when you’ve gone for a crazy long run or when you’ve really pushed yourself, you remember that Matt? Probably playing football and that as well too, you get that?

Matt:                                     Being chased and that. Yeah, yeah I remember. I spent most of my time gassed out as we say.

Jeff:                                       Yeah right. Again, you had a lot of muscle mass on you as well, you’re a bigger guy.

Matt:                                     Yeah and we used to call it, sport induced asthma. But it was just respiratory acidosis from my body trying to get the acid out.

Steven Eddy:                      So the body tries to balance the pH and the body acid in the body by breathing. And you breathe out CO2. When CO2 is dissolved in water, you form carboxylic acid. So you sort of blow that off and that’s why you’re puffed after exercise. And also, we talk about the gut microbiome. When you exercise at a great rate, you increase a bug in your gut called acamezia.

Jeff:                                       Love this one.

Steven Eddy:                      Acamezia is such a cool gut bug that is even drags out just to increase out metformin. It’s out there just to boost that up so you can boost metabolism, beat diabetes and all that sort of stuff.

Jeff:                                       So could athletes use metformin to improve their performance?

Steven Eddy:                      They do.

Jeff:                                       There’s going to be some trials. [crosstalk 00:30:56][crosstalk 00:30:56]

Matt:                                     Or the natural version of it, berberine. Berberine is the herbal one.

Jeff:                                       Berberine tastes like terrible.

Matt:                                     Bile. It tastes like living bare bile.

Steven Eddy:                      You asked me to try some and I said, “Not berberine.” And then you did.

Jeff:                                       I’m going to get some capsules then and start dosing with it.

Matt:                                     That’s a myth. I’ll share it with you.

Jeff:                                       Yeah Steve, I’ll be beating you for it.

Steven Eddy:                      No you will be.

Matt:                                     But a lot of most of the mod biotics in combination with extra carbon dioxide in your mouth. So the way to get carbon dioxide into your mucosa, Steve I was saying you get that by basically acid. Our lungs, respiratory acidosis can eliminate some of that by putting extra carbon into our mucus and that’s what these bugs feed on instead of sugars and that sort of stuff. I love it.

Matt:                                     The other way to increase carbon in your mucus is through low carb or Keto style diets. As soon as you get Keto breathe or as soon as you’re burning fat. I remember as a bait going around a couple of years ago where there was a terrible paper published saying we’re all idiots for saying fats converted to energy and gives us heat. Because it’s actually converted to carbon dioxide and we breathe it out. So I had to explain that E = mc2, to explain that there’s mass and then there’s energy.

Matt:                                     So the energy can’t be created nor destroyed, merely transferred. So the energy then goes into heat energy and that sort of stuff. But the mass which is carbon, hydrogen, oxygen is eliminated as water and air. Or in our bowels as carbon dioxide and water as well. So it’s an interesting thing. Anytime you’re burning fat or anytime you’re liberating more fat for burning, but you got to have that breakdown. You’ve got to have that carbon release, you got to have the ash left over from burning of fat. That’s pretty much it.

Matt:                                     What it is if you’re to look outside of the body, it would just be like the ash left over has got to go somewhere and that’s what these bugs feed on in your mucus when it gets into the mucus. So it’s actually, we should look to see if there’s any link between our commands here and things like respiratory acidosis or sports induced asthma.

Steven Eddy:                      There is, earlier data done in the 80s where they overdose people on metformin and the side effect in metformin. A lot of the older doctors like Dr Doug will tell you is, “Oh metformin, that causes lactic acidosis.?

Matt:                                     Yeah, right.

Steven Eddy:                      That’s the listed side effect of metformin.

Matt:                                     I remember and it’s so funny because you could smell it. That’s the weirdest thing, these people get these funny weird acid smell about them.

Jeff:                                       What’s the bad side effect from taking metformin?

Steven Eddy:                      You can get too low of blood sugar levels and you can get too much weight loss. It depends on the individual but they used to call it exercise in a bottle. And a doctor I spoke to about two years ago I won’t mention his name, friend of the family sort of thing, he couldn’t exercise and I told him, “Why don’t you take some metformin because it’s exercise in a bottle?” He lost 14 kilos on it.

Jeff:                                       Hang on a minute. I can just imagine all these people going, “Oh, okay.”

Steven Eddy:                      No it’s a well known weight loss.

Matt:                                     But Steve, that all sounds like good side effects at the moment, but I mean, are there any bad ones?

Steven Eddy:                      In 2015, they started a study in America seeing the effects of metformin on longevity on healthy individuals which is one of the very first of its kind. So the earlier results had a fantastic, the side effects are minimal, people feel better on it and of course they perform better on it and they’re looking at it as the longevity study. So it’s going to be going along forever. But people on metformin who are diabetics we know live longer than non diabetics.

Jeff:                                       is it a chemical drug? Is it made in a lab?

Matt:                                     Yeah. So what it does it stops a couple of mechanism of actions. One is it stops your liver from being able to release sugar when you hit a low blood sugar, for a healthy person. So in a diabetic, they got high blood sugar and their liver can’t measure that so it just keeps pumping out more. So the way it works in a diabetic is it stops the liver from releasing any more sugar into the blood stream. If you’re diabetic that’s good because you can help to drop your fasting blood sugar in particular and other blood sugars throughout the day. If you’re a non diabetic and you get a low blood sugar, there is glycogen reserves that it will not allow you to release. So it can get bad hypo attacks. That’s the theory though, is if the sugar is being held back and you go hypo, hypoglycemic, low blood sugar, the body would liberate more fat and that’s why you get the fat burning. Because you need some fuel when you’re in that deficit.

Matt:                                     The natural products that work along the same lines is berberine mainly and gymnema. Gymnema Sylvestre-

Jeff:                                       Sylvestre?

Matt:                                     Yeah, yeah.

Jeff:                                       That also deadens the tongue to sweet foods.

Matt:                                     Yeah, that’s its handy trick if you’ve got sugar cravings. You get the liquid version, you put on your tongue and you don’t taste sweet things. Also chocolate has a cocoa and lollies taste like chemical like it’s weird.

Jeff:                                       The funny thing is that using the Gutrite and I did the 10 day challenge after coming out after Christmas, I can’t, I just have no desire for sweet foods whatsoever.

Matt:                                     This links in, well done Master Segue.

Steven Eddy:                      Well done Segway, that’s a good segue.

Matt:                                     Because what Steve found actually, I’m just going to steal it off you quickly now because I spotted it over. But with endurance athletes they need to liberate more fuel out of what they’re eating. One way to do that is to increase firmicutes in your gut. So one of the consequences of endurance athletes or endurance events, is to increase the amount of lactobacillus ecolis, strep firmicutes within your gut. Because firmicutes can increase your calorie yield from carbs by about 20%. So they can increase how many calories you get from your food because the signals all coming through that you’re starving and you’re running, you must be bloody hungry. And because there is still no food, you’re still running. So what they’re finding is that the firmicutes can increase. So you can imagine for some people that get into a bit of footie season or get into some running or get into some stuff and then stop.

Matt:                                     Because what happens, a very similar that we talk about rebound weight gain with body builders and post comp, and other people that have done like 12 week campaigns, if you get into the habit during this running, you can actually build up these firmicutes. You’re increasing your yield, then when you stop you can actually put on weight. That’s why a lot of old athletes that just keep doing the same thing can just blow right up. Using a something like a Gutrite or just those typical polyphenols that are found in those sort of products, you can actually stop the overgrowth of the firmicutes. That will be a really sneaky way of doing it because that’s a big problem. If someone building up firmicutes and not managing them, they just keep growing and growing and growing.

Jeff:                                       Steve do you want to add in something there?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah absolutely. Speaking about firmicutes, speaking about polyphenols, polyphenols are also another thing you can take to improve your performance.

Jeff:                                       And it’s really funny, I’ll put a little footnote in here Steve and come back to you but Matt and I were talking about improving performance and Matt I don’t know if I heard you right, but you said “Jeff when you go and train, yeah use your arm before you go and train.” Which typically I do, it really help with liposis and burning fat and what have you. Also opens up the airways so I can obviously train at high capacity. But you also said, try taking a teaspoon of Gutrite before you go as well too. And why is that?

Matt:                                     I just wanted you to shit yourself.

Jeff:                                       I was going to say.

Matt:                                     I can’t believe you’d listen to that.

Jeff:                                       It doesn’t work for that way.

Steven Eddy:                      There’s two mechanisms all right that polyphenols help you that’s not shitting yourself.

Matt:                                     No I can kind of explain. So yerba mate-

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, sometimes yerba mate on the go.

Matt:                                     Stop interrupting, I’m trying to build a story. So yerba mate, schisandra are some of the best well studied ones. So yerba mate is not in the Gutrite, we got that in the T432 plus. Yerba mate is really bloody interesting because of its traditional history. It’s actually used specifically for that in traditional medicine. It improves endurance, it improves longevity, it makes you work better, longer at a certain maximum thing. Controls satiety, controls hunger, keeps the fat burning happen and enhances fatty acid oxidation.

Matt:                                     Tongkat Ali is an interesting one. Not many people would consider Tongkat Ali as an endurance running event. We might use Tongkat Ali for an endurance bedroom event but Tongkat Ali is brilliant. It turns you into a sexual tyrannosaurus, but it also lowers cortisol, increases DHEA and there’s a lot of really good data on it, just genuinely improving performance and making you go for longer.

Steven Eddy:                      Wow! You want to talk about the performance enhancing abilities of Viagra?

Matt:                                     No.

Steven Eddy:                      You don’t want to talk about that?

Matt:                                     Doesn’t, does it?

Steven Eddy:                      Only if you’re at altitude.

Matt:                                     What?

Steven Eddy:                      Only if you’re at an altitude. If you’re doing events at altitude, like about 3,000 meters it boosts your performance dramatically.

Matt:                                     Oh, okay.

Jeff:                                       Because Viagra works on nitric oxide, correct?

Steven Eddy:                      It does but then-

Jeff:                                       How does that improve for-

Jeff:                                       Because typically I’ve always thought if you get too much nitric oxide, especially before an endurance event, that it could actually work against you.

Matt:                                     Yeah, you get too much pump and you get muscle engorgement. Bloody triathletes big problem, they get off their bike and they get so much pump in the legs they can’t run.

Jeff:                                       Yeah. Interesting though the difference with beetroot because that has a-

Matt:                                     But that’s why we’re looking at microbiome controls. Beetroot’s state dependent. Beetroot doesn’t just cause a vasodilation like an arginine would. So what beetroot does is it actually has nitrite. And nitrite sticks in your mucus, okay? Is it nitrite or nitrate?

Steven Eddy:                      Nitrite, in O3.

Matt:                                     And then what happens is the bugs, convert it and put it into our blood stream when your body needs it. But it sits in your spit, in your mucus all the beetroot compounds sit in the spit in your mucus. It’s not until the signals go from your periphery to these bugs that aren’t even new and then they will determine that we’re going to release it at this particular rate. And that’s freaky.

Jeff:                                       It is pretty cool.

Matt:                                     How does Viagra, how does that fit in with that note because it’s a more of phosphodiesterase inhibitor, isn’t it?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah. They’re two types, so it’s very easy nitron certain parts of the body. So it works in certain parts of the heart. That was able to reach only four if it’s a heart medication, blood pressure. So it does have some effects in certain tissues in the body. You know which ones, I’m not going to talk about here.

Matt:                                     I’m just thinking back to the start of the podcast when you said VO2 max proportionate and then we talked about muscles being a blood reservoir. So is it the fact that Viagra is swelling up other things in the blood that’s not actually useful for running?

Jeff:                                       It would certainly get in the way.

Steven Eddy:                      It helps you after the event when you want to pick up the chicks afterwards.

Matt:                                     It might help you turn the corners, it’d be good for those events that go round and round in circles if you just aim it one way.

Jeff:                                       Or if you’ve got Peyronie’s disease.

Matt:                                     Oh yeah Peyronie people run around in corners anyway.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah it’s a side effect of Viagra.

Jeff:                                       Is it really?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah.

Matt:                                     I’m never touching Viagra.

Jeff:                                       Me neither.

Steven Eddy:                      It makes your eyesight poor too. Because the [crosstalk 00:41:33].

Jeff:                                       Yeah, I think my mum used to tell me wives tales about that.

Steven Eddy:                      Actually it does cause color blindness. This is one of the vision problems.

Matt:                                     I’m really color blind.

Steven Eddy:                      I know.

Jeff:                                       So if you take more maybe it’ll fix it.

Matt:                                     Maybe.

Jeff:                                       Or you can just see in black and white.

Steven Eddy:                      So it kinda does make you go blind. But the polyphenols also worked with-

Steven Eddy:                      Oh I wanted to ask you about the beetroot things, what happens if you took some, remember our podcast on-

Matt:                                     The antibacterial mouthwash?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah. Chlorhexidine.

Matt:                                     It stops it working.

Steven Eddy:                      How does it do that?

Matt:                                     And that’s how they discovered that it was actually the microbiome that does it. They realized that if you take away the microbiome, it does nothing.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah.

Matt:                                     So for those people out there smashing your beetroot juice, don’t brush your teeth.

Steven Eddy:                      No.

Matt:                                     Don’t use any microbial mouthwash, you shouldn’t do that anyway.

Steven Eddy:                      No. The other things about the polyphenols is it helps with athlete recovery. This study was done on over a gram of polyphenols. Three days prior to the exercise will enhance recovery from exercise induced muscle damage.

Jeff:                                       Wow.

Matt:                                     What polyphenols? What are they talking about?

Steven Eddy:                      The fruit derived ones. So the polyphenols just flows through that now, they’re benzene rings with hydroxyl groups hanging off them.

Matt:                                     So they’re the they color and smell.

Steven Eddy:                      Color and smell. And so they’re everywhere, there’s loads of these sorts of things, they’re all different types. So that’s what they are and they work really well in that mechanism. So they’re really good for nitrous oxides.

Matt:                                     So if you think about the phenols being the color and the smell of the fresh produce, you know how when you go round the garden and that sort of stuff, like if you go to a tomato tree and the smell that’s coming off that thing compared to what you get. Even if you seriously when you buy your tomatoes and then the truss ones are still on the vines, the smells you’re getting from those things significantly better. 80% the phenols going two weeks after harvest.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah it’s incredible.

Matt:                                     It’s really hard … So we left with the ones that are color but the volatile ones that are associated with fragrance and that sort of stuff, they’re all gone. So this is why it’s so important to have fresh fruit and vegetables and that sort of stuff, and within the season. Because the polyphenols are one of the main things we’re trying to get out of them and they disappear if you’re not eating fresh.

Steven Eddy:                      Amazing. So I guess it comes back to what sort of diet we can eat to enhance our endurance. A lot of data on this, and there is a bigger review done in nutrients, it’s called state of the art thing. And they’re basically saying optimal pre-range nutrition strategy should aim to increase fat utilization during exercise and the consumption of fat rich foods may be considered during the race as well as carbohydrates, electrolytes and fruits. So you’ve got to encourage fat burning. Because fat burning of course stops-

Matt:                                     No one would be doing that. I mean when the guys are running and the guys are on the side and they’re holding their little cups, like the earth race.

Steven Eddy:                      Yes that’s right. You’re going to talk about [crosstalk 00:44:09]

Matt:                                     Charity race to save the environment, like a marathon to save the environment. How long’s the race? 40 bloody K’s. 40 K’s of rubbish. Just cups plastic, sachets, dragged at, smash it down, everyone watching, yeah, save the earth. Drop their sign, go home.

Matt:                                     You look up photos of that and it’s like, “Oh man you just ruined the environment with that race.” I know is a running race.

Jeff:                                       But it is interesting. So obviously utilizing fat that’s got twice the amount of calories, so it’s going to have a muscle spearing effect you would imagine.

Steven Eddy:                      Yes that too and the great thing about it, it doesn’t produce the acids the carbohydrate breakdown, it doesn’t produce lactic acid and fat breakdown doesn’t produce lactic acid.

Matt:                                     So at what stage? You know when you start and you hit your aerobic threshold, you start your race, we’re talking about getting to that aerobic. What timeframes and at what heart rates in that are we burning fat during an endurance race?

Steven Eddy:                      All the time except what you’re trying to encourage is more fat burning. So if you do a ketogenic diet for training for an endurance event, your fat enzymes will up regulate in response to that. So you will be better performed and better prepared for that race if you train on a ketogenic diet. It’s interesting for one.

Matt:                                     Is that still the best for your performance though Steve?

Steven Eddy:                      Yes it is.

Matt:                                     No.

Steven Eddy:                      There’s basically it is because they did a trial and a high fat versus a high carbohydrate improved performance. While the other trials were neutral. So there is improvements in higher fat diets.

Matt:                                     So what were they doing then? Were you talking a high fat, are you talking leading up to it?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, leading up to it.

Matt:                                     The training with a low carb?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah.

Matt:                                     To encourage mitochondrial biogenesis?

Steven Eddy:                      Correct.

Matt:                                     Which means basically if you take carbs out which is the easy simple fuel, and at the same time you’re depriving them of oxygen through endurance and that sort of stuff, you’ll be forcing your body to make more mitochondria, so you can get more fat burning happening.

Steven Eddy:                      Correct. 70% fat levels are what they tested.

Matt:                                     But do you then carb load before the event?

Steven Eddy:                      Not before the event. You fat load before the event, that gives you that better things according to this paper and then during the race, this is the weird thing, you can consume carbohydrates then.

Matt:                                     And then that’s how you get maximal performance?

Steven Eddy:                      Correct.

Matt:                                     What about glycogen? What about glycogen replenishment? I mean do we have to load our glycogen before the event? Because if I’ve been going on high fat, low carb, are we talking low carb?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, low carb.

Matt:                                     So they’ve been training, they’ve been doing their running, throughout the day they’re eating relatively low carb and higher fat, their glycogen stores must be fully depleted.

Steven Eddy:                      Well they’re not fully depleted but they’re fairly depleted because you do this before the event. But what this does is called glycogen sparing. And remember glycogen is a pretty short [crosstalk 00:46:49].

Jeff:                                       It’s not very much in the muscles [crosstalk 00:46:52].

Matt:                                     Holds a lot of water too. So it does contribute to a fair bit in heaviness and bloating.

Steven Eddy:                      It only lasts minutes compared to an endurance race which is two plus hours according to this. So you’re talking about hours of endurance not two minutes. If you’re doing a sprint or a three four hundred meter, just slam down all the carbs you want beforehand.

Jeff:                                       See I want this conversation the put into the next one where we do on 60 to 90 minute sporting events.

Steven Eddy:                      By then it will be a different thing. But the endurance ones are –

Matt:                                     So for endurance, we can go relatively low carb or even keto? Could you be ketosis?

Steven Eddy:                      It is keto. So that’s the trial they used yeah.

Matt:                                     So these guys are in ketosis, measuring urinary ketones or what the salivary ketones and that sort of stuff. They get the mitochondrial biogenesis just quickly can I throw in that, if you want to enhance mitochondrial biogenesis throw shilajit into the mix. Shilajit is freaky good for increasing mitochondrial biogenesis and it actually does. That’s where it’s got its whole reputation for improving and fixing altitude sickness and then fixing all those endurance and that sort of stuff. So you’re saying if we make the body struggle a little bit in regards to its energy production from the simple sugars and oxygen, then it’ll force it to make more cells. More energy warehouses per cell, making it more available to fatty acid oxidation as a source of energy while you’re competing at a certain heart rate, certain intensity.

Matt:                                     If you go beyond that intensity into sprinting, you’re no longer doing that are you?

Steven Eddy:                      You’re not. This is only for endurance. There’s a nice graph here, which we’ll show up later, which works out the free fatty acid burning of these different diets that they tested. And the ketogenic diet and I know it’s not very good for camera but is vastly higher in this graph all the way through the competition up to 105 minutes. I’ll show you now, you can see the fat burning way more.

Matt:                                     So the seeping of the carbs during the event then, that’s not going into any muscle really. That’s going to be your nerves, your brain and your immune cells and those sort of things are going to be using that blood oxygen. So that’s more just to keep you sane, isn’t it?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, absolutely. Keep you sane but also does get burned for energy. The conclusion of this study was yes, it’s better performance but it also improved their body composition. So if you’re an athlete who runs on the weekends distance whatever to improve your body composition, this diet would also be good for that. So it gives you body performance as well lipids.

Jeff:                                       And I can imagine in your opinion as well too Steve-o if you threw the amp in which is going to regulate you’re going to get and you’re getting increased oxygenation into the lungs.

Matt:                                     Yeah, massive effects on the VO2 max.

Steven Eddy:                      Exactly. And it says here in the paper, fat loading may also slow down the rate of carbohydrate utilization and enhance endurance performance in long distance events lasting from two to five hours.

Matt:                                     And enhance performance.

Jeff:                                       It’s pretty good.

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Steven Eddy:                      The fuel that’s preferred for distance like that is fat and of course when I did the marathon, guess what I ate in breakfast? I had a swig of olive oil.

Matt:                                     Yeah right.

Steven Eddy:                      And that’s what you do before you do the run. I’m the only idiot doing that probably at the event, but you can finish it quite easily. And I didn’t slow down through it all. You pass people at the end because they’re… and during the event I have carbohydrates.

Matt:                                     So if we’re loading up with shilajit regularly, and a gram of shilajit a day is the, that’s what you need, that’s four of the [inaudible 00:50:13].

Jeff:                                       You didn’t finish off on the Tongkat Ali did you? Tongkat Ali is also important?

Matt:                                     Oh yeah. Tongkat Ali is very good performance, it’s just one of the herbs very well studied to show enhanced endurance. It’s got a long history of it as well. So schisandra, yerba mate, tongkat ali, shilajit are amazing herbs to load up on. And those things you don’t need to take before the event. They’re things that are better if you take them regularly. You can get in change your system that way.

Matt:                                     Hey remember the chia story? Remember the Mexican that won the Nike event? So Nike had this massive ultra marathon when they sponsored most of the runners and then everyone had Nike shoes and Nike stuff everywhere. Some Mexican farmer won it with a pair of recycled car tires or something, and told everyone he had a pocket full of chia seeds. But then chia went crazy, but I’ll tell you what’s really interesting in the follow up from that. Is they discovered that chia itself doesn’t have any benefit. But supplementing chia within an ultra marathon doesn’t help but when they went back and looked at it, that these people used a staple grain, something like chia regularly when other people were using a high carb. And if you go back and look at chia, it’s about 40% fiber, 30% fat, 30% protein. There’s no real absorbable carbs. So you’re actually seeing a person that was then munching down on slow release fats throughout a marathon as opposed to the everyone else running power snacking down their sponsored supplement drink.

Steven Eddy:                      It’s very interesting there is another advantage also it decreases post exercise muscle damage. So if you’re doing this, then you’ll have lower muscle damage and you can rebound and do another long run.

Matt:                                     Is that related to the lactates and that as well?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, lactates.

Matt:                                     So another one would be Beta-alanine. With beta-alanine, you see it in a lot of pre work outs but that’s not really for an endurance athlete how you would do it. For an endurance athlete you’d be taking about three grams of beta-alanine every day. And the reason why you do that is because it increases a thing in your muscles called carnosine. And muscle carnosine is the best intra muscular acidity buffer and antioxidant. Carnosine is 50% beta-alanine, 50% histidine as part of the molecule. But there is plenty of histidine around, beta-alanine is the rate limiting ingredient.

Matt:                                     So if you go to three grams space in your smoothie, take three grams of beta-alanine because it works twice as effective as three grams of carnosine.

Steven Eddy:                      Absolutely.

Matt:                                     So three grams of beta-alanine makes the equivalent of six grams worth of carnosine.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah exactly and if you take this throughout the time that’s why the army used it in their 24 hour stimulated military operation. And beta-alanine improves that dramatically [crosstalk 00:52:45].

Matt:                                     And their getting loaded up with, and a lot of that early research on beta-alanine was also done on the race horses. Again, they’re really handy for some of that stuff.

Steven Eddy:                      The one thing about the ketogenic diet is that it’s worse if you’re doing high intensity work. So that’s what they found and that’s because of the lower LA concentrations which is-

Matt:                                     LA?

Steven Eddy:                      Lactate dehydrogenase is the enzyme that breaks down lactic acid.

Matt:                                     Right.

Steven Eddy:                      And because you don’t have as much there because you don’t have as much lactic acid around and so you want lactic acid when you’re doing sprints. You want to feel the burn when you’re doing and then you stop. That’s the idea of it. So when we do another one of these on sprint you’ll hear me contradict myself and say, “Oh.”

Matt:                                     It’ll be bloody different.

Jeff:                                       And that’s it. And again we’re talking about and people are getting primed probably for this for this on the limb, for a sporting event. And times when they’re exercising from 40 minutes to as I said an hour and a half which is typically what most people are exercising during those sorts of sports.

Matt:                                     The other thing that you’ll probably contradict ourselves on is salt and everything. So when we’re talking to body builders, salt can be a bit of a dirty word. But with the electrolytes I know magnesium and potassium are going to be so important again as intramuscular acidity buffers. Because what happens is as you build up this acid in the muscles, the magnesium potassium levels are depleted because they’re used to buffer the acid. And then you run out of off switches for your nerves and you can start to cramp up and that sort of stuff. So making sure that plenty of magnesium potassium but don’t think sodium and calcium are dirty words in the sense because we’re going to need the salt.

Steven Eddy:                      No you need salt. Hypernatremia is one of the most commonly things that marathon runners get, they’re put in hospital for. And they go on a drip.

Matt:                                     So the way to know is you’re going to start cramping up but they also measure changes in body weight huh? Remember we had Kara Saunders come through, we did a podcast and we were talking about over her crossfit events. So I know they’re combinations of high intensity stuff but when you do it for a whole bloody weekend it can be exhausting. And she was saying normally she’d lose big percentages of body weight. But when we gave our protocol using the infrared and the beta-alanines and everything and our electrolytes, she didn’t lose any weight. So after the whole event, maintain that body weight makes sure there was none of that dehydration and hypernatremia.

Steven Eddy:                      That means low salt in the blood. Low sodium, natrem is Latin for salt.

Matt:                                     It’s hard to know how much salt each person needs. That tongue is a little good indicator sometimes because –

Jeff:                                       You can taste it.

Matt:                                     Yeah, and you’ll know when you have an electrolyte drink when you’re not dehydrated how salty the bloody thing tastes compared to when you’re actually exhausted. It almost tastes sweet. If you’re low in salt, the salt gets absorbed so quickly that it doesn’t sit on the tongue and taste salty but then as your levels build up, the salt absorption slows down so it stays on your tongue and taste saltier. So if you can’t even taste the salt in your food, there’s a fair chance your body is absorbing it so fast you might need a little bit more.

Steven Eddy:                      And hopefully this stops the questions as why is there salt or sodium citrate in our infrared? That’s because that’s great for the citric acid and the salt.

Matt:                                     Then some people still it might not be enough. So you still might need to add more. Like it’s really hard for us to work out salt levels across the board because we all eat salt as part of our diet. So I can’t say there’s this much salt typically hidden within the food. Because we’re not talking about the salt that’s hidden in the food, we’re talking about the stuff that people add. So trying to work out the right levels of salt for someone and also trying to make a product that’s suitable for an endurance athlete here but also the body builders love it because of the pump and the vasodilation from it.

Steven Eddy:                      It’s great and the studies recommend 10 to 25 millimole per liter which is about an isotonic concentration so about 1%. But that’s very very as you said, 10 to 25 is a huge range because they found them all beneficial because it depended on how much salt they had for dinner the night before. So it’s very interesting but I love the fact that they tested it and it did benefit the high fat diet benefited these athletes for two to five hours.

Steven Eddy:                      So we’ve got to get beyond the fact of most events don’t go for two to five hours unless you do a stupid marathon like I’ve done or you do something like that. They’re mostly less or intermittent if you’re a sports player. So this is really for those people who really want to excel and do those endurance events. The Ironman, in this case the cross bike riding across the country and all those sorts of events. And there are a lot of people out there that like doing that sort of stuff. That’s the events we’re talking about. We can buffer against lactic acid, you can stop muscle breakdown and improve their performance with the fat because of the calories.

Matt:                                     With the endurance, a lot of the theme is that you got to just load up on all this sort of stuff because it’s such a long event, you can’t expect to be able to supplement everything an hour before. And then have it maintain in your bloodstream over a long period of time and you got to be really conscious of gastric upset and gastric emptying and that sort of stuff. What you can do is a lot of strategizing your body with your training. And this is the challenge sometimes in treating in maximizing performance. People are training long distance running daily in many cases. And they build up to these things. So as you’re loading them, they’re depleting. So you need to do a little bit more and you need to strategize. A lot of back loading, you need to allot more stuff at night and things like that. And back loading so it’s back in the tissues for the next morning or whatever to go again. And then it’s all about strategizing building up to an event. So you got to load back up and do these things to make sure you’re peaked for that event.

Matt:                                     But what I will be doing definitely different now is I used to do a lot of glycogen reload. When we used to do, because we used to do all the low carb to force people into getting more mitochondria and to get fitter and struggle more by taking the carbs out that makes them tougher. But then the theory was to put the carbs back in and then, “Let’s go.” But this is interesting what you’re saying that there is no real benefit in doing a carb load for two or three days before.

Steven Eddy:                      It used to be in the 90s but the problem was is that it pumps up insulin, which is the hormone that stops you burning fat. So when it comes to the endurance event, not the short, the endurance events.

Matt:                                     But then those sugars will then get converted and stored as fatty acids in the fat tissue to be released later as free fatty acids.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah they do and you get the glycogen build up and you get the insulin. So you don’t want to have too many carbs before the event. During the event when you’re exercising insulin doesn’t come up because you can burn sugar without insulin.

Matt:                                     There might be a few people just quickly here in this word insulin and carbohydrate and relating it back to this paper that was published recently. It’s created a fair bit of debate within the sports industry. Because they did a paper, big analysis showing describing or confirming, I think the name of the title was, ‘The mechanism behind the carbohydrate insulin link with the obesity’. And so what everyone is saying, is like this is rubbish. There’s a lot of different things but a lot of it’s confusion. A lot of people out there saying, “See another insulin locks up fat into fat cells”, and they’re saying it… I was having a good chat to Brooke about it this morning because she does a lot of work with social media. And there’s a lot of statements and memes and things like that that gets thrown out, very strong opinions. And she was asking, a little bit like the background behind it. And I tried to explain it simply and what we were saying and just for the people out there, that the carbohydrate insulin model of obesity goes a bit like this.

Matt:                                     If you’re fat, if you’ve got lots of fat in your bloodstream, that fat tries to burn in through the mitochondria. If the mitochondria is not effectively burning fat, the enzyme that does that is carnitine palmitoyltransferase. So if the mitochondria is not capable of burning that fat, the fat accumulates inside the cells. That fat causes insulin resistance. So then what happens, when someone needs sugars, the carbohydrates the insulin comes up. That insulin doesn’t work to put that sugar into the cell because the cell’s already full of fat that it can’t burn. And that’s part of the insulin resistance. Fat tissue does not get resistant to insulin, so when that sugar’s high in the blood stream because it can’t go anywhere, that sugar then goes over to the fat tissue.

Matt:                                     The fat tissue then converts it through to fat and then holds it there and releases it back as free fatty acids later that clog up the mitochondria. The whole concept is too much fat in your blood stream creates insulin resistance and the insulin resistance ends up covering your sugar into fat because you can’t burn it. Because the fat’s already clogged it up. So the whole theory of this is that it’s not that insulin locks up fat into fat cells, it’s that the insulin resistance in your muscle will not allow that sugar to be burned in the muscle. Therefore the fat takes on that sugar and stores it for later. So it’s a very complex, this is the bit that really I reckon screws with a lot of people’s heads. That’s a cool theory.

Matt:                                     Lots of fat in your blood stream creates insulin resistance so you can’t burn sugar. Very simple huh? So how would cutting out sugar from your diet and eating more fats fix that process? Wouldn’t eating more fats then put more fat into your bloodstream and make the problem worse? And that’s where I think people get stuck but it’s like no, once you take the insulin out because it’s the insulin that blocks the enzyme that’s burning the fat so once that insulin exposure is reduced, people are capable of burning the fat that’s accumulated into the tissue and that will free up this [inaudible 01:02:03]. And then the fat drops, the blood fat actually drops when you go onto a higher fat diet because you’re actually getting a chance to burn it. And then it can break that vicious cycle.

Matt:                                     Did I clear up things up a little bit or did I make things messier?

Steven Eddy:                      I think you did. Emphasize the point we can go back to 1984 where they first tested it. Yeah, sorry, got my tank full.

Steven Eddy:                      Where Robert Atkins who was popular, he was the high fat guy, and he was a cardiologist. And it was a terrible looking diet, they were giving people high fat diets. Eat all the fat you want, no limitations, don’t matter what type of fats et cetera, eat all the bad ones. Some scientists I think they were at Harvard said, “We’ve got to test these out and see what the problem’s in and put an end to this sort of stuff. And unfortunately what they found was the people on the Atkins Diet had vastly lower fats in their blood called triglycerides, than people having high carbohydrate diet. And then in 1991 the paper was released talking about gluconeogenesis and all these other things that fats can be … carbohydrates can be turned into fats. So you ate more fats, lower carbohydrates, your fats in your blood actually drop.

Steven Eddy:                      And that was an amazing revelation that triglycerides are very much related to carbohydrates and triglycerides are fats in your blood.

Matt:                                     The other big point too that can correct a little bit of confusion is people can have self-fulfilling prophecies. So for example, I could be a body builder with a strong theory, I could also have 10% body fat. So, my responses to insulin would be very different to someone that’s at 40% body fat with low muscle mass. So, what might happen in my case might not happen in the next case. So everything I think is case by case.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah exactly. I did a one hour and 20 minute run this morning and if I’d have done it every day, it wouldn’t really matter what I-

Jeff:                                       I’m really glad that you brought that up.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah. I can feel it in my feet.

Jeff:                                       Yeah, because you can’t run every day like that. I mean Steve, you read the Four Hour Body as well? By

Steven Eddy:                      Not Michael, I’ve forgotten his name. But yeah.

Jeff:                                       Yeah, Tim Ferris. Anyway, and that was cool because he was also talking about different methodologies of training saying that a lot of the … I highly recommend it if you are into long distance running, go and have a look at that. He actually works with a coach to improve his steps per minute, which improves his over all running rate.

Steven Eddy:                      Shuffle.

Jeff:                                       But he said, and it’s kinda funny and quite controversial as far as I understood, that the best runners aren’t out there running 20, 30 kilometers in a session. Typically they’re running relatively shorter distances and able to recover faster to get back in and to actually improve their fitness. And I think, Steve, you’ve got a better memory than I, but they were running maximum of 10K’s at any one time.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, mine was only 12.

Jeff:                                       I’m talking about marathon runners and people that are running 40 plus K’s. They would only run up to 10K’s and they might even have one session of 10K and a couple of sessions of 5K’s.

Steven Eddy:                      That was very interesting, but there are a lot of runners, marathon runners that do a lot of K’s every week too. So it comes down to the person. It depends on what you wanted a lot. But you’ve gotta remember the professional marathon runners don’t work. These guys are just professional runners.

Jeff:                                       And they’re measuring things. The rest of us are out there trying to guess. We’ve got flash watches and stuff, but you don’t have that constant measurement going. For you, this is what’s perfect for you.

Steven Eddy:                      And if you’re a Dean Kunintz, you can run a marathon and be fine the next day.

Matt:                                     THat’s nuts.

Steven Eddy:                      That’s sort of –

Matt:                                     How could someone like an Eddie Izzard? How would someone like an Eddie Izzard run a marathon every day for a period of time?

Steven Eddy:                      Depends on how long it took him to do it.

Matt:                                     I can’t remember.

Steven Eddy:                      Like if it was six hours, it’s just sort of walk around. I mean, people who do marathons do them like …

Matt:                                     We need to get Eddie Izzard on the podcast and ask him.

Jeff:                                       Oh that’d be awesome.

Matt:                                     Wouldn’t that be cool?

Jeff:                                       He’s the best.

Steven Eddy:                      One of my mates, Guy Andrews did seven marathons is seven days, and he’s a great runner, but he’s an athlete as well.

Jeff:                                       He’s an Ironman, right?

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, Ironman. So he’s pretty impressive. He’s two years younger than me now, and he’s still kicking ass. He’s in New Zealand at the moment running across New Zealand.

Jeff:                                       Good luck to him.

Matt:                                     And you know, the only reason I’m a naturopath and doing this, there’s one chemistry teacher that I had in high school that saved me from getting, probably a boiler maker’s apprenticeship because everyone else was trying to kick me out of school. But this bugger come through with his little hunch and his lisp, and telling me all this, giving me all these challenges and that. And he was this long distance runner, and he was such an inspiring awesome guy. And he used to just putt along, do this awesome running, and that sort of stuff.

Matt:                                     So his daughter, Benita Willis. So Benita Willis, then Benita Johnson, Australia’s best ever female marathon runner.

Jeff:                                       Yeah, right.

Matt:                                     So it’s really kinda cool because unfortunately Mr. Wilth, he passed away quite a while ago, but his kids have been so amazing and following though, but it’s kind of, it’s funny how these little moments in your life can change you. It sucks that you don’t get a chance go “Hey, I’d like to do this.” Because I never got a chance to go back and say anything.

Steven Eddy:                      It’s true.

Matt:                                     The funny thing is some of the other teachers that were trying to kick me out of school and get me expelled and that sort of stuff ended up coming back to see me when I was a naturopath, asking for advise and it’s just like-

Steven Eddy:                      Now what town was this lady?

Matt:                                     Sakai.

Steven Eddy:                      Oh yeah.

Matt:                                     Yeah, Benita Johnson her name is now. She got married, but she’s brilliant. Even to this day, the last time I saw her probably on TV there, she was working as a coach for all these new up and coming marathon runners, and she was going into the races even though she’s broken and stuff. She pushes herself really hard as a pacer and then just pulls out of the race.

Matt:                                     But it’s kinda cool how you do these full circles. Everybody, a long time later and you go back and go, “Well, I forgot about that.”

Jeff:                                       So, guys we’re gonna come back with a part two and a part three by the sounds of it, it’s a performance. So next time we’re gonna talk about more of your football sports, and sort of those sorts of every day sports.

Matt:                                     I mean so we’ve got endurance and that, and we’ve got resistance training down the other end. What do we call these middle bits? Middle part?

Steven Eddy:                      I don’t know, high intensity? Yeah.

Matt:                                     Right.

Steven Eddy:                      Interval.

Matt:                                     Yeah. The greatest teacher.

Jeff:                                       Again if you look at it, it’s really funny because I was training on Tuesday night, first training session of the season. And a lot of us had been running laps, which I find is boring.

Matt:                                     Oh yeah.

Jeff:                                       Anyway, so we finished the session after two hours and, which was like 7.3K’s, which isn’t a huge amount, but man it was awesome. Ball skills, you’re on it, you’re running, burned 1200 calories. But, the speed was really interesting. To see it up and down, which mimics what happens in a game. Sometimes you’re walking, you’re sprinting, that’s what I want to talk about. People that need a good measure of endurance, because by the end of the 80, 90 minutes, that’s when your fitness comes into play, even before that.

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Jeff:                                       But at the same time, you need to be able to maximize your sprint and your speed. So you do need both. It’s a combination. It’s not like you’re a 100 meter sprinter. Where you have one event that goes for 10 seconds and that’s it, you’re done. A small amount of aerobic, but a hell of a lot of anaerobic. But the sports that are between. So we’re gonna talk the crossover athletes.

Matt:                                     And it’s weird, because someone like myself, when we did training, I was always the worst at training, we’d do these road running stuff and I was just coming in like all this long distance fitness stuff, I was so bad at. But then on the game, I did all right. I was very competitive within a game. I could push hard, I could get through lots of work.

Matt:                                     So something that would be cool to talk about is why the hell some different body types, say just get straight into some, hit some aerobic threshold that just flattens them with just slow and steady, but they can just sprint all … they can do on and off sprinting all day.

Steven Eddy:                      A lot of it comes down I think to the muscle fiber.

Jeff:                                       Fast and slow twitch, yeah.

Matt:                                     That’s what we’ll talk about because that’s gonna be tricky for the next. And I don’t mean to sound like a wanker here, but like a lot of long distance endurance people have a similar kind of body type. They’re leaner, fitter type. But when you have a look at a rugby team, you’re gonna have all different types. So we’re gonna have to try to cover that within that podcast. And talk about the different types of people that would be within one team. And how to supplement different. And we’re doing a lot of work now with the Brisbane Broncos, and that sort of stuff, so within that we then split the players up into different types of players, different types of activity, whether they’re a three quarter guy the whole way through, whether they’re just regular, where they need to do sprints, or they just need it to be their brain.

Matt:                                     So it’s very … it’s gonna be a really interesting podcast. I’m really looking forward to it. And I can relate a bit more to it.

Jeff:                                       Yeah, well me too. The next one’s gonna be the one that most excites me because long distance running to me is death. Really. I hate it. I don’t even like going for a 5K run. I find that boring.

Matt:                                     Well, listening to this, I’m really thinking for me personally, I’m gonna go and learn to fight. Because I’m never gonna outrun anyone.

Steven Eddy:                      No, no. It’s tough because when Dale, he’s one of the staff here, was talking about doing a marathon, I was trying to talk her out of it. Because I’ve done it before, it’s stupid, don’t do it. And she’s, “No, no, no. Do it, do it.” And I said, “DOn’t do it. You’re mad, you’re an idiot.” And I’ve done four of the bloody things. So I can’t talk.

Jeff:                                       Well, what’s that saying? Whatever makes you happy, whatever floats your boat. You tell someone who just gets that runner’s high, there’s no way they’re gonna stop it. So, to each their own. So anyway, we’re there to help, obviously the different people. And next one is probably for me.

Jeff:                                       So guys, we’re gonna get in some FAQ’s, again thank you for some feedback on the iTunes review. Hi guys, love what you do. I’m third year nutrition and diet tech student and the information provided is an excellent example of nutrition and naturopathic expertise. With great execution to the general public. As a nutrition student, your brain and gut hormones for fat loss was the most relevant podcast as it explains the physiology behind fat loss battles that a lot of people experience. The more I listen, the more I realize how small gaps I have, even with my university experience so far. Particularly the constituents of some of the foods and their affects on appetite, phase one detox down regulation, and the toxins involved. Thanks, and that’s from Kelly.

Jeff:                                       Anyway, thanks. Love it, guys. Appreciate the thumbs up and the whatever you do on iTunes. I think it’s you write it out of styles and stuff like that, but the comments are fantastic. It helps. What are you looking at?

Matt:                                     No, I’m trying to think what they do on iTunes.

Jeff:                                       I don’t have a clue.

Matt:                                     They have a thumb up?

Jeff:                                       No, no, they do stars.

Matt:                                     Five star review, that’s all you need to know.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, don’t worry about the rest of it.

Jeff:                                       But anyway, thanks guys. All right, Matt, Fred has got a questions for you guys. I was wondering if you could help me with something. My wife has been really struggling to lose her weight after giving birth to our last daughter seven months ago. Love you guys and your products, so I thought I’d give it a go. So here it comes. My wife gave birth to our second child seven months ago. Both the births have been emergency cesarean on both occasions and she had low milk supply. The first time she was put on a gut drug called-

Steven Eddy:                      Motilium, which is an anti-dopamine drug. And when you reduce dopamine, you increase prolactin, and that brings on milk.

Jeff:                                       There you go, which is meant to improve milk supply, but has also had some bad side effects. First time she really struggled to lose weight as long as she was breastfeeding despite eating really well and exercising a lot, she didn’t lose any body weight until she stopped breastfeeding at about six months. At this stage, she started losing the weight and got back to normal. After the second child, however, she had the same thing. She’s barely lost any weight since giving birth. The difference this time is that she didn’t take Motilium.

Steven Eddy:                      Motilium, yep.

Jeff:                                       And also she stopped breastfeeding two months ago and she still hasn’t lost any weight. She exercises five times a week and following a really good diet. She did the Gutrite diet for a month, and now she’s doing only 1200 calories per day. And all good, whole foods, but she’s still not losing weight. So the last two months, she’s been taking the four pillars, Quad Rx, Alpha Venus, and also Amp V. With the Quad, she can’t take it at night, because it makes her wake up exactly two AM. And she’ll be awake until five AM. You and I are in the same boat. I can’t take Quad, almost everyone can take it at night, I cannot take it at night, it actually wakes me up.

Jeff:                                       She also has a high kryptopyrroles, which she used to take a vitamin B supplement for, but she’s not currently doing that. On top of this, she goes through faces of a bit of … on top of this she goes through and faces insomnia, mood swings, and anxiety. Also, her dandruff has become severely worse. Her weight seems to be around her abdomen, arms, and thighs, not her face at all. So we suspect a lot of estrogen. But despite taking Alpha Venus for two months, nothing has changed.

Jeff:                                       Her weight is a big thing since her 40th this year, and she’d like to get back to normal before then. Any help would be amazing. We’ve run out of solutions. Love your products and your podcast. And the change you’re trying to create from it.

Matt:                                     Cool.

Jeff:                                       So Matty, what’s going on? She’s obviously got some great supplements there, but there’s some issues.

Matt:                                     No, there’s just not the right combo, actually. We’ll just change it around a little bit. But that’s cool. The funny thing is is when you’re looking at those kryptopyrroles, what that is, is it means that she doesn’t manufacture hemoglobin properly for some stupid reason. And body’s eliminating its waste in kryptopyrroles. But if they leave the body, they actually attach to B six and zinc. So it’s actually, it’s not just the B vitamins you need, it’s specifically B six, but more importantly zinc. The major problem with kryptopyrrolosis is zinc deficiency.

Matt:                                     Now, what’s interesting is zinc enzymes, so pregnancy and breastfeeding is the other major cause of zinc deficiency. And if you actually deplete your body’s zinc supplies, you can’t convert thyroid hormones properly, your insulin doesn’t work properly, your metabolism can’t possibly work. So, basically the first place I would be doing is loading up on zinc.

Matt:                                     I’ll tell you an interesting link with zinc, oh that rhymes. Anyway, an interesting link with zinc, is post natal depression as well. And other heavy metals. So what happens is zinc depletes, other things like leads and aluminum and that become more available and you can get, that can link into post natal depression and oxidative damage into tissue. So I would start off with a zed MSD and see if we can get this zinc up, and T432. Because when you’re burning, seriously after going through breastfeeding, going through everything, your metabolism should be cranking. Most people are losing weight through the breastfeeding phase.

Matt:                                     If you’re not, it’s possibly because your metabolism is holding out on you. It could be … the main cause, well the main two causes for averse T3 production is not enough calories, and zinc deficiency. So if we’ve gone low calorie and that sort of stuff, what I do, Zen MST, T432 plus, and keep going with the Amp and that sort of stuff, but we’ll get some multi food as well. And then we’ll just get this stuff loaded up and get that metabolism cranking, make sure that thyroid is capable of working. Other signs you might see with thyroid would be fluid retention syndrome, sensitivity to cold, dry hair, skin, nails, the shitty fingernails. Brittle and that sort of stuff. Losing eyebrow hair and numbness and that sort of stuff out in the extremities.

Matt:                                     Can you think of anything else, Steve?

Jeff:                                       Sorry, Steve I was just gonna add really quickly so you can comment as well too. 1200 calories a day is a very low calorie diet. Now we don’t have an understanding of Fred’s wife’s size. So we don’t know how tall or big she is.

Matt:                                     Overweight, it says here.

Jeff:                                       Yeah, but she might be five foot and overweight, or six foot and overweight. There’s a big difference there. So anyway, sorry Steve.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, talking about a really good diet and all whole foods. I don’t know exactly what that means. This would be a great time to put a ketogenic diet in there if she really wanted to move the weight.

Matt:                                     Or even, this is the other thing too, like what my wife did for example. Okay, so she ended up very similar. We had two kids really quickly.

Jeff:                                       Less than a year apart.

Matt:                                     Yeah, a year and three weeks apart. Yeah, so she was still breastfeeding when we fell pregnant with the second one.

Jeff:                                       That’s crazy.

Matt:                                     No, I know, super spent. But my wife was sort of a similar thing, but got up around 130 kilos. I don’t know what that is in pounds for the others, but .2 times that.

Steven Eddy:                      That’s 280.

Matt:                                     Yeah. So we dropped off 70 kilos in about six months. And what we basically did in that instance is we realized that she was busy all day and going, going, going all day. And struggling to get a nice, deep sleep. So what we did is early in the day, we kind of stayed low carb all day. So it was about depleting glycogen early through being a mum it’s pretty easily done. You just get up and go. Depleting glycogen early, staying low carb all day, and then we were back loading with whatever carbs we had allocated, we were back loading that at night, which was allowing her to have a nice deep sleep, getting that serotonin release, not being hungry kept the calories up, but it meant all day, insulin sensitive and burning fat. And then at night, you’re just reloading so you don’t go back into starvation mode.

Matt:                                     And we dropped off this 70 kilos in about six months now. We’ve gotta change her strategy now, because if you keep going the same thing all the time, it’s not gonna work. But so that’s the other way you could consider, just say when you’re talking about these healthy whole foods, so go either keto or low carb. Just saying, if you’re doing the back loader carbs at night, you won’t go full keto. Because you’re never gonna get that full glycogen depletion. But we’re still looking at Fred’s wife, she’s trying to perform, she’s trying to achieve all these things.

Matt:                                     So you don’t have to put that pressure on to go fully keto, because if you go that relatively low carb, we load you up on those supplements, it should work.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah, I eat sweet potatoes in the evenings, so that’s how I sorta get the carbs in, which is good.

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Steven Eddy:                      That’s what I eat now. So it’s good.

Matt:                                     Yeah.

Jeff:                                       Is that with TT432?

Steven Eddy:                      Yep.

Jeff:                                       It’s a good place to start. All right, Fred, let us know how you get on.

Jeff:                                       Last one. This one’s from Corrine. A little about me, I’m 47 years old, I work from home. Full time bookkeeper, plus a hair and makeup artist. I used to love the gym and used to love my body composition. Until four years ago, I was always sitting around 62 to 66 kilos lean, toned, but not sure of what my body’s fat levels may be about 20 to 22%.

Jeff:                                       Then I stopped working out due to health concerns, and got lazy and no motivation. I slowly put on body fat, and now would be about 35%. I weigh 77 and a half kilos. And I seem to hold my fat evenly over my entire body. I do not bloat often, and I can go from zero to six months prego in hours. After a few years of doctors not taking me seriously, a doctor finally found some issues with my live function.

Matt:                                     Liver, that’d be liver.

Jeff:                                       Liver, yeah. Was above the roof. Generally LFT’s are under 35 and in the 400s.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah it should be under 35 liver function test.

Jeff:                                       Right. Symptoms I have on any normal day, just basic duties. Any forms of exercise that I do takes me days to recover from. I’m exhausted. An example, I did two five kilometer jogs and a 45 minute boxing session in a seven day period, and it took me about nine days to get back to normal after the fatigue had set in. I went for more bloods, and found that I have two mutations, the MTHFRC677T, and A1298C. I’ve cut out just about all carbs and artificial sugars. I don’t drink carbonated sugar drinks, alcohol, or caffeine based drinks. I grow all my own vegetables, berries, raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, mulberries, cherries. Wow, yum. And some fruit. Orange, apples, limes, lemons, and avocados. I eat what I call a healthy diet of around 1000 to 1300 calories a day. Some days I don’t feel hungry, other days I’m starving all day no matter what I eat.

Jeff:                                       I walk twice a week. Five kilometers, I work in the garden every day for about one to two hours, tending my veggies, flowers, and doing the edges, moving dirt, building planter boxes et cetera, it’s moderate to heavy work. My libido has been low for about four years as well. Now to the point where I don’t care for it at all. Yet I’d love to be into sex again.

Jeff:                                       My husband, 46 year old, has a stressful office job, not much exercise at all. He’s tall and would be about 15 kilos overweight, mainly he holds the fat on his lower abs, back and neck. The rest of his body and arms are lean. He feels fatigued during the day and he’s able to work quite efficiently during the day. When he gets home at night, he’s usually very tired and by bedtime, he’s exhausted, but he still takes ages to fall asleep. He wakes up fairly early in the morning and I can’t sleep during the day.

Jeff:                                       His libido has always been low, yet when fired up, he’s a goer. Yet passed years, same as me, he can live without it and doesn’t miss it. Yet, he would love to be back in the groove like we were young again. Diet wise, he eats everything that I cook the same food as above, yet he does love his desserts at night. He does drink iced coffee besides that, we drink the same. He trains twice a week, cricket practice and walks five K’s with me twice a week. He’s active in the yard on the weekends, as we have a large 1.8 acre property. He does mowing and digging, and hard yard work. The ideal man.

Jeff:                                       Our goals to feel on top of the world, not to be tired, to drop the excess body fat, to exercise and have a good sex life again. Is that too much to ask for? Can you help? I personally have T432, but have not taken it for about six months. We both take no tablets for anything. I have a very bad reaction to morphine, will add liver specialist said that I do not have a fatty liver. I am not tolerant to dairy, I just need to eat/drink it in moderation. Some food combinations do not work well with my gut. I do like the sound of your Gutrite program and protocol. And that’s from Corrine.

Jeff:                                       So, again, and I’ll mention it again, very low calorie diet at 1000 to 1300 calories, that’s crazy light. But anyway, other than that I’ll turn it over to you guys.

Matt:                                     It will slow down your metabolism doing that sort of thing. So, what’s interesting about it is, going back to the start there, that liver function test is something weird going on there. For you to have raised liver enzymes like that. Now, just bear in mind that if you went and did a big exercise, the way you’re recovering from exercise badly. If you were to be doing a heap of exercise and then collect your blood the next day, certain amount of those liver function enzymes may be related to muscle damage. So just be aware of that. Don’t train and then give blood. If you want an accurate blood test.

Matt:                                     So just seeing if that was linked into that at all. But otherwise what we need to do is slow down that liver and workout and protect the liver a little bit. And we’ve got a product called Resilience that’s really good for that. Very powerful anti-inflammatory and antioxidant that actually can help to stop liver damage. It also goes really well if you were to do the Resilience with the Gutrite, as part of a Gutrite campaign.

Matt:                                     The first thing you do in these sort of instances, is you’ve gotta reboot the computer. You gotta get the Gutrite, and that will get the gut right.

Jeff:                                       Yeah.

Matt:                                     So basically get the Gutrite, do the Gutrite and Resilience, and I would throw in some Alpha Prime, because it’s all synergistic. Now, what’s a really interesting link there is that defect with methylation. Now methylation, a lot of people, we talk about methylation in regards to estrogen detoxification. But methylation is also really, really important when it comes to the movement of creatine and ATP generation in the body. You can’t replenish your creatine after it’s been depleted without the methylation process. And if you’ve got a methylation defect, you can’t regenerate in your rest period. So you know, when you go do your exercise, if you run a bit and then rest a bit, you should be able to regenerate. People sit there for 30 seconds between exercises, go again, that’s to regenerate. And that’s done through methylation conversion of precursors back into creatinol phosphates and stuff. So methylation is really important for that.

Matt:                                     Methylation is also important for DNA replication. Which is basically repair. Regeneration, repair. Protein synthesis. A lot of these sort of DOMS, which we’ve now nicknamed DOFS, because we’ve discovered it’s more fascia, there’s nothing really in there in regards to muscle pain, it’s all to do with the fascia and the connective tissue. A lot of that is regulated by estrogens and that sort of stuff. And so with the MTHFR gene polymorphisms, then we have a problem with the types of estrogen that’s in our body, and we get the wrong types of estrogen, like a lot of 16 alpha hydroxy E strain accumulates instead of the two methoxy or two alpha hydroxy, and that changes the way the receptors are hit.

Matt:                                     So for the estrogen receptor beta that lives in the fascia that does the regeneration and repair that requires good methylation for it to even exist, and then you need good methylation for that to occur. So you’re using something like the multi food, but in the Alpha Prime, which also can turn her into a sexual tyrannosaurus, also has the folates. So if we go for the Alpha Prime, and then did the Gutrite and the Resilience, we’re gonna get a good little, get stuff moving again. Just keep an eye on those liver function tests, don’t just stop and go, “Okay, so I don’t have fatty liver, so therefore this doesn’t exist.” Because you’ve got raised liver enzymes.

Matt:                                     So the next step might be to go, “Oh maybe it’s a fatty liver.” So then they look for the fatty liver, okay it’s not that. So you just need sometimes to remind the doctor, okay so remember raised liver enzymes, we checked for fatty liver, it wasn’t fatty liver. Are the liver enzymes still raised, and if so, what’s the cause? Do you potentially have gall bladder issues, there’s further testing that should be done. It could be a virus. So, look into those. Or it could be relating to methylation defects. So, because you need methylate for detox. So it’s a tricky one.

Matt:                                     But I don’t like when people see that they’ve got some alarm bells like that ringing and they get a certain amount down to a diagnosis where it’s not that. And then they’re left with a scenario where they still don’t know what it is. Because that’s when we go back later and then say, “Oh, no I used herbs.” And then they say, “Oh it was the herb or medicine.”

Matt:                                     So for the husband, it’s a very similar protocol in the sense that why not everyone do the Gutrite and Resilience. So do the Gutrite and Resilience, the whole house just get a whole kickstart, go their low carb. Now the diet that goes with that, it’s just avoiding complex carbs. So most of those foods you mentioned that you grow in your own yard, we would never tell you to stop eating amazing fruit and vegetables out of your own garden. The things to avoid in that was more the breads and cereals and grains that you don’t need. Eat all those wonderful foods and load up on that Gutrite and Resilience and do it, and then get the husband onto the Mars and the Prime as well. Do the stack together, do two Mars in the morning, two Mars at night, and then you do your Prime two and two as well.

Matt:                                     If you start to lose focus at work and that, just do it all at night.

Jeff:                                       So can we throw some Zeta MST in for the husband?

Matt:                                     Oh that’s probably a good idea, he will need that for work.

Jeff:                                       I love it, the Zeta MST is fantastic with the Mars and the Prime for him as well too?

Matt:                                     Yep.

Jeff:                                       Yep.

Steven Eddy:                      And what about T432 for thyroid or anything like that?

Matt:                                     Very good idea.

Steven Eddy:                      Yeah? That’s the only other one I thought of, but everything you said about the gut is true. It’s insane.

Matt:                                     Yeah, I’m always so bloody nervous about loading up too much stuff when I see raised liver enzymes, because I just know, they go through and go, okay this person’s got … first of all you’ve gotta convince your doctor you’re not an alcoholic. And no matter what you say, they’re gonna keep testing and assume you’re an alcoholic for a period of time. Then they’ll go and look for something else like a fatty liver and such like that. We then need to go further and work out what it actually is.

Matt:                                     And I’m so nervous, because they’re. “Oh there’s a herb. It’s that.”

Jeff:                                       Matt, you took the words out of my mouth. The amount of times where we’ve had feedback form customers and all the rest of us, going I’ve gone to see my doctor, here’s the problem, looking for a solution, as soon as I mention that I’m on a supplement, sometimes without even disclosing what it is, “Oh, that’s it.” It’s like, I’m taking a supplement, so therefore that’s the reason why I’ve got this, that.

Matt:                                     And then you look at a supplement like Gutrite. Cranberry, my brains going blank. It’s cranberry and the rosemary, and all these other food. Cinnamon, and garlic. Not garlic, but cinnamon and ginger. So those things in a supplement, everyone’s going through going, oh my gosh. They don’t even ask what did you eat in a day.

Jeff:                                       So good. I had one in there before like, you can’t work with some of these people it’s like, took the Gutrite and some people are talking about some people are gonna get a healing process, some people aren’t. A lot of it comes down to how you are as an individual. Which is why a lot of times you see people go, “I took this product,” and not just our brand, whatever brand, “and I got great results and my friend got nothing, what are you talking about, you must be lying.” No, no. Everybody’s different. Everybody’s got different stuff going on. And it’s like yeah I took the Gutrite and got really sick. And it’s like, either way, you can’t win either way.

Matt:                                     Exactly, I felt nothing therefore it didn’t work. But I feel amazing. But I didn’t get a healing process. And then other people, it made me sick. That’s what we told you was gonna happen.

Jeff:                                       You just feel like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes. Anyway. We’re coming for you.

Jeff:                                       Guys, we have run out of time. Anything else?

Matt:                                     Shit, you scared the hell out of me. The helicopters come, guys. Run.

Jeff:                                       Anything else?

Steven Eddy:                      No, I think we’re good. There’s quite a great day. We talked about endurance exercise, get out there and hit the pavement, do it.

Jeff:                                       No, don’t.

Matt:                                     That’s a marathon runner.

Jeff:                                       All right guys, thanks very much. We’ll be back next week with some more.

Speaker 3:                           Thanks for listening, and remember, question everything. Well, except what we say.


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